Stop voting for fucking Tories

[robmatic]

I've tried to look into the scale before, numbers are very hard to get at. Lots of eunuchs, and lots of guessing. It would make sense if it was larger than the Atlantic trade given the closer geography.

I think the comparison is difficult. The Ottomans had slavery as an institution over a longer period but didn't use slaves for mass labour purposes like in the plantations. And you also had devsirme like the Janissaries and imperial administrators who weren't slaves as we think of them but were abducted as children and put into service.

[JM2K6]

Yay for voter suppression!

[_Os_]

Anyway being indentured would have fucking sucked and reflects most modern forms of slavery. You don't see lads writing 'Ahh don't worry about the whore and that Albanian drunkard made work on the farm. They are actually indentured and that is just A fucking 1'

Is this the next Tory manifesto pledge on modern slavery?

[_Os_]

I kinda see this point. But I'd also argue the Tories play the immigration card a lot but always seem to be the party of record immigration. They have never really atken action on it, only presented big contraversial talking points on what to do. Of course boats are goingt o come over with a weakly funded and staffed border force and no resourceput into assessing refugees and immigrants and enforcing the rules.

The Tories liek to talk about it a lot but then do everything to incentivise things for people to enter the country because they are too addicted to small government-neo-liberal bullshit.

I've posted about this before so a bit of repeat post. The Tories use it to harvest votes but don't care otherwise. Their big plan was the "points based immigration system" and "take back control" through Brexit. The implication being less immigrants. They're not being honest with people (nor are labour), the potential pool of migrants will always be massive because Britain's empire was the largest. All the other European states that had large empires disproportionately have large migrant communities from those states, the UK is the same. Since travel has become cheaper any immigration system the UK has come up with has been used to the maximum.

The small boats is a new situation and not where this started or what it's really about. That could be ended and the people concerned about immigration still would be, they wouldn't be saying "that's great the small boats are gone, and the UK government now controls the immigration rules that produce 2.5m-5m net immigrants into the UK per decade ... I'm happy". Nor would they be happy with the economic impact if immigration could be turned off.

I don't think being tough on crime is attacing their own base. It might be attacking a certain kind of Islington dinner party elite who genuinely thinsk defund the police is a godo diea, but outside some chattering classes most communities are pro-police in principle, they jsut don't trust them, and rightfully so. As above the Tories talk about crime and fighting it, but it's them who actually did defund the police over the past decade. Again the Tories have no solutions and don't adddress their cultural-neo liberal divide in policy.

Crime has been falling for awhile (not looking it all up, maybe some specific crimes are rising, I know cyber crime is). It's an issue that polls well for a particular type of swing voter both the Tories and Labour are targeting. What these swing voters imagine from "get tough on crime" is police on the street in neighbourhoods that aren't theirs and arresting people who aren't their children. They don't imagine profiling would mean a high amount of drug use was detected at nightclubs and flat parties their children go to, and that their own children would get drug convictions, they don't imagine that because those aren't the people that are ever profiled and targeted by the police. Nor do they imagine more nerds behind computers fighting growing cyber crime.

Much like the immigration debate, it ends up not even being about crime.

I agree some type asof voter is invented. But there are some truth to that. I genuinely believe a center-left or left wing party whose firm on immigration levels, proud of the nation and doesn't keep using identity politics to pour scourn on a people due to what others did in the past and runs the economy well with good econimic investment then it should dominate. Not all of this is Labours fault, it always gets smeered by association to it's "broad church" and pandering to those with those cultural hard left ideas that out off many moderates. But in Denmark they have managed to do this and take power successfully. Blair did this to a large extent, but IMO came too far right and neo-liberal on economic matters.

The government just creates the conditions for investment, they don't run the economy beyond that. The voters the Tories and Labour target are against much of what would create better invest conditions. The only one they support is lowering taxes, and as Sunak has found out lowering corporation tax beyond a certain point didn't do anything. House building? No, not near them. Single Market? No. Spending a lot more on education throughout someone's life especially targeted at the least skilled? Probably no, they don't benefit. More infrastructure spending? No, not near them. Onshore wind? No, not near them.

