The Official English Rugby Thread

[Slick]

Yep - we just cannot have players calling out refs, it's not only a really poor look but it also has real-world consequences, with the normalising of criticism (and worse) of refs at amateur and kid's levels.

There's always an issue with 'heat of moment' social media posting, wondering if it wouldn't be a good plan for players to keep their phones turned off for a while after a match. I appreciate they're all grown adults, but they're representing the club who could stipulate no social media use around match times.

Was speaking with a couple of folk last week who were saying that abuse of refs at junior rugby, from the sideline and the players, has gone into overdrive this year. It's a real worry.

[inactionman]

Yep - we just cannot have players calling out refs, it's not only a really poor look but it also has real-world consequences, with the normalising of criticism (and worse) of refs at amateur and kid's levels.

There's always an issue with 'heat of moment' social media posting, wondering if it wouldn't be a good plan for players to keep their phones turned off for a while after a match. I appreciate they're all grown adults, but they're representing the club who could stipulate no social media use around match times.

Was speaking with a couple of folk last week who were saying that abuse of refs at junior rugby, from the sideline and the players, has gone into overdrive this year. It's a real worry.

It's appalling - for some reason, some parents in particular just seem to lose the plot.

I'm not sure what can really be done. The only fix I can see is for the clubs themselves to ban players and to suspend players who parents abuse refs/coaches/other team members, which is just a headache and source of undesirable conflict within a club unless the governing body does this based on reports from the ref, which is also just going to add to conflict.

Making abuse and criticisms of referees clearly unacceptable, and not something that professionals do, is obviously a key part of it, but I worry the rot is already set in.

[Paddington Bear]

Yep - we just cannot have players calling out refs, it's not only a really poor look but it also has real-world consequences, with the normalising of criticism (and worse) of refs at amateur and kid's levels.

There's always an issue with 'heat of moment' social media posting, wondering if it wouldn't be a good plan for players to keep their phones turned off for a while after a match. I appreciate they're all grown adults, but they're representing the club who could stipulate no social media use around match times.

Was speaking with a couple of folk last week who were saying that abuse of refs at junior rugby, from the sideline and the players, has gone into overdrive this year. It's a real worry.

It's appalling - for some reason, some parents in particular just seem to lose the plot.

I'm not sure what can really be done. The only fix I can see is for the clubs themselves to ban players and to suspend players who parents abuse refs/coaches/other team members, which is just a headache and source of undesirable conflict within a club unless the governing body does this based on reports from the ref, which is also just going to add to conflict.

Making abuse and criticisms of referees clearly unacceptable, and not something that professionals do, is obviously a key part of it, but I worry the rot is already set in.

Same across all sports, see the junior refs in Merseyside football went on strike for a bit this season. Of course nothing will really change.

For junior cricket, we've seen the issue at our club and others go from 0-100 since covid, with parents absolutely disgracing themselves on a weekly basis. For this season just beginning we've made it a mandatory requirement for all parents to sign a code of conduct, and if they haven't within a fortnight they'll have their child's membership cancelled with no refund. About 5-10% of parents have also been given a warning/final warning about their behaviour with the same sanction threatened. We are quite serious about it and will happily lose members rather than continue to deal with this nonsense and have the good name we've built up in the local game dragged through the mud.
This of course is easy to say and do when your junior section is oversubscribed and you have a very healthy senior section too, not everyone has that luxury.
We'll see how well it works, but initial conversations suggest the majority of junior parents (and kids) love it because they're embarrassed by the same old idiots, and a number who have received a warning have taken it very well.

[inactionman]

Was speaking with a couple of folk last week who were saying that abuse of refs at junior rugby, from the sideline and the players, has gone into overdrive this year. It's a real worry.

It's appalling - for some reason, some parents in particular just seem to lose the plot.

I'm not sure what can really be done. The only fix I can see is for the clubs themselves to ban players and to suspend players who parents abuse refs/coaches/other team members, which is just a headache and source of undesirable conflict within a club unless the governing body does this based on reports from the ref, which is also just going to add to conflict.

Making abuse and criticisms of referees clearly unacceptable, and not something that professionals do, is obviously a key part of it, but I worry the rot is already set in.

