The Official English Rugby Thread

[Tichtheid]

Personally I think Lawes became a better player when he switched to blindside on a permanent basis, he ditched lot of the tough guy act and was a much better rugby player for it, maybe he was acting up because he felt he was underpowered, I don't know, that possibility only just occurred to me as I was reading the thread. There was no real need for him to play lock as Itoje, Kruis and Launchbury were as good as you get.

World Class is a subjective term, for me it means someone who would definitely be in a world XXIII to play Mars - Kaino, Dusautoir, PS du Toit, O'Brien (who played more like a 6 than the 7 that was on his back), that sort of player.

[SaintK]

Personally I think Lawes became a better player when he switched to blindside on a permanent basis, he ditched lot of the tough guy act and was a much better rugby player for it, maybe he was acting up because he felt he was underpowered, I don't know, that possibility only just occurred to me as I was reading the thread. There was no real need for him to play lock as Itoje, Kruis and Launchbury were as good as you get.

World Class is a subjective term, for me it means someone who would definitely be in a world XXIII to play Mars - Kaino, Dusautoir, PS du Toit, O'Brien (who played more like a 6 than the 7 that was on his back), that sort of player.

I've watched him since he was 18 and he's never been the "tough guy" enforcer type though never got pushed around. He's got better and better with age and maturity particularly when he stopped constantly looking for the big hit tackle every match.

[Kawazaki]

Lawes is a superb player but he's basically a taller version of Tom Croft with less pace.

[Tichtheid]

Personally I think Lawes became a better player when he switched to blindside on a permanent basis, he ditched lot of the tough guy act and was a much better rugby player for it, maybe he was acting up because he felt he was underpowered, I don't know, that possibility only just occurred to me as I was reading the thread. There was no real need for him to play lock as Itoje, Kruis and Launchbury were as good as you get.

World Class is a subjective term, for me it means someone who would definitely be in a world XXIII to play Mars - Kaino, Dusautoir, PS du Toit, O'Brien (who played more like a 6 than the 7 that was on his back), that sort of player.

I've watched him since he was 18 and he's never been the "tough guy" enforcer type though never got pushed around. He's got better and better with age and maturity particularly when he stopped constantly looking for the big hit tackle every match.

Yeah, the big hit was what I was referring to, really.

[SaintK]

Lawes is a superb player but he's basically a taller version of Tom Croft with less pace.

Croft was a freak!! Shame he was so prone to injury!

[JM2K6]

South African blindsides look like massive centres. Lawes looks like a basketball player.

I hear basketball players can make for potentially world class blindsides...

If they also look like massive centres then yes they can be.

Lawes is a pumped up skinny bloke. He'll weigh less than 100kgs within a few years of retirement from rugby.

I think he's naturally bigger than that but yes, he doesn't look like a classic 6. You wouldn't expect a man built like him to have the power he does, the accuracy and weight in the tackle, and the footwork when doing the heavy carrying. It works out though.

[Kawazaki]

I hear basketball players can make for potentially world class blindsides...

If they also look like massive centres then yes they can be.

Lawes is a pumped up skinny bloke. He'll weigh less than 100kgs within a few years of retirement from rugby.

I think he's naturally bigger than that but yes, he doesn't look like a classic 6. You wouldn't expect a man built like him to have the power he does, the accuracy and weight in the tackle, and the footwork when doing the heavy carrying. It works out though.

He's a great player who has had a great career - huge work ethic.

He's a great bench option really - not really starter material but often he's the best England have had. Mind you, while England continue to pick players like Ludlam then Lawes will always look good as a backrow option.

[sockwithaticket]

That was dogshit. We might be less dogshit with more of the regular starters back in, but there's little sign of a game plan still and that's the big worry.

[Raggs]

Probably should have turned off earlier, but in the 79th minute, when we win a pen and we're 11 down, we need to quick tap immediately... No urgency, no care/awareness.

[Stranger]

Too many players looked like they didn't know what they should be doing - that has to be down to the coaching / game plan.

[inactionman]

I'm not that familiar with how the whole 57 old farts things works at he RFU, but this has been nagging me -who is responsible for appointing Bill Sweeney, and more importantly, who can get rid of him?

I can't see what he's done that's actually benefited the team (or, frankly, the game in England), and there's a lot that is negative.

I'll not comment much on the game, there was good pressure in the opening stages but constantly ruined by poor hands, but after that is was just bosh it up or kick.

On a positive Marchant continues to impress me - good job then that he's off to France next season.

[Hal Jordan]

Can we have Care back at Quins, please, because if England are just going to box kick the fucking ball all day we may as well get Wiggy out of retirement.

