The Official English Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

Slade is overwhelmingly a 13 - 95% of his matches I'd wager. You could argue that Marchant is a Centre/Wing.

All rather moot anyway as the added benefits I was referring to was the synergy he would have with Smith. Seems a waste to ignore it and select a player in poor form instead

Okay but "Like for like" is rarely just about the shirt number and the point I was making was about how different they are as players but that's okay.

And yes of course Danty will be running at him all day. That's the game. It's up to Smith to do what he can and up to his teammates to ensure their biggest runner isn't getting a free shot at our smallest player every time.

Happily, even if Marcus misses a few tackles - guaranteed to happen - that won't be defining whether England win or lose, or whether he has a good game or not

[Paddington Bear]

Jonathan Danty is going to be running at Marcus Smith all day.

He’s got to go out to the wing in defence as he often seems to do at Quins. Got to assume they’ve planned for this, and the suggestion is Manu was in the training squad to simulate Danty

[Kawazaki]

Jonathan Danty is going to be running at Marcus Smith all day.

He’s got to go out to the wing in defence as he often seems to do at Quins. Got to assume they’ve planned for this, and the suggestion is Manu was in the training squad to simulate Danty

Not sure hiding works. To be honest, it doesn't really matter who plays at 10 for England, Danty would still cause problems. He's basically a very good Nonu tribute act.

[JM2K6]

Yup, he's going to be a real handful. Of course, he'll have his hands full defending against Smith and Lawrence, so it's not all bad.

[inactionman]

Saints vs Bath on BT Sport at 7:45, just in case anyone wants their evening ruining.

[SaintK]

Saints vs Bath on BT Sport at 7:45, just in case anyone wants their evening ruining.

Bath by 40 if Saints play like they did against Bristol!!!
Just read that Barbeary requires an op on his knee following his injury last week. However the report said he did not suffer any ligament damage so hopefully we'll see him again before end of the season.

[sockwithaticket]

Saints vs Bath on BT Sport at 7:45, just in case anyone wants their evening ruining.

I'm opting for the U20s instead.

[inactionman]

Saints vs Bath on BT Sport at 7:45, just in case anyone wants their evening ruining.

Bath by 40 if Saints play like they did against Bristol!!!
Just read that Barbeary requires an op on his knee following his injury last week. However the report said he did not suffer any ligament damage so hopefully we'll see him again before end of the season.

He really can't catch a break, poor sod. Underhill also injured. Which makes Ted Hill's absence more interesting, as I didn't think he was crocked but isn't in the squad.

Piers Francis also out due to concussion, so he misses the chance to remind Northampton exactly why they didn't play him at 10.

Overall not a bad Bath squad, although not sure why Van Velze is starting at lock when we have a lock or two on the bench.

We've at least run teams close this season - losing a few on last kicks of matches, rather than being dead and buried by half time. That's my straw and I'm going to clutch at it.

[inactionman]

Saints vs Bath on BT Sport at 7:45, just in case anyone wants their evening ruining.

I'm opting for the U20s instead.

You'd be wise to, frankly.

[Oxbow]

Saints have gone with just about the best side they can put out given all the absentees. Really we should be beating the bottom club at home fairly convincingly, but it's Saints, so, you know.

[inactionman]

Don't worry, Bath will hand it to you.

Utter garbage box kick to concede a penalty. Mind you, didn't think Dunn changed his line as much as speeded up for second penalty .
Bath need to stop the shit kicking, that's all it's been.

[Oxbow]

A couple of nice tries aside, bit of a cripple fight so far.

[Random1]

Under 20s getting mangled.

[Oxbow]

Finished 45 -26. Bath were poor in the second half but still managed to get a bonus point because Saints can't defend driving mauls for shit.

[sockwithaticket]

Saints vs Bath on BT Sport at 7:45, just in case anyone wants their evening ruining.

I'm opting for the U20s instead.

You'd be wise to, frankly.

As it transpires I probably would've had a better time with the Prem game. Haven't seen our baby orcs look that abject in a while.

[Hal Jordan]

Poor crop this year?

[sockwithaticket]

They've been decent in the other games, albeit sloppy and a bit harum-scarum.

Afaik a lot of these guys are in their first year of this age group and so there aren't many of them with senior rugby experience. Whereas (I gather from the reddit match thread) quite a lot of the French side are tested in the Top14 fairly regularly.

[Ovals]

They've been decent in the other games, albeit sloppy and a bit harum-scarum.

Afaik a lot of these guys are in their first year of this age group and so there aren't many of them with senior rugby experience. Whereas (I gather from the reddit match thread) quite a lot of the French side are tested in the Top14 fairly regularly.

