Jersey Gone??

[Margin__Walker]

Win the Championship last season. Into Administration for the start of this season. English rugby is the gift that keeps giving off the pitch.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... eason.html

Edit:

Now confirmed by the club that they ceased trading yesterday

https://www.jerseyreds.je/news_article/ ... g-trading/

[PornDog]

Fuck sake, that's awful. Is there an end in sight for this shit or are more clubs in danger?

[sockwithaticket]

Really shitty news. A lot of Prem players have done time in Jersey on their way up and some travel the other way too. They've been a staple of the Championship for as long as I've been following pro rugby.

Fuck sake, that's awful. Is there an end in sight for this shit or are more clubs in danger?

The collapse of professional rugby in England I guess.

[Margin__Walker]

Jersey's model did always seem fairly investor reliant (fairly ambitious, with a small fan base), living beyond their means propped up by investment. Most clubs are to some degree though, so there will always be others in danger.

Ultimately Investors probably need some sort of firm communication from the RFU/PRL as to what the structure will be under the new Professional Game Agreement from next year. Long term though driving enough commercial revenue to support enough teams, given the limited interest in club rugby is a huge challenge.

[inactionman]

Awful.

A few colleagues of mine live out there, and know a few people impacted by this.

I recall the Jersey Reds (the pro side) split from Jersey Rugby last year, maybe lost a few benefactors or over-reached?

Whatever, it's a dreadful situation, and seems to have happened very suddenly.

[geordie_6]

Wonder if they reach out to someone like Henry Cavill? From Jersey, noted follower of the Reds, probably has a few quid spare as you can only buy so many Warhammer figures!

[Margin__Walker]

Wonder if they reach out to someone like Henry Cavill? From Jersey, noted follower of the Reds, probably has a few quid spare as you can only buy so many Warhammer figures!

I'm guessing to get to this point, they've probably been looking far and near for anyone with a passing interest and a few quid, with no success.

[SaintK]

Jersey's model did always seem fairly investor reliant (fairly ambitious, with a small fan base), living beyond their means propped up by investment. Most clubs are to some degree though, so there will always be others in danger.

Ultimately Investors probably need some sort of firm communication from the RFU/PRL as to what the structure will be under the new Professional Game Agreement from next year. Long term though driving enough commercial revenue to support enough teams, given the limited interest in club rugby is a huge challenge.

Living beyond their means and no confirmed Championship funding increase from RFU
Shame. They played good rugby.

[Paddington Bear]

Big surprise and a massive shame, always enjoy watching games there when visiting Mrs PB’s family.

There’s various elements of surprise there, not least that on a wealthy island with something of a captive market they’ve been unable to drum up investment. Crowds have always been decent as well by Championship standard

They’ve incubated a lot of pretty decent players and given plenty of rugby fans a good weekend away. The domestic league on the island folded a few years back, so with the pros gone there is now just ‘Athletic’ (the amateurs) and a social club that plays touring teams left. A situation that isn’t great for an island that struggles to attract and retain young people as it is.

[dpedin]

This is really sad news for everyone concerned most of all those losing their livelihood.

I honestly do wonder what the RFU are doing at the moment presiding over the slow inexorable melt down of English rugby.Do they have a strategy in place to sustain pro rugby in England and if so what is it? Their inaction over all these club failures must be damaging rugby in England.

I used to have BT Sport for £10 pm to watch EPL but TNT took it over and wanted £30pm so I could watch a smaller league with a number of top players now playing in France - I decided not to bother, it isn't worth it to be honest. I will stick to watching URC and French rugby, assuming Viaplay or whatever it is called now continues to operate for £100 pa.

[SaintK]

I honestly do wonder what the RFU are doing at the moment presiding over the slow inexorable melt down of English rugby.Do they have a strategy in place to sustain pro rugby in England and if so what is it? Their inaction over all these club failures must be damaging rugby in England.

They appear to have no strategy for anything below Premiership level
There is now a bunker mentality at the top of the RFU and deafeningsilence from Sweeney and Ilube who along with CFO Sue Day appear to be running the RFU without any checks and balances. To the point where no fewer than 30 RFU council members have written a letter complaing of being kept in the dark on major decisions being made.
If rumours are true the RFU board are finalising details of a 7 year deal with PR:L to the tune of up to £200m (reportedly). This will be to the detriment of all rugby below the Premiership.
Fuck them all!

[Slick]

The whole thing is going to implode. Not just England.

