The Official English Rugby Thread

[Oxbow]

Exeter have to rebuild, they have lost so many key players.
Hogg is going as well. (rumoured retirement)

Not a rumour any more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65090358

[Hal Jordan]

Exeter need to go into what NFL pundits call "burn it down" territory.

Yeah this is my thinking. Baxter's methods seemed stale a couple of years ago and the side he brought through are all leaving.

My mate was talking with Sam Skinner at an Edinburgh training session. Skinner told him that everything at Exeter was beginning to feel old and stale once they won the ERC and the Premiership. Same faces leading them and coaching them and that there was little or no change to their playing style or game devlopment.

Coaching teams have a natural lifespan. One of the reasons Sir Alex Ferguson was so successful was because he moved away from the day to day coaching, and changed the coaches on a fairly regular basis. He was also utterly lacking in sentiment towards his players, and moved them on as soon as they had served their purpose (or started to be a distraction). And he reinforced every season.

[Jim Lahey]

Sir Alex is the biggest exception to the rule of the lifespan of coaches tbf. Wenger revolutionised Arsenal, oversaw the Invinsible's season etc., but he left the club about 5 or 6 years too late, having never truely replaced the cornerstones of his successful teams like Viera.

Exeter looked like a tired old team at Bath. No bosh from the likes of Ewers, Sam Skinner was quiet, the 10 who's name escapes me that has gotten a few stupid YCs for Farrell-esque tackling is bang-average, Nowell is done, Ollie Woodburn (a normally composed player) looked out of his depth, Hodge at 15 had a shocker etc.

Too many big hitters not firing, and the likes of LCD and Hogg being injured. And Ian Whitten (tbf a player that has squeezed every last drop of his limited talent out of himself over the years) still usually on the teamsheet.

I've always had a soft spot for Exeter and Baxter but its probably best for the club that he moves on at this stage.

[charltom]

Exeter looked like a tired old team at Bath. No bosh from the likes of Ewers, Sam Skinner was quiet

Sorry... Sam Skinner of Edinburgh was quiet in Bath vs. Exeter?

I should hope so too!

[duke]

Sir Alex is the biggest exception to the rule of the lifespan of coaches tbf. Wenger revolutionised Arsenal, oversaw the Invinsible's season etc., but he left the club about 5 or 6 years too late, having never truely replaced the cornerstones of his successful teams like Viera.

Exeter looked like a tired old team at Bath. No bosh from the likes of Ewers, Sam Skinner was quiet, the 10 who's name escapes me that has gotten a few stupid YCs for Farrell-esque tackling is bang-average, Nowell is done, Ollie Woodburn (a normally composed player) looked out of his depth, Hodge at 15 had a shocker etc.

Too many big hitters not firing, and the likes of LCD and Hogg being injured. And Ian Whitten (tbf a player that has squeezed every last drop of his limited talent out of himself over the years) still usually on the teamsheet.

I've always had a soft spot for Exeter and Baxter but its probably best for the club that he moves on at this stage.

Harvey Skinner is the 10 and he's at least a level below Joe Simmonds (brother of Sam....). I can't fathom why he's playing ahead of Joe.

Agree with much of what you said re Sunday - the Exeter fans at the game were very downbeat about their chances for a change. They have no real power in the forwards and it was the first pack that Bath have beaten up for a long while. It made for much better viewing from my perspective.

One other point, Ted Hill and Ollie Lawrence have made a massive contribution to Bath, we are exceptionally fortunate to have them.

[inactionman]

Sir Alex is the biggest exception to the rule of the lifespan of coaches tbf. Wenger revolutionised Arsenal, oversaw the Invinsible's season etc., but he left the club about 5 or 6 years too late, having never truely replaced the cornerstones of his successful teams like Viera.

Exeter looked like a tired old team at Bath. No bosh from the likes of Ewers, Sam Skinner was quiet, the 10 who's name escapes me that has gotten a few stupid YCs for Farrell-esque tackling is bang-average, Nowell is done, Ollie Woodburn (a normally composed player) looked out of his depth, Hodge at 15 had a shocker etc.

Too many big hitters not firing, and the likes of LCD and Hogg being injured. And Ian Whitten (tbf a player that has squeezed every last drop of his limited talent out of himself over the years) still usually on the teamsheet.

