The thing about Eddie is that he won't really give a shit about the losses and neither will his players. He will be up front with them that it's all about the world cup and he'll be targeting a particular game but generally getting them in the right mindset and enthusiastic despite all available evidence that they're in a world of shit. And because he has done this time and time again, it buys him time and some measure of respect from the media and his bosses even if it's not really valid any more.
Even now I refuse to write them off for the world cup. But I think that's fairly sensible anyway. He's a better coach than Brian Ashton, for example, and England made a final with him and with a much worse squad. We've seen many teams head into the tournament with big expectations and shit the bed; we've seen underdogs have a great time. So I don't for a second truly believe Australia will crash out with a cup specialist at the helm and the biggest bunker mentality dickhead gearing them towards dying for their country. I am not going to rush out and put money on it.
As England fans we know what we can expect from Borthwick at the world cup. It's going to be set piece focused, regimented, kick heavy, and unimaginative. It is going to be doubly frustrating because although we have a good group of players, it's not obvious to me that our forwards are going to be to impose that particular game plan against several of our opponents and so either we will need a 2007 style set of opponents who can be dragged into a dogfight and beaten, or we'll just get humbled. Eddie for all his faults can be more imaginative and can come up with styles of play that are successful for a short period of time. The last world cup showed that, England were legitimately excellent and the level of detail and thought that went into everything from tackle heights to clearouts was obvious.
Borthwick has done nothing to suggest he can be that instrumental. Taking Tigers back to the top and reversing a decade of internal rot deserves plaudits. But it looks like he's trying to translate the players and the style to the international arena without any thought of how different it is there. It's very early days and it's entirely possible that the man everyone seems to think is a deep thinker about the game isn't actually a one note grind merchant incapable of coming up with something revolutionary to get England out of a hole.
But as it is, I said to a friend yesterday that the best England can hope for is some of the grit shown by Wales in their last world cup. They were outclassed, outgunned, and devoid of excitement, but they fought for every inch, went deep into the tournament, and gave SA a much bigger battle than we did. I think we are in a similar situation to that squad; we have big name players towards the end of their careers dealing with a few seasons of major inconsistency and poor form, new players failing to integrate properly, confusion over what the future looks like, and a deeply negative and conservative coaching staff.
Australia probably feel like they have nothing to lose. Losing every game before the world cup doesn't matter as long as they believe it's in service to the myth of Eddie's Grand Plan, which has a non zero chance of not being a myth. England on the other hand are all in on Borthwick and there's no chance he'd suffer consequences if England crash out really, so we're at far greater risk of further structural damage at the hands of an extremely callow head coach.
This seems like another huge red flag to me, but perhaps I'm missing something and actually there's nothing to worry about here:
Premiership clubs are lobbying the government to defer the repayment of Covid-era emergency loans, as they continue to operate on a financial knife-edge.
The top flight has been reduced to 10 teams following the collapse of Worcester, Wasps and London Irish last season - and those still afloat are grappling with a mountain of debt.
It is understood that a collective sum of around £100million is owed to the Government for funds which were handed out during the pandemic, and that repayments are due to begin soon. Some clubs may have even made initial instalments already.
Japan and Argentina are scary. Whilst topping the pool is obviously preferable, assuming the opponents would be Wales or Aus, even with Wales as they are, they'd absolutely come for us, I don't necessarily think that either would be significantly easier or harder.
Obviously the idea that Fiji takes the 2nd place in Pool C, makes topping our pool a nicer idea.
I'm basically more afraid of not getting out of the pool, than whether we place 1st or 2nd.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.
sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:07 am
Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.
I mean I'm glad we get them early on, before they'll hopefully have had too much chance to get into the swing of things, but I really think they're going to be a very solid opposition, and I don't have much confidence in our gameplan at the moment.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:07 am
Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.
Agree, setting up for a Brighton comeuppance, but I struggle to see us losing to Japan. Whilst you'd clearly respect any RWC opponents, they don't look huge threat at the moment.
sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:07 am
Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.
I mean I'm glad we get them early on, before they'll hopefully have had too much chance to get into the swing of things, but I really think they're going to be a very solid opposition, and I don't have much confidence in our gameplan at the moment.
Eddie's England team at their worst and most uncreative still managed to beat Japan 52 -13 at the end of last year. Even though the only change Borthwick has managed to introduce thus far is a more porous defence, I'm with Sock in that I don't think Japan are too much of a threat to England.
