Stop voting for fucking Tories

[I like neeps]

I presume Labours brexit policy will be to improve on Sunak's deal without specifying what improvement actually is then when in power every inclination they make to move to closer alignment with Europe will be met with screaming tantrums by the right wing press. And we've seen how Sir Kier responds to focus group pressure. So it's going to be more fudge, more national decline, closer and closer to Kemi Badenoch.

What is actually an interesting point though. Brexit is "done" yet no party actually has a public position on their trade policy. It's just not even mentioned at all.

[_Os_]

Rayner acknowledged that Khan's ULEZ expansion is a vote loser so let's see a bit more flip flopping

That looks like a cope I'm afraid.

Greens held their vote or grew in each constituency, up to 3rd in all three. Well ahead of Labour in Somerton & Frome now, grew their vote there moved up to third ahead of Labour (they were fourth last time). In Uxbridge and South Ruislip it looks like the Lib Dem voters got behind Labour, their vote is down in absolute terms (number of votes) and relative terms (%), the Greens vote is down in absolute terms (number of votes) but up in relative terms (%), Greens move up up to third (fourth last time). Labour would've won Uxbridge and South Ruislip with the Greens votes. Selby and Ainsty Greens held all their vote, up to third there (fifth last time).

So in those three the Greens are now above Labour in one, prevented Labour winning another, and have had no slippage to Labour in the only one Labour won.

[Tichtheid]

I seem to recall that Johnson won the London mayorship due to votes in the outer belt against a congestion charge. Now it's being said that his constituency was won mainly down to votes cast for similar reasons - in the same week that climate scientists are saying that we will most likely not reach the goal of keeping to "only" a 2 degree rise in temp, the consequences of which will see much of the East End under water.

There is a life-threatening heat wave going on in Europe, floods in India and South Korea.

[SaintK]

The Red Wall Tory MPs will be totally wiped out and it's going to be carnage.

Hopefully we will see the back of the likes of Gullis, Anderson and Clarke!

[I like neeps]

Labour will need to sort ULEZ out apparently.
However they still increased their vote vote in Uxbridge by 6%

Clearly the nod and a wink will mean Labour and Lim Dems will know exactly where to focus their campaigning at the next GE.
The Red Wall Tory MPs will be totally wiped out and it's going to be carnage.

I think the Tories arrogance is still astounding.

Rayner acknowledged that Khan's ULEZ expansion is a vote loser so let's see a bit more flip flopping

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

[_Os_]

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

No a left leaning Labour mayor of London is responsible for losing it, on a green issue when the literal Greens came third.

Sounds like Khan is going to be purged from the Labour party for this.

The loss of course has nothing at all to do with the Labour leader appearing on stage with the most hated living person in British politics, Tony Blair, in the days before. A move guaranteed to get anyone motivated to kamikaze vote for the Greens specifically to harm Labour up and voting. Nothing to do with that, all Khan.

[SaintK]

Labour will need to sort ULEZ out apparently.
However they still increased their vote vote in Uxbridge by 6%

Clearly the nod and a wink will mean Labour and Lim Dems will know exactly where to focus their campaigning at the next GE.
The Red Wall Tory MPs will be totally wiped out and it's going to be carnage.

I think the Tories arrogance is still astounding.

Rayner acknowledged that Khan's ULEZ expansion is a vote loser so let's see a bit more flip flopping

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

And it was Johnson who originally introduced it.

[I like neeps]

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

No a left leaning Labour mayor of London is responsible for losing it, on a green issue when the literal Greens came third.

Sounds like Khan is going to be purged from the Labour party for this.

The loss of course has nothing at all to do with the Labour leader appearing on stage with the most hated living person in British politics, Tony Blair, in the days before. A move guaranteed to get anyone motivated to kamikaze vote for the Greens specifically to harm Labour up and voting. Nothing to do with that, all Khan.

I do think we'll see a lot of urban voters move to the Greens from Labour as a protest vote against Starmer but I don't think it'll be hugely significant overall and it's probably not because he was hobnobbing with Blair two days ago. More because he's been modelling himself on Blair for two years.

Starmer is going to win the next GE without saying anything substantive. That's what Selby and Frome last night suggested anyway.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Labour will need to sort ULEZ out apparently.
However they still increased their vote vote in Uxbridge by 6%

Clearly the nod and a wink will mean Labour and Lim Dems will know exactly where to focus their campaigning at the next GE.
The Red Wall Tory MPs will be totally wiped out and it's going to be carnage.

I think the Tories arrogance is still astounding.

Rayner acknowledged that Khan's ULEZ expansion is a vote loser so let's see a bit more flip flopping

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

And it was Johnson who originally introduced it.

It's not even that stringent. My 2004 petrol* car passes the standard (same with the Glasgow zone). 2004.

I suspect there's lots of wailing and moaning and reading the Daily Mail without actually checking the facts, as usual.

*Diesels will be more impacted, granted, though I checked my previous car, a 2016 focus, and that was fine too. So how many people will actually be affected?