I've always had a soft spot for Exeter and Baxter but its probably best for the club that he moves on at this stage.

Harvey Skinner is the 10 and he's at least a level below Joe Simmonds (brother of Sam....). I can't fathom why he's playing ahead of Joe.

Agree with much of what you said re Sunday - the Exeter fans at the game were very downbeat about their chances for a change. They have no real power in the forwards and it was the first pack that Bath have beaten up for a long while. It made for much better viewing from my perspective.

One other point, Ted Hill and Ollie Lawrence have made a massive contribution to Bath, we are exceptionally fortunate to have them.

Agreed - they've both been excellent, we are indeed lucky to have them but still a bit gutted over the circumstances.

It feels like Bath have real options - a backrow with messers Hill and Underhill, centre combinations of Lawrence, JJ, Redpath, Ojomoh - which gives me some optimism for the future, although I have made that observation before...

[sockwithaticket]

Exeter looked like a tired old team at Bath. No bosh from the likes of Ewers, Sam Skinner was quiet

Sorry... Sam Skinner of Edinburgh was quiet in Bath vs. Exeter?

I should hope so too!

Presume he meant Simmonds.

[sockwithaticket]

Sir Alex is the biggest exception to the rule of the lifespan of coaches tbf. Wenger revolutionised Arsenal, oversaw the Invinsible's season etc., but he left the club about 5 or 6 years too late, having never truely replaced the cornerstones of his successful teams like Viera.

Exeter looked like a tired old team at Bath. No bosh from the likes of Ewers, Sam Skinner was quiet, the 10 who's name escapes me that has gotten a few stupid YCs for Farrell-esque tackling is bang-average, Nowell is done, Ollie Woodburn (a normally composed player) looked out of his depth, Hodge at 15 had a shocker etc.

Too many big hitters not firing, and the likes of LCD and Hogg being injured. And Ian Whitten (tbf a player that has squeezed every last drop of his limited talent out of himself over the years) still usually on the teamsheet.

I've always had a soft spot for Exeter and Baxter but its probably best for the club that he moves on at this stage.

Harvey Skinner is the 10 and he's at least a level below Joe Simmonds (brother of Sam....). I can't fathom why he's playing ahead of Joe.

Agree with much of what you said re Sunday - the Exeter fans at the game were very downbeat about their chances for a change. They have no real power in the forwards and it was the first pack that Bath have beaten up for a long while. It made for much better viewing from my perspective.

One other point, Ted Hill and Ollie Lawrence have made a massive contribution to Bath, we are exceptionally fortunate to have them.

Earlier in the season he was in better form than Simmonds and now it's been announced that Simmonds is off, I guess they're maximising Skinner's game time.

[Jim Lahey]

Exeter looked like a tired old team at Bath. No bosh from the likes of Ewers, Sam Skinner was quiet

Sorry... Sam Skinner of Edinburgh was quiet in Bath vs. Exeter?

I should hope so too!

Doh!
Simmonds.

[SaintK]

Mike Brown has signed a contract extension at Tigers to cover next season....good for him!
Ollie Hassell-Collins confirms he's leaving L Irish for Tigers next season

[sockwithaticket]

Mike Brown has signed a contract extension at Tigers to cover next season....good for him!
Ollie Hassell-Collins confirms he's leaving L Irish for Tigers next season

Yep. Given a shot, he's proved himself right that he's still up to it.

[inactionman]

Mike Brown has signed a contract extension at Tigers to cover next season....good for him!
Ollie Hassell-Collins confirms he's leaving L Irish for Tigers next season

That seems a curious move to me - he's just broken into England squad and LI are pretty much neck and neck with Tigers. What's' behind that?

Tigers seem happy to snap up (presumably) pricey wingers.

[sockwithaticket]

Mike Brown has signed a contract extension at Tigers to cover next season....good for him!
Ollie Hassell-Collins confirms he's leaving L Irish for Tigers next season

That seems a curious move to me - he's just broken into England squad and LI are pretty much neck and neck with Tigers. What's' behind that?

Tigers seem happy to snap up (presumably) pricey wingers.

It's been rumoured for months, presumably it was done and dusted before recent events.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, was done and dusted months ago.

Just being announced now.