As far as I can tell they want the UK to be a museum and to somehow have a thriving economy. Those are the voters the Tories and Labour want.

[fishfoodie]

Anyway being indentured would have fucking sucked and reflects most modern forms of slavery. You don't see lads writing 'Ahh don't worry about the whore and that Albanian drunkard made work on the farm. They are actually indentured and that is just A fucking 1'

Is this the next Tory manifesto pledge on modern slavery?

It may also figure in the next pay offer to the nurses unions

[SaintK]

Yay for voter suppression!

It really is scandalous!

In the Commons Rachel Maclean, the levelling up minister, has still refused to give a clear answer to Clive Betts’ question about whether people who are told at the door of a polling station by a “meeter and greeter” that they won’t be able to vote without photo ID, and who then leave, will be recorded.

Pressed again for an answer on this, she says that data on people who are turned away because they don’t have the right ID, and who then return with the right ID, will be recorded by the clerk at the desk where ballot papers are issued.

[dpedin]

The Irish didn't suffer slavery, which means being owned by someone on a heredity basis (after the initial slave is taken, the rest are born into it). There was indentured labour, which meant a contract freely entered into (although of course, someone has to be desperate to enter into it, and the English ravaged Ireland, so how free it was is debatable), which ended after a set time (usually 7 or so years) after which the individual got capital and/or land in the colony. The Irish were indentured in the West Indies and were later fully replaced by African slaves. Indians were also indentured in SA and Fiji. There were also Irish unwillingly deported to colonies as prisoners (but again, the English basically destroyed Ireland, so being guilty of a "crime" becomes debatable).

The Irish slave thing is used in the US to say whites were slaves too (many of the indentured Irish descendants ended up in the South), to try and diminish black slavery.

I wasn't aware of the Jewish slave owners thing. Looks like black Americans competing on the victim totem pole. Maybe not just an American thing though, Wiley was making anti-Semitic statements years before Kanye and on a similar theme.

Yes they did suffer slavery in the likes of the Ottoman empire. Just because some white nationalist pricks have used it as an example to undermine the scale and experiences of Africans doesn't change it. I didn't for example say it mirrored the experience but rather they were slaves. They were. That has been the central pillar of the argument against Irish slavery: it didn't mirror the African experience. Yeah cool it didn't

The only times I've seen it come up is from white Southerners in the US, nearly all the indentured or their descendants ending up in the South particularly the Carolinas. South Carolina being the first to seceded and a founding member of the Confederacy, most of its black population was enslaved. So you get an incongruous situation where whites today quite keen on the Confederacy will mention it.

Yes the Ottoman slave trade existed, but that targeted all non-Muslims they could reach. They valued white slaves above black slaves, black slaves were often castrated. Which meant a lot of the slaves came from Eastern Europe, because it was easier to reach over the Black Sea (and Crimea was Muslim). Most of the descendants are now Arab (there were cases of people taken returning to their homes, usually a long time after and minus family members, there's one quite crazy story of someone from Iceland of all places).

Victimhood is used to make political points, that's how it tends to work. It's most powerful when there's living populations descended from those that suffered the crimes and an existing state that committed them. It's shit but that's how it works, take it from a white South African.

None of that's really the case with the Ottomans, the slave descendants were just absorbed into those populations. It's why the Irish love a rebel song about the British, but does a "Come Out Ye Ottomans" exist? You could sing "Rule Britannia" if none exists?

I don't think it was on the same scale as the Atlantic slave trade but some Irish people would have ended up as slaves in the Ottoman Empire courtesy of the Barbary pirates in the 16th and 17th centuries.

I've tried to look into the scale before, numbers are very hard to get at. Lots of eunuchs, and lots of guessing. It would make sense if it was larger than the Atlantic trade given the closer geography.