[JM2K6]

I mean, they were accurate kicks, so if we're going to do it...


...Maybe pick a winger who can actually fucking jump

[Paddington Bear]

I said this during the 6N, but I have this sense that the England boys enjoy playing international rugby far less than other nations. No spark, a general lack of intensity and constant dim wittedness. Can’t expect anything at the WC

[Torquemada 1420]

I said this during the 6N, but I have this sense that the England boys enjoy playing international rugby far less than other nations. No spark, a general lack of intensity and constant dim wittedness. Can’t expect anything at the WC

That was no secret under Eddie's regime but why would that be the case under Borthwick?

[JM2K6]

I said this during the 6N, but I have this sense that the England boys enjoy playing international rugby far less than other nations. No spark, a general lack of intensity and constant dim wittedness. Can’t expect anything at the WC

That was no secret under Eddie's regime but why would that be the case under Borthwick?

Kick and chase plus one out crash ball is fucking boring

[ASMO]

Shared with me from a usually reliable source...lets call him Jake....the squad as will be announced tomrorow

No Tom Willis
No Dombrandt
No Henry Slade

Forwards E Genge, J Marler, B Rodd, J George, J Walker, T Dan, K Sinckler, D Cole, W Stuart, M Itoje, O Chessum, G Martin, D Ribbans, C Lawes, L Ludlam, T Curry, J Willis, B Earl, B Vunipola.

Backs B Youngs, D Care, J van Poortvliet, O Farrell, G Ford, M Smith, M Tuilagi, O Lawrence, J Marchant, A Watson, E Daly, M Malins, H Arundell, F Steward

[Hal Jordan]

Probably should have turned off earlier, but in the 79th minute, when we win a pen and we're 11 down, we need to quick tap immediately... No urgency, no care/awareness.

Christ, yes, I didn't even bother to shout at the telly, I just accepted it like Liam Neeson accepts his death in Batman Begins.

[Kawazaki]

Shared with me from a usually reliable source...lets call him Jake....the squad as will be announced tomrorow

No Tom Willis
No Dombrandt
No Henry Slade

Forwards E Genge, J Marler, B Rodd, J George, J Walker, T Dan, K Sinckler, D Cole, W Stuart, M Itoje, O Chessum, G Martin, D Ribbans, C Lawes, L Ludlam, T Curry, J Willis, B Earl, B Vunipola.

Backs B Youngs, D Care, J van Poortvliet, O Farrell, G Ford, M Smith, M Tuilagi, O Lawrence, J Marchant, A Watson, E Daly, M Malins, H Arundell, F Steward

Best XV from that squad;

1. Genge
2. George
3. Stuart
4. Itoje
5. Ribbans
6. Willis
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Traffic Cone
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Farrell
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Steward

[JM2K6]

Think I'd prefer Chessum over Ribbans, but it's fairly tight. The back row leaves us very short in the lineout and I think you have to shoehorn one of Lawes or Ludlam in there, sadly.

Daly is lucky to be there but if that's the list of potential wings then it's a shocker of a situation for England to be in - a gamble on Watson still being up to it, Daly being picked on past glorious and some performances at 13, Malins always a livewire but off the back of a pretty dreadful showing at the weekend, a hugely impressive kid with very little experience, and a centre who can cover wing. So much time wasted on Cokanasiga while one of the best try scorers in the league for the past few seasons kicks his heels without a chance coming his way. Fark.

I suppose it would be no surprise if Watson/Daly/Malins/Arundell are the primary wing pool, given they've all played fullback and we want to kick the shit out of it. Marchant's great in the air too.

I hope the rumour is wrong because it gives us a really weird squad:

- 3 hookers, one of whom is top class, one is a big body who is probably just club class with a few international caps, one of whom has a single cap where he absolutely shit the bed in dramatic fashion
- 3 tightheads, one of whom is a million years old, one of whom has gone badly downhill since he left his first club, and the other is injury prone
- George Martin overtaking a few players on the back of being a Leicester Tiger who tries really, really hard but as we saw at the weekend, not always to any actual effect
- A back row selection with one actual number 8 who is coming back from injury (something he usually really struggles to do) with a really ropy record at world cups, a lot of players who've made their names as opensides, and a couple who'll do a job at 6
- 3 scrum halves, 2 of which are a thousand years old and it should've been one or the other plus someone like Mitchell
- The wing situation above
- One 12 who plays completely differently to all the other options
- Tuilagi and his endless fitness drama

(admittedly if Jack Willis has to play 8 it'll probably be fine)

You can parse a few good 10/12/13 combos there. All 3 flyhalves can line up with variations that would suit them. But it's all meaningless as we just want to run into things and boot the ball in the air.