[Yeeb]

You are abit wide of the mark here , if UK plc closed all these former colonies tax advantages then all that money would merely flow elsewhere . Tax differentials are hardly new , US states differ , eu allowed Ireland to undercut and attract certain businesses rapidly , Spain has canaries & ceurta .. it really isn’t a unique to Uk problem, and the 2/3 thing is perhaps down as much to banking culture and power of the city than formal political ties.

See also panama, Liberia as port of convenience, Swiss cantons..

It depends what rules were brought in to "end it". The money wouldn't just automatically all go elsewhere, because the jurisdiction needs multiple elements for the money to be safe and usable: rule of law, a banking system, not black listed. The additional benefits are the tax regime, privacy, and things like residency rules. The primary benefit for these people is being able to keep huge amounts of money hidden.

The UK offshore system dwarfs the entire rest of the offshore system, so saying something in the UK has "offshored" when it's usually still inside the UK system, doesn't really work. The comparison to US states doesn't really work either, there's US federal taxes. The comparison to Ireland doesn't work either, because this isn't about some mythical explanation about why companies invest in Ireland that ignores Ireland's EU membership and pretends it's only about tax rules not much different to Estonia or Malta (also EU members) ... this is about where oligarchs park billions upon billions to keep it safe and hidden. A piggybank isn't about setting up a company in Dublin that actually does stuff somewhere in the world.

The UK is such a big player in this, that it is also about setting up an offshore company (usually still inside the UK) that actually does stuff somewhere in the world. But that's peanuts compared to the piggybank.

You would move your piggybank from the UK to fucking Liberia because of some additional tax? Seriously? The Liberian corporate registry is outsourced to America (probably not so private then), the phrase "Liberian banking industry" doesn't inspire confidence, nor does there being a low grade civil war next door in Ivory Coast inspire confidence. It's only used for registering shipping (the admin of that is also outsourced to America) because those are physical movable assets that aren't in Liberia. There are in truth very few places safe enough and with enough scale to move the money to.

If you had 10 ordinary people in the UK working online through an offshore company and not paying HMRC (on the company profits at least, obviously they're living on something so something is coming into the UK), there was a crackdown on that and most of them left the UK, but the minority who remained started paying HMRC on all their company profits. Would you see that as a bad thing and a huge loss?

I have no idea where you are wandering around with this but I think you need to read up on domicile , deemed & trusts a bit, as it seems you are giving UK’s power a bit too much credit re influence. A tax loophole and differential is a tax loophole and differential so unclear why somehow federal ones don’t count for you or why according to you it’s only a Uk thing.
Companies / funds / shells can and do move nominal country for tax advantages all the time , it was literally what I did in a couple of my roles in the past. Have a read about German cum-ex scandal which I’ve mentioned to bimbo & TSG on PR a couple of times , that had zero to do with Uk bar the fact that the people making the decisions were in London (although technically they were not ) and their lackeys (of which I was one ) were technically in London.

[_Os_]

I do think we'll see a lot of urban voters move to the Greens from Labour as a protest vote against Starmer but I don't think it'll be hugely significant overall and it's probably not because he was hobnobbing with Blair two days ago. More because he's been modelling himself on Blair for two years.

Starmer is going to win the next GE without saying anything substantive. That's what Selby and Frome last night suggested anyway.

I definitely think having a good laugh with Blair helped the Greens, anyone rocking up to a by-election voting for a party that was nowhere in the previous election and has no chance in the by-election either, is the definition of a protest voter. A protest voter needs something to protest.

Everything is pointing towards a Labour majority and historic Tory defeat. People not moving from the Greens to Labour says that too, if they really thought the Tories mattered they would be shifting to Labour. About half the Greens polling usually melts into Labour come an general election, looks like it won't happen this time.

Lib Dems despite the good by-elections, seem to have fucked it a bit. They've decided to become a Tory adjacent party and have abandoned being an equal distance from both the Tories and Labour. They're now pro-NIMBY and it's hard to work out what their Brexit position is (when their brand was being the most pro-EU). They've also decided to informally work with Labour (whilst the Greens don't and are holding their vote or growing). They should be polling above 20%, but all they're saying is "vote to remove the Tories, which usually means not voting for us". This Lib Dem positioning only works in the current situation where the Tories are in government and hated, it struggles when they're left with only Tory facing seats they hold or can win (very close to that now), and the Tories are the official opposition and getting most of the airtime saying Labour are shit.

[inactionman]

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

And it was Johnson who originally introduced it.

It's not even that stringent. My 2004 petrol* car passes the standard (same with the Glasgow zone). 2004.

I suspect there's lots of wailing and moaning and reading the Daily Mail without actually checking the facts, as usual.

*Diesels will be more impacted, granted, though I checked my previous car, a 2016 focus, and that was fine too. So how many people will actually be affected?

Older diesels mainly, which will presumably piss many taxi drivers off.

