Stop voting for fucking Tories

[inactionman]

Yeah the general principle the thread is getting at is fine, no real disagreement here. My point was more specific and related to the more recent announcement on cutting down spousal visas for undergrads, which really doesn't seem to me to be a controversial thing to do.

Cutting the visa for children and spouses of students will have an impact on international student numbers, and therefore it will impact on fee revenue
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... nt-numbers


From the point of view of someone who does not trust one word this government utters, to me this smacks of being part of the "stop the boats" rhetoric without taking into account any benefit having foreign students bring to the institutions and fellow students, and that is at best.

At worst it's a deliberate attempt to cut foreign student fees as part of an attack on woke academics and universities - they've already gone after the judiciary, the electoral process, the right to protest etc - is it such a stretch to think they wouldn't go after academics and universities?
There are already a myriad of exaggerated stories of cancel culture at universities, this is just another step.

In the absence of adequate government funding, I understand universities milking international students for all that they're worth, but it's not a model we should be encouraging and the standard to which many of these students are being educated is risible a lot of the time. Particularly at institutions outside of the big names/top 20.

A friend of mine worked for Westminster uni admissions for a bit and their business program was almost exclusively foreign students who had lower equivalent grades than their UK counterparts and were rubber stamped through their English 101 prep courses regardless of whether they were actually up to snuff. They also received a lot more grading leeway and were coached through their degrees to an extent that UK students weren't because they need those students to get their qualification and maintain the rep of the UK as a good place to go for one, lest the stream of cash dry up.

From what he heard and what I've read elsewhere, Westminster was far from the only institution donning the kid gloves for its cash cows.

On the periphery of this is the thorny question of how many universities do we actually need? Should they really exist if a pillar of their survival is to effectively give degrees away in direct exchange for cash, with the only demand being that foreign students go through the motions of acquiring a degree? Might it not be better to contract the number and ensure that they are all elite centres of learning.

This is more a point about overseas entry into UK universities than Tory immigration policy, but I think it lays out where I'd place emphasis if I were setting criteria. It also lets me rant about one of my real bugbears of my time in academia.

I worked at Bath Uni and supervised a fair few postgrad MSc students, both UK and overseas. The students who followed on from Bath undergrad courses were generally of a really high quality, the international students were totally variable and in some cases incompetent - far too many could not converse in English, had to be spoon-fed theory, simply repeated back to me what I'd directed them towards in their research work (a real problem in an MSc programme).

The frustrating thing is, for MEng undergrad and UK MSc/MPhil postgrad, the standards are high and underperforming students were easy to remove - in fact, many dropped out voluntarily in first year of undergrad, or in early periods of postgrad, as the required standards were made very, very clear and were enforced. For international students at MSc it was almost impossible to remove them unless they didn't actually attend. I recommended one lad was removed during the first quarter of his MSc, and he was allowed through to graduation.

It turns out all that a significant volume of overseas students wanted was a UK university degree on their CV, and the actual content of the degree (and scope of personal development) didn't really matter - this has a reinforcing effect, that such students would seek prestigious institutes with non-commensurately low entry and participation standards for foreign students. It also meant that many such students had no ambition to stay in the UK, instead they wanted to leverage their shiny (but almost worthless in a practical sense) degree in their home nation - it wasn't really an immigration issue, which I see as a bit of a red herring here.

I understand the desire to raise income and to increase international footprint, but it can't trump academic rigour and standard. I agree entirely that we should focus upon quality, not quantity- many universities have a widening participation agenda (my wife lectures nursing and this is definitely the case for that sector) and that's fine, but you can't really do both.

There's an element of self-interest as well - it's common for researchers to use tutored postgrad research for elements of research such as literature review, and you simply can't do this with the low quality many international students. They go from an academic resource to a drag on resource. There was simply no benefit for either student or institute (outside of £30k+ pa fee) for the student being there.

I'd also point out that many UK universities have invested in overseas campuses, and I query whether this is for academic breadth or just to bring in money.

Anyway, tying this to tory immigration policy - I'd think Universities should be 'encouraged' to set rigorous entry standards as a default, for reasons of academic excellence ('protecting the product') as much as anything else, and this has the outcome that overseas students will both benefit from the experience and be a benefit to the university and UK. Student number are already higher than most universities can realistically deal with, and we shouldn't be adding to that burden solely for the fees. But don't ban or block the high quality international students.

[inactionman]

If we are talking about the "Top 20" unis we are pretty much talking about the Russell Group, they have this to say

The Russell Group’s 24 members are world-class, research-intensive universities. They are unique institutions, each with their own history and ethos, but they share some distinguishing characteristics.

Our universities believe people and ideas are the key to meeting global challenges. Through world-class research and education they are helping to create a dynamic economy, stronger communities and a better future for the UK. They maintain the very best research, an outstanding teaching and learning experience and unrivalled links with local and national business and the public sector.

Russell Group universities have huge social, economic and cultural impacts locally, across the UK and around the globe:

They produce more than two-thirds of the world-leading research produced in UK universities and support more than 260,000 jobs across the country.
They inject nearly £87 billion into the national economy every year.
In 2018-19, 446,450 undergraduates and 155,655 postgraduates were studying at a Russell Group university.
Our members attract students and staff from around the world and work with major multinational businesses and international organisations:

32% of students are of non-UK nationality, attracted to our universities by the quality, relevance and reputation of research.
Russell Group members also have a strong role and influence within their regional and local communities, collaborate with businesses on joint research projects and supply highly-qualified and highly-motivated graduates to the local workforce.

The Russell Group's 32% non-UK students is much higher (22%) than non-RG universities

Overall there are getting on for 700K foreign students, well over 90% of whom leave by or before the date of expiry of their visas. They are not leaving people behind, their dependents go with them.

The dependents are yet another dead cat thrown on the table, it's not a significant issue and disguises the real motivation behind their policies. Even if you don't think the Tories are attacking the Lefty universities (and my whole point at the beginning of this is that there will be more and more stories about woke academics etc coming to the fore in the next 18 months), it must be obvious that this is just another part of the narrative of blaming foreigners for whatever ills are facing the electorate, Shirley?
It was the Polish, it was the Romanians, it was the EU, it was the small boats and currently it's the children and spouses of students

As I mentioned in my post above, that was certainly my experience.