[Ovals]

Think I'd prefer Chessum over Ribbans, but it's fairly tight. The back row leaves us very short in the lineout and I think you have to shoehorn one of Lawes or Ludlam in there, sadly.

Daly is lucky to be there but if that's the list of potential wings then it's a shocker of a situation for England to be in - a gamble on Watson still being up to it, Daly being picked on past glorious and some performances at 13, Malins always a livewire but off the back of a pretty dreadful showing at the weekend, a hugely impressive kid with very little experience, and a centre who can cover wing. So much time wasted on Cokanasiga while one of the best try scorers in the league for the past few seasons kicks his heels without a chance coming his way. Fark.

I suppose it would be no surprise if Watson/Daly/Malins/Arundell are the primary wing pool, given they've all played fullback and we want to kick the shit out of it. Marchant's great in the air too.

I hope the rumour is wrong because it gives us a really weird squad:

- 3 hookers, one of whom is top class, one is a big body who is probably just club class with a few international caps, one of whom has a single cap where he absolutely shit the bed in dramatic fashion
- 3 tightheads, one of whom is a million years old, one of whom has gone badly downhill since he left his first club, and the other is injury prone
- George Martin overtaking a few players on the back of being a Leicester Tiger who tries really, really hard but as we saw at the weekend, not always to any actual effect
- A back row selection with one actual number 8 who is coming back from injury (something he usually really struggles to do) with a really ropy record at world cups, a lot of players who've made their names as opensides, and a couple who'll do a job at 6
- 3 scrum halves, 2 of which are a thousand years old and it should've been one or the other plus someone like Mitchell
- The wing situation above
- One 12 who plays completely differently to all the other options
- Tuilagi and his endless fitness drama

(admittedly if Jack Willis has to play 8 it'll probably be fine)

You can parse a few good 10/12/13 combos there. All 3 flyhalves can line up with variations that would suit them. But it's all meaningless as we just want to run into things and boot the ball in the air.

Agree with most of that - but I suspect Ludlam or Curry will be more likely to play 8 than Jack Willis. Which would be fine as long as we don't expect them to keep battering into heavy trafic but use them to provide faster ruck ball and slow down oppo ball. Lawes/Curry/Ludlam and Willis are all decent carriers, in the right circumstances - but not just 'truckin it up'.

TBH - I've pretty much written off this WC cycle and had done so long before they canned the poisoned dwarf. Hope we'll see a bit of a clear out and a fresh approach starting next year.

[ASMO]

Shared with me from a usually reliable source...lets call him Jake....the squad as will be announced tomrorow

No Tom Willis
No Dombrandt
No Henry Slade

Forwards E Genge, J Marler, B Rodd, J George, J Walker, T Dan, K Sinckler, D Cole, W Stuart, M Itoje, O Chessum, G Martin, D Ribbans, C Lawes, L Ludlam, T Curry, J Willis, B Earl, B Vunipola.

Backs B Youngs, D Care, J van Poortvliet, O Farrell, G Ford, M Smith, M Tuilagi, O Lawrence, J Marchant, A Watson, E Daly, M Malins, H Arundell, F Steward

Best XV from that squad;

1. Genge
2. George
3. Stuart
4. Itoje
5. Ribbans
6. Willis
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Dried dog turd
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Farrell
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Arundell

Slightly amended, will give it far more attacking threat

[JM2K6]

Agree with most of that - but I suspect Ludlam or Curry will be more likely to play 8 than Jack Willis. Which would be fine as long as we don't expect them to keep battering into heavy trafic but use them to provide faster ruck ball and slow down oppo ball. Lawes/Curry/Ludlam and Willis are all decent carriers, in the right circumstances - but not just 'truckin it up'.

TBH - I've pretty much written off this WC cycle and had done so long before they canned the poisoned dwarf. Hope we'll see a bit of a clear out and a fresh approach starting next year.

Jack Willis is a good heavy carrier.

[LenCohen]

Forwards look fair enough apart from Martin, no idea what he's done to be included. Have thought for ages that first choice back row is lawes and Willis with curry at 8. Out of necessity rather than choice. First choice front row is ok (genge George Stewart), after that no the best. Backs...other than Lwarnce and steward; sheesh

[sockwithaticket]

Agree with most of that - but I suspect Ludlam or Curry will be more likely to play 8 than Jack Willis. Which would be fine as long as we don't expect them to keep battering into heavy trafic but use them to provide faster ruck ball and slow down oppo ball. Lawes/Curry/Ludlam and Willis are all decent carriers, in the right circumstances - but not just 'truckin it up'.