I've played golf in South Caroline numerous times and it can be very embarrassing for a Scot. Many courses are built on old plantations - cotton, tobacco, indigo - and have signs with some local history. They almost all go along the same lines ie 'This course is built on an old cotton plantation which had over 400 slaves and was run by the Robertson family from Aberdeen'. Some actually have slave graveyards, now tended and protected, on the courses. Also many courses are named after Scottish links - Aberdeen, True Blue, Caledonia, Glen Dornoch, Thistle, etc. Had a brilliant taxi driver who looked after us for the week, big black guy who it turned out was named Cameron McPherson, turned out his great granny was 'friends' with the slave driver. We Scots left our mark in South Carolina and I am not sure it is one we should be proud of!

[tabascoboy]

Christ alive, when even a toerag like Gullis finds your comments distasteful then how unpleasant a human being are you?

[I like neeps]

It's a shame they didn't force Starmer to answer what countries don't have those values. British values .. what a load of boloney.

[Happyhooker]

It's a shame they didn't force Starmer to answer what countries don't have those values. British values .. what a load of boloney.

Why saying does britain having those values (whatever they are) preclude other countries also those values?

He was asked a question and answered it.
Edit - i agree he could have taken a different tack

[C69]

So there is a schism in the NHS staff council regarding the newest pay offer.

Unison the RCM and the CSP voted for the deal and the RCN and SOR against.
The EGM on May 2nd is going to interesting especially given the Court ruling to truncate the RCNs strike.

The leadership of the RCN are being hammered atm as rightly so over their underhand deal with the Tories.
Which has somewhat backfired after the recent Court ruling.

[_Os_]

I've played golf in South Caroline numerous times and it can be very embarrassing for a Scot. Many courses are built on old plantations - cotton, tobacco, indigo - and have signs with some local history. They almost all go along the same lines ie 'This course is built on an old cotton plantation which had over 400 slaves and was run by the Robertson family from Aberdeen'. Some actually have slave graveyards, now tended and protected, on the courses. Also many courses are named after Scottish links - Aberdeen, True Blue, Caledonia, Glen Dornoch, Thistle, etc. Had a brilliant taxi driver who looked after us for the week, big black guy who it turned out was named Cameron McPherson, turned out his great granny was 'friends' with the slave driver. We Scots left our mark in South Carolina and I am not sure it is one we should be proud of!

The history of the Antebellum South and before then (17th/18th century) in the South and West Indies, is fascinating.

It had very heavy Celtic influence. As you say there were a lot of Scots too and not just Irish (often getting there the same way, indentured or deported). There were also just stragglers shipped out from anywhere in the British Isles. Thomas Sowell (a black American conservative writer) has a theory that the South was so heavily Celtic, that the slave populations assimilated into that culture and what is understood as "black American culture" today is actually a version of rebel Celtic culture.

Goes back to my earlier large (but still abridged) paragraph on how race was used and changed through the colonial period. In the early period (17th century), there were Celts working in conditions arguably similar to that of slaves (as ever EverReady pointed out, but it still doesn't make them actual slaves though). Then those same people (and new arrivals) were elevated to foremen above African slaves but still working for the planation owner. Then they were the planation owners. Race and the values attached to it start out to some degree fluid in the 17th century (eg at the time, whites were working in plantations in the West Indies and a mixed race man was governing in the Cape), but by the 19th century race/racism has become a much more fixed hierarchical idea as we know it today.

I do find it amusing the most rebellious states were also the most Celtic. You guys always want to secede from the union!

[tabascoboy]

The Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill was voted down in the House of Lords yesterday (26 April), but experts warn it could still become law before the summer.

The bill – which will introduce minimum service levels that must be met during industrial action – saw the House of Lords vote by 221 to 197, favouring a consultation and the publishing of an impact assessment before it becomes legislation.

Julia Kermode, founder of IWORK, called the voting down a “huge victory” for workers’ rights. “Introducing a law that stops workers from striking would have eroded workers' rights and human rights, preventing desperate people from having their voices heard,” she said.

[fishfoodie]

Christ alive, when even a toerag like Gullis finds your comments distasteful then how unpleasant a human being are you?

Part of a Government that gets praised by a Neo-Facist ??

Meloni praises Sunak’s immigration policies on visit to No 10

Far-right Italian prime minister in London for ‘new beginning’ aiming at deeper and wider alliance between the countries

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... t-to-no-10

[Yeeb]

We'll all fight like rats in a sack once they're gone.