Same across all sports, see the junior refs in Merseyside football went on strike for a bit this season. Of course nothing will really change.

For junior cricket, we've seen the issue at our club and others go from 0-100 since covid, with parents absolutely disgracing themselves on a weekly basis. For this season just beginning we've made it a mandatory requirement for all parents to sign a code of conduct, and if they haven't within a fortnight they'll have their child's membership cancelled with no refund. About 5-10% of parents have also been given a warning/final warning about their behaviour with the same sanction threatened. We are quite serious about it and will happily lose members rather than continue to deal with this nonsense and have the good name we've built up in the local game dragged through the mud.
This of course is easy to say and do when your junior section is oversubscribed and you have a very healthy senior section too, not everyone has that luxury.
We'll see how well it works, but initial conversations suggest the majority of junior parents (and kids) love it because they're embarrassed by the same old idiots, and a number who have received a warning have taken it very well.

Good luck to you (seriously, not sarcastically) - I actually hold out some faith in humanity that, once someone has called them on their behaviour, most people would reflect and realise that maybe they need to tone it down. If they don't well, good riddance, and encourager les autres

[inactionman]

I also missed this from a few weeks back -Anthony Watson still begrudging over his Bath exit.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/anthony- ... club-bath/

There were all sorts of rumours about unrealistic demands etc, and to be honest I think the club have a reasonable expectation that a player would play when available, but whatever's occurred it's troubling to have ex-players feeling they've been so poorly treated.

Also some comments from Henry Thomas in a similar vein (although only caught these second-hand, think they're behind paywall somewhere), he's doing well in France and really should have been on England's radar but had a few nasty injuries. It seems he's stated that he wasn't paid by Bath for his final year - I know Bath have ben a bit shambolic but I really, really struggle to believe that's true. Has anyone with access behind e.g. times paywall seen anything about this?

[SaintK]

Yep - we just cannot have players calling out refs, it's not only a really poor look but it also has real-world consequences, with the normalising of criticism (and worse) of refs at amateur and kid's levels.

There's always an issue with 'heat of moment' social media posting, wondering if it wouldn't be a good plan for players to keep their phones turned off for a while after a match. I appreciate they're all grown adults, but they're representing the club who could stipulate no social media use around match times.

Was speaking with a couple of folk last week who were saying that abuse of refs at junior rugby, from the sideline and the players, has gone into overdrive this year. It's a real worry.

The RFU have a code of conduct which ALL clubs should implement and enforce. My junior club have not had to discipline or suspend any player or parent/spectator for breeching that code. Though this season I have seen an opposition coach sent off from the touchline by the ref in a seniors match. He was subsequently thrown out of his club as they had received multiple complaints as to his behaviour. I also witnessed a parent being sent off the touchline in a boys match, the ref reported it and the parent was subsequently banned from the touchline for the remainder of the season and warned thst his membership would be revoked if it happened again.

[sockwithaticket]

I also missed this from a few weeks back -Anthony Watson still begrudging over his Bath exit.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/anthony- ... club-bath/

There were all sorts of rumours about unrealistic demands etc, and to be honest I think the club have a reasonable expectation that a player would play when available, but whatever's occurred it's troubling to have ex-players feeling they've been so poorly treated.

Also some comments from Henry Thomas in a similar vein (although only caught these second-hand, think they're behind paywall somewhere), he's doing well in France and really should have been on England's radar but had a few nasty injuries. It seems he's stated that he wasn't paid by Bath for his final year - I know Bath have ben a bit shambolic but I really, really struggle to believe that's true. Has anyone with access behind e.g. times paywall seen anything about this?

I can't remember the exact limit, but there is a cut off point into an injury where clubs aren't obliged to pay players. With poor old Sam Jones I remember him being very thankful to Wasps for continuing to pay him even when we didn't have to. It could be that Bath weren't as generous towards Thomas.

[inactionman]

I also missed this from a few weeks back -Anthony Watson still begrudging over his Bath exit.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/anthony- ... club-bath/

There were all sorts of rumours about unrealistic demands etc, and to be honest I think the club have a reasonable expectation that a player would play when available, but whatever's occurred it's troubling to have ex-players feeling they've been so poorly treated.