We are fortunate to be in one of the weakest groups at the World Cup, so should at least come 2nd and get as far as the knockout stages.
sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:07 am
Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.
I mean I'm glad we get them early on, before they'll hopefully have had too much chance to get into the swing of things, but I really think they're going to be a very solid opposition, and I don't have much confidence in our gameplan at the moment.
Eddie's England team at their worst and most uncreative still managed to beat Japan 52 -13 at the end of last year. Even though the only change Borthwick has managed to introduce thus far is a more porous defence, I'm with Sock in that I don't think Japan are too much of a threat to England.
We are fortunate to be in one of the weakest groups at the World Cup, so should at least come 2nd and get as far as the knockout stages.
Japan in a world cup is a very different beast in my mind. We'll see though.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:07 am
Prepared for it to come back and bite me, but Japan hold zero fear. Their results between the 2015 and 2019 world cups were crap, spending 8 months in national camp and playing a home tournament saw them punch well above their weight for the 2019 tournament. Covid means they haven't played much since then, but they haven't shown anything to suggest we should be worried about them. They've had some realtively close games against B teams, but any time someone fields a pretty full strength side the score is pretty lopsided.
I mean I'm glad we get them early on, before they'll hopefully have had too much chance to get into the swing of things, but I really think they're going to be a very solid opposition, and I don't have much confidence in our gameplan at the moment.
Eddie's England team at their worst and most uncreative still managed to beat Japan 52 -13 at the end of last year. Even though the only change Borthwick has managed to introduce thus far is a more porous defence, I'm with Sock in that I don't think Japan are too much of a threat to England.
We are fortunate to be in one of the weakest groups at the World Cup, so should at least come 2nd and get as far as the knockout stages.
Pool C's not looking too hot either. It's a weak whole half of the draw to be honest and two teams from pools C and D are going to be able to make the semis woefully unsuited to taking on their counterparts from the other side of the draw.
I mean I'm glad we get them early on, before they'll hopefully have had too much chance to get into the swing of things, but I really think they're going to be a very solid opposition, and I don't have much confidence in our gameplan at the moment.
Eddie's England team at their worst and most uncreative still managed to beat Japan 52 -13 at the end of last year. Even though the only change Borthwick has managed to introduce thus far is a more porous defence, I'm with Sock in that I don't think Japan are too much of a threat to England.
We are fortunate to be in one of the weakest groups at the World Cup, so should at least come 2nd and get as far as the knockout stages.
Pool C's not looking too hot either. It's a weak whole half of the draw to be honest and two teams from pools C and D are going to be able to make the semis woefully unsuited to taking on their counterparts from the other side of the draw.
All bets are off at RWCs surely? England beat Argentina, Australia and NZ on the way to the final and looked completely unprepared for that game
Eddie's England team at their worst and most uncreative still managed to beat Japan 52 -13 at the end of last year. Even though the only change Borthwick has managed to introduce thus far is a more porous defence, I'm with Sock in that I don't think Japan are too much of a threat to England.
We are fortunate to be in one of the weakest groups at the World Cup, so should at least come 2nd and get as far as the knockout stages.
Pool C's not looking too hot either. It's a weak whole half of the draw to be honest and two teams from pools C and D are going to be able to make the semis woefully unsuited to taking on their counterparts from the other side of the draw.
All bets are off at RWCs surely? England beat Argentina, Australia and NZ on the way to the final and looked completely unprepared for that game
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some teams go exactly as you'd expect, others pull something out of the bag. I don't think form going in can be completely ignored.
The NZ semi was the first game England played against decent opposition in 2019, beating those Aus and Argentina teams wasn't much of an achievement.
Underhill and Rodd cut from the squad.
Not sure Underhill should still be playing with nall the concussion issues he's had
A little surprised about Rodd though with Borthwick persuading Marler to rejoing the squad it was always llikely to happen.
SaintK wrote: Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:00 am
Underhill and Rodd cut from the squad.
Not sure Underhill should still be playing with nall the concussion issues he's had
A little surprised about Rodd though with Borthwick persuading Marler to rejoing the squad it was always llikely to happen.
Not watched much this season, but Rodd seems like a very handy player. However, Marler is very good, Genge too, and I think VRR is still in the squad?
You can build some tasty packs with a huge amount of rucking/turnover potential. Best way to kill all the quick ball that the likes of NZ thrive on.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
SaintK wrote: Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:00 am
Underhill and Rodd cut from the squad.
Not sure Underhill should still be playing with nall the concussion issues he's had
A little surprised about Rodd though with Borthwick persuading Marler to rejoing the squad it was always llikely to happen.
