What is wrong with English rugby?

[sockwithaticket]

When it comes to Europe, we now have half the spending power of the French teams, which compromises squad depth and the number of absolutely top players a squad can accommodate while still being big enough to get through the season. What other nations who don't have France's spending power have done is concentrate their talent into a few sides, ours is spread out across 11 (13 when the season began...).

Until one of those factors changes I suspect we won't see any English teams make it past the quarter final stage.

Meantime, we see Itoje saying players need better wages to make them want to stay in Eng?

As for this, well we see he's not as smart as BT seem to think every time they fawningly mention his politics degree. Between France's JIFF regulations and Japan's foreign player restrictions (80% of a Top League squad has to be a Category A player, which is to say Japanese. Not even Japan eligible, that's covered by Category B), there are not many better paying opportunities abroad even if English players don't want to stay and play in the Prem. Those limited spots are also being contested by the best and very good of the rest of the world.

I thought about this and I don't think you are suggesting concentrating into fewer sides in Eng, but it probably wouldn't work. Those other countries are small and so fewer sides can represent enough regions to keep the pyramid from top down going. I accept that Wales has nothing in the North but that wasn't a rugby heartland and also Wales has actually broken the model in having too few teams anyway. So, if Eng only had, say, 6 teams, I think the structure would collapse from the bottom up with kids (to begin with) finding other interests.

Yeah, definitely not suggesting that we do it now. Just pointing out that our talent is spread and with less money we've lost the means to otherwise provide sufficient depth in our teams for more than one or two to have decent European campaigns.

Maybe we could have found a viable way to structure a more regional system if it were done at the outset of professionalism, but that horse has bolted.

[Hellraiser]

In answer to the original question, the pathway is certainly one issue. The RFU definitely stripped some money from the u18 and u20 set ups. Then you have swathes of senior academy players getting only very occasional game time out on loan or in a handful of prem cup games. You've got a generation of professional trainers rather than rugby players in some cases.

Hopefully that's addressed in future at some point by either more formal links to lower league teams/BUCs or a new A league replacement competition.

You'll definitely have cases of fringe players who may have really kicked on with more meaningful gametime than they were able to get.

I've wondered if Prem teams would be better off with a stronger American baseball-style 'farm team' system? Smaller squad, able to call up promising players from their aligned Championship team? I imagine it happens... I recall hearing of players 'dual contracted' but to what degree? Always seemed to be youngsters, too, when surely there are some wise 'old' late 20-somethings who wouldn't disappoint when called up for a stint in the Prem.

They kind of do that at anyrate. Club rugby in England is much more like American sports and set to making the league competitive. This levelling of teams also leads to much more player movement so less continuity. It was Saracens being able to hoard/hold and acquire talent that made it was obvious that they were breaking the rules in the premiership (note-they broke no rules at all in European comps). We've also kind of messed up a cycle which happens. I forgot the game was on yesterday which shows how interested I am in whatever they've done to the euro comps.

Their breaking of the rules in the Premiership affected their seeding and pool draws in Europe.

[TheNatalShark]

What other nations who don't have France's spending power have done is concentrate their talent into a few sides, ours is spread out across 11 (13 when the season began...).

A casual outside reminder this is the England playing pool being talked about, those silly numbers of active players aside, England literally has more than 4 times as many professional players available with tremendous depth from semi and amateurs vs Sco/Ire/Wal. Talent concentration really isn't a suitable woe is me excuse as the proportions are more than adequately covered.

These numbers create a floor rather than guaranteeing success, we just produce more players of the same standard. That’s what the player pool gives us rather than non stop talent.

A few other considerations:
1) the English system produces more players who are qualified for other nations than any other
2) rugby is a minority sport in England, meaning outside of private schools the talent pool is feeding off scraps. This isn’t unique, but I’d argue competing directly with the Premier League is a major point of difference that works against us and our national rugby team is not unique in giving us a chance to compete at the top of world sport, creating fewer national moments.
3) our private schools are much more focussed on cricket than rugby by and large, when compared to what’s going on round Dublin.

Wrote a chunk but then realised the whole argument presented here is seemingly entirely based on Leinster/Ireland, intentional or not.

Therefore my short take you can disagree with is - England isn't unique, its resources and opportunities aren't uniquely threatened and other nations don't have a purposely limited number of pro teams to try and consolidate talent - it is literally just all they can afford and reflection of numbers, pure capitalism. There are better things for English rugby to look at.

[Torquemada 1420]

URC level - Super Rugby as it was ended because the relationship became unworkable, especially between SA and Aus. Too many cooks demanding too many ingredients go into the pot. The best solution imo was the one offered by SARU, that each conference be self contained only playing against other teams in that conference, which then qualified teams for a Super Rugby round, this was rejected for the mess Super Rugby became. That mess then failed, and it went back to a Super 12 style format but with 15 sides, and SA somehow ended up with 4 sides only (we ended up in the position we held during Super 12 but with more travel, the last time SA had only 4 sides was in 2005), SARU then put the Cheetahs and Kings into the Pro, and gave up trying to negotiate.