A 2016 diesel will be EURO 6 which is currently the most stringent of the standards, I think it came intro effect in 2014 but that is only for cars retailed from that point on - it's of course not retrospective. Most ULEZ require Euro 6. There was a significant jump (or required drop) for NOx between EURO 5 and EURO 6, from 0.18 g/KM to 0.08. (eta - just to make clear, most EURO 5 engines are not going to be OK for ULEZ just purely on target limits, although I'm not clear if EURO 6 is actually a requirement for ULEZ or just the specific car's emissions levels)

Diesels are horrifically more polluting than any modern petrol car (by that I mean anything petrol with a catalytic converter and lambda sensor, so it's barely producing any CO or NOx). By their very nature Diesels are very, very hard to get clean - there's all sorts of workarounds such as ammonia additives (adblue - and really needed to get NOX down to EURO 6 requirements), exhaust gas recirculation (Which helps with NOX but is complex), particulate traps etc, which are there to try to address the worst excesses and which older engines won't have.

Many of these problems were caused by the relentless drive to drop CO2 emissions, which diesels can help with - at the expense of just about every other horrible pollutant. Prior to the VW emissions scandal, where people started to look more closely, no-one really seemed to care. I worked at a University which had huge research funding from Ford for diesel research (amongst other things) and many of us not involved in that research area could really work out why there wasn't more pushback on diesel given it's so intrinsically polluting.

[shaggy]

Labour will need to sort ULEZ out apparently.
However they still increased their vote vote in Uxbridge by 6%

Clearly the nod and a wink will mean Labour and Lim Dems will know exactly where to focus their campaigning at the next GE.
The Red Wall Tory MPs will be totally wiped out and it's going to be carnage.

I think the Tories arrogance is still astounding.

Rayner acknowledged that Khan's ULEZ expansion is a vote loser so let's see a bit more flip flopping

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

I think you might need to fact check that one on ULEZ. Everything I have read suggests it was Khan’s decision.

[not_english]

Anyone who lives in or near London knows ULEZ is a massive pain, hitting far more people than they seem to realise. It feels like a bad time to have to pay another 10K or whatever for a new car that I certainly wasn't planning on, and naturally no compensation for anyone who isn't on a benefit.
I'd respect Khan more if he had actually stood for election on the platform of increasing the ULEZ area rather than just deciding to expand it after he was elected.

Not surprised this has cost them plenty of votes, it's just another cost that people don't need on top of all the mortgage and food and energy bills.

[Brazil]

Labour will need to sort ULEZ out apparently.
However they still increased their vote vote in Uxbridge by 6%

Clearly the nod and a wink will mean Labour and Lim Dems will know exactly where to focus their campaigning at the next GE.
The Red Wall Tory MPs will be totally wiped out and it's going to be carnage.

I think the Tories arrogance is still astounding.

Rayner acknowledged that Khan's ULEZ expansion is a vote loser so let's see a bit more flip flopping

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

I think you might need to fact check that one on ULEZ. Everything I have read suggests it was Khan’s decision.

https://www.onlondon.co.uk/letter-from- ... arge-zone/

They made it a condition of the TFL funding.

[Tichtheid]

You need a good public transport system as the carrot to the ULEZ stick. I don't know what public transport is like in Greater London but in and around central London it has always appeared to me that the public transport system is good and safe when you consider how many millions of people are moving around every day.

A car is convenient and some people really do need to use one every day, but I'm not convinced you need one of the new Land Rover Defenders to take the kids to school in West Hampstead. Car clubs are becoming more common place and are used more around here, I don't use my car much now, if it fails the MOT (it's 20 years old) it's getting binned and I'll rely on public transport and hiring when needed.

[shaggy]

In my street there are a good dozen non-compliant diesel cars/vans, equating to about 15% of the total vehicles. Some I checked on AutoTrader and their resale price was 15k in several cases. To get an equivalent compliant replacement was going to cost them another 10k.

For some reason the pensioners have not even heard about it. A lot I see walking dogs had no idea they were impacted by it, they are scared by the cost.

A lot of those pensioners said they have to give up driving, Khan’s aim anyway, but hospital visits make this impossible for many with multiple buses needed and a journey time of well over an hour. Car journey takes 15mins.

There is massive potential for a Labour routing in the outer boroughs of London.

[_Os_]

I have no idea where you are wandering around with this but I think you need to read up on domicile , deemed & trusts a bit, as it seems you are giving UK’s power a bit too much credit re influence. A tax loophole and differential is a tax loophole and differential so unclear why somehow federal ones don’t count for you or why according to you it’s only a Uk thing.
Companies / funds / shells can and do move nominal country for tax advantages all the time , it was literally what I did in a couple of my roles in the past. Have a read about German cum-ex scandal which I’ve mentioned to bimbo & TSG on PR a couple of times , that had zero to do with Uk bar the fact that the people making the decisions were in London (although technically they were not ) and their lackeys (of which I was one ) were technically in London.