Many international students were just after a prestigious degree, not to move to another country. Very few remained in the UK post-graduation

It doesn't really make sense, as a degree is transitory anyway - it's a fixed period that can't really be extended (if the student transitions to researcher, as sometimes happens, there's a visa pathway for that anyway).

[Lobby]

If we are talking about the "Top 20" unis we are pretty much talking about the Russell Group, they have this to say

The Russell Group’s 24 members are world-class, research-intensive universities. They are unique institutions, each with their own history and ethos, but they share some distinguishing characteristics.

Our universities believe people and ideas are the key to meeting global challenges. Through world-class research and education they are helping to create a dynamic economy, stronger communities and a better future for the UK. They maintain the very best research, an outstanding teaching and learning experience and unrivalled links with local and national business and the public sector.

Russell Group universities have huge social, economic and cultural impacts locally, across the UK and around the globe:

They produce more than two-thirds of the world-leading research produced in UK universities and support more than 260,000 jobs across the country.
They inject nearly £87 billion into the national economy every year.
In 2018-19, 446,450 undergraduates and 155,655 postgraduates were studying at a Russell Group university.
Our members attract students and staff from around the world and work with major multinational businesses and international organisations:

32% of students are of non-UK nationality, attracted to our universities by the quality, relevance and reputation of research.
Russell Group members also have a strong role and influence within their regional and local communities, collaborate with businesses on joint research projects and supply highly-qualified and highly-motivated graduates to the local workforce.

The Russell Group's 32% non-UK students is much higher (22%) than non-RG universities

Overall there are getting on for 700K foreign students, well over 90% of whom leave by or before the date of expiry of their visas. They are not leaving people behind, their dependents go with them.

The dependents are yet another dead cat thrown on the table, it's not a significant issue and disguises the real motivation behind their policies. Even if you don't think the Tories are attacking the Lefty universities (and my whole point at the beginning of this is that there will be more and more stories about woke academics etc coming to the fore in the next 18 months), it must be obvious that this is just another part of the narrative of blaming foreigners for whatever ills are facing the electorate, Shirley?
It was the Polish, it was the Romanians, it was the EU, it was the small boats and currently it's the children and spouses of students

While I don't doubt that the Tories will continue to wage their phony war on 'woke' academics and students, I'm not sure that this attack on overseas student visas is part of that 'war'.

During their entire period in power, this Tory government has been using the issue of student visas as their primary response every time they get caught out in not controlling immigration numbers in the way they had promised. Back in 2011 Theresa May tried to drastically restrict the numbers of students coming to the UK as part of her hostile environment. As she said at the time:

"it has become very apparent that the old student visa regime failed to control immigration and failed to protect legitimate students from poor quality colleges. The changes I am announcing today re-focus the student route as a temporary one, available to only the brightest and best. The new system is designed to ensure students come for a limited period, to study not work, and make a positive contribution while they are here."

Sound familiar? In my view, successive Home Secretaries have concentrated their ire on student visas (despite the demonstrably positive benefit to the Country that overseas students bring, not least in subsidising the entire HE system in the UK) because it was one of the few areas of immigration that they can control through the visa system. Its a red herring designed to distract attention from their failure to have an effective asylum system or to deal with illegal immigration.

[sockwithaticket]

While the top universities are far more likely to have the cream of foreign students, they're also hardly likely to outright state "We're just using them for their money".

Admittedly it's over a decade since I graduated, but pretty much everyone in my friendship circle went to Russell Group or other top 20 unis and most of us had direct experience of foreign students whose level of English really should have precluded them from study. I've since taught children with literacy issues who showed better command of the language than the guy I got paired up with for one of my history modules. A mate of mine who did Engineering at Nottingham basically had to do a 3 person group project by himself because the quality of what the two foreign students were producing would've tanked his grade and so on. Pair that with the more recent experience of my friend who works in the sector and I'm sceptical of platitude-laden press releases.

Of course we also all had direct experience of foreign students who absolutely did cut the mustard and fully deserved to be there.

I don't doubt that that the dependents thing is a bit of a dead cat, although as Paddington said the sharp spike of them in the span of a few years certainly bears looking at as any comparative anomaly does, and this government is no friend to education. I was more focusing on the idea of foreign students as funding and how that's not really working very well unless your definition = universities getting money while churning out students who've barely learnt anything and effectively just been handed a diploma.

Edit - although, as inactionman states, it doesn't massively impact the UK since most of these students just want the diploma from an English university to be able to take home and point at. However, you would think that if we keep sending them back having barely been educated to get the piece of paper, the reputation of out institutions will suffer and the flow of monied up students might slow, which isn't good if the funding model is predicated upon certain numbers of them.

[tabascoboy]

Hoyle finds he has balls in PMQ, but still giving Sunak a free ride to not answer any question

[Paddington Bear]

everyone in my friendship circle went to Russell Group or other top 20 unis and most of us had direct experience of foreign students whose level of English really should have precluded them from study.

Yes! Exactly this - you can't have interacted with many international students in the recent-ish past and seriously think we have a net inflow of c.500,000 of the world's top students every year. Once you get on the ground you can't help but notice it is a scam.
Whilst there is a significant amount invested in pretending this isn't happening, in the end it will devalue British degrees and the whole university sector if it is allowed to continue.
And this is before we get back to how we house and look after this massively increased number of students in a country allergic to building, but as ever with any immigration debate no one on any side really cares about the conditions that these people are required to live in.

[petej]

Pretty much this. I think it's hard to articulate what's going on at unis without having some first hand perspective, the whole thing is such a blatant scam it's unreal. In reality they are selling visas not degrees.

I'm taking a professional course right now which is allegedly top of the market, I've come across multiple people who can't speak English and significant leeway being given to international students, particularly with regard to cheating in assignments, which is absolutely rife. The whole thing is a pisstake that I suspect the university leadership is well aware of.

Foreign non-EU students were granted surprising leeway and not booted off their courses 15-20 or so years ago when I was at uni so I doubt this has improved. Our government has no intention of actually doing anything about reducing immigration beyond making lots of noise.

[Paddington Bear]

If we are talking about the "Top 20" unis we are pretty much talking about the Russell Group, they have this to say

The Russell Group’s 24 members are world-class, research-intensive universities. They are unique institutions, each with their own history and ethos, but they share some distinguishing characteristics.