In 1997 Labour came in on an economic upturn, people wanting change and optimistic. Whatever the mood music is it's not "things can only get better" euphoria. Probably Labour comes in and no one is particularly happy after not that long.

Agreed, very unclear how Labour are going to improve anything. They're just as reactionary as the Tories at this point.

That's exactly the line the Tories are desperate for you to believe! They are desperate to sell the 'all politicians are shite but because we talk posh, went to a Red Brick Uni to study PPE and have three houses' we are better than you and should retain political power. JRM is the epitome of this message. Get the bastards out and lets see what the other parties can do, it can't be much worse and if Labour repeat what the did last time at least the NHS will get better, child poverty will reduce and public services will work!

How exactly did labour make NHS better last time they were in ? They brought in PFI for medical needs, trusts and payment by results , which seem to have been broadly terrible for nhs. See also education, public housing , roads and rail…
Child poverty was deffo one of their successes and one of Blair’s main pledges iirc - shame it was partly achieved by unsustainable social payments helping debt to soar & resulting in damaging austerity cuts (even I think these went way too far) and massaging the figure by changing the housing costs calculation.
Somehow thinking labour will do any better after next GE is somewhat wishful thinking and not really backed up by recent history, Tories have done such a bad job post Cameron though they do need to be kicked into touch for a while.

[Yeeb]

I've played golf in South Caroline numerous times and it can be very embarrassing for a Scot. Many courses are built on old plantations - cotton, tobacco, indigo - and have signs with some local history. They almost all go along the same lines ie 'This course is built on an old cotton plantation which had over 400 slaves and was run by the Robertson family from Aberdeen'. Some actually have slave graveyards, now tended and protected, on the courses. Also many courses are named after Scottish links - Aberdeen, True Blue, Caledonia, Glen Dornoch, Thistle, etc. Had a brilliant taxi driver who looked after us for the week, big black guy who it turned out was named Cameron McPherson, turned out his great granny was 'friends' with the slave driver. We Scots left our mark in South Carolina and I am not sure it is one we should be proud of!

The history of the Antebellum South and before then (17th/18th century) in the South and West Indies, is fascinating.

It had very heavy Celtic influence. As you say there were a lot of Scots too and not just Irish (often getting there the same way, indentured or deported). There were also just stragglers shipped out from anywhere in the British Isles. Thomas Sowell (a black American conservative writer) has a theory that the South was so heavily Celtic, that the slave populations assimilated into that culture and what is understood as "black American culture" today is actually a version of rebel Celtic culture.

Goes back to my earlier large (but still abridged) paragraph on how race was used and changed through the colonial period. In the early period (17th century), there were Celts working in conditions arguably similar to that of slaves (as ever EverReady pointed out, but it still doesn't make them actual slaves though). Then those same people (and new arrivals) were elevated to foremen above African slaves but still working for the planation owner. Then they were the planation owners. Race and the values attached to it start out to some degree fluid in the 17th century (eg at the time, whites were working in plantations in the West Indies and a mixed race man was governing in the Cape), but by the 19th century race/racism has become a much more fixed hierarchical idea as we know it today.

I do find it amusing the most rebellious states were also the most Celtic. You guys always want to secede from the union!

Pesky celts have always been troublesome , and destined to be ruled by someone else - romans, Saxons, vikings, English, Alchohol, nearly Germans, heroin and now some of them Brussels.

[dpedin]

I've played golf in South Caroline numerous times and it can be very embarrassing for a Scot. Many courses are built on old plantations - cotton, tobacco, indigo - and have signs with some local history. They almost all go along the same lines ie 'This course is built on an old cotton plantation which had over 400 slaves and was run by the Robertson family from Aberdeen'. Some actually have slave graveyards, now tended and protected, on the courses. Also many courses are named after Scottish links - Aberdeen, True Blue, Caledonia, Glen Dornoch, Thistle, etc. Had a brilliant taxi driver who looked after us for the week, big black guy who it turned out was named Cameron McPherson, turned out his great granny was 'friends' with the slave driver. We Scots left our mark in South Carolina and I am not sure it is one we should be proud of!