Cracking player, good luck to him. Shame to lose him, but back three is a position where losing key players tends to hurt us a little less. Both Loader and Cinti who have been superb in this current run have renewed recently.

[sockwithaticket]

Yeah, was done and dusted months ago.

Just being announced now.

Cracking player, good luck to him. Shame to lose him, but back three is a position where losing key players tends to hurt us a little less. Both Loader and Cinti who have been superb in this current run have renewed recently.

Rowe and Dykes are both injured, are they due to be sticking with you guys?

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, was done and dusted months ago.

Just being announced now.

Cracking player, good luck to him. Shame to lose him, but back three is a position where losing key players tends to hurt us a little less. Both Loader and Cinti who have been superb in this current run have renewed recently.

Rowe and Dykes are both injured, are they due to be sticking with you guys?

Dykes is last year of academy. Expect both him and Harmes, who has been less visible, but is also decent to be offered senior deals. Not sure if Rowe is still in contract next year after his ACL injury. Hope he is though as he was so good pre injury, you'd want to back him to get back to that level.

Also loosely rumoured to have signed Tom Collins from Saints, with Stokes potentially on the way out.

[SaintK]

Yeah, was done and dusted months ago.

Just being announced now.

Cracking player, good luck to him. Shame to lose him, but back three is a position where losing key players tends to hurt us a little less. Both Loader and Cinti who have been superb in this current run have renewed recently.

Rowe and Dykes are both injured, are they due to be sticking with you guys?

Dykes is last year of academy. Expect both him and Harmes, who has been less visible, but is also decent to be offered senior deals. Not sure if Rowe is still in contract next year after his ACL injury. Hope he is though as he was so good pre injury, you'd want to back him to get back to that level.

Also loosely rumoured to have signed Tom Collins from Saints, with Stokes potentially on the way out.

I hope not. Especially with Skosan on the way out

[Oxbow]

Rowe and Dykes are both injured, are they due to be sticking with you guys?

Dykes is last year of academy. Expect both him and Harmes, who has been less visible, but is also decent to be offered senior deals. Not sure if Rowe is still in contract next year after his ACL injury. Hope he is though as he was so good pre injury, you'd want to back him to get back to that level.

Also loosely rumoured to have signed Tom Collins from Saints, with Stokes potentially on the way out.

I hope not. Especially with Skosan on the way out

Second that. Collins seems to be undervalued by Saints, never really understood why.

[JM2K6]

Sir Alex is the biggest exception to the rule of the lifespan of coaches tbf. Wenger revolutionised Arsenal, oversaw the Invinsible's season etc., but he left the club about 5 or 6 years too late, having never truely replaced the cornerstones of his successful teams like Viera.

Exeter looked like a tired old team at Bath. No bosh from the likes of Ewers, Sam Skinner was quiet, the 10 who's name escapes me that has gotten a few stupid YCs for Farrell-esque tackling is bang-average, Nowell is done, Ollie Woodburn (a normally composed player) looked out of his depth, Hodge at 15 had a shocker etc.

Too many big hitters not firing, and the likes of LCD and Hogg being injured. And Ian Whitten (tbf a player that has squeezed every last drop of his limited talent out of himself over the years) still usually on the teamsheet.

I've always had a soft spot for Exeter and Baxter but its probably best for the club that he moves on at this stage.

Hodge has had a breakthrough season and is very clearly a big part of their future. When fit, Woodburn's been excellent. People read too much into single performances tbh. If them having poor games is a sign of incurable rot, why isn't their collection of fine performances this season a sign that things are rosy?

[Kawazaki]

London Irish reported to be in financial trouble. Players and staff might not get paid...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -week.html

[Paddington Bear]

London Irish reported to be in financial trouble. Players and staff might not get paid...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -week.html

Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong but Crossan seems pretty disingenuous when he goes on about 'giving away Irish for free', AIUI they can buy the club for £1 but need to commit to paying off his debts? So the price is c.£25m+1

[SaintK]

London Irish reported to be in financial trouble. Players and staff might not get paid...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -week.html

Crossan been trying to get out for a while!
Falcons not in good shape either. Would be disastrous if there was only one Prem club in the North of England. Premiership heading for ameltdown!!!