Our universities believe people and ideas are the key to meeting global challenges. Through world-class research and education they are helping to create a dynamic economy, stronger communities and a better future for the UK. They maintain the very best research, an outstanding teaching and learning experience and unrivalled links with local and national business and the public sector.

Russell Group universities have huge social, economic and cultural impacts locally, across the UK and around the globe:

They produce more than two-thirds of the world-leading research produced in UK universities and support more than 260,000 jobs across the country.
They inject nearly £87 billion into the national economy every year.
In 2018-19, 446,450 undergraduates and 155,655 postgraduates were studying at a Russell Group university.
Our members attract students and staff from around the world and work with major multinational businesses and international organisations:

32% of students are of non-UK nationality, attracted to our universities by the quality, relevance and reputation of research.
Russell Group members also have a strong role and influence within their regional and local communities, collaborate with businesses on joint research projects and supply highly-qualified and highly-motivated graduates to the local workforce.

The Russell Group's 32% non-UK students is much higher (22%) than non-RG universities

Overall there are getting on for 700K foreign students, well over 90% of whom leave by or before the date of expiry of their visas. They are not leaving people behind, their dependents go with them.

The dependents are yet another dead cat thrown on the table, it's not a significant issue and disguises the real motivation behind their policies. Even if you don't think the Tories are attacking the Lefty universities (and my whole point at the beginning of this is that there will be more and more stories about woke academics etc coming to the fore in the next 18 months), it must be obvious that this is just another part of the narrative of blaming foreigners for whatever ills are facing the electorate, Shirley?
It was the Polish, it was the Romanians, it was the EU, it was the small boats and currently it's the children and spouses of students

More than one fifth (22%) of all sponsored study related visas granted were to dependants of students (135,788), compared to 6% (16,047) in 2019.

From the Government website. Come on, you're not seriously suggesting that a fifth (!) of international students require a dependent visa as well, particularly given:

Nigeria had the highest number of dependants (60,923) of sponsored study visa holders in 2022, increasing from 1,586 in 2019. Indian nationals had the second highest number of dependants, increasing from 3,135 to 38,990. There were almost 120,000 dependant visas granted to the top 5 nationalities (Nigeria, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka) in 2022.

So leaving aside five countries that have a drastically lower quality of life than here and have a long history of immigration here, there were roughly 16,000 dependent visas given out to students.

Outside of the top 5 nationalities, the increase in proportion was more modest (from 4% to 6%).

These students have purchased visas, not degrees. Let's at least be honest about it. We won't know whether they plan to stay after their visa expires for at least three years, of course, and given the massive recent spike I'd argue strongly that past performance cannot be considered indicative for this.

[yermum]

Radio 4 had an interview with a Nigerian postgraduate student who had come to study an MSc at Cambridge with her young family. She was spending a huge amount of money and would not have come without her family.

Her point was well made that folk like her were the best and brightest with large financial backing. Surely global Britain should be attracting these people….

[sockwithaticket]

Radio 4 had an interview with a Nigerian postgraduate student who had come to study an MSc at Cambridge with her young family. She was spending a huge amount of money and would not have come without her family.

Her point was well made that folk like her were the best and brightest with large financial backing. Surely global Britain should be attracting these people….

Definitely want the best and brightest, but people like that can't possibly account for a rise of some 59,000 dependents from Nigeria alone in the span of 3 years as the figures seem to show.

[_Os_]

In my view, successive Home Secretaries have concentrated their ire on student visas (despite the demonstrably positive benefit to the Country that overseas students bring, not least in subsidising the entire HE system in the UK) because it was one of the few areas of immigration that they can control through the visa system. Its a red herring designed to distract attention from their failure to have an effective asylum system or to deal with illegal immigration.

That's about the sum of it. Immigration is populist rocket fuel, it's not really about the actual facts. To appease the goons the UK government/Home Office goes after what it can, which is anyone playing by the rules, in other words international students and long term residents. in the worst cases legal migrants are turned into illegal migrants. The outcome being that the issue becomes harder to manage and there's no impact on the numbers. The UK now has the toughest visa regime it's ever had and the net migration figures are probably the highest in the entire history of the British Isles (certainly in absolute terms).

The facts on students are clear enough. If international students are reduced, then UK students will have to pay higher fees and/or there'll need to be more tax money pumped into the system, or if neither of those happens and international student numbers decline the quality of the entire UK uni system declines. New graduates already have an effective tax rate of 43%-52% (when student loans are factored in), in conditions where wages have stagnated for over a decade. If fees increase going to university in the UK will become unaffordable for many, but the UK economy will still be services dominated and it'll still be the case a 2:1 is needed to stand any chance of getting onto the career ladder at a decent starting rung. There'll be real costs felt by ordinary British citizens if international student numbers are cut, which is why the Tories set a target (in about 2018?) for increasing the numbers to 600k by 2030. That 600k target has now been met 8 years ahead of schedule and the Education Secretary said she was "hugely proud" of this just last week.

As it goes for the university sector it does for other sectors and immigration generally. The UK's political economy (basically Thatcherism) has more or less failed, it's kept alive by massive waves of migration. The UK's historic position (empire etc), means there'll always be migrants if it wants them. So rather than a difficult conversation (much tougher than the Brexit) about remaking the UK's political economy which will entail some losing out, the UK is instead heading towards needing net 1m immigrants per year as a structural necessity. It's interesting working out net immigration as a % of the UK's population, then comparing that to the % of GDP growth, seems to me a lot of the UK's growth is simply about adding more people. But maybe this isn't strictly failure, one of the models for Thatcherism was Hong Kong, a place which depended on immigrant labour for decades, the difference being they are/were all Chinese so this tends to be ignored by foreigners.

[petej]

In my view, successive Home Secretaries have concentrated their ire on student visas (despite the demonstrably positive benefit to the Country that overseas students bring, not least in subsidising the entire HE system in the UK) because it was one of the few areas of immigration that they can control through the visa system. Its a red herring designed to distract attention from their failure to have an effective asylum system or to deal with illegal immigration.