The history of the Antebellum South and before then (17th/18th century) in the South and West Indies, is fascinating.

It had very heavy Celtic influence. As you say there were a lot of Scots too and not just Irish (often getting there the same way, indentured or deported). There were also just stragglers shipped out from anywhere in the British Isles. Thomas Sowell (a black American conservative writer) has a theory that the South was so heavily Celtic, that the slave populations assimilated into that culture and what is understood as "black American culture" today is actually a version of rebel Celtic culture.

Goes back to my earlier large (but still abridged) paragraph on how race was used and changed through the colonial period. In the early period (17th century), there were Celts working in conditions arguably similar to that of slaves (as ever EverReady pointed out, but it still doesn't make them actual slaves though). Then those same people (and new arrivals) were elevated to foremen above African slaves but still working for the planation owner. Then they were the planation owners. Race and the values attached to it start out to some degree fluid in the 17th century (eg at the time, whites were working in plantations in the West Indies and a mixed race man was governing in the Cape), but by the 19th century race/racism has become a much more fixed hierarchical idea as we know it today.

I do find it amusing the most rebellious states were also the most Celtic. You guys always want to secede from the union!

Pesky celts have always been troublesome , and destined to be ruled by someone else - romans, Saxons, vikings, English, Alchohol, nearly Germans, heroin and now some of them Brussels.

Thanks for background info and yes - we Celts have always been troublesome, it's in the genes or is it jeans?

For my info - did the highland clearances in 1750s onwards speed up this process as highlanders were subjected to 'assisted' immigration to US and Aussieland.

[tabascoboy]

Hoping for a domino effect here

[Paddington Bear]

The history of the Antebellum South and before then (17th/18th century) in the South and West Indies, is fascinating.

It had very heavy Celtic influence. As you say there were a lot of Scots too and not just Irish (often getting there the same way, indentured or deported). There were also just stragglers shipped out from anywhere in the British Isles. Thomas Sowell (a black American conservative writer) has a theory that the South was so heavily Celtic, that the slave populations assimilated into that culture and what is understood as "black American culture" today is actually a version of rebel Celtic culture.

Goes back to my earlier large (but still abridged) paragraph on how race was used and changed through the colonial period. In the early period (17th century), there were Celts working in conditions arguably similar to that of slaves (as ever EverReady pointed out, but it still doesn't make them actual slaves though). Then those same people (and new arrivals) were elevated to foremen above African slaves but still working for the planation owner. Then they were the planation owners. Race and the values attached to it start out to some degree fluid in the 17th century (eg at the time, whites were working in plantations in the West Indies and a mixed race man was governing in the Cape), but by the 19th century race/racism has become a much more fixed hierarchical idea as we know it today.

I do find it amusing the most rebellious states were also the most Celtic. You guys always want to secede from the union!

Pesky celts have always been troublesome , and destined to be ruled by someone else - romans, Saxons, vikings, English, Alchohol, nearly Germans, heroin and now some of them Brussels.

Thanks for background info and yes - we Celts have always been troublesome, it's in the genes or is it jeans?

For my info - did the highland clearances in 1750s onwards speed up this process as highlanders were subjected to 'assisted' immigration to US and Aussieland.

Yes - and interestingly newly arrived highlanders in the American South were a bulwark of support for the crown during the American Revolution, marshalled by Flora MacDonald. The last highland charge took place for King George in America, not at Culloden. History is funny.

[SaintK]

Three year old Wilf must have dressed the blonde slug this morning!

[tabascoboy]

[inactionman]

Three year old Wilf must have dressed the blonde slug this morning!

The clothes bollox is an affectation. Oh I am such an absent minded professor type. Yeah Boris exactly like that

I saw the clip without any sound or context, and initially thought he'd been caught with his pants down and was fleeing the scene.

That, at least, would not be an affectation.

[SaintK]

Yep a real third world tinpot dictatorship trying to manipulate who the head prefect speaks to and reports on what he says
Well played the Scottish press for showing them up!

[SaintK]

So, Coffey's constituency is as full of shit as she is!!