I need to read up on domicile? Are you sure?

It's obvious where I'm going. You're saying the rich cannot be taxed because they'll move their money elsewhere. I'm saying multiple offshore jurisdictions are ultimately within the power of the UK parliament to control/end. For the difference between US states and the UK system, just compare say the Cayman Island's tax regime to any US state, the other difference is Americans are aware Texas exists and is American, not really the same for the British and the BOTs. There aren't actually many places for the money to move to where it's going to be secure and hidden (it's certainly not moving to Liberia ffs), that means avoiding the US and EU system entirely and avoiding the places it came from (Russia/China/ME/etc). And if it does move, who cares, what stays will actually start paying HMRC. Or the UK can persist with two systems under one roof whilst running a structural deficit and a growing national debt, in a country of 70 millions which is never going to be a Switzerland, and see how long that lasts.

[Slick]

You need a good public transport system as the carrot to the ULEZ stick. I don't know what public transport is like in Greater London but in and around central London it has always appeared to me that the public transport system is good and safe when you consider how many millions of people are moving around every day.

A car is convenient and some people really do need to use one every day, but I'm not convinced you need one of the new Land Rover Defenders to take the kids to school in West Hampstead. Car clubs are becoming more common place and are used more around here, I don't use my car much now, if it fails the MOT (it's 20 years old) it's getting binned and I'll rely on public transport and hiring when needed.

This. Uxbridge has excellent public transport locally and into London. We just have to change the mindset of a car being a necessity and a right, but that has to go hand in hand with helping those that do need alternative transport, I would guess most people moaning about it don't.

[Tichtheid]

In my street there are a good dozen non-compliant diesel cars/vans, equating to about 15% of the total vehicles. Some I checked on AutoTrader and their resale price was 15k in several cases. To get an equivalent compliant replacement was going to cost them another 10k.

For some reason the pensioners have not even heard about it. A lot I see walking dogs had no idea they were impacted by it, they are scared by the cost.

A lot of those pensioners said they have to give up driving, Khan’s aim anyway, but hospital visits make this impossible for many with multiple buses needed and a journey time of well over an hour. Car journey takes 15mins.

There is massive potential for a Labour routing in the outer boroughs of London.

According TfL a taxi fare in London of up to 20 minutes costs £7- £17.

Even if you had to do the hospital visit every month at the maximum rate it would still be way less than the cost of keeping a car on the road tax, parking, insurance, depreciation, service & MOT, breakdown cover etc even before the pollution charge

[shaggy]

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

I think you might need to fact check that one on ULEZ. Everything I have read suggests it was Khan’s decision.

https://www.onlondon.co.uk/letter-from- ... arge-zone/

They made it a condition of the TFL funding.

That aligns with what I have read in other places, Khan to suggests option around schemes to charge more to balance his budget. It does not place it as a condition.

Also Khan has solely placed this on air quality, if it was an explicit condition by Government that would be his first/second statement each time he talks about ULEZ, and as far as I can work out he has not raised it at all?

[JM2K6]

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

No a left leaning Labour mayor of London is responsible for losing it, on a green issue when the literal Greens came third.

Sounds like Khan is going to be purged from the Labour party for this.

The loss of course has nothing at all to do with the Labour leader appearing on stage with the most hated living person in British politics, Tony Blair, in the days before. A move guaranteed to get anyone motivated to kamikaze vote for the Greens specifically to harm Labour up and voting. Nothing to do with that, all Khan.

Tories: weaponised ULEZ and hailed it as the reason for the narrow win
Labour: claimed ULEZ was weaponised and acknowledged it was significant in the failure to overtake the Tories
Voters/residents on call-ins: pointing the finger at ULEZ
Os: it's because Starmer had a chat with Blair the other day


Labour: 43.6% - a +5.9% swing
Greens: 2.9% - a +0.6% swing
Os: Greens prevented Labour winning!!

[_Os_]

Tories: weaponised ULEZ and hailed it as the reason for the narrow win
Labour: claimed ULEZ was weaponised
Voters/residents on call-ins: pointing the finger at ULEZ
Os: it's because Starmer had a chat with Blair the other day


Labour: 43.6% - a +5.9% swing
Greens: 2.9% - a +0.6% swing
Os: Greens prevented Labour winning!!

I caught my fishy.

Compare the Lib Dem voter movement to the Greens (non) voter movement. Same in all three. A chat and laugh with Blair is not a good move if Labour wants to shift those Greens. Which they don't need to now, but lets wait and see once Labour have been in charge of the dumpster fire for awhile.

[shaggy]

In my street there are a good dozen non-compliant diesel cars/vans, equating to about 15% of the total vehicles. Some I checked on AutoTrader and their resale price was 15k in several cases. To get an equivalent compliant replacement was going to cost them another 10k.

For some reason the pensioners have not even heard about it. A lot I see walking dogs had no idea they were impacted by it, they are scared by the cost.