Newcastle Falcons have denied suggestions that the club’s recent cost-cutting is paving the way to voluntarily drop out of the Premiership next year.
City A.M. has learned of a growing belief in English rugby that the Tyneside team could be looking to ease their financial situation by joining the Championship as part of a wider shake-up of the domestic game.

https://www.cityam.com/premiership-ru ... egation/

[Kawazaki]

If we are being brutal, it wouldn't be a disaster if London Irish went belly up. Clearly, it would be terrible for their fans and staff who lost jobs etc but from an English rugby strategic situation, I doubt it would impact too much as long as Quins significantly up their game and continue the fantastic work that the LI academy does. It would leave Saracens in north London and Quins in South London which is probably enough. There's an opportunity in east London but that's a big maybe for the future.

I suspect the Premiership will be 10 teams soon although I can even see it going down to 8. Losing Newcastle would be bad, much worse than losing London Irish. Unfortunately, a total lack of leadership and vision from the RFU means these changes happen through atrophy and failure rather than via any strategic planning.

[Paddington Bear]

I'm very surprised Irish are struggling to the extent they allegedly are. Crowds have been decent enough, the "package" they are offering is pretty attractive from style of play to location onwards and there's plenty of low hanging fruit for increasing their crowds further. Obviously lack the underlying asset but they really shouldn't be having huge issues.

Newcastle I'd agree are important for the Prem but you can see why they struggle much more. No doubt the other clubs aren't helping either of them much, in their desperation to get a 10 team structure.

[JM2K6]

I'm very surprised Irish are struggling to the extent they allegedly are. Crowds have been decent enough, the "package" they are offering is pretty attractive from style of play to location onwards and there's plenty of low hanging fruit for increasing their crowds further. Obviously lack the underlying asset but they really shouldn't be having huge issues.

Newcastle I'd agree are important for the Prem but you can see why they struggle much more. No doubt the other clubs aren't helping either of them much, in their desperation to get a 10 team structure.

Ticket sales simply aren't enough - the cost of running a club, the player wage bill, and the impact from Covid have hugely damaged most clubs financial state. It's been a very long time since clubs were getting close to breaking even and there's only a handful of sides who are actually financially secure thanks to big money backers. The sad fact is that most sides are at risk.

[Paddington Bear]

I'm very surprised Irish are struggling to the extent they allegedly are. Crowds have been decent enough, the "package" they are offering is pretty attractive from style of play to location onwards and there's plenty of low hanging fruit for increasing their crowds further. Obviously lack the underlying asset but they really shouldn't be having huge issues.

Newcastle I'd agree are important for the Prem but you can see why they struggle much more. No doubt the other clubs aren't helping either of them much, in their desperation to get a 10 team structure.

Ticket sales simply aren't enough - the cost of running a club, the player wage bill, and the impact from Covid have hugely damaged most clubs financial state. It's been a very long time since clubs were getting close to breaking even and there's only a handful of sides who are actually financially secure thanks to big money backers. The sad fact is that most sides are at risk.

I get all that, I'm very surprised and pretty curious at the gates sides that are in trouble are drawing (Worcester for example were always going to be struggling). These tickets aren't cheap either.

[JM2K6]

I'm very surprised Irish are struggling to the extent they allegedly are. Crowds have been decent enough, the "package" they are offering is pretty attractive from style of play to location onwards and there's plenty of low hanging fruit for increasing their crowds further. Obviously lack the underlying asset but they really shouldn't be having huge issues.

Newcastle I'd agree are important for the Prem but you can see why they struggle much more. No doubt the other clubs aren't helping either of them much, in their desperation to get a 10 team structure.

Ticket sales simply aren't enough - the cost of running a club, the player wage bill, and the impact from Covid have hugely damaged most clubs financial state. It's been a very long time since clubs were getting close to breaking even and there's only a handful of sides who are actually financially secure thanks to big money backers. The sad fact is that most sides are at risk.

I get all that, I'm very surprised and pretty curious at the gates sides that are in trouble are drawing (Worcester for example were always going to be struggling). These tickets aren't cheap either.