Also some comments from Henry Thomas in a similar vein (although only caught these second-hand, think they're behind paywall somewhere), he's doing well in France and really should have been on England's radar but had a few nasty injuries. It seems he's stated that he wasn't paid by Bath for his final year - I know Bath have ben a bit shambolic but I really, really struggle to believe that's true. Has anyone with access behind e.g. times paywall seen anything about this?

I can't remember the exact limit, but there is a cut off point into an injury where clubs aren't obliged to pay players. With poor old Sam Jones I remember him being very thankful to Wasps for continuing to pay him even when we didn't have to. It could be that Bath weren't as generous towards Thomas.

That would make sense - it was expressed to me that he was owed the wages, but I couldn't see how that could possibly be permitted.

Although he spent a very, very long time in the physio room (it was best part of 4 year s, off and on?) it feels sordid to withhold wages due to injury - the player is down enough without having to worry about roof over head.

[Raggs]

I also missed this from a few weeks back -Anthony Watson still begrudging over his Bath exit.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/anthony- ... club-bath/

There were all sorts of rumours about unrealistic demands etc, and to be honest I think the club have a reasonable expectation that a player would play when available, but whatever's occurred it's troubling to have ex-players feeling they've been so poorly treated.

Also some comments from Henry Thomas in a similar vein (although only caught these second-hand, think they're behind paywall somewhere), he's doing well in France and really should have been on England's radar but had a few nasty injuries. It seems he's stated that he wasn't paid by Bath for his final year - I know Bath have ben a bit shambolic but I really, really struggle to believe that's true. Has anyone with access behind e.g. times paywall seen anything about this?

I can't remember the exact limit, but there is a cut off point into an injury where clubs aren't obliged to pay players. With poor old Sam Jones I remember him being very thankful to Wasps for continuing to pay him even when we didn't have to. It could be that Bath weren't as generous towards Thomas.

That would make sense - it was expressed to me that he was owed the wages, but I couldn't see how that could possibly be permitted.

Although he spent a very, very long time in the physio room (it was best part of 4 year s, off and on?) it feels sordid to withhold wages due to injury - the player is down enough without having to worry about roof over head.

At the same time, with him injured for so long, it might be that Bath felt that they'd supported a non-performing player for long enough. They may well have gone above and beyond with previous long term injuries.

[Paddington Bear]

I can't remember the exact limit, but there is a cut off point into an injury where clubs aren't obliged to pay players. With poor old Sam Jones I remember him being very thankful to Wasps for continuing to pay him even when we didn't have to. It could be that Bath weren't as generous towards Thomas.

That would make sense - it was expressed to me that he was owed the wages, but I couldn't see how that could possibly be permitted.

Although he spent a very, very long time in the physio room (it was best part of 4 year s, off and on?) it feels sordid to withhold wages due to injury - the player is down enough without having to worry about roof over head.

At the same time, with him injured for so long, it might be that Bath felt that they'd supported a non-performing player for long enough. They may well have gone above and beyond with previous long term injuries.

It's a really tough one but at the end of the day these aren't charities and they can't keep paying someone forever. Same principle as long-term sickness at work really.

[SaintK]

I can't remember the exact limit, but there is a cut off point into an injury where clubs aren't obliged to pay players. With poor old Sam Jones I remember him being very thankful to Wasps for continuing to pay him even when we didn't have to. It could be that Bath weren't as generous towards Thomas.

That would make sense - it was expressed to me that he was owed the wages, but I couldn't see how that could possibly be permitted.

Although he spent a very, very long time in the physio room (it was best part of 4 year s, off and on?) it feels sordid to withhold wages due to injury - the player is down enough without having to worry about roof over head.

At the same time, with him injured for so long, it might be that Bath felt that they'd supported a non-performing player for long enough. They may well have gone above and beyond with previous long term injuries.

From what I understand from a pal who works with a number of clubs in the Prem and URC. There is usually a clause in their contracts thata after X many months out injured there is a sliding scale of wage reductions. Not sure at what point that reduces to zero which it may well have done with Watson after so much time out.
Most senior players will also have loss of earnings insurance to call upon.

[SaintK]

Limited sympathy really. Regardless of the decision, if you're going to insist on going at it on social media, be a bit more abstract rather than it clearly being directed at the ref.