That's about the sum of it. Immigration is populist rocket fuel, it's not really about the actual facts. To appease the goons the UK government/Home Office goes after what it can, which is anyone playing by the rules, in other words international students and long term residents. in the worst cases legal migrants are turned into illegal migrants. The outcome being that the issue becomes harder to manage and there's no impact on the numbers. The UK now has the toughest visa regime it's ever had and the net migration figures are probably the highest in the entire history of the British Isles (certainly in absolute terms).

The facts on students are clear enough. If international students are reduced, then UK students will have to pay higher fees and/or there'll need to be more tax money pumped into the system, or if neither of those happens and international student numbers decline the quality of the entire UK uni system declines. New graduates already have an effective tax rate of 43%-52% (when student loans are factored in), in conditions where wages have stagnated for over a decade. If fees increase going to university in the UK will become unaffordable for many, but the UK economy will still be services dominated and it'll still be the case a 2:1 is needed to stand any chance of getting onto the career ladder at a decent starting rung. There'll be real costs felt by ordinary British citizens if international student numbers are cut, which is why the Tories set a target (in about 2018?) for increasing the numbers to 600k by 2030. That 600k target has now been met 8 years ahead of schedule and the Education Secretary said she was "hugely proud" of this just last week.

As it goes for the university sector it does for other sectors and immigration generally. The UK's political economy (basically Thatcherism) has more or less failed, it's kept alive by massive waves of migration. The UK's historic position (empire etc), means there'll always be migrants if it wants them. So rather than a difficult conversation (much tougher than the Brexit) about remaking the UK's political economy which will entail some losing out, the UK is instead heading towards needing net 1m immigrants per year as a structural necessity. It's interesting working out net immigration as a % of the UK's population, then comparing that to the % of GDP growth, seems to me a lot of the UK's growth is simply about adding more people. But maybe this isn't strictly failure, one of the models of Thatcherism was Hong Kong, a place which depended on immigrant labour for decades, the difference being they are/were all Chinese so this tends to be ignored by foreigners.

Yep uk growth is not due to increases in productivity. This failure in thatcherism is why the Tory partly is flailing around ineptly but moves in other directions require acknowledging this failure.

[Tichtheid]

Rather than trying to quote everyone individually, I post this, from a site called Total Student Care

UK’s new simplified and favourable student visa Rules, post study work visa opportunity and switching to other immigration category towards settlement visa are key motivational factors to Nigerian students for choosing to study in the UK.
01/11/2022
Share

On the new international education strategy of UK introduced in 2019, Nigeria was listed as one of five high-priority countries which were target source markets for international students. UK’s streamlined student visa Rules launched in October 2020 opened up its borders to attract more international students. The re-introduction of Graduate Route Visa (Post Study Work) Visa for graduates to stay back and work for 2/3 years, find skilled work visa and rights to switch to other immigration route in the UK proved to be extremely popular among Nigerian students and they have been taking full advantages to these.

Between 2012 and 2017, the UK saw a 27% drop in international students from Nigeria. But the numbers has been increased every year my big margins since the launch of new international education strategy by UK. Of the total 486,868 Sponsored study visas granted by UK in the year ending 2022, Nigerian students were granted 65,929 visas which is 57545 higher than visas issued in year ending 2019 (8,384), nearly an eight-fold increase (686%) – this is the largest relative increase in Sponsored Study visa grants to any national compared with 2019. In the year ending 2021, 36783 Nigerian students came to study in the UK, this number increased by 29,146 to 65,929 in the year ending 2022, in the space of just 1 year and Nigeria becomes the top 3 country after India and China for sponsored study visa in the UK.

Nigerian postgraduate student brought the highest number of dependants to the UK, 40% of all dependants who accompanied foreign students in the 12 months to year ending June 2022. Some Nigerian students selling landed properties, house, cars, personal belongings, furniture and other assets to raise money while others taking loans from financial institutions to come and settle in the UK. To them this is a high-stake investment that will pay off many more times and they are happy to take this high risk to flee from the country where government has anti-youth policy, high youth unemployment, economic woes, including record high inflation, and a crippled education system.

Funnily enough, the rise coincided with

Number of EU students enrolling in UK universities halves post-Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... nce-brexit


This is still not my main point, which I simply can't keep repeating, but I'll wait and see what happens in the lead up to the next election.

[Paddington Bear]

take this high risk to flee from the country

They're not planning on going home. I don't blame them, I'd do exactly the same. But again, let's be honest about what we're dealing with here and not pretend it is some cost-free win/win.

[_Os_]

Yep uk growth is not due to increases in productivity. This failure in thatcherism is why the Tory partly is flailing around ineptly but moves in other directions require acknowledging this failure.

HK is the model. They never mention HK now and prefer mentioning Singapore or other places. But HK remains the model. A place with massive immigration from China (before and after British rule), much higher cost of living than other comparable cities in East Asia (in HK's case because of retail concentration), and massively expensive property prices not because there's no land in HK (that's a stereotype) but because they refuse to build. There's even manufacturing decline (unique in East Asia when compared to economies which were once HK's peers in manufacturing, or HK was ahead of in some ways, Japan/South Korea/Taiwan) and its replacement with services.

HK's political economy has spooky similarities to the UK.

With a lot of Tories this is almost their religion though. It has failed, but they don't care. They pretend Truss didn't blow up their entire project in such a short timespan it's not really deniable, they just ignore it. They're never losing faith in this, if they did, literally who would fund their party?

[Tichtheid]

take this high risk to flee from the country

They're not planning on going home. I don't blame them, I'd do exactly the same. But again, let's be honest about what we're dealing with here and not pretend it is some cost-free win/win.

Do you know how difficult it is to get a graduate level job in the UK after a visa runs out?

Unless these folk are going to rack up a >fifty grand debt in order to pick sprouts in a field over the winter they are going to find it difficult to find work

[GogLais]

No idea at all how these things work but would they refer him to the police if they thought he’d been speeding on the way to Chequers?

Civil servants have a duty to report information relevant to a crime under investigation.

Fair enough, thanks.

[Paddington Bear]

take this high risk to flee from the country

They're not planning on going home. I don't blame them, I'd do exactly the same. But again, let's be honest about what we're dealing with here and not pretend it is some cost-free win/win.

Do you know how difficult it is to get a graduate level job in the UK after a visa runs out?