Not watched much this season, but Rodd seems like a very handy player. However, Marler is very good, Genge too, and I think VRR is still in the squad?
You can build some tasty packs with a huge amount of rucking/turnover potential. Best way to kill all the quick ball that the likes of NZ thrive on.
Mako is also still lurking on the rehab list with a couple of others. The press release made a point of saying that those players were being considered for the final squad.
SaintK wrote: Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:00 am
Underhill and Rodd cut from the squad. Not sure Underhill should still be playing with nall the concussion issues he's had
A little surprised about Rodd though with Borthwick persuading Marler to rejoing the squad it was always llikely to happen.
It is a worry, and regardless of that he's only played (I think) 8 matches this season just passed so a World Cup was always a stretch.
I only checked out the early fixtures so completely missed this when I looked at the new season fixture lists - the league will pause in late Jan through to March to clear the decks for the 6N.
It'll start a bit later but still overlap with latter end of World Cup, and end with the final in early June.
Others who are more observant than me probably picked this up already. Has this happened before?
inactionman wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:34 am
I only checked out the early fixtures so completely missed this when I looked at the new season fixture lists - the league will pause in late Jan through to March to clear the decks for the 6N.
It'll start a bit later but still overlap with latter end of World Cup, and end with the final in early June.
Others who are more observant than me probably picked this up already. Has this happened before?
We discussed it a few months ago - next season is insane really.
In other news, Marcus Smith has extended his contract at Quins.
inactionman wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:34 am
I only checked out the early fixtures so completely missed this when I looked at the new season fixture lists - the league will pause in late Jan through to March to clear the decks for the 6N.
It'll start a bit later but still overlap with latter end of World Cup, and end with the final in early June.
Others who are more observant than me probably picked this up already. Has this happened before?
We discussed it a few months ago - next season is insane really.
In other news, Marcus Smith has extended his contract at Quins.
Thought it would have been mentioned. As a club fan I like it in concept, but as it stands it just makes the season mental - especially for internationals.
Raggs wrote: Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:12 am
Mako, Billy, Chessum and a couple of others isn't it?
Hoping the Vunipola's don't make it.
Lawrence and Walker are the other two. Lawrence is probably the only one I'd be waiting for to prove his fitness given our lack of 12 options.
Even with Sarries going well neither Vunipola was in form that demanded selection. I wouldn't want to gamble on how they'll be playing after missing most of the tournament prep through injury.
inactionman wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:34 am
I only checked out the early fixtures so completely missed this when I looked at the new season fixture lists - the league will pause in late Jan through to March to clear the decks for the 6N.
It'll start a bit later but still overlap with latter end of World Cup, and end with the final in early June.
Others who are more observant than me probably picked this up already. Has this happened before?
We discussed it a few months ago - next season is insane really.
In other news, Marcus Smith has extended his contract at Quins.
Thought it would have been mentioned. As a club fan I like it in concept, but as it stands it just makes the season mental - especially for internationals.
CEOs and DoRs of the clubs who've openly advocated for the 10 team league went big on being able to see international stars more often. They seem to think it's key to driving attendances and general interest in the league.
Indeed. Other than experience it's really not clear what they have to offer over other options and there comes a point where form has to trump experience. One thing the All Blacks always seem consistently good at is bringing through new wingers when it's time.
sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:28 pm
Indeed. Other than experience it's really not clear what they have to offer over other options and there comes a point where form has to trump experience. One thing the All Blacks always seem consistently good at is bringing through new wingers when it's time.
Mostly they just seem to bring through new wingers.
Some nations go after the necks of their tighthead props from a young age, NZ seem to go after ligaments and twitch muscle on young and agile, speedsters
Margin__Walker wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:24 am
Yeah, a few more signings here and there. Powell was terrible last season, for a player with a decent pedigree. McKeller will know him well though and I guess he'll be third choice at Leicester anyway.
