RWCR1 England vs Argentina

[_Os_]

Can't get over just how bad Argentina were. Absolute piss. Are we massively overrating the Rugby Championship or something?

I guess it depends on who "we" is. The All Blacks match and Wallabies match went about how I thought they would. Pumas were way off where I thought they were. For me it could just be that I really underestimated England.

But generally it's been the case for awhile that everyone just disregards 6N success. When the Boks beat Wales in the 2019 semi, Wales were grand slam 6N champions that year, but it seemed to be totally ignored as any type of achievement and instead the general vibe was the Boks are expected to beat Wales. England beating the ABs got a much larger profile, but the ABs weren't RC champions that year and weren't even second place. The build up to that final in the NH media put beating a third placed RC side above beating 6N grand slam champs.

Didn't NZ essentially throw the RC that year? And they had comfortably beaten SA in the group stages and were cruising until they met England, who produced a phenomenal display to dethrone them; on the other hand, both SA and Wales had been poor during the tournament and produced an eye bleedingly awful display of anti rugby in the semi final. It's not really a surprise one performance got rated above the other.

Not sure how you arrived at Wales being poor that RWC, they slammed their group (which had Wales/Wallabies/Fiji/Georgia, World Rugby need to ensure pools cannot repeat themselves at the next RWC), then beat France in the quarters. Boks lost by 10 to the ABs (but did go over the line against them), then beat every team they played by 20 or more, other than Wales.

As for how the Boks beat Wales, the Boks found a way no one else did and managed to con Jones into thinking the Boks would play that way in the final too. As we've seen in this match, winning through penalties and drop goals is still winning. If it's repeatable then it doesn't matter how it's done.

It's a solid example of the RC being rated above the 6N for not much reason as you'll see, and it was NH media doing it. SA media tends to just rate whoever has beaten the Boks, sometimes that's NH sides, Wales ended up being rated more in SA than in the NH media that RWC because they had beaten the Boks in the previous 4 matches going into that semi.

[OomStruisbaai]

After last night England have a nice draw to get into the semi final.

It was an important test last night and they got it with flying colors. Argentina was sloppy, making primary Scholls mistake and look like not coached at all.

[Torquemada 1420]

Has Lord Bald had a stroke?
Mates there didn’t get their seats until 10 mins after ko: disgraceful.

I thought this aspect might be a problem. It wasn't great in the warm up v Aus. You got checked outside the gates......... and then, the same checks again once you'd presented your ticket. I guess it provided employment. Some of it was ridiculous pedantry: a friend was stopped for a few minutes whilst a security guy hassled him over the sandwich in his bag Meantime, I simply sidestepped the 2nd security check as they were distracted by the offending sandwich! Knowing this issue at Paris repeatedly, we were there more than an hour before KO.

Mind you, Marseille wasn't anywhere near as bad in November. I think we only got there 30 mins before KO and got in with no delays.

[Torquemada 1420]

In fairness there aren't many sides struggling for a win that would produce an all court game while down to 14 for 77 minutes. Argentina have no such excuse - England actually had a plan to score points and kept doing good things, so it's weird that they're the ones getting the bulk of the criticism. Aim your ire at the incredibly shithouse and comically useless Argies.

Like I said, the game was akin to a killer B movie. Where Eng did what they could with their limited but earnest acting abilities whereas Arg as the production team and film crew were comically bad.

The inability to play against 14 men is a regular hobby horse of mine which I pay much attention to, but I am struggling to think of a more inept display ever. Certainly at intl level given
a) The length of time with the man adv.
b) The heat conditions which should have increased that advantage.
c) The disparity on paper of form between the 2 sides.
d) The fact that Eng have rarely looked like scoring a try with 15 men recently and so the only possible way they could advance was in 3s....... so the 15 really only needed to show some discipline. Instead, I think they coughed up something like a 1/4 of a century of turnovers and penalties.

[Slick]

Has Lord Bald had a stroke?
Mates there didn’t get their seats until 10 mins after ko: disgraceful.