I guess the point is is that most sides are in trouble, really - it's just these two are the most in trouble. Quins have just jacked up ticket prices an insane amount to try and dig themselves out of the hole, pissing off existing fans in the hope that there's enough wannabe STHs to make up the shortfall. Unfortunately even that isn't going to be enough to halt the slide. Ultimately with CVC taking their slice, Covid debts (including repayments to the govt) and the loss of some RFU money, the unsustainable nature of Premiership wage bills has gone into red alert territory. Which is fine for those few clubs who can confidently continue to throw money on the bonfire but for everyone else it's an existential threat.

Everyone seems a bit head-in-the-sand over this.

[Paddington Bear]

Ticket sales simply aren't enough - the cost of running a club, the player wage bill, and the impact from Covid have hugely damaged most clubs financial state. It's been a very long time since clubs were getting close to breaking even and there's only a handful of sides who are actually financially secure thanks to big money backers. The sad fact is that most sides are at risk.

I get all that, I'm very surprised and pretty curious at the gates sides that are in trouble are drawing (Worcester for example were always going to be struggling). These tickets aren't cheap either.

I guess the point is is that most sides are in trouble, really - it's just these two are the most in trouble. Quins have just jacked up ticket prices an insane amount to try and dig themselves out of the hole, pissing off existing fans in the hope that there's enough wannabe STHs to make up the shortfall. Unfortunately even that isn't going to be enough to halt the slide. Ultimately with CVC taking their slice, Covid debts (including repayments to the govt) and the loss of some RFU money, the unsustainable nature of Premiership wage bills has gone into red alert territory. Which is fine for those few clubs who can confidently continue to throw money on the bonfire but for everyone else it's an existential threat.

Everyone seems a bit head-in-the-sand over this.

Yeah I've seen a lot of discussion around Quins' pricing for next season. 'This will turn the Stoop into a City boys' day out' was my personal highlight - is anyone planning on telling him?!
More seriously Prem rugby is already an expensive day out for the most part - for me it's why I don't go to tonnes of Sarries games despite living reasonably locally to Barnet. I can't justify tickets + BT, and BT gives me more of what I'm looking for is my judgment.

[Paddington Bear]

Sounds increasingly like the Irish takeover rumours are legit, with the American consortium allegedly paying this month's wages.
With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

Also incidentally as I read some of the stuff on Irish it is sometimes easy to forget the absolute visceral hate a section of football fans have for rugby, the amount of Brentford fans out there saying pretty vile stuff is staggering, not least given they're a club whose future has not always been certain.

[Margin__Walker]

Sounds increasingly like the Irish takeover rumours are legit, with the American consortium allegedly paying this month's wages.
With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

Also incidentally as I read some of the stuff on Irish it is sometimes easy to forget the absolute visceral hate a section of football fans have for rugby, the amount of Brentford fans out there saying pretty vile stuff is staggering, not least given they're a club whose future has not always been certain.

Tell me about it. Some eye opening social media vitriol from Brentford fans angry about their precious pitch.

Cautiously optimistic re the takeover. IF the funds are transfered from the potential buyers to meet payroll this month, as reported, that would suggest things are pretty concrete.

Well see though. Big week for the club.

[sockwithaticket]

Sounds increasingly like the Irish takeover rumours are legit, with the American consortium allegedly paying this month's wages.
With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

Also incidentally as I read some of the stuff on Irish it is sometimes easy to forget the absolute visceral hate a section of football fans have for rugby, the amount of Brentford fans out there saying pretty vile stuff is staggering, not least given they're a club whose future has not always been certain.

Some of the Cov City fans were consistently knobbish when it came to anything Wasps throughout our time up there, but they were particularly unbearable when everything was going down earlier in the season.

[JM2K6]

Sounds increasingly like the Irish takeover rumours are legit, with the American consortium allegedly paying this month's wages.
With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

Also incidentally as I read some of the stuff on Irish it is sometimes easy to forget the absolute visceral hate a section of football fans have for rugby, the amount of Brentford fans out there saying pretty vile stuff is staggering, not least given they're a club whose future has not always been certain.

Some of the Cov City fans were consistently knobbish when it came to anything Wasps throughout our time up there, but they were particularly unbearable when everything was going down earlier in the season.

I might be wrong here but I recall reading that Cov City had basically been fucked off by the deal in the first place so I'm not hugely surprised...