Unless these folk are going to rack up a >fifty grand debt in order to pick sprouts in a field over the winter they are going to find it difficult to find work

Some will, some won't. Those like the woman referenced who did a postgrad course at Cambridge will get high flying jobs and be a fantastic asset for the country. Those that some of us have referenced who can't pass basic English tests, are at very low calibre unis doing low calibre courses or are involved in the systematic cheating that takes place on university assessments may well chance their arm (they wouldn't get a decent grad job anyway). It's a mixed issue.

[Tichtheid]

They're not planning on going home. I don't blame them, I'd do exactly the same. But again, let's be honest about what we're dealing with here and not pretend it is some cost-free win/win.

Do you know how difficult it is to get a graduate level job in the UK after a visa runs out?

Unless these folk are going to rack up a >fifty grand debt in order to pick sprouts in a field over the winter they are going to find it difficult to find work

Some will, some won't. Those like the woman referenced who did a postgrad course at Cambridge will get high flying jobs and be a fantastic asset for the country. Those that some of us have referenced who can't pass basic English tests, are at very low calibre unis doing low calibre courses or are involved in the systematic cheating that takes place on university assessments may well chance their arm (they wouldn't get a decent grad job anyway). It's a mixed issue.

Do you know what the responsibilities of the employers are regarding employees without valid visas, and therefore the penalties they can face?

I'll save you a google, it's up to twenty grand fine per worker and up to five years in prison, or both

[Paddington Bear]

Do you know how difficult it is to get a graduate level job in the UK after a visa runs out?

Unless these folk are going to rack up a >fifty grand debt in order to pick sprouts in a field over the winter they are going to find it difficult to find work

Some will, some won't. Those like the woman referenced who did a postgrad course at Cambridge will get high flying jobs and be a fantastic asset for the country. Those that some of us have referenced who can't pass basic English tests, are at very low calibre unis doing low calibre courses or are involved in the systematic cheating that takes place on university assessments may well chance their arm (they wouldn't get a decent grad job anyway). It's a mixed issue.

Do you know what the responsibilities of the employers are regarding employees without valid visas, and therefore the penalties they can face?

Wouldn't make it my specialist subject on mastermind but I understand it is reasonably onerous. You gave an example of work that might fall outside of this, there are plenty of others and plenty of people willing to exploit/take advantage of those who think living here illegally is better than going home. Your point is a bit of a 'no one drink drives/dodges taxes, it's illegal' style one.

[Tichtheid]

Some will, some won't. Those like the woman referenced who did a postgrad course at Cambridge will get high flying jobs and be a fantastic asset for the country. Those that some of us have referenced who can't pass basic English tests, are at very low calibre unis doing low calibre courses or are involved in the systematic cheating that takes place on university assessments may well chance their arm (they wouldn't get a decent grad job anyway). It's a mixed issue.

Do you know what the responsibilities of the employers are regarding employees without valid visas, and therefore the penalties they can face?

Wouldn't make it my specialist subject on mastermind but I understand it is reasonably onerous. You gave an example of work that might fall outside of this, there are plenty of others and plenty of people willing to exploit/take advantage of those who think living here illegally is better than going home. Your point is a bit of a 'no one drink drives/dodges taxes, it's illegal' style one.

How many is "plenty"?

I was being facetious with the picking vegetables, a job I've done myself, because we can't get enough people to do it

An anecdote - last year my dentist had to go back to Malaysia after his post-grad working visa ran out. He had come over to train in Dundee, despite numerous attempts to renew he was told to leave. That practice was pretty much the last in the city that took on NHS patients. Since he left they have been unable to find a replacement and are no longer taking on any NHS patients.

[_Os_]

They're not planning on going home. I don't blame them, I'd do exactly the same. But again, let's be honest about what we're dealing with here and not pretend it is some cost-free win/win.

Do you know how difficult it is to get a graduate level job in the UK after a visa runs out?

Unless these folk are going to rack up a >fifty grand debt in order to pick sprouts in a field over the winter they are going to find it difficult to find work

Some will, some won't. Those like the woman referenced who did a postgrad course at Cambridge will get high flying jobs and be a fantastic asset for the country. Those that some of us have referenced who can't pass basic English tests, are at very low calibre unis doing low calibre courses or are involved in the systematic cheating that takes place on university assessments may well chance their arm (they wouldn't get a decent grad job anyway). It's a mixed issue.

No one is getting a graduate job if their visa has run out. A skilled worker visa means earning £26k+ (or £21k+ for recent grads under 26 years old), and having a job in one of these categories:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -and-codes

Perfectly possible that someone in your second category (didn't go to a top uni cannot speak English), finds a job as a "garage manager" (it's on the list) and sits behind the till 24/7 therefore qualifying for a skilled worker visa. Whilst the person in your first category (Cambridge post grad probably older than 26) struggles to find work they're actually willing to do and ends up struggling to meet the visa requirements on earnings.

[Paddington Bear]

Do you know what the responsibilities of the employers are regarding employees without valid visas, and therefore the penalties they can face?

Wouldn't make it my specialist subject on mastermind but I understand it is reasonably onerous. You gave an example of work that might fall outside of this, there are plenty of others and plenty of people willing to exploit/take advantage of those who think living here illegally is better than going home. Your point is a bit of a 'no one drink drives/dodges taxes, it's illegal' style one.

How many is "plenty"?

I was being facetious with the picking vegetables, a job I've done myself, because we can't get enough people to do it

An anecdote - last year my dentist had to go back to Malaysia after his post-grad working visa ran out. He had come over to train in Dundee, despite numerous attempts to renew he was told to leave. That practice was pretty much the last in the city that took on NHS patients. Since he left they have been unable to find a replacement and are no longer taking on any NHS patients.

I don't doubt the story at all - as with a lot of things this country tends to penalise those of us who play by the rules and fail to enforce the rules on those that don't. It's like watching Ireland get reffed at the breakdown.

[Slick]

It's one of those issues where it's pretty difficult to know what the reality actually is.

I can only speak from a Scotland and Africa perspective, but some of the largest wages being paid now at Scottish uni's are in student recruitment, and the budgets they have are huge. I don't know the figures on dependent visas up here but in my experience the majority of Nigerian students head for Aberdeen or RGU and are studying degrees in energy/o&g with a view to going home for experience before looking at the international job market. The only one's that seem to bring anyone with them are older post graduate folk.