Pretty sure he won't be doing it again in a hurry!

Nowell fined £10,000 for online comments

https://www.exeterchiefs.co.uk/news/no ... comments

[Kawazaki]

2-3 weeks salary?

Imagine if they fined Premier League footballers at a similar scale every time they abused a referee?!

[sockwithaticket]

They'd not have such a problem.

[Paddington Bear]

The EPL was shamed into giving a half reasonable ban to Mitrovic in the end, the fact they’re so reluctant to touch ref abuse is a factor in why there is so much of it, and why grassroots football can be embarrassing to watch a lot of the time. Not the example we should follow

[Torquemada 1420]

Yep - we just cannot have players calling out refs, it's not only a really poor look but it also has real-world consequences, with the normalising of criticism (and worse) of refs at amateur and kid's levels.

There's always an issue with 'heat of moment' social media posting, wondering if it wouldn't be a good plan for players to keep their phones turned off for a while after a match. I appreciate they're all grown adults, but they're representing the club who could stipulate no social media use around match times.

Normally I would agree i.e. all refs make errors and there is enough yapping on the pitch without adding it to off. However, when it comes to the consistent incompetence of the likes of Dickson, Brace and Adamson, I sympathise with Nowell. They should be nowhere near the game and the fact that they are permitted to continue ruining matches is a crime in itself greater than Nowell's.

[SaintK]

Saints 28 5 Up against Falcons at half time with a try bonus point but you never know with Saints
The new Falcons coach has got an awful lot to do when he arrives

[Oxbow]

Score straight after half time to make it 35-5. Should be enough, even for Saints.

[Torquemada 1420]

What's the record home defeat in the Prem?

[Oxbow]

Finished 5-66. He had an easy ride tonight, but Fin Smith looked absolute class. He has a big future ahead of him.

[SaintK]

Finished 5-66. He had an easy ride tonight, but Fin Smith looked absolute class. He has a big future ahead of him.

Yep, terrific potential
Thought Mitchell was class as well. Not sure why Collins hasn’t had his contract renewed, great club man
Codling has a huge job to do at Falcons

[Oxbow]

Finished 5-66. He had an easy ride tonight, but Fin Smith looked absolute class. He has a big future ahead of him.

Yep, terrific potential
Thought Mitchell was class as well. Not sure why Collins hasn’t had his contract renewed, great club man
Codling has a huge job to do at Falcons

Really sad to see Collins go, he never has a bad game and there's no substitute for raw pace. Seems to have been undervalued at Saints where he's often had to play second fiddle to bigger names who weren't performing as well as he was.

[sockwithaticket]

What's the record home defeat in the Prem?

Could well be this one. All the other thumpings I can find were either at the home ground of the victors or had a smaller margin of defeat. Even though Sarries put 71 on Bath last season, the latter did score enough points of their own to keep the margin below 61.

[Kawazaki]

Both of the Newcastle wingers should really be playing for better standard clubs. Radwan should get 20+ tries a season with his talent.

[SaintK]

What's the record home defeat in the Prem?

Could well be this one. All the other thumpings I can find were either at the home ground of the victors or had a smaller margin of defeat. Even though Sarries put 71 on Bath last season, the latter did score enough points of their own to keep the margin below 61.

Thought it was Falcons again when they lost to TIgers 83-10 in 2004

[sockwithaticket]

What's the record home defeat in the Prem?

Could well be this one. All the other thumpings I can find were either at the home ground of the victors or had a smaller margin of defeat. Even though Sarries put 71 on Bath last season, the latter did score enough points of their own to keep the margin below 61.

Thought it was Falcons again when they lost to TIgers 83-10 in 2004

That was at Welford Road, though. I think it may be the overall biggest defeat in Prem history, but not home defeat as Torq specified.

[sockwithaticket]

Both of the Newcastle wingers should really be playing for better standard clubs. Radwan should get 20+ tries a season with his talent.

I'm amazed Carreras isn't in France. Obviously Radwan has to stay in the Prem if he wants to have another shot with England, but there's nothing tying Argetinean wings and he's far, far too good to be wasting away in Newcastle.