I thought this aspect might be a problem. It wasn't great in the warm up v Aus. You got checked outside the gates......... and then, the same checks again once you'd presented your ticket. I guess it provided employment. Some of it was ridiculous pedantry: a friend was stopped for a few minutes whilst a security guy hassled him over the sandwich in his bag Meantime, I simply sidestepped the 2nd security check as they were distracted by the offending sandwich! Knowing this issue at Paris repeatedly, we were there more than an hour before KO.

Mind you, Marseille wasn't anywhere near as bad in November. I think we only got there 30 mins before KO and got in with no delays.

Were you there last night Torq?

I’ve heard from a few neutrals who were there that were just really deflated by the whole experience. From the organisation to rude, boorish behaviour by both sets of supporters and a fairly awful game

[Slick]

In fairness there aren't many sides struggling for a win that would produce an all court game while down to 14 for 77 minutes. Argentina have no such excuse - England actually had a plan to score points and kept doing good things, so it's weird that they're the ones getting the bulk of the criticism. Aim your ire at the incredibly shithouse and comically useless Argies.

To be honest, and certainly on my behalf, I think that’s more from not wanting to take anything away from England getting a much needed and hard fought win. Argentina were fucking pathetic.

[Ymx]

I missed the game. But watched the score board. England must have had to dig deep after losing Curry for the entire match, and to stay on top like that. Impressive and gutsy resilience.

Was the curry card referred to and confirmed by the bunker or a straight red on the field?

[Oxbow]

I missed the game. But watched the score board. England must have had to dig deep after losing Curry for the entire match, and to stay on top like that. Impressive and gutsy resilience.

Was the curry card referred to and confirmed by the bunker or a straight red on the field?

Bunker.

[dkm57]

For me the highlight of the game was the return of the drop goal, anything is better than the boring slug fest of fatties trying to cross the line from 6 inches for 80 minutes. Well done Ford, hopefully this will give Borthwick the idea that maybe dropping Farrell permanently could be a good thing.

[Slick]

For me the highlight of the game was the return of the drop goal, anything is better than the boring slug fest of fatties trying to cross the line from 6 inches for 80 minutes. Well done Ford, hopefully this will give Borthwick the idea that maybe dropping Farrell permanently could be a good thing.

England couldn’t get that close to the line

[SaintK]

For me the highlight of the game was the return of the drop goal, anything is better than the boring slug fest of fatties trying to cross the line from 6 inches for 80 minutes. Well done Ford, hopefully this will give Borthwick the idea that maybe dropping Farrell permanently could be a good thing.

England couldn’t get that close to the line

That’ll come
Where we’re coming from that’s a start

[Slick]

For me the highlight of the game was the return of the drop goal, anything is better than the boring slug fest of fatties trying to cross the line from 6 inches for 80 minutes. Well done Ford, hopefully this will give Borthwick the idea that maybe dropping Farrell permanently could be a good thing.

England couldn’t get that close to the line

That’ll come
Where we’re coming from that’s a start

It may well. I’ve been praising England for the win, it was genuinely great to see them put in a really gutsy performance and, at least in attitude, look like they meant it. Doesn’t take away from the fact it was the most inept attacking performance I think I’ve ever seen at this level

[Torquemada 1420]

Has Lord Bald had a stroke?
Mates there didn’t get their seats until 10 mins after ko: disgraceful.

I thought this aspect might be a problem. It wasn't great in the warm up v Aus. You got checked outside the gates......... and then, the same checks again once you'd presented your ticket. I guess it provided employment. Some of it was ridiculous pedantry: a friend was stopped for a few minutes whilst a security guy hassled him over the sandwich in his bag Meantime, I simply sidestepped the 2nd security check as they were distracted by the offending sandwich! Knowing this issue at Paris repeatedly, we were there more than an hour before KO.

Mind you, Marseille wasn't anywhere near as bad in November. I think we only got there 30 mins before KO and got in with no delays.

Were you there last night Torq?