E coli levels from treated sewage discharges into the River Deben in Thérèse Coffey’s constituency are far above legal limits for bathing water status, campaigners say.
As the environment secretary was due to visit Martlesham water treatment works in her constituency on the Deben in Suffolk on Friday, previously unpublished data given to campaigners by Anglian Water reveals extremely high levels of E coli in the river.

https://www.theguardian.com/environmen ... ta-shows

[Tichtheid]

I've played golf in South Caroline numerous times and it can be very embarrassing for a Scot. Many courses are built on old plantations - cotton, tobacco, indigo - and have signs with some local history. They almost all go along the same lines ie 'This course is built on an old cotton plantation which had over 400 slaves and was run by the Robertson family from Aberdeen'. Some actually have slave graveyards, now tended and protected, on the courses. Also many courses are named after Scottish links - Aberdeen, True Blue, Caledonia, Glen Dornoch, Thistle, etc. Had a brilliant taxi driver who looked after us for the week, big black guy who it turned out was named Cameron McPherson, turned out his great granny was 'friends' with the slave driver. We Scots left our mark in South Carolina and I am not sure it is one we should be proud of!

The history of the Antebellum South and before then (17th/18th century) in the South and West Indies, is fascinating.

It had very heavy Celtic influence. As you say there were a lot of Scots too and not just Irish (often getting there the same way, indentured or deported). There were also just stragglers shipped out from anywhere in the British Isles. Thomas Sowell (a black American conservative writer) has a theory that the South was so heavily Celtic, that the slave populations assimilated into that culture and what is understood as "black American culture" today is actually a version of rebel Celtic culture.

Goes back to my earlier large (but still abridged) paragraph on how race was used and changed through the colonial period. In the early period (17th century), there were Celts working in conditions arguably similar to that of slaves (as ever EverReady pointed out, but it still doesn't make them actual slaves though). Then those same people (and new arrivals) were elevated to foremen above African slaves but still working for the planation owner. Then they were the planation owners. Race and the values attached to it start out to some degree fluid in the 17th century (eg at the time, whites were working in plantations in the West Indies and a mixed race man was governing in the Cape), but by the 19th century race/racism has become a much more fixed hierarchical idea as we know it today.

I do find it amusing the most rebellious states were also the most Celtic. You guys always want to secede from the union!

There some interesting reading in this thread.
Good stuff.


There is a piece here about the conditions miners faced in Scotland, the term used in one letter in the article is "bond-servant", which only means one thing, really.

http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/429.html

[Hal Jordan]

Sharp becomes another casualty of Johnson. He's like Trump, a trail of broken bodies behind him as he fixes his sights on the next idiot who buys him lunch. 

N.B. This in no way implies any sympathy for Sharp.

[fishfoodie]

Sharp becomes another casualty of Johnson. He's like Trump, a trail of broken bodies behind him as he fixes his sights on the next idiot who buys him lunch. 

N.B. This in no way implies any sympathy for Sharp.

and just like the other scumbag, nothing happens to the instigator, instead all the shit hits the facilitor

[Hal Jordan]

Sharp becomes another casualty of Johnson. He's like Trump, a trail of broken bodies behind him as he fixes his sights on the next idiot who buys him lunch. 

N.B. This in no way implies any sympathy for Sharp.

and just like the other scumbag, nothing happens to the instigator, instead all the shit hits the facilitor

It's why Johnson keeps doing it. He was somehow sacked up the chain all the way to being Prime Minister, got sacked from there and still has arseholes lining up to give him money and perks.

[C69]

Fyi re NHS strikes.
They are effectively finished, the Staff Council meets next week and the pay deal will be agreed. As the Unions that voted to accept have the majority.
The RCN are fecked and the leadership may face a vote of no confidence soon.

[Biffer]

I've played golf in South Caroline numerous times and it can be very embarrassing for a Scot. Many courses are built on old plantations - cotton, tobacco, indigo - and have signs with some local history. They almost all go along the same lines ie 'This course is built on an old cotton plantation which had over 400 slaves and was run by the Robertson family from Aberdeen'. Some actually have slave graveyards, now tended and protected, on the courses. Also many courses are named after Scottish links - Aberdeen, True Blue, Caledonia, Glen Dornoch, Thistle, etc. Had a brilliant taxi driver who looked after us for the week, big black guy who it turned out was named Cameron McPherson, turned out his great granny was 'friends' with the slave driver. We Scots left our mark in South Carolina and I am not sure it is one we should be proud of!