TBH - I've pretty much written off this WC cycle and had done so long before they canned the poisoned dwarf. Hope we'll see a bit of a clear out and a fresh approach starting next year.

Jack Willis is a good heavy carrier.

And will have substantially more games at 8 under his belt than Curry. Curry at 8 is something we should only be repeating in extremis, the pack have enough problems without adding to them.

[notfatcat]

Best XV from that squad;

1. Genge
2. George
3. Stuart
4. Itoje
5. Ribbans
6. Willis
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Piotr Kosewicz
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Farrell
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Arundell

Amended again to improve passing from the base.

[Ovals]

Agree with most of that - but I suspect Ludlam or Curry will be more likely to play 8 than Jack Willis. Which would be fine as long as we don't expect them to keep battering into heavy trafic but use them to provide faster ruck ball and slow down oppo ball. Lawes/Curry/Ludlam and Willis are all decent carriers, in the right circumstances - but not just 'truckin it up'.

TBH - I've pretty much written off this WC cycle and had done so long before they canned the poisoned dwarf. Hope we'll see a bit of a clear out and a fresh approach starting next year.

Jack Willis is a good heavy carrier.

And will have substantially more games at 8 under his belt than Curry. Curry at 8 is something we should only be repeating in extremis, the pack have enough problems without adding to them.

Really ?? He's only played there a handful of times.

[JM2K6]

Jack Willis is a good heavy carrier.

And will have substantially more games at 8 under his belt than Curry. Curry at 8 is something we should only be repeating in extremis, the pack have enough problems without adding to them.

Really ?? He's only played there a handful of times.

He's had a fair few games there for wasps.

[sockwithaticket]

Jack Willis is a good heavy carrier.

And will have substantially more games at 8 under his belt than Curry. Curry at 8 is something we should only be repeating in extremis, the pack have enough problems without adding to them.

Really ?? He's only played there a handful of times.

Even if it were only a handful he'd still be ahead of Curry when it comes to experience at 8, but it was definitelyu more than that.

[Paddington Bear]

Absolute best case with that squad?

- easy enough wins over Japan and Samoa who can’t cope up front
- squeeze out Argentina by exploiting poor discipline and kicking giga amounts of penalties
- squeeze out runner up from the other pool if it’s Oz/Wales, overwhelm them if it’s Fiji/Georgia
- one off burst of intensity a la Dublin except we convert a try scoring opportunity/they get a red/panic
- lose by 20 in the final.

[Ovals]

And will have substantially more games at 8 under his belt than Curry. Curry at 8 is something we should only be repeating in extremis, the pack have enough problems without adding to them.

Really ?? He's only played there a handful of times.

Even if it were only a handful he'd still be ahead of Curry when it comes to experience at 8, but it was definitelyu more than that.

Occupied positions by Jack on start team :

Back Row : 70 times ( Openside Flanker 51%, Blindside Flanker 43%, Number 8 6% )

[JM2K6]

Really ?? He's only played there a handful of times.

Even if it were only a handful he'd still be ahead of Curry when it comes to experience at 8, but it was definitelyu more than that.

Occupied positions by Jack on start team :

Back Row : 70 times ( Openside Flanker 51%, Blindside Flanker 43%, Number 8 6% )

He came off the bench to play 8 a fair few times in one particular season.

[sockwithaticket]

And also had some games where he switched to 8 having started in a different position.

We're getting a bit away from the main point, though, which was not to say that Willis is some vastly experienced frontline 8 option, just that if any of our back rowers need to fill in there he's got more experience in that position than Curry. Which speaks more to how rarely Curry's performed that role than how often Willis has.

[Hal Jordan]

Squad confirmed, we're half an hour on and look how excited we all are!

England squad

Forwards:

Ollie Chessum (Leicester), Dan Cole (Leicester), Tom Curry (Sale), Theo Dan (Saracens), Ben Earl (Saracens), Ellis Genge (Bristol), Jamie George (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), David Ribbans (Toulon), Bevan Rodd (Sale), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Jack Walker (Harlequins), Jack Willis (Toulouse)

Backs:

Henry Arundell (Racing 92), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Sale), Ollie Lawrence (Bath), Max Malins (Bristol), Joe Marchant (Stade Francais), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester), Anthony Watson (unattached), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

[el capitan]

Gets worse the more you look at it

[inactionman]

Squad confirmed, we're half an hour on and look how excited we all are!