I really worry for Scottish rugby once we inevitably slide back down the wave we are riding at the moment. It wasn't long ago that Murrayfield struggled to sell out many games and ticket prices have pretty much doubled in 5 years. A couple of poor 6N and we are fucked I would think.

[Paddington Bear]

The whole thing is going to implode. Not just England.

I really worry for Scottish rugby once we inevitably slide back down the wave we are riding at the moment. It wasn't long ago that Murrayfield struggled to sell out many games and ticket prices have pretty much doubled in 5 years. A couple of poor 6N and we are fucked I would think.

Simple truth is that British rugby lives well beyond its means because it believes the hype that big crowds a few times a year for the 6N generates.
I despair whenever I listen to a podcast and current/ex players keep talking about Premier League/NFL models, as they genuinely seem to believe they’re in the same bracket and ignore their real colleagues are county cricketers, Super League and League One footballers.

Incidentally I’ve just booked tickets for me and my parents to go to the 6N game in Rome, the tickets combined being substantially less than one ticket to Twickenham.
It’s totally unsustainable and whilst Ireland may be in better shape than the rest of us, this is IMO deeply predicated on them carrying on winning.

Combined with the grassroots issues that are well documented, I’m not sure what state the sport will be in in a few years time.

[Biffer]

The whole thing is going to implode. Not just England.

I really worry for Scottish rugby once we inevitably slide back down the wave we are riding at the moment. It wasn't long ago that Murrayfield struggled to sell out many games and ticket prices have pretty much doubled in 5 years. A couple of poor 6N and we are fucked I would think.

Simple truth is that British rugby lives well beyond its means because it believes the hype that big crowds a few times a year for the 6N generates.
I despair whenever I listen to a podcast and current/ex players keep talking about Premier League/NFL models, as they genuinely seem to believe they’re in the same bracket and ignore their real colleagues are county cricketers, Super League and League One footballers.

Incidentally I’ve just booked tickets for me and my parents to go to the 6N game in Rome, the tickets combined being substantially less than one ticket to Twickenham.
It’s totally unsustainable and whilst Ireland may be in better shape than the rest of us, this is IMO deeply predicated on them carrying on winning.

Combined with the grassroots issues that are well documented, I’m not sure what state the sport will be in in a few years time.

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

[Slick]

The whole thing is going to implode. Not just England.

I really worry for Scottish rugby once we inevitably slide back down the wave we are riding at the moment. It wasn't long ago that Murrayfield struggled to sell out many games and ticket prices have pretty much doubled in 5 years. A couple of poor 6N and we are fucked I would think.

Simple truth is that British rugby lives well beyond its means because it believes the hype that big crowds a few times a year for the 6N generates.
I despair whenever I listen to a podcast and current/ex players keep talking about Premier League/NFL models, as they genuinely seem to believe they’re in the same bracket and ignore their real colleagues are county cricketers, Super League and League One footballers.

Incidentally I’ve just booked tickets for me and my parents to go to the 6N game in Rome, the tickets combined being substantially less than one ticket to Twickenham.
It’s totally unsustainable and whilst Ireland may be in better shape than the rest of us, this is IMO deeply predicated on them carrying on winning.

Combined with the grassroots issues that are well documented, I’m not sure what state the sport will be in in a few years time.

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

Whilst that is true, we are also in a bit of a golden era in terms of players, style and beating England, I really do worry what happens in a couple of years when we are struggling again.

[Paddington Bear]

The whole thing is going to implode. Not just England.

I really worry for Scottish rugby once we inevitably slide back down the wave we are riding at the moment. It wasn't long ago that Murrayfield struggled to sell out many games and ticket prices have pretty much doubled in 5 years. A couple of poor 6N and we are fucked I would think.

Simple truth is that British rugby lives well beyond its means because it believes the hype that big crowds a few times a year for the 6N generates.
I despair whenever I listen to a podcast and current/ex players keep talking about Premier League/NFL models, as they genuinely seem to believe they’re in the same bracket and ignore their real colleagues are county cricketers, Super League and League One footballers.

Incidentally I’ve just booked tickets for me and my parents to go to the 6N game in Rome, the tickets combined being substantially less than one ticket to Twickenham.
It’s totally unsustainable and whilst Ireland may be in better shape than the rest of us, this is IMO deeply predicated on them carrying on winning.

Combined with the grassroots issues that are well documented, I’m not sure what state the sport will be in in a few years time.

