What can we expect from the two ref system?

[Muttonbird]

It's become apparent WR are limping their way to a two ref system. That is, an on-field ref with two assistants in his ear, but also a TMO actively involved in reffing the game by camera.

We saw in the ABs v Bokke warm up game the effects of this system:

A game which lasted nearly two hours.
A game slowed down by repeated interjections by ARs and the 2nd ref/TMO.
Theatre by the players asking for the 2nd ref/TMO to get involved.
1st ref not confident in making decisions because 2nd ref/TMO always has more information.
1st ref's authority reduced because of the above and players/coaches will begin to exploit this.
Try celebrations never sure because of impending review by 2nd ref.
Inconsistency with quick 2nd ref/TMO decisions on yellow card/red card decisions.

It's all a mess and is funnelling rugby into a pretty ugly cul de sac, imo.

[average joe]

Whatever it takes to make the game safer.

Actually, for top tier games remove the on-field officials completely and replace them with an anonymous team in a booth somewhere. Perhaps, keep only the linesmen so they can wave their little flags every now and then.

Oh, and give the captains a little white towel. If the team wants to review something he can throw his towel. After three wrong reviews your little towel gets taken away.

[laurent]

Handball uses a 2 ref system for a long time now the game is rather fast however there are no linemen (the pitch is a good bit smaller).

[Muttonbird]

Handball uses a 2 ref system for a long time now the game is rather fast however there are no linemen (the pitch is a good bit smaller).

Hockey also has two onturf umpires/linespeople. Again, much smaller playing area. Similarly complex rules and adjudication.

[Slick]

Wow! It's still hurting.

[Muttonbird]

England 22 - 30 Fiji.

[LoveOfTheGame]

Since when are players not responsible for their actions anymore Muttonbird? And exactly when did we decide to stop applying the laws of our game? Or is it more a when decisions go against us, it does not suit us type of thing?

[JM2K6]

Again, the TMO has been an active part of things for years and their influence has been curtailed in the last year. You're miles behind the times.

[Sandstorm]

Again, the TMO has been an active part of things for years and their influence has been curtailed in the last year. You're miles behind the times.

Exactly. Also, the AB vs Boks game at Twickers was long because of two Kiwi props being injured and taking a total of 11 minutes to eventually get their fat carcasses off the pitch.....plus repeated AB infringements and card checks. The tries that were over-ruled were both correct decisions too.

TMO + Ref interaction worked as it should.

[Slick]

England 22 - 30 Fiji.

That might sting an English person.

A terrible thread all round.

[Lobby]

England 22 - 30 Fiji.

That might sting an English person.

A terrible thread all round.

I can't see why it would. Fiji were much the better team and thoroughly deserved their win. I can't think of any reason why anyone would think England were 'robbed' or why not having a TMO would have made any difference.

Agreed about it being a terrible thread, but as it was started by Muttonmong, that's to be expected.

[Slick]

England 22 - 30 Fiji.

That might sting an English person.

A terrible thread all round.

I can't see why it would. Fiji were much the better team and thoroughly deserved their win. I can't think of any reason why anyone would think England were 'robbed' or why not having a TMO would have made any difference.

Agreed about it being a terrible thread, but as it was started by Muttonmong, that's to be expected.

Oh, I agree, but I think he threw it at me as some kind of insulting masterstroke

[Niegs]

Doesn't League use two refs, one behind each team?

Ice hockey and basketball have three officials in their relatively tiny spaces (two below pros, I think?). I know basketball a bit better (still haven't been deported from Canada yet!), and they work in zones and have clear responsibilities. Typically, they aren't supposed to make calls outside of those parameters, but can have a quick consultation if it was unclear

People who watch more than me - it's been years since I was a regular - may have more to say, but I think rugby could learn from that. Even if kept with one in the middle and two ARs, I'd give the ARs the power to not just recommend but actually make a call. I suppose they do this via the mic, but I think we all know there are a bunch of egoists who ignore OR some are hesitant to interject (or just not paying attention!) to upset the traditional 'ref is all-powerful' dynamic.

[Guy Smiley]

That might sting an English person.

A terrible thread all round.