A lot of those pensioners said they have to give up driving, Khan’s aim anyway, but hospital visits make this impossible for many with multiple buses needed and a journey time of well over an hour. Car journey takes 15mins.

There is massive potential for a Labour routing in the outer boroughs of London.

According TfL a taxi fare in London of up to 20 minutes costs £7- £17.

Even if you had to do the hospital visit every month at the maximum rate it would still be way less than the cost of keeping a car on the road tax, parking, insurance, depreciation, service & MOT, breakdown cover etc even before the pollution charge

Hospital visits was just one extreme example. Food shopping is another example provided, very soon it mounts up.

Public transport in some outer and more rural boroughs is very sporadic, it is not a simple replacement for the car that many think it can be.

I live in a borough where it is not too bad but every journey is more than doubled by using public transport.

Don’t underestimate how impactful ULEZ is outside of the N/S Circulars.

[SaintK]

Labour will need to sort ULEZ out apparently.
However they still increased their vote vote in Uxbridge by 6%

Clearly the nod and a wink will mean Labour and Lim Dems will know exactly where to focus their campaigning at the next GE.
The Red Wall Tory MPs will be totally wiped out and it's going to be carnage.

I think the Tories arrogance is still astounding.

Rayner acknowledged that Khan's ULEZ expansion is a vote loser so let's see a bit more flip flopping

ULEZ isn't even Khan's policy choice. Shapps made expansion of ULEZ a requirement for increased tfls funding settlement last year.

I think you might need to fact check that one on ULEZ. Everything I have read suggests it was Khan’s decision.

Nope, very much Shapps in the May 2020 TfL funding agreement

[inactionman]

In my street there are a good dozen non-compliant diesel cars/vans, equating to about 15% of the total vehicles. Some I checked on AutoTrader and their resale price was 15k in several cases. To get an equivalent compliant replacement was going to cost them another 10k.

For some reason the pensioners have not even heard about it. A lot I see walking dogs had no idea they were impacted by it, they are scared by the cost.

A lot of those pensioners said they have to give up driving, Khan’s aim anyway, but hospital visits make this impossible for many with multiple buses needed and a journey time of well over an hour. Car journey takes 15mins.

There is massive potential for a Labour routing in the outer boroughs of London.

According TfL a taxi fare in London of up to 20 minutes costs £7- £17.

Even if you had to do the hospital visit every month at the maximum rate it would still be way less than the cost of keeping a car on the road tax, parking, insurance, depreciation, service & MOT, breakdown cover etc even before the pollution charge

It's not quite that simple

For full disclosure, my brother is undergoing chemotherapy at the Royal Marsden and drives over from west London.

Like many others, he can't take public transport due to the nature of treatment and he can't be at the mercy of taxi availability - or, indeed, the cost of a taxi, given the distance and time to get into Kensington.

Luckily his car is allowed in ULEZ.

I'd agree that people who live and work in much of greater London don't in general really need a car, but everyone's situation is different - and having to buy a new car when off work with a life threatening illness (so, from a practical perspective, forget car loans) would be far from ideal.

[Tichtheid]

In my street there are a good dozen non-compliant diesel cars/vans, equating to about 15% of the total vehicles. Some I checked on AutoTrader and their resale price was 15k in several cases. To get an equivalent compliant replacement was going to cost them another 10k.

For some reason the pensioners have not even heard about it. A lot I see walking dogs had no idea they were impacted by it, they are scared by the cost.

A lot of those pensioners said they have to give up driving, Khan’s aim anyway, but hospital visits make this impossible for many with multiple buses needed and a journey time of well over an hour. Car journey takes 15mins.

There is massive potential for a Labour routing in the outer boroughs of London.

According TfL a taxi fare in London of up to 20 minutes costs £7- £17.

Even if you had to do the hospital visit every month at the maximum rate it would still be way less than the cost of keeping a car on the road tax, parking, insurance, depreciation, service & MOT, breakdown cover etc even before the pollution charge

Hospital visits was just one extreme example. Food shopping is another example provided, very soon it mounts up.

Public transport in some outer and more rural boroughs is very sporadic, it is not a simple replacement for the car that many think it can be.

I live in a borough where it is not too bad but every journey is more than doubled by using public transport.

Don’t underestimate how impactful ULEZ is outside of the N/S Circulars.

You can get supermarket delivery slots for around a fiver - the cots of a car sitting unused, before you put petrol in it is around (I'm using Gov data and low estimates) £500 for insurance, MOT and service £300, Annual Parking Permit (Tower Hamlets was the first google) £115, RAC (low ball figure) £100, Fuel costs are dependent on use obviously, to some extent depreciation is too, but I'll ignore those for the time being.

It's around £90 per month before fuel and depreciation to have the car just sit there outside your house, low estimate.

[not_english]

Not sure I buy the public transport is good so you can use it instead argument.
Anyone with younger kids will know that a car is pretty much essential for all sorts of ferrying to clubs and activities which cannot be easily replaced by the bus until they get to an age where you can trust them to take buses by themselves.