The history of the Antebellum South and before then (17th/18th century) in the South and West Indies, is fascinating.

It had very heavy Celtic influence. As you say there were a lot of Scots too and not just Irish (often getting there the same way, indentured or deported). There were also just stragglers shipped out from anywhere in the British Isles. Thomas Sowell (a black American conservative writer) has a theory that the South was so heavily Celtic, that the slave populations assimilated into that culture and what is understood as "black American culture" today is actually a version of rebel Celtic culture.

Goes back to my earlier large (but still abridged) paragraph on how race was used and changed through the colonial period. In the early period (17th century), there were Celts working in conditions arguably similar to that of slaves (as ever EverReady pointed out, but it still doesn't make them actual slaves though). Then those same people (and new arrivals) were elevated to foremen above African slaves but still working for the planation owner. Then they were the planation owners. Race and the values attached to it start out to some degree fluid in the 17th century (eg at the time, whites were working in plantations in the West Indies and a mixed race man was governing in the Cape), but by the 19th century race/racism has become a much more fixed hierarchical idea as we know it today.

I do find it amusing the most rebellious states were also the most Celtic. You guys always want to secede from the union!

There some interesting reading in this thread.
Good stuff.


There is a piece here about the conditions miners faced in Scotland, the term used in one letter in the article is "bond-servant", which only means one thing, really.

http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/429.html

Bond servant, indentured labour etc are all little better than slavery, but they’re not slavery. You aren’t actually owned by another person to do with as they please. It’s fundamentally wrong, and disregards the experience of slavery, to just equate the two. It’s very much something that’s done by white power groups in the US to try to counter black rights groups, so we should always be careful nut to consider them the same when talking about Scottish history.

[Tichtheid]

There some interesting reading in this thread.
Good stuff.


There is a piece here about the conditions miners faced in Scotland, the term used in one letter in the article is "bond-servant", which only means one thing, really.

http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/429.html

Bond servant, indentured labour etc are all little better than slavery, but they’re not slavery. You aren’t actually owned by another person to do with as they please. It’s fundamentally wrong, and disregards the experience of slavery, to just equate the two. It’s very much something that’s done by white power groups in the US to try to counter black rights groups, so we should always be careful nut to consider them the same when talking about Scottish history.

The point I was making was not to equate slavery and bonded servitude, though the lived experience of those miners and salters was that their labour was legally owned by a person who was referred to in law as their Master. They could not work for anyone else under pain of huge fines for the other employers and corporal punishment for the labourer. The initial act came into being in 1606 and wasn't repealed until 1799.

The servitude was not legally inherited, but there was much coercion to ensure children of the servants would follow their parents' footsteps. I was born in a town called Bo'ness in West Lothian, the town is mentioned in the article I posted. Every June they hold a children's parade, the origins of which are the celebrations of the act in 1799 which brought freedom to the colliers and salters.

There were slave owners who came from Scotland, just as there were slave owners who came from Ireland, the point about Irish indentured service was what made me point out the situation for some in Scotland.

Slavery was and is an abomination, I don't think pointing out how some people were forced to live in Scotland lessens that in any way

[fishfoodie]

Epic, Epic, Epic fuckup !!!

I can see SF not attending the ceremony as a result of this, & handed another victory by the completely tone deaf plums in London.

Coronation: Public asked to swear allegiance to King Charles

People watching the Coronation will be invited to join a "chorus of millions" to swear allegiance to the King and his heirs, organisers say.

The public pledge is one of several striking changes to the ancient ceremony revealed on Saturday.

In a coronation full of firsts, female clergy will play a prominent role, and the King himself will pray out loud.

The Christian service will also see religious leaders from other faiths have an active part for the first time.

The Coronation on Saturday will be the first to incorporate other languages spoken in Britain, with a hymn set to be sung in Welsh, Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic.