It does stink a bit to be honest. A huge issue across Africa at the moment is 100,000's of graduates sitting at home with a degree and no chance of getting a job. We sell a dream to get the cash then they are cast aside. It's got to the stage where some governments in Africa are actively trying to downgrade the status of a degree to get these kids into more practical courses. But the relentless push for graduates paying massive fees continues from the uni's in full knowledge of this. It's a business I suppose. Almost weekly I get requests from contacts asking if I can find help for a student who has been accepted on a course but has no way of paying for themselves. As an aside, I also met a student recruiter from Nigeria employed by a Scottish university who had placed over 300 students in a year. She flew over First Class and was dripping in Dior, I'm not convinced many questions are being asked.

The other issue of course is that Scottish students are missing out on places, but that's another conversation.

[_Os_]

It's one of those issues where it's pretty difficult to know what the reality actually is.

I can only speak from a Scotland and Africa perspective, but some of the largest wages being paid now at Scottish uni's are in student recruitment, and the budgets they have are huge. I don't know the figures on dependent visas up here but in my experience the majority of Nigerian students head for Aberdeen or RGU and are studying degrees in energy/o&g with a view to going home for experience before looking at the international job market. The only one's that seem to bring anyone with them are older post graduate folk.

It does stink a bit to be honest. A huge issue across Africa at the moment is 100,000's of graduates sitting at home with a degree and no chance of getting a job. We sell a dream to get the cash then they are cast aside. It's got to the stage where some governments in Africa are actively trying to downgrade the status of a degree to get these kids into more practical courses. But the relentless push for graduates paying massive fees continues from the uni's in full knowledge of this. It's a business I suppose. Almost weekly I get requests from contacts asking if I can find help for a student who has been accepted on a course but has no way of paying for themselves. As an aside, I also met a student recruiter from Nigeria employed by a Scottish university who had placed over 300 students in a year. She flew over First Class and was dripping in Dior, I'm not convinced many questions are being asked.

The other issue of course is that Scottish students are missing out on places, but that's another conversation.

It's going a bit off topic, but it's a deep cultural issue and will not be changed easily.

There needs to be a culture in the country that's parochial enough for the elites to prize going to uni in the country over going abroad. In Africa only SA has done this (and very maybe Egypt). In SA going abroad to some place exceptional will be held in some regard, but UCT/Wits/Stellies are all still rated very highly, as will technical qualifications from a range of other SA unis. No many are going to think really quite good unis in the UK (Bristol or Bath or somewhere like that) are better than SA's best. Without this narrowmindedness a country's uni system will be shit. Not just an African thing either, SA has better or at the very least as good unis as Taiwan/Vietnam/Philippines/Indonesia/Malaysia/Thailand/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka/Pakistan. SA usually has 3 or 4 unis better than whatever most Asia countries are putting up, SA's top uni is usually far above whatever the best from India is. It's not an economic development thing, it's not a cultural "focus on education" thing either (the focus on education in SA is not above Taiwanese ethnic Chinese or South Asians) it really just is "where are your elites going because that's where everyone else will want to go, and will be the place you invest in and help build". A lot of countries in Africa and Asia have a shit local uni system when they shouldn't, and will until their elites give up on the West in a more fundamental way than they have to date. It's not even like top SA unis are hard to beat, they're often dysfunctional, they just need to become as parochial as us.

This came up on the other forum when the UK pulled out of Erasmus, some goon started praising the unis of Malaysia/Indonesia/Philippines or some equally mad list of Asian countries, above what Europe could offer. Purely based on economic growth and population sizes. I pointed out it would be difficult to get better value for money than at a European uni, and all the places he listed were so bad any English person going there would get an inferior education than if they went to any of about 4 to 8 SA unis. The point they were trying to make, that Europe/Erasmus could be replaced with Asia, didn't really work.

[Paddington Bear]

Some good news:

The UK is set to win a battle with Spain to host a multi-billion-pound electric car battery plant in Somerset, the BBC understands

The boss of Jaguar Land Rover-owner Tata is expected to fly to London next week to finalise the deal.

Some in the car industry have described the plant as the most significant investment in UK automotive since Nissan came to Britain in the 1980s.

Tata's chairman is scheduled to meet the prime minister mid-next week.

Sources familiar with the matter say that although the deal has yet to be signed, engagement has moved from negotiations to drafting and choreography of how the landmark agreement will be presented.

Up to 9,000 jobs would be created at the Bridgwater site, close to the M5.

[Insane_Homer]

Some good news:

The boss of Jaguar Land Rover-owner Tata is expected to fly to London next week to collect his bribe.

fixed for accuracy

[inactionman]

Some good news:

The UK is set to win a battle with Spain to host a multi-billion-pound electric car battery plant in Somerset, the BBC understands

The boss of Jaguar Land Rover-owner Tata is expected to fly to London next week to finalise the deal.

Some in the car industry have described the plant as the most significant investment in UK automotive since Nissan came to Britain in the 1980s.

Tata's chairman is scheduled to meet the prime minister mid-next week.

Sources familiar with the matter say that although the deal has yet to be signed, engagement has moved from negotiations to drafting and choreography of how the landmark agreement will be presented.

Up to 9,000 jobs would be created at the Bridgwater site, close to the M5.

I'll believe it when those involved have signed on the dotted line, but if it comes through it is very good news.

How does this play with/against Britishvolt? Is JLR going their own way a factor in Britishvolt's falling over? Seems odd that JLR declined investment in a company in the midlands (i.e. on their doorstep) and have gone instead for Somerset, although subsidies etc obviously playing a role.

[Paddington Bear]

Some good news:

The UK is set to win a battle with Spain to host a multi-billion-pound electric car battery plant in Somerset, the BBC understands

The boss of Jaguar Land Rover-owner Tata is expected to fly to London next week to finalise the deal.

Some in the car industry have described the plant as the most significant investment in UK automotive since Nissan came to Britain in the 1980s.

Tata's chairman is scheduled to meet the prime minister mid-next week.

Sources familiar with the matter say that although the deal has yet to be signed, engagement has moved from negotiations to drafting and choreography of how the landmark agreement will be presented.

Up to 9,000 jobs would be created at the Bridgwater site, close to the M5.