My preferred option would've been a heavily expanded Super Rugby using the format SARU offered (that format was the only one capable of handling something really adventurous like 20+ teams from SA/Aus/NZ/Arg/Jap/PIs), but that's never going to happen because the only thing the Aussies want from Super Rugby is an unsustainable amount of Aussie sides who are beaten by the Kiwis every weekend.

URC has gone way better than most expected. Needs more time to see how the finances and structure pan out. The goal beyond just providing a tournament has to be bringing in enough revenue to keep more players in SA, the money generating part of SANZAAR is the RC, Super Rugby was always quite poor at adding value in terms of cash. I'm preferring the URC to the Champions/Challenge, URC has a more Super Rugby feel where you get to know each side as the season progresses and learn all their players through seasons, in the Champions/Challenge I've sometimes had no clue if the SA team was even facing a full strength opponent.

CC level - Important for SARU's strategy. NZ opted to concentrate finances very heavily towards keeping their top ABs, SARU opted for the opposite strategy of having as many pro teams/players as possible and not breaking the bank to pay market rate keeping all the best in SA. SARU is pursuing a production strategy. Now all the pro comps below test level overlap, CC has become a lot more even and minnow provinces have a chance of winning (because top provinces can't always use their URC/Champions/Challenge squads). It's increasing the amount of players that are getting exposed to something meaningful, and could add a lot more depth. Most Saturdays there's pro SA teams playing all day in a variety of comps, that was never the case during Super Rugby, some weekends all your viewing could be over by about midday and you only saw three SA sides play. Now there's the 8 CC teams and the 5 teams in European comps (URC teams + Cheetahs).

Overall - I'm sure there's going to be problems that emerge and it all needs to be financially viable (one issue is fixture clashes in the URC when two SA sides are playing foreign teams at the same time, SA fans like to watch every match SA teams play if they have the time, regardless of if they support them). But so far it looks like an upgrade in terms of finances/structure compared to where Super Rugby ended up for us. I am watching more, so I guess others are. I can't see us ever going back to Super Rugby, we always seemed to end up getting the worst deal out of it compared to Aus and NZ. If the URC fails, then I would support a 10 side CC ahead of returning to Super Rugby, I would be prepared to take the hit of having no international element to domestic rugby just to avoid all that bullshit again.

Can't disagree with any of the bits that I have any knowledge of. I loved Soup early days for the same reason I loved HEC: international comp between club sides. Like you, I'd watch (and go to many) Fre games because of that Fra v them aspect. Ironically, both comps ended up being sh*te for similar reasons: too many teams/games and who wants to play the same sides you play in your domestic comp?

That said, I always said Soup was a con by the Aussies played on a gullible NZ and SA because Aus had no viable domestic comp and they could see that resulting in them disappearing as an intl force in professionalism. NZ and SA strangled their domestic comps as a result.

I'm not sure where I stand now on SA teams in Europe. Maybe HEC is bolloxed no matter what and a bit of SA interest isn't going to fix that. Regardless, I think HEC has to be careful that it doesn't become another ARU in this i.e. if we are having SA teams, it has to be an even playing field in terms of fixtures, travel etc. Anything else is simply unfair.

[Line6 HXFX]

Well all I can say is I hope your developmental officer and head of rugby participation in England, doesn't turn around and sue the RFU for not protecting them enough and giving them early onset.

Can you imagine..

"Who got you into rugby Gareth, I thought it was football for you"?

WRU Head of Rugby Participation Ryan Jones, he revealed a far-reaching and inclusive vision for the next phase of the WRU’s successful hub programme – 'to give every child in Wales a positive rugby experience'

"But isn't he now suing..."

Yes...


..you think you have problems.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I don't see why that has to be a problem, what Jones is doing that is. More than one thing can be true

[fishfoodie]

How about; The best English sides play a style of Rugby that gets them to the knockout stages ...... but no further?

It would have been beautiful if Glaws had progressed.

[JM2K6]

How about we stop making knee jerk posts on the basis of a handful of matches

[fishfoodie]

How about we stop making knee jerk posts on the basis of a handful of matches

Spoilsport

[sockwithaticket]

How about; The best English sides play a style of Rugby that gets them to the knockout stages ...... but no further?

It would have been beautiful if Glaws had progressed.

Take Leinster out of the equation and we could say the same about Irish sides, no? Even the Mighty Dubs may yet not make the final.

[OomStruisbaai]

No SA teams though so presume the crisis moves over to them?

It's a bit silly to measure SA Rugby with our teams HC competition sucesse when 50% of our Springboks playing in Japan the local 45% just out their rest period and other playing for the opposition.

SA schoolboy rugby structures and culture is the strongest in world rugby and will give us the platform for the sport. In fact it's currently only developing in our population market.

Most of our top rugby schools have better DoRs then at CC level. Examples are Pieter Rossouw, Sean Erasmus, ext who earn more then a CC coach.

Only 3% of our Craven Week player make it to professional rugby players. 70% end up studying and play Varsity Cup.

[OomStruisbaai]

Personally I think as long as England keep their base of schoolboy players they will remain a top rugby country.