Food shopping can perhaps be replaced by home delivery, but there are all sorts of trips where you need to carry stuff which really requires a car.

In addition the transport infrastructure works like spokes on a wheel radiating out from the centre. It is great of you want to go to inner london, but not so good for going in other directions. Going from West London where I live to South West London for instance is a bitch, although not far as the crow flies.

Then if you live inside the ULEZ then any journey at all requires paying the charge, even if you are heading out of London to visit elderly relatives or such. Total pain.

[shaggy]

Ambiguous statement from a legal perspective, but why isn’t this his being stated by him?

Opportunity to blame the government is not missed by Khan in pretty much everything he says, so why is it absent on this topic?

Doesn’t make sense?

[inactionman]

According TfL a taxi fare in London of up to 20 minutes costs £7- £17.

Even if you had to do the hospital visit every month at the maximum rate it would still be way less than the cost of keeping a car on the road tax, parking, insurance, depreciation, service & MOT, breakdown cover etc even before the pollution charge

Hospital visits was just one extreme example. Food shopping is another example provided, very soon it mounts up.

Public transport in some outer and more rural boroughs is very sporadic, it is not a simple replacement for the car that many think it can be.

I live in a borough where it is not too bad but every journey is more than doubled by using public transport.

Don’t underestimate how impactful ULEZ is outside of the N/S Circulars.

You can get supermarket delivery slots for around a fiver - the cots of a car sitting unused, before you put petrol in it is around (I'm using Gov data and low estimates) £500 for insurance, MOT and service £300, Annual Parking Permit (Tower Hamlets was the first google) £115, RAC (low ball figure) £100, Fuel costs are dependent on use obviously, to some extent depreciation is too, but I'll ignore those for the time being.

It's around £90 per month before fuel and depreciation to have the car just sit there outside your house, low estimate.

Probably worth bearing in minds those are sunk costs - ie.e. someone has weighed up their situation and circumstance and opted for a car, which means using the car instead of using other services.

I mention this as this whole balance is disrupted if they find they can no longer use the car as intended - at which point it's further worth considering they may have chosen where to live based upon the decision to drive (ie. many of the poor sods who can't afford to live anywhere on good transport links, which distort rents and house prices). It's not so easy to unpick.

[Tichtheid]

In my street there are a good dozen non-compliant diesel cars/vans, equating to about 15% of the total vehicles. Some I checked on AutoTrader and their resale price was 15k in several cases. To get an equivalent compliant replacement was going to cost them another 10k.

For some reason the pensioners have not even heard about it. A lot I see walking dogs had no idea they were impacted by it, they are scared by the cost.

A lot of those pensioners said they have to give up driving, Khan’s aim anyway, but hospital visits make this impossible for many with multiple buses needed and a journey time of well over an hour. Car journey takes 15mins.

There is massive potential for a Labour routing in the outer boroughs of London.

According TfL a taxi fare in London of up to 20 minutes costs £7- £17.

Even if you had to do the hospital visit every month at the maximum rate it would still be way less than the cost of keeping a car on the road tax, parking, insurance, depreciation, service & MOT, breakdown cover etc even before the pollution charge

It's not quite that simple

For full disclosure, my brother is undergoing chemotherapy at the Royal Marsden and drives over from west London.

Like many others, he can't take public transport due to the nature of treatment and he can't be at the mercy of taxi availability - or, indeed, the cost of a taxi, given the distance and time to get into Kensington.

Luckily his car is allowed in ULEZ.

I'd agree that people who live and work in much of greater London don't in general really need a car, but everyone's situation is different - and having to buy a new car when off work with a life threatening illness (so, from a practical perspective, forget car loans) would be far from ideal.

First, best wishes and good luck to your brother.

I don't think policy can be constructed on extreme situations, where there are extreme situations like that your brother is facing, help should be given - for instance we had a boy in our street who was provided with a taxi to his special needs school.

My mum has to rely on a patient transfer ambulance, but it takes and age and goes all around the county, then she has to wait until the end of the day to start the journey back. At times I've had to travel from Brighton to East Lothian to take her to hospital in Edinburgh when my brother or friends just couldn't do it.

[JM2K6]

Tories: weaponised ULEZ and hailed it as the reason for the narrow win
Labour: claimed ULEZ was weaponised
Voters/residents on call-ins: pointing the finger at ULEZ
Os: it's because Starmer had a chat with Blair the other day


Labour: 43.6% - a +5.9% swing
Greens: 2.9% - a +0.6% swing
Os: Greens prevented Labour winning!!

I caught my fishy.

Compare the Lib Dem voter movement to the Greens (non) voter movement. Same in all three. A chat and laugh with Blair is not a good move if Labour wants to shift those Greens. Which they don't need to now, but lets wait and see once Labour have been in charge of the dumpster fire for awhile.