I'll believe it when those involved have signed on the dotted line, but if it comes through it is very good news.

How does this play with/against Britishvolt? Is JLR going their own way a factor in Britishvolt's falling over? Seems odd that JLR declined investment in a company in the midlands (i.e. on their doorstep) and have gone instead for Somerset, although subsidies etc obviously playing a role.

Britishvolt is up in Blyth, no? On the M5 is probably easier for them from that POV, plus existing expertise in and around Swindon?

[inactionman]

Some good news:

I'll believe it when those involved have signed on the dotted line, but if it comes through it is very good news.

How does this play with/against Britishvolt? Is JLR going their own way a factor in Britishvolt's falling over? Seems odd that JLR declined investment in a company in the midlands (i.e. on their doorstep) and have gone instead for Somerset, although subsidies etc obviously playing a role.

Britishvolt is up in Blyth, no? On the M5 is probably easier for them from that POV, plus existing expertise in and around Swindon?

There was talk of BritishVolt building in/near Coventry, wondered if lukewarm reception from JLR et al scuppered that (could just be Blyth was the better site, of course)

[tabascoboy]

Now is he doing this just because it's the right thing to do or for other reasons? Still, a good move.

Michael Gove orders probe into Teesworks 'corruption' claims

The government is setting up an independent panel to probe claims of "corruption, wrongdoing and illegality" at the UK's largest industrial zone.

Levelling Up Secretary Michael Gove said he had taken the "exceptional decision" to order the review into claims at the Teesworks site in Redcar.

Labour MPs had raised concerns over the transfer of millions of pounds of public assets to private developers.

Tees Valley Mayor Ben Houchen said he "looked forward" to its outcome.

In a letter to Conservative Mr Houchen, Mr Gove said he was acting on a request from the mayor and had "reflected carefully on the choices available".

He said the "continued allegation of corruption" had posed a "very real risk" to the site, which had "delivered jobs and economic growth".

However he said, although it was not in the National Audit Office's (NAO) remit to investigate the site, he would "welcome" the body to update "its review of the government's funding arrangements".

Full article at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-65641660

[SaintK]

Now is he doing this just because it's the right thing to do or for other reasons? Still, a good move.

Michael Gove orders probe into Teesworks 'corruption' claims

The government is setting up an independent panel to probe claims of "corruption, wrongdoing and illegality" at the UK's largest industrial zone.

Levelling Up Secretary Michael Gove said he had taken the "exceptional decision" to order the review into claims at the Teesworks site in Redcar.

Labour MPs had raised concerns over the transfer of millions of pounds of public assets to private developers.

Tees Valley Mayor Ben Houchen said he "looked forward" to its outcome.

In a letter to Conservative Mr Houchen, Mr Gove said he was acting on a request from the mayor and had "reflected carefully on the choices available".

He said the "continued allegation of corruption" had posed a "very real risk" to the site, which had "delivered jobs and economic growth".

However he said, although it was not in the National Audit Office's (NAO) remit to investigate the site, he would "welcome" the body to update "its review of the government's funding arrangements".

Full article at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-65641660

I wonder who will be hand picking the "independent panel" to investigate?

[petej]

Some good news:

The UK is set to win a battle with Spain to host a multi-billion-pound electric car battery plant in Somerset, the BBC understands

The boss of Jaguar Land Rover-owner Tata is expected to fly to London next week to finalise the deal.

Some in the car industry have described the plant as the most significant investment in UK automotive since Nissan came to Britain in the 1980s.

Tata's chairman is scheduled to meet the prime minister mid-next week.

Sources familiar with the matter say that although the deal has yet to be signed, engagement has moved from negotiations to drafting and choreography of how the landmark agreement will be presented.

Up to 9,000 jobs would be created at the Bridgwater site, close to the M5.

UK car industry, brexit and electrification is absolutely tragic. Just a horrible own goal after some good work from successive governments. UK had jlr with the ipace and Nissan with leaf and then we decided to kick ourselves as hard as possible in the bollocks. This needed to happen 4 -5 years ago.

[TheNatalShark]

Some good news:

The UK is set to win a battle with Spain to host a multi-billion-pound electric car battery plant in Somerset, the BBC understands

The boss of Jaguar Land Rover-owner Tata is expected to fly to London next week to finalise the deal.

Some in the car industry have described the plant as the most significant investment in UK automotive since Nissan came to Britain in the 1980s.

Tata's chairman is scheduled to meet the prime minister mid-next week.

Sources familiar with the matter say that although the deal has yet to be signed, engagement has moved from negotiations to drafting and choreography of how the landmark agreement will be presented.

Up to 9,000 jobs would be created at the Bridgwater site, close to the M5.

UK car industry, brexit and electrification is absolutely tragic. Just a horrible own goal after some good work from successive governments. UK had jlr with the ipace and Nissan with leaf and then we decided to kick ourselves as hard as possible in the bollocks. This needed to happen 4 -5 years ago.

Curious the text above omits the eye watering subsidies we are having to offer. Given the size of packages EU been supporting with of late I do hope we're not trying to subsides beyond reason without a meaningful aim on how to link these sites with an actual industrial strategy. But it wouldn't surprise me.

https://www.ft.com/content/95cfea00-a5a ... 70e827d6e1

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Some good news:

UK car industry, brexit and electrification is absolutely tragic. Just a horrible own goal after some good work from successive governments. UK had jlr with the ipace and Nissan with leaf and then we decided to kick ourselves as hard as possible in the bollocks. This needed to happen 4 -5 years ago.

Curious the text above omits the eye watering subsidies we are having to offer. Given the size of packages EU been supporting with of late I do hope we're not trying to subsides beyond reason without a meaningful aim on how to link these sites with an actual industrial strategy. But it wouldn't surprise me.

https://www.ft.com/content/95cfea00-a5a ... 70e827d6e1

I heard we were coughing up £800 million, but not all for the car side, some of doing the car thing is conditional on funding some of Tata's steel concerns too.

Even then it's not massive, even £800 million isn't a drop stacked alongside US bribes (investment opportunities), but we're setting out with an intent to be small/niche. of course small and niche is what we are, but our attempts will need to be well thought out and as much as possible joined up because inertia will not be our friend. Still, this is the world we wanted with less multilateral cooperation, one's thanks as always to the 52%

[fishfoodie]

Some good news:

The UK is set to win a battle with Spain to host a multi-billion-pound electric car battery plant in Somerset, the BBC understands

The boss of Jaguar Land Rover-owner Tata is expected to fly to London next week to finalise the deal.