No doubt about that.

[Torquemada 1420]

How about we stop making knee jerk posts on the basis of a handful of matches

The discussion is far wider than that though. I accept that maybe it's all cyclical and in a year or so the hamper brigade will be back to guffawing in the Twickenham car parks but it doesn't feel like that from here.

[redderneck]

Pro rugby unsustainable at club level. Moolah is in the international game. When markets are riding high and money is historically cheap, you can get away with it. When not, you don't.

Would take some sort of Superleague to make it viable long-term. Which will kill pro rugby in smaller markets.

This new competition mooted to replace Autumn/Summer tours, seems to me to be a tacit acceptance of my opening claim.

[CM11]

Pro rugby unsustainable at club level. Moolah is in the international game. When markets are riding high and money is historically cheap, you can get away with it. When not, you don't.

Would take some sort of Superleague to make it viable long-term. Which will kill pro rugby in smaller markets.

This new competition mooted to replace Autumn/Summer tours, seems to me to be a tacit acceptance of my opening claim.

There's plenty of money in the club game but not enough outside France to sustain the way salaries have gone.

£5m salary cap outside the one marquee player is over 100k per player before you take into account anything else and that's considered a low cap because of wage inflation. I know it's sport and people want a nest egg but it's still not a bad average salary.

France fúck things up a bit though and have from day one.

[petej]

How about we stop making knee jerk posts on the basis of a handful of matches

The discussion is far wider than that though. I accept that maybe it's all cyclical and in a year or so the hamper brigade will be back to guffawing in the Twickenham car parks but it doesn't feel like that from here.

I've assumed that brigade barely watches the matches so will keep going.

[Torquemada 1420]

How about we stop making knee jerk posts on the basis of a handful of matches

The discussion is far wider than that though. I accept that maybe it's all cyclical and in a year or so the hamper brigade will be back to guffawing in the Twickenham car parks but it doesn't feel like that from here.

I've assumed that brigade barely watches the matches so will keep going.

Fair point.

[Torquemada 1420]

Quite an interesting article
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... rn-top-14/

[Niegs]

Quite an interesting article
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... rn-top-14/

Any chance of a cut and paste?

[Stranger]

Just press esc as the article loads

[SaintK]

Quite an interesting article
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... rn-top-14/

Any chance of a cut and paste?

This should be ok
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2 ... -14%2F

[JM2K6]

It's more interesting as an examination of just how different French rugby is to English rugby (and, ultimately, an indictment at their lack of success at the very highest level of the sport compared to other big countries) than anything else. The foundations are completely different - not a huge amount we can do about that.

[Paddington Bear]

It’s an interesting article.
There’s no doubt that English rugby struggles to connect with local community. Gloucester are probably the exception in the Prem, likewise the amateur clubs around there and the Forest of Dean at a lower level. The rest of us tend to fall on the wrong side of a ‘town v gown’ style divide. That isn’t going to change, not even a minuscule chance. I mentioned this around when Irish were rumoured to be in trouble, but the active glee of Brentford fans was a reminder that a lot of football fans actively despise the sport and want the worst for it.

Moving around fixtures I think has more potential. Irish, for example, are drawing a crowd in Brentford that is basically the same as a t20 at the Oval, could they not try playing on a Thursday night?

In the end, football remains the issue for rugby and community. A quick look at even League 2/National League attendances shows you that. There can only be so many shows in town.

[Torquemada 1420]

It’s an interesting article.
There’s no doubt that English rugby struggles to connect with local community. Gloucester are probably the exception in the Prem, likewise the amateur clubs around there and the Forest of Dean at a lower level. The rest of us tend to fall on the wrong side of a ‘town v gown’ style divide. That isn’t going to change, not even a minuscule chance. I mentioned this around when Irish were rumoured to be in trouble, but the active glee of Brentford fans was a reminder that a lot of football fans actively despise the sport and want the worst for it.

Moving around fixtures I think has more potential. Irish, for example, are drawing a crowd in Brentford that is basically the same as a t20 at the Oval, could they not try playing on a Thursday night?

In the end, football remains the issue for rugby and community. A quick look at even League 2/National League attendances shows you that. There can only be so many shows in town.

Saint threw his toys out of the pram when I pointed out that a fundamental difference between rugby in Eng v Fra (and Wales as another) is that it's a "toffs" game in Eng. That immediately is a very limiting factor. The atmosphere at the LaR game yesterday is something Eng clubs could only ever dream about and that's all about class division too i.e. toffs don't chant or sing any more than white men can jump.

I can affirm your observation in as much that in the football groups I am involved with, I am the ONLY one who straddles both sports. It's not that the football supporters are even generally ambivalent to rugby, they actively hate the people involved with it and even my close English football supporting friends give me sh*t if I ever mention rugby.
Thought you were smart when you took them on, but you didn't take a peep in their artillery room. All that rugby puts hairs on your chest but what chance have you got against a tie and a crest? Indeed.

[Niegs]

Quite an interesting article
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... rn-top-14/

Any chance of a cut and paste?

This should be ok
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2 ... -14%2F