Wings are always down the bottom of the Prem earning chart when that info surfaces, so it's maybe a little bit more difficult for Radwan to engineer a worthwhile move, but he should probably consider it anyway. He needs to be in a team that's at least qualifying for the top tier of Europe to press for international selection really.

[Oxbow]

He'd score bucketloads in this Saints side. Ideal replacement for Collins too. A man can dream.

[SaintK]

Could well be this one. All the other thumpings I can find were either at the home ground of the victors or had a smaller margin of defeat. Even though Sarries put 71 on Bath last season, the latter did score enough points of their own to keep the margin below 61.

Thought it was Falcons again when they lost to TIgers 83-10 in 2004

That was at Welford Road, though. I think it may be the overall biggest defeat in Prem history, but not home defeat as Torq specified.

Bugger, didn't notice that!!!

[sockwithaticket]

Care out, Gjaltema to start. Advantage Bath.

[Kawazaki]

Both of the Newcastle wingers should really be playing for better standard clubs. Radwan should get 20+ tries a season with his talent.

I'm amazed Carreras isn't in France. Obviously Radwan has to stay in the Prem if he wants to have another shot with England, but there's nothing tying Argetinean wings and he's far, far too good to be wasting away in Newcastle.

Wings are always down the bottom of the Prem earning chart when that info surfaces, so it's maybe a little bit more difficult for Radwan to engineer a worthwhile move, but he should probably consider it anyway. He needs to be in a team that's at least qualifying for the top tier of Europe to press for international selection really.

With Malins off the Sarries payroll I'd quite like to see them try and recruit Radwan although he does remind me a bit of a faster version of Lewington - which is no bad thing but maybe not quite the uplift you might think it would be.

[Paddington Bear]

Healthy crowd and a tight game here in the Championship decider in sunny Jersey. Amazing how without a TMO anything goes with flying shoulders

[Paddington Bear]

What's the record home defeat in the Prem?

Could well be this one. All the other thumpings I can find were either at the home ground of the victors or had a smaller margin of defeat. Even though Sarries put 71 on Bath last season, the latter did score enough points of their own to keep the margin below 61.

Suspect we’re not looking back far enough. Bedford, West Hartlepool and Rotherham were all on the end of mega thumpings in the Prem

[Paddington Bear]

Jersey hold on in pissing rain to go top of the Championship with a game to play. Ealing not as strong as advertised from 1-23

[Raggs]

LCD might have lost his French contract after not turning up for his medical, and instead going out on the beers...

[Hal Jordan]

LCD might have lost his French contract after not turning up for his medical, and instead going out on the beers...

Just came here to spread this saucy tittle tattle.

If true, that's up there in the England hooker idiocy book with Hartley binning his Lions tour.

[Raggs]

LCD might have lost his French contract after not turning up for his medical, and instead going out on the beers...

Just came here to spread this saucy tittle tattle.

If true, that's up there in the England hooker idiocy book with Hartley binning his Lions tour.

There's some suggestion that he wouldn't have passed the medical anyway, due to a prior neck injury.

[Torquemada 1420]

LCD might have lost his French contract after not turning up for his medical, and instead going out on the beers...

Yup. Was already in question over some cervical vertebrae uncertainties so he was meant to turn up over 2 days for medical exams and decided to miss the 2nd............ after going on the lash all night with his agent (FFS).

[Ovals]

Care out, Gjaltema to start. Advantage Bath.

He was a huge downgrade on Care.

Quite a fun game to watch at Twickers - Quins need to realise that Defence is not optional - they leak like a sieve. Marcus was his brilliant best though and Dommers gad a big game.

[SaintK]

Finished 5-66. He had an easy ride tonight, but Fin Smith looked absolute class. He has a big future ahead of him.

Yep, terrific potential
Thought Mitchell was class as well. Not sure why Collins hasn’t had his contract renewed, great club man
Codling has a huge job to do at Falcons

Really sad to see Collins go, he never has a bad game and there's no substitute for raw pace. Seems to have been undervalued at Saints where he's often had to play second fiddle to bigger names who weren't performing as well as he was.

According to The Rugby Paper Collins is off to London Irish. Evidently he was offered a contract renewal at Saints but has chosen to move on.