I’ve heard from a few neutrals who were there that were just really deflated by the whole experience. From the organisation to rude, boorish behaviour by both sets of supporters and a fairly awful game

No. I've been unable to get any tickets this time around. Last time I had tickets to every Fra game. Changing times: all about the corporate money now and screw the real fans.

Sadly, policing and hired security in Fra remains a miserable experience for the public. It's your stereotypical fascists given a uniform and licence to abuse scenario (funnily my experience of the army on the streets has always been fine). As far back as 2006 (v ABs in Lyon), our group was detained and given a tough time by the Gendarmerie: particularly since one of our group was Corsican.

Re: last night. Well I guess Eng and Arg have bad blood between them anyway so no surprise there. There were some shots of Eng fans' behaviour during the game and I commented to the wife what a dislikable bunch of c**ts they seemed.

{EDIT} Plenty of boorish stuff on FB along the lines of sending the Argies home again.

[Torquemada 1420]

Are we massively overrating the Rugby Championship or something?

I'm looking forward to the SA v Sco game for that reason. I think we'll get some sort of answer then.

[Biffer]

On the Curry red card,the key thing is that the Argentinian was tackled by two players in that incident, Curry and Daly. Daly watches the player in the air, bends his hips and makes a solid tackle around the ribs. Curry charges in upright and causes the head contact. So if anyone says to you it was unavoidable, get them to explain how Daly is some kind of time shifting magician, because if he could do it, so could Curry. It was a choice and it was his fault.

[dpedin]

England deserved winners of a poor game. England suffocated the Argies, fast line defence in midfield stopped the Argies going wide to their danger men and they disrupted the ball well at the breakdown. Argies played into their hands by playing slow ponderous rugby and tried to bully them up front, it didn't work.Sloppy handling and too many penalties meant they just kept giving the ball back to England who punted it back into their 22. Mitchell was the main difference for me, he moved the ball about quickly and made room for Ford to kick his kicks. Mitchell was quick to the breakdown, quick to move the ball and picked out his runners well. He also had a few snipes around the breakdown to keep Argies defence on their toes. He kept them thinking all game and made sure England were served with go forward ball. Mitchell made the space for Ford who had an armchair ride all night and he did the business.

However I am not sure that England will win many games against better opponents without scoring any tries? Their back play is still fairly mundane, at one point they had a 2 man overlap out on the right wing but poor passing and the winger (May?) over running the ball meant they butchered the chance. Ford will control a game but with Tuliagi and Merchant outside him I am not sure the back 3 are going to see much ball in attack. I don't think England looked like scoring a try all game to be honest. A confidence booster.

[dpedin]

On the Curry red card,the key thing is that the Argentinian was tackled by two players in that incident, Curry and Daly. Daly watches the player in the air, bends his hips and makes a solid tackle around the ribs. Curry charges in upright and causes the head contact. So if anyone says to you it was unavoidable, get them to explain how Daly is some kind of time shifting magician, because if he could do it, so could Curry. It was a choice and it was his fault.

This. Curry probably didnt mean to hurt the guy, nor himself, but poor technique and brain fart caused a reckless and dangerous tackle with no mitigation. Them's the rules!

[Slick]

On the Curry red card,the key thing is that the Argentinian was tackled by two players in that incident, Curry and Daly. Daly watches the player in the air, bends his hips and makes a solid tackle around the ribs. Curry charges in upright and causes the head contact. So if anyone says to you it was unavoidable, get them to explain how Daly is some kind of time shifting magician, because if he could do it, so could Curry. It was a choice and it was his fault.

This. Curry probably didnt mean to hurt the guy, nor himself, but poor technique and brain fart caused a reckless and dangerous tackle with no mitigation. Them's the rules!

I like all the comments on social media about it not being red because it wasn’t reckless. Did anyone see Curry’s smashed face?

[Ymx]

Can't get over just how bad Argentina were. Absolute piss. Are we massively overrating the Rugby Championship or something?

I guess it depends on who "we" is. The All Blacks match and Wallabies match went about how I thought they would. Pumas were way off where I thought they were. For me it could just be that I really underestimated England.