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

As Slick says, all predicated on selling out Murrayfield which historically is not guaranteed

[fishfoodie]

Simple truth is that British rugby lives well beyond its means because it believes the hype that big crowds a few times a year for the 6N generates.
I despair whenever I listen to a podcast and current/ex players keep talking about Premier League/NFL models, as they genuinely seem to believe they’re in the same bracket and ignore their real colleagues are county cricketers, Super League and League One footballers.

Incidentally I’ve just booked tickets for me and my parents to go to the 6N game in Rome, the tickets combined being substantially less than one ticket to Twickenham.
It’s totally unsustainable and whilst Ireland may be in better shape than the rest of us, this is IMO deeply predicated on them carrying on winning.

Combined with the grassroots issues that are well documented, I’m not sure what state the sport will be in in a few years time.

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

As Slick says, all predicated on selling out Murrayfield which historically is not guaranteed

Well the clubs can do their bit too, by playing a decent brand of rugby, & getting bums on seats themselves, & so not being completely dependent on the Union. The difference between the development of the Scottish sides, versus the Welsh is pretty bloody stark there !

[dpedin]

Simple truth is that British rugby lives well beyond its means because it believes the hype that big crowds a few times a year for the 6N generates.
I despair whenever I listen to a podcast and current/ex players keep talking about Premier League/NFL models, as they genuinely seem to believe they’re in the same bracket and ignore their real colleagues are county cricketers, Super League and League One footballers.

Incidentally I’ve just booked tickets for me and my parents to go to the 6N game in Rome, the tickets combined being substantially less than one ticket to Twickenham.
It’s totally unsustainable and whilst Ireland may be in better shape than the rest of us, this is IMO deeply predicated on them carrying on winning.

Combined with the grassroots issues that are well documented, I’m not sure what state the sport will be in in a few years time.

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

As Slick says, all predicated on selling out Murrayfield which historically is not guaranteed

I am not sure the SRU financial future is predicated in selling out 6Ns games, that wouldn't be accepted in any budget setting exercise. It will have some pretty stretching revenue targets which, as they all do, will have some flexibility in them. As said earlier the SRU did get themselves into a difficult situation some years ago with debt due to rebuild of Murrayfield and trying to run a 3rd team plus low income streams from TV, merchandising, etc. but they have turned it around, got a pretty good handle on costs, generating more revenue through better use of Murrayfield and are living within their means. The model is sustainable going forward and costs can be trimmed if we find poor team performance hits revenues - its why both pro teams work with the contracts lengths etc. I am fairly conformable with where Scottish rugby is at the moment and the URC seems to be growing in quality and coverage.

I suspect England got caught on the wave of dodgy private money from dodgy sources and once covid hit these dried up and the remaining model is in itself not sustaining. Somehow the SRU need to get a grip of the situation and develop a new strategy looking at league structures, funding, club and international demands, etc with the clubs across all the pyramid otherwise the higher you climb the further you have to fall!

[laurent]

time For the french to reclaim the island

Seriously English Pro rugby needs an overhaul.

Not sure were they should start though.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

As Slick says, all predicated on selling out Murrayfield which historically is not guaranteed

I am not sure the SRU financial future is predicated in selling out 6Ns games

That and the waters not rising in the face of climate change

I don't mind some of the chaos in English rugby, teams spending beyond their means suffering is what should happen

[robmatic]

Simple truth is that British rugby lives well beyond its means because it believes the hype that big crowds a few times a year for the 6N generates.
I despair whenever I listen to a podcast and current/ex players keep talking about Premier League/NFL models, as they genuinely seem to believe they’re in the same bracket and ignore their real colleagues are county cricketers, Super League and League One footballers.

Incidentally I’ve just booked tickets for me and my parents to go to the 6N game in Rome, the tickets combined being substantially less than one ticket to Twickenham.
It’s totally unsustainable and whilst Ireland may be in better shape than the rest of us, this is IMO deeply predicated on them carrying on winning.

Combined with the grassroots issues that are well documented, I’m not sure what state the sport will be in in a few years time.

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

As Slick says, all predicated on selling out Murrayfield which historically is not guaranteed

I doubt that the Scottish pro teams are sustainable yet, but they must be a lot closer to it than they were a decade ago. During most of the time that I had a season ticket at Edinburgh (2006-2013), they were doing well to get 3,000 punters in and now they are filling the new stadium fairly consistently. They even have a TV deal these days.