Some in the car industry have described the plant as the most significant investment in UK automotive since Nissan came to Britain in the 1980s.

Tata's chairman is scheduled to meet the prime minister mid-next week.

Sources familiar with the matter say that although the deal has yet to be signed, engagement has moved from negotiations to drafting and choreography of how the landmark agreement will be presented.

Up to 9,000 jobs would be created at the Bridgwater site, close to the M5.

UK car industry, brexit and electrification is absolutely tragic. Just a horrible own goal after some good work from successive governments. UK had jlr with the ipace and Nissan with leaf and then we decided to kick ourselves as hard as possible in the bollocks. This needed to happen 4 -5 years ago.

Are you forgetting that the only Economist who thought Brexit a good idea, also thought that the eradication of the UK Car industry was the inevitable consequence ?

He also thought that Farmers were fucked, so he was at least capable of seeing some of the outcomes.

[Paddington Bear]

UK car industry, brexit and electrification is absolutely tragic. Just a horrible own goal after some good work from successive governments. UK had jlr with the ipace and Nissan with leaf and then we decided to kick ourselves as hard as possible in the bollocks. This needed to happen 4 -5 years ago.

Curious the text above omits the eye watering subsidies we are having to offer. Given the size of packages EU been supporting with of late I do hope we're not trying to subsides beyond reason without a meaningful aim on how to link these sites with an actual industrial strategy. But it wouldn't surprise me.

https://www.ft.com/content/95cfea00-a5a ... 70e827d6e1

I heard we were coughing up £800 million, but not all for the car side, some of doing the car thing is conditional on funding some of Tata's steel concerns too.

Even then it's not massive, even £800 million isn't a drop stacked alongside US bribes (investment opportunities), but we're setting out with an intent to be small/niche. of course small and niche is what we are, but our attempts will need to be well thought out and as much as possible joined up because inertia will not be our friend. Still, this is the world we wanted with less multilateral cooperation, one's thanks as always to the 52%

There's no world in which the Americans are pursuing the economic policies that they are where we wouldn't have to chuck cash at firms to come here/stay. Of course there's a fair few firms who realise that the government is absolutely desperate for a win, hence Musk's recent antics. £800m sounds as you say like a small price to pay, particularly if we can join this up beyond Bridgewater (whilst I won't hold my breath this does strike me as the kind of thing Sunak may be quite tuned into, we'll see).

[Lobby]

Didn't he put it in his diaries?

Boris Johnson has been referred to the police by the Cabinet Office after his diary showed friends visiting Chequers - the grace and favour home - during the COVID pandemic.

The dossier given to Thames Valley Police and the Met about Boris details about 12 illegal events during lockdown at both Chequers and No. 10. None of these have been investigated before.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-street

I wonder if the Met will actually investigate this time now that he is no longer PM rather than ignoring all the evidence as they did last time.

[_Os_]

£800m sounds as you say like a small price to pay, particularly if we can join this up beyond Bridgewater (whilst I won't hold my breath this does strike me as the kind of thing Sunak may be quite tuned into, we'll see).

Sunak opposes having a joined up industrial strategy, whilst he was chancellor he saw it at businesses queueing up at his door for "handouts". In 2021 KamiKwazi scrapped Greg Clark's industrial strategy, but Sunak was chancellor and had no issue with the move. This year Sunak abolished the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the "industrial strategy" component not finding a new home in the three new ministries that replaced it.

Like most Tories his economics is more Truss like than he would now admit. He believes in "letting the market decide", it's almost a religious belief. In a context when all the bigger players than the UK are doing everything they can to distort the market, armed with actual joined up thought through plans and a mountain of resources, whilst all the smaller players than the UK have a cost advantage and sometimes more of a plan than the UK too. The anti-EU stuff comes from the same urge, it only works if everyone else also decides to leave the EU, if they don't and the EU still exists then it doesn't work and risks crippling the UK. If only the UK decides to "let the market decide", then the UK is worse off.

The Tories seem capable of throwing money at this sort of thing, as long as it's not very much money and there's no big plan. If it involves substantial resources and an actual plan they start waffling about "British Leyland" and "picking winners".

Labour are going in the opposite direction and are clearly aiming for as large an industrial strategy as possible. But the electoral system doesn't promote consensus building it favours two completely opposed opposites. In an economy like the UK that's a lot smaller than the big players, this sort of thing isn't going to work if it's not pursued through multiple administrations over the long term.

[Biffer]

£800m sounds as you say like a small price to pay, particularly if we can join this up beyond Bridgewater (whilst I won't hold my breath this does strike me as the kind of thing Sunak may be quite tuned into, we'll see).

Sunak opposes having a joined up industrial strategy, whilst he was chancellor he saw it at businesses queueing up at his door for "handouts". In 2021 KamiKwazi scrapped Greg Clark's industrial strategy, but Sunak was chancellor and had no issue with the move. This year Sunak abolished the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the "industrial strategy" component not finding a new home in the three new ministries that replaced it.

Like most Tories his economics is more Truss like than he would now admit. He believes in "letting the market decide", it's almost a religious belief. In a context when all the bigger players than the UK are doing everything they can to distort the market, armed with actual joined up thought through plans and a mountain of resources, whilst all the smaller players than the UK have a cost advantage and sometimes more of a plan than the UK too. The anti-EU stuff comes from the same urge, it only works if everyone else also decides to leave the EU, if they don't and the EU still exists then it doesn't work and risks crippling the UK. If only the UK decides to "let the market decide", then the UK is worse off.

The Tories seem capable of throwing money at this sort of thing, as long as it's not very much money and there's no big plan. If it involves substantial resources and an actual plan they start waffling about "British Leyland" and "picking winners".

Labour are going in the opposite direction and are clearly aiming for as large an industrial strategy as possible. But the electoral system doesn't promote consensus building it favours two completely opposed opposites. In an economy like the UK that's a lot smaller than the big players, this sort of thing isn't going to work if it's not pursued through multiple administrations over the long term.

The Tories promised an industrial strategy in 2010. We're still waiting.