But generally it's been the case for awhile that everyone just disregards 6N success. When the Boks beat Wales in the 2019 semi, Wales were grand slam 6N champions that year, but it seemed to be totally ignored as any type of achievement and instead the general vibe was the Boks are expected to beat Wales. England beating the ABs got a much larger profile, but the ABs weren't RC champions that year and weren't even second place. The build up to that final in the NH media put beating a third placed RC side above beating 6N grand slam champs.

Didn't NZ essentially throw the RC that year? And they had comfortably beaten SA in the group stages and were cruising until they met England, who produced a phenomenal display to dethrone them; on the other hand, both SA and Wales had been poor during the tournament and produced an eye bleedingly awful display of anti rugby in the semi final. It's not really a surprise one performance got rated above the other.

Listen to you now.

[JM2K6]

I guess it depends on who "we" is. The All Blacks match and Wallabies match went about how I thought they would. Pumas were way off where I thought they were. For me it could just be that I really underestimated England.

But generally it's been the case for awhile that everyone just disregards 6N success. When the Boks beat Wales in the 2019 semi, Wales were grand slam 6N champions that year, but it seemed to be totally ignored as any type of achievement and instead the general vibe was the Boks are expected to beat Wales. England beating the ABs got a much larger profile, but the ABs weren't RC champions that year and weren't even second place. The build up to that final in the NH media put beating a third placed RC side above beating 6N grand slam champs.

Didn't NZ essentially throw the RC that year? And they had comfortably beaten SA in the group stages and were cruising until they met England, who produced a phenomenal display to dethrone them; on the other hand, both SA and Wales had been poor during the tournament and produced an eye bleedingly awful display of anti rugby in the semi final. It's not really a surprise one performance got rated above the other.

Listen to you now.

What does that mean? We're talking about four years ago, not now.

[Ymx]

This comment was not about 4 years ago too.

Are we massively overrating the Rugby Championship or something?

[OomStruisbaai]

Are we massively overrating the Rugby Championship or something?

I'm looking forward to the SA v Sco game for that reason. I think we'll get some sort of answer then.

You are comparing two URC countries now?

[Paddington Bear]

Do we think these drop goals were a premeditated tactic?

I don’t. I just don’t think Ford could quite believe the shiteness of what was going on around him and made the decision

Disagree with this given the fact the first two were from so far out. Glad we’ve returned to this

[Slick]

Do we think these drop goals were a premeditated tactic?

I don’t. I just don’t think Ford could quite believe the shiteness of what was going on around him and made the decision

Disagree with this given the fact the first two were from so far out. Glad we’ve returned to this

I just find it hard to believe that the tactics were kick it up in the air, but if you are close enough do a drop goal. Pretty sad if it was

[Simian]

I don’t. I just don’t think Ford could quite believe the shiteness of what was going on around him and made the decision

Disagree with this given the fact the first two were from so far out. Glad we’ve returned to this

I just find it hard to believe that the tactics were kick it up in the air, but if you are close enough do a drop goal. Pretty sad if it was

Given the repeated pregame statements by SCw and Dallaglio that England would have to show something different and surprise the Argentinians, I’m pretty certain it was preplanned.

Regardless, why is it sad tho? They comfortably won a game most folk expected them to lose.

[C69]

I don’t. I just don’t think Ford could quite believe the shiteness of what was going on around him and made the decision

Disagree with this given the fact the first two were from so far out. Glad we’ve returned to this

I just find it hard to believe that the tactics were kick it up in the air, but if you are close enough do a drop goal. Pretty sad if it was

It looks like England have found a way to win.
It may be turgid and boring but it plays to their strengths and is effective.

I suspect Wales will play Gatland ball again which will not be great to watch but if it gets results then I too will be happy.
England need to be applauded for forcing so many Argie errors.
Plain sailing now for the top spot of the group.

[JM2K6]

This comment was not about 4 years ago too.

Are we massively overrating the Rugby Championship or something?