[sockwithaticket]

Sounds increasingly like the Irish takeover rumours are legit, with the American consortium allegedly paying this month's wages.
With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

Also incidentally as I read some of the stuff on Irish it is sometimes easy to forget the absolute visceral hate a section of football fans have for rugby, the amount of Brentford fans out there saying pretty vile stuff is staggering, not least given they're a club whose future has not always been certain.

Some of the Cov City fans were consistently knobbish when it came to anything Wasps throughout our time up there, but they were particularly unbearable when everything was going down earlier in the season.

I might be wrong here but I recall reading that Cov City had basically been fucked off by the deal in the first place so I'm not hugely surprised...

Oh yeah they were very annoyed that their attempt to run down the price of the Ricoh was 'sabotaged' by the council finding another willing buyer. I thought they might chill out a bit over time, but the way they sustained their vitriol from day one to the end was actually impressive in its way.

[inactionman]

Sounds increasingly like the Irish takeover rumours are legit, with the American consortium allegedly paying this month's wages.
With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

Also incidentally as I read some of the stuff on Irish it is sometimes easy to forget the absolute visceral hate a section of football fans have for rugby, the amount of Brentford fans out there saying pretty vile stuff is staggering, not least given they're a club whose future has not always been certain.

Some of the Cov City fans were consistently knobbish when it came to anything Wasps throughout our time up there, but they were particularly unbearable when everything was going down earlier in the season.

I might be wrong here but I recall reading that Cov City had basically been fucked off by the deal in the first place so I'm not hugely surprised...

Sisu (hedge fund who owned Coventry) weren't negotiating in great faith - to be frank they didn't do much in great faith - but I'm not surprised that the long put-upon fans of Coventry weren't pleased to be evicted. Nothing like a bit of tribalism to throw objectivity out of the window.

Sisu are now out of the picture - it's a real shame this couldn't have happened before Wasps' demise as you wonder what could have been arranged between Wasps and the new owners. Surely in everyone's interests to have the football back in Coventry, full use of a tidy stadium and a bit of cost-sharing or actual revenue generation for Wasps.

[Paddington Bear]

Some of the Cov City fans were consistently knobbish when it came to anything Wasps throughout our time up there, but they were particularly unbearable when everything was going down earlier in the season.

I might be wrong here but I recall reading that Cov City had basically been fucked off by the deal in the first place so I'm not hugely surprised...

Oh yeah they were very annoyed that their attempt to run down the price of the Ricoh was 'sabotaged' by the council finding another willing buyer. I thought they might chill out a bit over time, but the way they sustained their vitriol from day one to the end was actually impressive in its way.

I give Cov fans a bit more of the benefit of the doubt based on what happened at the Ricoh and the Wasps Fan Forum's 'guide to rugby for Coventry fans' which included gems such as 'drink proper ale not lager at the rugby' and generally came across as written by a particular mid 60s type of twat who congregates at club rugby.

[Prembore]

Some of the Cov City fans were consistently knobbish when it came to anything Wasps throughout our time up there, but they were particularly unbearable when everything was going down earlier in the season.

I might be wrong here but I recall reading that Cov City had basically been fucked off by the deal in the first place so I'm not hugely surprised...

Oh yeah they were very annoyed that their attempt to run down the price of the Ricoh was 'sabotaged' by the council finding another willing buyer. I thought they might chill out a bit over time, but the way they sustained their vitriol from day one to the end was actually impressive in its way.

Lifelong commitment to teeth-gnashing ire is probably a pre-requisite for supporting a football club like Coventry City

[fishfoodie]

With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

How low can the League go ?

I mean the pips are already squeaking with the loss of two teams, & their fixtures & the associated gates, so how will losing another fixture possibly be sustained ?

BT, & the ERC, must have clauses in their contracts that link the money they pay out, to the participation, & if the league drops 20% of teams, it's not unreasonable that the broadcasters would reduce their payments by a similar ratio ?

It's a rare case of the Politicians actually doing their jobs & calling the inevitable, potential disaster, & telling the administrators they need to act, & act fast !

[Paddington Bear]

With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

How low can the League go ?

I mean the pips are already squeaking with the loss of two teams, & their fixtures & the associated gates, so how will losing another fixture possibly be sustained ?