Ben Atkins - Rams
Matt Cornish Agustín Creevy - Sale
Ignacio Ruiz Lovejoy Chawatama - Harlequins
Luke Green
Ciaran Parker
Danilo Fischetti
Will Goodrick-Clarke Ollie Hoskins - Saracens Josh Caulfield - Bristol
Adam Coleman Chunya Munga - Northampton
Api Ratuniyarawa Ed Scragg - Scarlets
Josh Basham Ben Donnell - Gloucester
Jack Cooke So'otala Fa'aso'o - Perpignan
Juan Martín González
Izaia Moore-Aiono Tom Pearson - Northampton Matt Rogerson (c)- Leicester
Josh Smart Caolan Englefield - Gloucester Joe Powell - Leicester Ben White - Toulon Jacob Atkins - Rovigo Paddy Jackson - Lyon Rory Jennings - Newcastle
Tom Hitchcock Benhard Janse van Rensburg - Bristol Will Joseph - Harlequins
Luca Morisi
Eddie Poolman
Matt Williams
Ben Loader Lucio Cinti - Saracens Henry Arundell - Racing 92
Kyle Rowe
Tom Collins Michael Dykes - Gloucester
Calum Scott
Joe Vajner Afolabi Fasogbon - Gloucester Tarek Haffar - Northampton
Mikey Summerfield Chandler Cunningham-South - Harlequins
Jarlath Gleeson
Lucas Brooke Ollie Allan - Leicester
Monty Bradbury
Conor Cross
Jake Shortland
Jack Walsh
Alexander Harmes
Ralph McEachran Rory Taylor - Gloucester
Finn Worley Brady
Toby Maddock
Charlie Moss
Sounds like Sarries have pipped Bristol in signing Juan Martín González for next season
Latest list. Actually pleasantly surprised by how many have picked up contracts already before the end of July. It looks like most of the senior squad will before the start of the season (albeit with the upheaval of unplanned moves and potential pay cuts). A few of those left like Loader and Collins sound like they have signed and are just waiting for announcements. Can't imagine the like of WGC, Ruiz, Basham and Morisi will have too much of an issue.
The others are likely struggling for prem or equivalent gigs.
Still some good academy prospects there. Vajner, Brooke, Bradbury and Harmes in particular.
Ben Atkins - Rams (ND1) Matt Cornish - Ealing Agustín Creevy - Sale
Ignacio Ruiz Lovejoy Chawatama - Harlequins
Luke Green
Ciaran Parker Danilo Fischetti - Zebre
Will Goodrick-Clarke Ollie Hoskins - Saracens Josh Caulfield - Bristol Adam Coleman - Bordeaux Chunya Munga - Northampton Api Ratuniyarawa - Bayonne Ed Scragg - Scarlets
Josh Basham Ben Donnell - Gloucester
Jack Cooke So'otala Fa'aso'o - Perpignan Juan Martín González - Saracens
Izaia Moore-Aiono Tom Pearson - Northampton Matt Rogerson (c)- Leicester
Josh Smart Caolan Englefield - Gloucester Joe Powell - Leicester Ben White - Toulon Jacob Atkins - Rovigo Paddy Jackson - Lyon Rory Jennings - Newcastle Tom Hitchcock - Ealing Benhard Janse van Rensburg - Bristol Will Joseph - Harlequins
Luca Morisi
Eddie Poolman
Matt Williams
Ben Loader Lucio Cinti - Saracens Henry Arundell - Racing 92 Kyle Rowe - Glasgow
Tom Collins Michael Dykes - Gloucester
Calum Scott - Rams (ND1)
Joe Vajner Afolabi Fasogbon - Gloucester Tarek Haffar - Northampton Mikey Summerfield - Bath Chandler Cunningham-South - Harlequins Jarlath Gleeson - Lyon
Lucas Brooke Ollie Allan - Leicester
Monty Bradbury
Conor Cross George Makepeace-Cubitt - Rams (ND1)
Jake Shortland
Jack Walsh
Alexander Harmes Ralph McEachran - Sale Rory Taylor - Gloucester
Finn Worley Brady
Toby Maddock
Charlie Moss
Margin__Walker wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:50 pm
Crazy back row options for them next season.
It's going to be some backrow that Saracens can put out every week. Theo McFarland was the best player in the league before he got injured, Ben Earl seems to play rugby with cheat modes activated, BillyV is the dump truck and now Saracens have added the Argentinian version of McFarland to go with Andy Christie, Ollie Stoneham and Toby Knight.
They might not miss Jackson Wray as much as at I thought they would but he still leaves a big hole to fill.
Margin__Walker wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:50 pm
Crazy back row options for them next season.
It's going to be some backrow that Saracens can put out every week. Theo McFarland was the best player in the league before he got injured, Ben Earl seems to play rugby with cheat modes activated, BillyV is the dump truck and now Saracens have added the Argentinian version of McFarland to go with Andy Christie, Ollie Stoneham and Toby Knight.
They might not miss Jackson Wray as much as at I thought they would but he still leaves a big hole to fill.