Not what you quoted though was it.

And yeah, Argentina were absolute dogshit and they've been a strong part of the RC in the last few years. With NZ falling flat on their faces recently and Australia looking lucky that Georgia butchered so many chances, I don't think it's an unreasonable question. But you do you I guess.

[JM2K6]

I don’t. I just don’t think Ford could quite believe the shiteness of what was going on around him and made the decision

Disagree with this given the fact the first two were from so far out. Glad we’ve returned to this

I just find it hard to believe that the tactics were kick it up in the air, but if you are close enough do a drop goal. Pretty sad if it was

No, the tactics were kick it up in the air and then try and score tries if we get good position as a result but with an early sending off, Ford saw opportunities and took them.

In that sort of game you just try to find a way to win. I appreciate that the coverage of the game must have been aggravating, because it was made to sound like a classic display, but the context does matter and in context it was an excellent performance.

[Ymx]

This comment was not about 4 years ago too.

Are we massively overrating the Rugby Championship or something?

Not what you quoted though was it.

And yeah, Argentina were absolute dogshit and they've been a strong part of the RC in the last few years. With NZ falling flat on their faces recently and Australia looking lucky that Georgia butchered so many chances, I don't think it's an unreasonable question. But you do you I guess.

It was indeed the primary post which was quoted by me. The inner most prominent quoted post.

Hang on… Is this one of those posts where you are joking? Most of your posts are allegedly done tongue in cheek, as you told us/me.

[Paddington Bear]

I don’t. I just don’t think Ford could quite believe the shiteness of what was going on around him and made the decision

Disagree with this given the fact the first two were from so far out. Glad we’ve returned to this

I just find it hard to believe that the tactics were kick it up in the air, but if you are close enough do a drop goal. Pretty sad if it was

The ‘kick it up in the air’ element is nothing new from England or more particularly Steve Borthwick, I think there’d definitely been a discussion along the lines of ‘what do we do if we’re not making progress?’ and the answer to that was drop goals. And, hell, it worked. Despite playing 77 minutes with 14 men there was only ever one team in the contest, and the dgs absolutely rattled Argentina

[Slick]

Disagree with this given the fact the first two were from so far out. Glad we’ve returned to this

I just find it hard to believe that the tactics were kick it up in the air, but if you are close enough do a drop goal. Pretty sad if it was

No, the tactics were kick it up in the air and then try and score tries if we get good position as a result but with an early sending off, Ford saw opportunities and took them.

In that sort of game you just try to find a way to win. I appreciate that the coverage of the game must have been aggravating, because it was made to sound like a classic display, but the context does matter and in context it was an excellent performance.

I 100% agree with this. I’m not buying the nonsense on TV and I absolutely appreciate it was a “just win” situation and I can’t be anymore effusive in my praise for that than I have been.

I can also justifiably say it was the worst attacking performance I’ve probably ever seen and, as well as the card, probably had a lot of bearing on Ford, who was brilliant, deciding to go for it.

I don’t think the tactic at the start of the game was to try and knock over a drop goal at any opportunity, that’s just too horrible to consider

[Slick]

Disagree with this given the fact the first two were from so far out. Glad we’ve returned to this

I just find it hard to believe that the tactics were kick it up in the air, but if you are close enough do a drop goal. Pretty sad if it was

The ‘kick it up in the air’ element is nothing new from England or more particularly Steve Borthwick, I think there’d definitely been a discussion along the lines of ‘what do we do if we’re not making progress?’ and the answer to that was drop goals. And, hell, it worked. Despite playing 77 minutes with 14 men there was only ever one team in the contest, and the dgs absolutely rattled Argentina

That’s where I differ. I just don’t want to think a coach tells his team that if his well thought out (whatever) strategy isn’t working then just take some pot shots

[Paddington Bear]

I just find it hard to believe that the tactics were kick it up in the air, but if you are close enough do a drop goal. Pretty sad if it was

The ‘kick it up in the air’ element is nothing new from England or more particularly Steve Borthwick, I think there’d definitely been a discussion along the lines of ‘what do we do if we’re not making progress?’ and the answer to that was drop goals. And, hell, it worked. Despite playing 77 minutes with 14 men there was only ever one team in the contest, and the dgs absolutely rattled Argentina

That’s where I differ. I just don’t want to think a coach tells his team that if his well thought out (whatever) strategy isn’t working then just take some pot shots

You’re more positive than I am!