Yep - they've played a bit frenetically - still surprised how easily they were beaten - but there's stil good forward potential in the tight 5. The younger Chessum is massive and an excellent prospect.

[Torquemada 1420]

They've been decent in the other games, albeit sloppy and a bit harum-scarum.

Afaik a lot of these guys are in their first year of this age group and so there aren't many of them with senior rugby experience. Whereas (I gather from the reddit match thread) quite a lot of the French side are tested in the Top14 fairly regularly.

Not as many as in the earlier rounds and some are only 19 too. Eng were dire.

[SaintK]

Finished 45 -26. Bath were poor in the second half but still managed to get a bonus point because Saints can't defend driving mauls for shit.

If Vass is still defence coach at Saints, they need to replace him asap.They've been dire defensively all season

[Raggs]

They've been decent in the other games, albeit sloppy and a bit harum-scarum.

Afaik a lot of these guys are in their first year of this age group and so there aren't many of them with senior rugby experience. Whereas (I gather from the reddit match thread) quite a lot of the French side are tested in the Top14 fairly regularly.

Think they dropped the ball over the tryline 2-3 times, got done for a double movement that I don't understand (it was a maul, so he can't be tackled, if he was tackled, he certainly wasn't held and got straight back to his feet). The 10 also dropped the ball 2-3 times. French defence was really impressive (so was some of their attack), but it wouldn't have taken much for the scoreline to look very different early on (And then the crazy stuff at the end wouldn't have happened either).

[Ovals]

They've been decent in the other games, albeit sloppy and a bit harum-scarum.

Afaik a lot of these guys are in their first year of this age group and so there aren't many of them with senior rugby experience. Whereas (I gather from the reddit match thread) quite a lot of the French side are tested in the Top14 fairly regularly.

Think they dropped the ball over the tryline 2-3 times, got done for a double movement that I don't understand (it was a maul, so he can't be tackled, if he was tackled, he certainly wasn't held and got straight back to his feet). The 10 also dropped the ball 2-3 times. French defence was really impressive (so was some of their attack), but it wouldn't have taken much for the scoreline to look very different early on (And then the crazy stuff at the end wouldn't have happened either).

Very true - they could easily have been in the lead at HT - I couldn't understand why the try was disallowed. Thereafer they were chasing the game a and were well beaten in the end. Their defence has been pretty ropey in all of the games and fell apart in the last 1/4.

The referee didn't seem to be penalisiing offsides.................

[Raggs]

Overall whilst it was massively disappointing, I'd rather a game lost with that many close calls and near breaks, played at a rapid pace and looking to move the ball, then simple grind it out rugby. They're developing and honing skills for when it does count.

[tc27]

Seniors showing tue U20s how its done.

Might have to check out of the rugby press for a while the inevitable 'bring back Farrel' from Stephen Jones et al will be worse than this reaming.

[Paddington Bear]

Steward did pretty well, likewise Chessum. Itoje had a couple of decent moments and Mitchell did try at least. Smith never gave up. Otherwise that was so far below acceptable I don’t know where to begin, at least a couple who should never wear the shirt again.

Humiliating stuff, people paid the best part of £200 to watch that. Thankfully I didn’t leave the sofa and was basically laughing at the end. One more competitive match until the WC

[tc27]

Just depressing..alot of players I felt positive about were awful today and we were just taken to the cleaners physically.

I hope this is rockk bottom but Ireland in Dublin to come..

[Margin__Walker]

Said on the other thread that I make that England's worst ever defeat. The only two worst by margin were severely understrength touring teams to OZ (98) and SA (07). This one was full strength at home.

As good as France were, that was a seriously bad performance. You'll always get the backlash after a loss like that against specific selection decisions, but it surely goes deeper that that.

[JM2K6]

On balance, that could've gone better and I'm quite disappointed. I'm sure we trained very well in the week so it's pure bad luck we lost that match.













Christ alive that was genuinely incompetent practically across the board.

[Margin__Walker]

I don't even know where you begin to try and fix that with Ireland next up.

Thought Itoje was a nuisance and didn't concede dumb pens (well maybe just one). How's that for positivity...

[Paddington Bear]

Borthwick will get shit for not playing Faz but I think it’s hard to pin anything that has just happened on selection. Our backrow had been pretty dominant the last couple of games, totally manshamed today. Front row were outclassed. When that happens and you concede after 2 mins you’re never going to win. We then compounded that by awful execution.
I’ve already said we should have kicked all three of the first 30 minute penalties in their half but even accounting for our decisions on the first two there’s no excuse for the shocking execution in their 22.
Not entirely sure where we go from here. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth, and I suspect Ireland will do exactly that again.