The Greens are an irrelevance in Uxbridge. And don't make the mistake of assuming a Green vote would normally be a Labour vote - plenty of more moderate Tories see them as an acceptable single issue protest vote without having to vote for the enemy. Obviously the loons go for Reclaim, who were 2.3% compared to 2.6% for the greens, to show how irrelevant both of them were in this battle.

But honestly though, you're barking if you think Starmer talking to Blair has had any cut through at all. It's not news, only the terminally online and tragically political types are even aware it happened, and those who would be so enraged by it are already actively anti Labour on the left and the right.

[Tichtheid]

Probably worth bearing in minds those are sunk costs - ie.e. someone has weighed up their situation and circumstance and opted for a car, which means using the car instead of using other services.

I mention this as this whole balance is disrupted if they find they can no longer use the car as intended - at which point it's further worth considering they may have chosen where to live based upon the decision to drive (ie. many of the poor sods who can't afford to live anywhere on good transport links, which distort rents and house prices). It's not so easy to unpick.

It's not easy to unpick, but you have to start at your end goal and work backwards from there.

The end goal here is to keep or planet from being uninhabitable, that is not being over dramatic.

We have to lower carbon emissions and we don't have the time we thought we had to do so.

[shaggy]

According TfL a taxi fare in London of up to 20 minutes costs £7- £17.

Even if you had to do the hospital visit every month at the maximum rate it would still be way less than the cost of keeping a car on the road tax, parking, insurance, depreciation, service & MOT, breakdown cover etc even before the pollution charge

Hospital visits was just one extreme example. Food shopping is another example provided, very soon it mounts up.

Public transport in some outer and more rural boroughs is very sporadic, it is not a simple replacement for the car that many think it can be.

I live in a borough where it is not too bad but every journey is more than doubled by using public transport.

Don’t underestimate how impactful ULEZ is outside of the N/S Circulars.

You can get supermarket delivery slots for around a fiver - the cots of a car sitting unused, before you put petrol in it is around (I'm using Gov data and low estimates) £500 for insurance, MOT and service £300, Annual Parking Permit (Tower Hamlets was the first google) £115, RAC (low ball figure) £100, Fuel costs are dependent on use obviously, to some extent depreciation is too, but I'll ignore those for the time being.

It's around £90 per month before fuel and depreciation to have the car just sit there outside your house, low estimate.

The car is ingrained in society. Removing it is hard at any time in life but doing it when you have age/mobility needs makes the decision more than just a cost discussion.

Plus those figures don’t add up for a small car fully owned, parked on the driveway that has been looked after, which is what many elderly people have. Not talking about Tower Hamlets, try Bromley or Sutton, outer boroughs which are quite rural.

[Yeeb]

I have no idea where you are wandering around with this but I think you need to read up on domicile , deemed & trusts a bit, as it seems you are giving UK’s power a bit too much credit re influence. A tax loophole and differential is a tax loophole and differential so unclear why somehow federal ones don’t count for you or why according to you it’s only a Uk thing.
Companies / funds / shells can and do move nominal country for tax advantages all the time , it was literally what I did in a couple of my roles in the past. Have a read about German cum-ex scandal which I’ve mentioned to bimbo & TSG on PR a couple of times , that had zero to do with Uk bar the fact that the people making the decisions were in London (although technically they were not ) and their lackeys (of which I was one ) were technically in London.

I need to read up on domicile? Are you sure?

It's obvious where I'm going. You're saying the rich cannot be taxed because they'll move their money elsewhere. I'm saying multiple offshore jurisdictions are ultimately within the power of the UK parliament to control/end. For the difference between US states and the UK system, just compare say the Cayman Island's tax regime to any US state, the other difference is Americans are aware Texas exists and is American, not really the same for the British and the BOTs. There aren't actually many places for the money to move to where it's going to be secure and hidden (it's certainly not moving to Liberia ffs), that means avoiding the US and EU system entirely and avoiding the places it came from (Russia/China/ME/etc). And if it does move, who cares, what stays will actually start paying HMRC. Or the UK can persist with two systems under one roof whilst running a structural deficit and a growing national debt, in a country of 70 millions which is never going to be a Switzerland, and see how long that lasts.

Seems you just want to blame the Uk, aka the Roketz approach . I am far from saying you cannot tax rich, but if you do try to increase it (too much) then the rich are extremely adept at moving it elsewhere , as my corporate commercial stamp duty example I wrote about earlier proved.
Glad that you admit who cares if the money moves elsewhere , and proves you seem to miss the point entirely re Fairness V actual revenue. You seem to genuinely want £1billion revenue generated from a nice fair system of companies that remain in the (however loosely) Uk controlled areas, than £2billion revenue generated under the current system. (Made up numbers not an actual ratio)
What has population size got to do with Switzerland or their tax laws and financial disclosure ? Offshore places offer services that are miles larger than what they could support domestically, and their tax neutrality means it’s the investors tax domicile that is key , not whether there is a Union Jack on its flag. Irish Qaifs are another example.