England look unlikely to score a try against tier 1 opposition barring a driving maul/interception, so Ford needs to make the best of the situation. Fwiw the best English teams have always had drop goals in the locker, and I know a lot of the ‘03 crop* feel that Jonny’s drop goals opened up the game later as sides had to chase the game against us.
Hopefully now with the draw opened up a little we’ll see a bit more in the next few games, but I just don’t see how we’re trying to run a backline beyond kicking.



*yes we’ve won one game, it’s time to start relentlessly referencing 2003, it’s happening

[Kiwias]

This thread

Great to see you around, Lady P.

[JM2K6]

This comment was not about 4 years ago too.

Not what you quoted though was it.

And yeah, Argentina were absolute dogshit and they've been a strong part of the RC in the last few years. With NZ falling flat on their faces recently and Australia looking lucky that Georgia butchered so many chances, I don't think it's an unreasonable question. But you do you I guess.

It was indeed the primary post which was quoted by me. The inner most prominent quoted post.

Hang on… Is this one of those posts where you are joking? Most of your posts are allegedly done tongue in cheek, as you told us/me.

Fuck this is dull. I can't be arsed so fill your boots with whatever gripes you wish to take from my post. Knock yourself out.

[Simian]

I just find it hard to believe that the tactics were kick it up in the air, but if you are close enough do a drop goal. Pretty sad if it was

No, the tactics were kick it up in the air and then try and score tries if we get good position as a result but with an early sending off, Ford saw opportunities and took them.

In that sort of game you just try to find a way to win. I appreciate that the coverage of the game must have been aggravating, because it was made to sound like a classic display, but the context does matter and in context it was an excellent performance.

I 100% agree with this. I’m not buying the nonsense on TV and I absolutely appreciate it was a “just win” situation and I can’t be anymore effusive in my praise for that than I have been.

I can also justifiably say it was the worst attacking performance I’ve probably ever seen and, as well as the card, probably had a lot of bearing on Ford, who was brilliant, deciding to go for it.

I don’t think the tactic at the start of the game was to try and knock over a drop goal at any opportunity, that’s just too horrible to consider

I don't think it was even the worst attacking performance in that match!

[Ymx]

JM - You honestly give the amazing impression of someone always snidey and angry.

Well played sir.

[BnM]

The ‘kick it up in the air’ element is nothing new from England or more particularly Steve Borthwick, I think there’d definitely been a discussion along the lines of ‘what do we do if we’re not making progress?’ and the answer to that was drop goals. And, hell, it worked. Despite playing 77 minutes with 14 men there was only ever one team in the contest, and the dgs absolutely rattled Argentina

I was thinking this last night early on in the game when it was getting kicked the first 2 times we had the ball, kicking games with Borthwick and Johnson in charge were familiar and disappointing, remember that near loss at home to Italy, and the game where we just kicked it to huge SA allowing them to just run it back all over us. We barely got a sniff of the try line, that wasn't a good tactical game, we got lucky Ford played a blinder and Argentina couldn't stop giving us penalties.

[Torquemada 1420]

England suffocated the Argies, fast line defence in midfield stopped the Argies going wide

More down to the dreadful Arg SH managing every breakdown on an eggtimer. His fwds didn't help with their pea-heart carries into contact. I lost track how many times their ball carrier went to ground in the wrong position and/or his support players arrived in time for next week's game.

[JM2K6]

JM - You honestly give the amazing impression of someone always snidey and angry.

Well played sir.

What on earth was the purpose of your original post if not to be snide? Maybe just don't be a twat to people if you are going to get sniffy if they respond accordingly?