I can't see why it would. Fiji were much the better team and thoroughly deserved their win. I can't think of any reason why anyone would think England were 'robbed' or why not having a TMO would have made any difference.

Agreed about it being a terrible thread, but as it was started by Muttonmong, that's to be expected.

Oh, I agree, but I think he threw it at me as some kind of insulting masterstroke

[Guy Smiley]

Doesn't League use two refs, one behind each team?

Ice hockey and basketball have three officials in their relatively tiny spaces (two below pros, I think?). I know basketball a bit better (still haven't been deported from Canada yet!), and they work in zones and have clear responsibilities. Typically, they aren't supposed to make calls outside of those parameters, but can have a quick consultation if it was unclear

People who watch more than me - it's been years since I was a regular - may have more to say, but I think rugby could learn from that. Even if kept with one in the middle and two ARs, I'd give the ARs the power to not just recommend but actually make a call. I suppose they do this via the mic, but I think we all know there are a bunch of egoists who ignore OR some are hesitant to interject (or just not paying attention!) to upset the traditional 'ref is all-powerful' dynamic.

I followed AFL for years. To clarify, it's played on a large ground, basically it's a cricket oval and can measure 150m x 130m although the dimensions vary from ground to ground. They use 3 field umpires, two boundary umpires and two goal umpires.

They still get it wrong.

[Muttonbird]

You don't notice incremental change, even rapid incremental change, when you are exposed to it regularly. You just dumbly follow along like most posters have done here.

When you're outside this bizarre slowing down of the game by Euro teams, it's a real shock to see how far the speed of the game has been attacked.

The ABs will really struggle this RWC because their natural free flowing tendencies are blunted by increasingly continuous stoppages, now dictated by slow moving players.

Killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

[OomStruisbaai]

Mutton its normal that one team will try and slow it down and the other team want to speed it up. You get this in all the competitions even in the NPC.

The team thats leading in the second half will try and slow it down, the team chasing wants to speed it up.

Its not a NH thing, its a rugby thing.

[OomStruisbaai]

Lets see tonight when the All Blacks are leading in the second half IF they want to speed it up. Foster will be a real idiot if he allow this.

[Gumboot]

Mutton its normal that one team will try and slow it down and the other team want to speed it up. You get this in all the competitions even in the NPC.

The team thats leading in the second half will try and slow it down, the team chasing wants to speed it up.

Its not a NH thing, its a rugby thing.

It's not a black and white thing, though. There are genuine injury breaks, and then there are refreshing water breaks for bigger, heavier players. And timing is crucial. Rassie taught everyone that. Until it's fixed, this shit will continue to undermine the integrity of the international game.

[JM2K6]

You don't notice incremental change, even rapid incremental change, when you are exposed to it regularly. You just dumbly follow along like most posters have done here.

When you're outside this bizarre slowing down of the game by Euro teams, it's a real shock to see how far the speed of the game has been attacked.

The ABs will really struggle this RWC because their natural free flowing tendencies are blunted by increasingly continuous stoppages, now dictated by slow moving players.

Killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

We noticed this when it actually happened, and the pushback against it caused the change in emphasis to put the TMO back in their box. Which was also noticed. By most people, at any rate.

You were oblivious to all of this, and apparently have watched one game of rugby in three years or something. How on earth you get to "slowing down of the game by Euro teams" because of your sustained crying over New Zealand vs South Africa is beyond me, but that match took forever because a) NZ had loads of injuries, b) NZ kept cheating like fuck, and c) NZ kept having to wait behind their posts for some reason you're avoiding

[OomStruisbaai]

Mutton its normal that one team will try and slow it down and the other team want to speed it up. You get this in all the competitions even in the NPC.

The team thats leading in the second half will try and slow it down, the team chasing wants to speed it up.

Its not a NH thing, its a rugby thing.

It's not a black and white thing, though. There are genuine injury breaks, and then there are refreshing water breaks for bigger, heavier players. And timing is crucial. Rassie taught everyone that. Until it's fixed, this shit will continue to undermine the integrity of the international game.

That also but its obvious that the team leading in the last quarter will slow it down for obvious reason. Vok you get it in any sport be it field hockey, soccer, netball, ext.