Despite changes designed to reflect other faiths, the three oaths the King will take and form the heart of the service remain unchanged, including the promise to maintain "the Protestant Reformed Religion".
....

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65435426

How many years is it since Catholic emancipation, & these fucking idiots still haven't realized that there's more than one religion in the UK, & when you're already starting with an un-elected HoS, to go past that & start demanding everyone swear some kind of oath of allegiance is piling insanity upon insanity.

[C69]

I swear that I will pay true allegiance to Your Majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."

GET FUCKED

[Sandstorm]

I swear that I will pay true allegiance to Your Majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."

GET FUCKED

[tabascoboy]

I swear that I will pay true allegiance to Your Majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."

[GogLais]

He can thank me for letting him be my sovereign.

[Blackmac]

Epic, Epic, Epic fuckup !!!

I can see SF not attending the ceremony as a result of this, & handed another victory by the completely tone deaf plums in London.

Coronation: Public asked to swear allegiance to King Charles

People watching the Coronation will be invited to join a "chorus of millions" to swear allegiance to the King and his heirs, organisers say.

The public pledge is one of several striking changes to the ancient ceremony revealed on Saturday.

In a coronation full of firsts, female clergy will play a prominent role, and the King himself will pray out loud.

The Christian service will also see religious leaders from other faiths have an active part for the first time.

The Coronation on Saturday will be the first to incorporate other languages spoken in Britain, with a hymn set to be sung in Welsh, Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic.

Despite changes designed to reflect other faiths, the three oaths the King will take and form the heart of the service remain unchanged, including the promise to maintain "the Protestant Reformed Religion".
....

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65435426

How many years is it since Catholic emancipation, & these fucking idiots still haven't realized that there's more than one religion in the UK, & when you're already starting with an un-elected HoS, to go past that & start demanding everyone swear some kind of oath of allegiance is piling insanity upon insanity.

I think that this is very much an attempt to let the blue rinse brigade feel involved, but seems very misguided when Charles himself seems to want to downplay and modernise the whole ceremony.

[GogLais]

Ms GL and I are worried that Alexa may be eavesdropping at homage time.

[dpedin]

I swear that I will pay true allegiance to Your Majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."

GET FUCKED

I'm not sure I will be pledging my allegiance to the King, it might put me off my putting! Daughter who lives in London has escaped to Italy for the week to avoid the incessant royalty shite. Son is planning to be on the top of a Munro.

What really gets my goat is this fawning at the feet of a very dysfunctional family which, for example, includes:

- Charles shagging his married bird behind his new wife Diana's back
- Charles accepting bags of cash for 'charities' from dodgy individuals/politicians
- Charles personal office involved in cash for honours disgrace
- New wife Camilla shagging Charles whilst married with young kids and apparently with her husband knowing about it
- Philip a well known womaniser who had a number of extra marital affairs
- Drunk, chain smoker Princess Margaret who shagged her gardener, amongst others, whilst married and spent most of her time sozzled on her mates private island
- Andrew the paedo who was besties with and regular visitor of a convicted child groomer, trafficker and paedophile and his fixer/muse Maxwell.
- Sarah another who also had numerous affairs whilst married and prior to divorce
- Andrew and Sarah involved in dodgy housing transactions involving crooked benefactors from Kazhakstan
- Their kids Beatrice and Eugenie on numerous expensive holidays and hugely expensive weddings they obviously can't afford themselves which we pay for

I could go on, the list is endless. They are more Sunday Sport celebrities than anyone I admire or would align myself to and resent financially supporting them through my taxes! They are just a bunch of spoiled posh brats who pretend to care about this country whilst stuffing their pockets and living a life of luxury at our expense. I really struggle to understand how folk think they are to be admired?

Old Liz seemed, at least on the face of it, a more decent person but no different to my late Grannie who worked hard all her life in the Dundee jute mills. The main difference between them was my Grannie put money on the odd racehorse whereas Liz owned them!

[fishfoodie]

Would this be a good time to remind the population that they're actually krauts ?

"I didn't vote for Brexit so I could swear allegiance to some jug-earred KRAUT !!!"