England squad

Forwards:

Ollie Chessum (Leicester), Dan Cole (Leicester), Tom Curry (Sale), Theo Dan (Saracens), Ben Earl (Saracens), Ellis Genge (Bristol), Jamie George (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), David Ribbans (Toulon), Bevan Rodd (Sale), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Jack Walker (Harlequins), Jack Willis (Toulouse)

Backs:

Henry Arundell (Racing 92), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Sale), Ollie Lawrence (Bath), Max Malins (Bristol), Joe Marchant (Stade Francais), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester), Anthony Watson (unattached), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

Looks pretty much as discussed/predicted - the Wales game was a last chance saloon for a number of players, so given poor performance there's not many revelations.

Still no idea what our midfield is going to look like. Merchant has been a bright spot in terms of running rugby so a well deserved spot in front of Slade, and Lawrence has put in some very tidy performances prior to injury, but I'm sure Tuilagi will be shovelled in there somewhere, as will Farrell if Smith is at 10.

Hypothesising about the England midfield. Plus ça change.

[ASMO]

Squad confirmed, we're half an hour on and look how excited we all are!

England squad

Forwards:

Ollie Chessum (Leicester), Dan Cole (Leicester), Tom Curry (Sale), Theo Dan (Saracens), Ben Earl (Saracens), Ellis Genge (Bristol), Jamie George (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), David Ribbans (Toulon), Bevan Rodd (Sale), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Jack Walker (Harlequins), Jack Willis (Toulouse)

Backs:

Henry Arundell (Racing 92), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Sale), Ollie Lawrence (Bath), Max Malins (Bristol), Joe Marchant (Stade Francais), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester), Anthony Watson (unattached), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

Looks pretty much as discussed/predicted - the Wales game was a last chance saloon for a number of players, so given poor performance there's not many revelations.

Still no idea what our midfield is going to look like. Merchant has been a bright spot in terms of running rugby so a well deserved spot in front of Slade, and Lawrence has put in some very tidy performances prior to injury, but I'm sure Tuilagi will be shovelled in there somewhere, as will Farrell if Smith is at 10.

Hypothesising about the England midfield. Plus ça change.

does it really matter? with Youngs and Farrell inside them all they will b doing is chasing kicks anyway.

[inactionman]

Squad confirmed, we're half an hour on and look how excited we all are!

England squad

Forwards:

Ollie Chessum (Leicester), Dan Cole (Leicester), Tom Curry (Sale), Theo Dan (Saracens), Ben Earl (Saracens), Ellis Genge (Bristol), Jamie George (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), David Ribbans (Toulon), Bevan Rodd (Sale), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Jack Walker (Harlequins), Jack Willis (Toulouse)

Backs:

Henry Arundell (Racing 92), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Sale), Ollie Lawrence (Bath), Max Malins (Bristol), Joe Marchant (Stade Francais), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester), Anthony Watson (unattached), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

Looks pretty much as discussed/predicted - the Wales game was a last chance saloon for a number of players, so given poor performance there's not many revelations.

Still no idea what our midfield is going to look like. Merchant has been a bright spot in terms of running rugby so a well deserved spot in front of Slade, and Lawrence has put in some very tidy performances prior to injury, but I'm sure Tuilagi will be shovelled in there somewhere, as will Farrell if Smith is at 10.

Hypothesising about the England midfield. Plus ça change.

does it really matter? with Youngs and Farrell inside them all they will b doing is chasing kicks anyway.

I'll mark you down as 'unconvinced' then.

[Joost]

Ugh, could make a decent side out of that squad on paper if everyone was on-form and we had some sort of cohesive game plan - let’s see but not looking promising so far (as basic a skill as holding onto the ball would’ve been a start at the weekend!).

Is Dan really the third best hooker we have? Couldn’t hit a barn door at the weekend or hold onto the ball in contact. Scrum also went to sh!t when the replacement front row came on (probably not his fault tbf)

Not too surprised re Slade, he’s only ever looked good for England at 13 outside a big centre and only then intermittently, has had plenty of opportunities to establish himself as a key England player and hasn’t done it. Having Farrell at 10 or 12 next to him hasn’t helped.

Thought Care played pretty well at the weekend, JvP coming on killed all pace and rhythm we had - bad Ben Youngs’ mk2

Got a horrible feeling Borthers is going to be the new Robbo

[Hal Jordan]

We'll see how his backrow selections fare.

The outside back selection makes sense in the context of the game plan. Why pick try scorers if the winger's job is to chase high balls, you pick halfway house "back three" players.