[Margin__Walker]

Ideally this game will stop the endless debates about Smith/Farrell dominating the discourse. Sure it's a question, but there are so many more issues out there.

[sockwithaticket]

Where do you even begin to start fixing things when your first choice pack was just comprehensively bullied like that?

This performance limbo'd under my pessimistic take on where England are.

We may still make the quarters at the world cup because we've a reasonable group, but we'll do nothing against serious opposition. May as well write it off and use every test between now and the next 6N to try and improve performance.

[Brazil]

That was as pure an example of what happens when one pack gets the ascendency. The French pack couldn't put a foot wrong where's England were terribly disjointed.

Itoje, curry and ludlam went well. Steward was solid. The nines were poor. Smith was living off scraps. Outside backs didn't get a look in. It should be Slade's last test.

[Paddington Bear]

JVP certainly has questions to answer about how he performs against the top 4 teams, there were moments reminiscent of the ABs game.

Think it is hard though to look beyond that being an absolute up front manshaming that absolutely exhausted our guys.

[JM2K6]

My problem is the pack isn't the only issue there, everyone had the same disease. Bizarre just how far off the pace we are. We were ten points down because Slade absolutely shit the bed twice in the first five minutes or something. Players were making error after error no matter what position. They looked not just poorly prepared, but actually surprised to be playing a game of rugby at all. It was a genuinely appalling shitshow from 1-23 with a few exceptions and I just don't know if it's a reflection of the squad, the training, the preparation, the attitude, the lack of management experience, complacency, or what.

I think this is the first time I've seen us humiliated where I didn't have major unhappiness with selection before the game or considered us in a bad position to begin with. I liked where our pack was headed. Turns out it was in a circle. How we pick that team and get hammered that badly at the breakdown and look so poorly under skilled all round is completely beyond me.

Time will tell if this was a turning point or a sign of what's to come.

[sockwithaticket]

JVP certainly has questions to answer about how he performs against the top 4 teams, there were moments reminiscent of the ABs game.

Think it is hard though to look beyond that being an absolute up front manshaming that absolutely exhausted our guys.

I struggle to be too harsh on him because he's still only 21 and should probably only be coming on for the last 15 - 20 to do his apprenticeship rather than steering the ship. However, thanks to a certain departed dwarf, we have zero depth at 9 and so all we've got unless we want to recall the declining Youngs are young and inexperienced (or a combination of both) 9s coming on trying to do their best in a rebuilding team. They are going to make mistakes and look out of place at times. Whether it's JVP, Mitchell, Quirke or Randall, they've not really played any seriously high pressure games for their clubs, so it can't be easy to adjust for what the best sides in the world bring.

We might wish that they were better, but they're the best we've got.

[petej]

That was as pure an example of what happens when one pack gets the ascendency. The French pack couldn't put a foot wrong where's England were terribly disjointed.

Itoje, curry and ludlam went well. Steward was solid. The nines were poor. Smith was living off scraps. Outside backs didn't get a look in. It should be Slade's last test.

I thought Chessum was alright as well.

A lot of the less experienced players should have 10-20 caps more at this point. While some experienced guys should have less (Youngs being the most obvious example).

[JM2K6]

Ludlam gave away three braindead penalties and didn't get close to making any impact on their ball.

This is the best back row we've ever selected when it comes to work at the breakdown and, well, it didn't look like that today.

[tc27]

Ludlam gave away three braindead penalties and didn't get close to making any impact on their ball.

This is the best back row we've ever selected when it comes to work at the breakdown and, well, it didn't look like that today.

This is the issue..theres no obvious selection fix here. Before the game I think most us were happy with the backrow.

[el capitan]

Yep I'd think that has to be a real contender for worst ever defeat/performance. Absolutely humiliated throughout, in every aspect, across the pitch.

In terms of the team there is so much to put right - The ruck, whether that's the actual breakdown or the 9 controlling the ball. The set piece isn't great still. Defence is passive and porous. Attack is confused and chaotic. We lack accuracy. We lack control. We lack discipline. There is simply a lot on the ' to do list'.

Agree though that the crux of the issue goes beyond individuals. English rugby needs to take a hard look at itself and it's development of players. Others might disagree, but personally I think we're being left behind by others. The French and Irish cattle just seem to be of a different pedigree to ours currently - stronger, faster, they can play quicker, carry harder, hit harder, more disciplined, more accurate in their play and continue this over phases, better structured, better control... And I haven't even mentioned the Rugby skills..... Maybe it's a reflection of our struggling national team right now not being an ideal place for players to come into, but other systems seem to be doing better in preparing their guys and bridging the gap to the standards of test rugby.