BT, & the ERC, must have clauses in their contracts that link the money they pay out, to the participation, & if the league drops 20% of teams, it's not unreasonable that the broadcasters would reduce their payments by a similar ratio ?

It's a rare case of the Politicians actually doing their jobs & calling the inevitable, potential disaster, & telling the administrators they need to act, & act fast !

Probably to 10 teams. There's a rumour that there's one other side with financial issues but that's just speculation. On TV rights I'm not sure it matters so much - a 10 team league means there doesn't need to be any games during international windows, I can't imagine that a Sunday lunchtime kick off the day after England have played is drawing in BT's larger viewing numbers, and these weekends are a general drag on attendances and therefore ticket/bar/food sales etc anyway. BT never televised Worcester anyway!

In terms of 'we need to act' - what's the solution? Crowds are pretty healthy across the league, there's a good tv deal, the on field product is good and salaries are coming down. The challenge is particularly acute due to covid debts, if the clubs can weather this they ought to be fine in the medium term.

When we look at other club models:
Wales is in a worse state on any metric
France has more resources and men willing to chuck their cash at teams
Scotland has two pro sides underwritten by their governing body, both with average to poor attendances compared to almost all English clubs
Ireland has unique and well discussed advantages, England can't and won't copy the model

[shaggy]

With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

How low can the League go ?

I mean the pips are already squeaking with the loss of two teams, & their fixtures & the associated gates, so how will losing another fixture possibly be sustained ?

BT, & the ERC, must have clauses in their contracts that link the money they pay out, to the participation, & if the league drops 20% of teams, it's not unreasonable that the broadcasters would reduce their payments by a similar ratio ?

It's a rare case of the Politicians actually doing their jobs & calling the inevitable, potential disaster, & telling the administrators they need to act, & act fast !

Probably to 10 teams. There's a rumour that there's one other side with financial issues but that's just speculation. On TV rights I'm not sure it matters so much - a 10 team league means there doesn't need to be any games during international windows, I can't imagine that a Sunday lunchtime kick off the day after England have played is drawing in BT's larger viewing numbers, and these weekends are a general drag on attendances and therefore ticket/bar/food sales etc anyway. BT never televised Worcester anyway!

In terms of 'we need to act' - what's the solution? Crowds are pretty healthy across the league, there's a good tv deal, the on field product is good and salaries are coming down. The challenge is particularly acute due to covid debts, if the clubs can weather this they ought to be fine in the medium term.

When we look at other club models:
Wales is in a worse state on any metric
France has more resources and men willing to chuck their cash at teams
Scotland has two pro sides underwritten by their governing body, both with average to poor attendances compared to almost all English clubs
Ireland has unique and well discussed advantages, England can't and won't copy the model

How long before the calls for a B&I league start up again with a new twist on ‘to save English rugby’?

[JM2K6]

With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

How low can the League go ?

I mean the pips are already squeaking with the loss of two teams, & their fixtures & the associated gates, so how will losing another fixture possibly be sustained ?

BT, & the ERC, must have clauses in their contracts that link the money they pay out, to the participation, & if the league drops 20% of teams, it's not unreasonable that the broadcasters would reduce their payments by a similar ratio ?

It's a rare case of the Politicians actually doing their jobs & calling the inevitable, potential disaster, & telling the administrators they need to act, & act fast !

Probably to 10 teams. There's a rumour that there's one other side with financial issues but that's just speculation. On TV rights I'm not sure it matters so much - a 10 team league means there doesn't need to be any games during international windows, I can't imagine that a Sunday lunchtime kick off the day after England have played is drawing in BT's larger viewing numbers, and these weekends are a general drag on attendances and therefore ticket/bar/food sales etc anyway. BT never televised Worcester anyway!

In terms of 'we need to act' - what's the solution? Crowds are pretty healthy across the league, there's a good tv deal, the on field product is good and salaries are coming down. The challenge is particularly acute due to covid debts, if the clubs can weather this they ought to be fine in the medium term.

When we look at other club models:
Wales is in a worse state on any metric
France has more resources and men willing to chuck their cash at teams
Scotland has two pro sides underwritten by their governing body, both with average to poor attendances compared to almost all English clubs
Ireland has unique and well discussed advantages, England can't and won't copy the model

Salaries are going back up, no?