I’m not that hot on Uk parliamentary law , but I’m not sure it can easily alter any financial rules that offshore Caymen etc places set, because they are self governing.

[Tichtheid]

The car is ingrained in society. Removing it is hard at any time in life but doing it when you have age/mobility needs makes the decision more than just a cost discussion.

Plus those figures don’t add up for a small car fully owned, parked on the driveway that has been looked after, which is what many elderly people have. Not talking about Tower Hamlets, try Bromley or Sutton, outer boroughs which are quite rural.

They re not far off, the insurance cost was for the 65 year old age group, service and MOT were low estimates (I pay around £400, last time was £500). You may not pay for an annual parking permit but you pay for parking most places you drive to.
I didn't include depreciation or fuel in my sums, so the mpg and being fully owned isn't really relevant.


I agree that the car is ingrained in society, that is what has to change.

[shaggy]

Probably worth bearing in minds those are sunk costs - ie.e. someone has weighed up their situation and circumstance and opted for a car, which means using the car instead of using other services.

I mention this as this whole balance is disrupted if they find they can no longer use the car as intended - at which point it's further worth considering they may have chosen where to live based upon the decision to drive (ie. many of the poor sods who can't afford to live anywhere on good transport links, which distort rents and house prices). It's not so easy to unpick.

It's not easy to unpick, but you have to start at your end goal and work backwards from there.

The end goal here is to keep or planet from being uninhabitable, that is not being over dramatic.

We have to lower carbon emissions and we don't have the time we thought we had to do so.

You are measuring decisions against your own expectations. The end goal for many pensioners is to see out their remaining years without massive restrictions. Plus, these people grew up in London when air quality was horrific and they see the air quality today as absolutely fine.

[Tichtheid]

Probably worth bearing in minds those are sunk costs - ie.e. someone has weighed up their situation and circumstance and opted for a car, which means using the car instead of using other services.

I mention this as this whole balance is disrupted if they find they can no longer use the car as intended - at which point it's further worth considering they may have chosen where to live based upon the decision to drive (ie. many of the poor sods who can't afford to live anywhere on good transport links, which distort rents and house prices). It's not so easy to unpick.

It's not easy to unpick, but you have to start at your end goal and work backwards from there.

The end goal here is to keep or planet from being uninhabitable, that is not being over dramatic.

We have to lower carbon emissions and we don't have the time we thought we had to do so.

You are measuring decisions against your own expectations. The end goal for many pensioners is to see out their remaining years without massive restrictions. Plus, these people grew up in London when air quality was horrific and they see the air quality today as absolutely fine.

I expect many of those pensioners will have grandchildren or great grandchildren

The discussion about migration on another thread will seem minuscule when climate change migration starts to happen.

[Sandstorm]

The car is ingrained in society. Removing it is hard at any time in life but doing it when you have age/mobility needs makes the decision more than just a cost discussion.

Plus those figures don’t add up for a small car fully owned, parked on the driveway that has been looked after, which is what many elderly people have. Not talking about Tower Hamlets, try Bromley or Sutton, outer boroughs which are quite rural.

They re not far off, the insurance cost was for the 65 year old age group, service and MOT were low estimates (I pay around £400, last time was £500). You may not pay for an annual parking permit but you pay for parking most places you drive to.
I didn't include depreciation or fuel in my sums, so the mpg and being fully owned isn't really relevant.


I agree that the car is ingrained in society, that is what has to change.

London’s car and motorcycle scrappage scheme provides the following grants:

Motorcycles: £200 - £1,000
Cars: £1,200 - £2,000
Wheelchair-accessible vehicles: £5,000

Not exactly going to get you anywhere near a new car at today's prices!

[Tichtheid]

The car is ingrained in society. Removing it is hard at any time in life but doing it when you have age/mobility needs makes the decision more than just a cost discussion.

Plus those figures don’t add up for a small car fully owned, parked on the driveway that has been looked after, which is what many elderly people have. Not talking about Tower Hamlets, try Bromley or Sutton, outer boroughs which are quite rural.

They re not far off, the insurance cost was for the 65 year old age group, service and MOT were low estimates (I pay around £400, last time was £500). You may not pay for an annual parking permit but you pay for parking most places you drive to.
I didn't include depreciation or fuel in my sums, so the mpg and being fully owned isn't really relevant.


I agree that the car is ingrained in society, that is what has to change.

London’s car and motorcycle scrappage scheme provides the following grants:

Motorcycles: £200 - £1,000
Cars: £1,200 - £2,000
Wheelchair-accessible vehicles: £5,000

Not exactly going to get you anywhere near a new car at today's prices!

Yeah, as far as I'm aware the post-pandemic scarcity of chips (silicon, not salt and vinegar) pushed waiting times and prices up for new cars, and that in turn pushed up prices on second hand cars.


If it can be done, the savings made by not buying a new (or new to you) car will go a long way on public transport.

This is not easy, it's really not convenient, but the consequences of not taking action are much worse in terms of ease and convenience.