[sockwithaticket]

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

As Slick says, all predicated on selling out Murrayfield which historically is not guaranteed

I doubt that the Scottish pro teams are sustainable yet, but they must be a lot closer to it than they were a decade ago. During most of the time that I had a season ticket at Edinburgh (2006-2013), they were doing well to get 3,000 punters in and now they are filling the new stadium fairly consistently. They even have a TV deal these days.

Leicester get the best crowds in England and were among the best even when really struggling on the pitch. They're still in a financially precarious position. Gate receipts aren't nothing, but they're not that much either.

[Paddington Bear]

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

As Slick says, all predicated on selling out Murrayfield which historically is not guaranteed

I doubt that the Scottish pro teams are sustainable yet, but they must be a lot closer to it than they were a decade ago. During most of the time that I had a season ticket at Edinburgh (2006-2013), they were doing well to get 3,000 punters in and now they are filling the new stadium fairly consistently. They even have a TV deal these days.

Yes I saw Sarries play Glasgow at Hughenden and Firhill, the improvement is significant. With that said playing attractive rugby and attracting larger crowds than the Scottish sides hasn’t saved English teams that have gone to the wall, because the sport is not living within its means

[Dinsdale Piranha]

time For the french to reclaim the island

Seriously English Pro rugby needs an overhaul.

Not sure were they should start though.

1) PRL should start living within their means - as a league, not individual clubs. Too many sugar daddy owners who are interested in the success of their club and don't care if it's at the expense of the survival of the sport and too many coaches/players who consider cheating a badge of honour.

2) Sort some shit out over international windows with the RFU. I get REALLY hacked off when the top players from my club aren't available for over 1/3 of the season when away with England, particularly when England are playing such dire rugby. I like watching Marcus Smith play rugby. Last season I mostly didn't as he wasn't playing for Quins and he also mostly wasn't playing for England.

3) Play more entertaining rugby. Remember who you are competing with. It's not the other clubs, it's all other calls on people's time and money.

4) Invest in grassroots rugby. There's an inexorable decline in numbers but at least try to slow it down a bit.

I've said this before but if you want examples of how to grow a sport, look at the major US sports. They market the sport, not the clubs. Merchandise and most sponsorship is centralised to the league and sold as a package and they take steps to keep the product competitive - salary cap that's enforced, the draft etc. The owners gave up a huge amount of control some decades ago for the good of the sport. You might notice that it has worked.

<EDIT>
I had a 24% increase in my season ticket price for 3 fewer games. This season is going to have to be exceptional for me to pay that again. Club rugby used to feel like good value entertainment. It doesn't anymore.
</EDIT>

[Paddington Bear]

time For the french to reclaim the island

Seriously English Pro rugby needs an overhaul.

Not sure were they should start though.

1) PRL should start living within their means - as a league, not individual clubs. Too many sugar daddy owners who are interested in the success of their club and don't care if it's at the expense of the survival of the sport and too many coaches/players who consider cheating a badge of honour.

2) Sort some shit out over international windows with the RFU. I get REALLY hacked off when the top players from my club aren't available for over 1/3 of the season when away with England, particularly when England are playing such dire rugby. I like watching Marcus Smith play rugby. Last season I mostly didn't as he wasn't playing for Quins and he also mostly wasn't playing for England.

3) Play more entertaining rugby. Remember who you are competing with. It's not the other clubs, it's all other calls on people's time and money.

4) Invest in grassroots rugby. There's an inexorable decline in numbers but at least try to slow it down a bit.

I've said this before but if you want examples of how to grow a sport, look at the major US sports. They market the sport, not the clubs. Merchandise and most sponsorship is centralised to the league and sold as a package and they take steps to keep the product competitive - salary cap that's enforced, the draft etc. The owners gave up a huge amount of control some decades ago for the good of the sport. You might notice that it has worked.

<EDIT>
I had a 24% increase in my season ticket price for 3 fewer games. This season is going to have to be exceptional for me to pay that again. Club rugby used to feel like good value entertainment. It doesn't anymore.
</EDIT>

Is there any evidence of a big link between entertaining rugby and attendances? Leicester are boring as fuck and outsell all the others

[Biffer]

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

As Slick says, all predicated on selling out Murrayfield which historically is not guaranteed

I am not sure the SRU financial future is predicated in selling out 6Ns games, that wouldn't be accepted in any budget setting exercise. It will have some pretty stretching revenue targets which, as they all do, will have some flexibility in them. As said earlier the SRU did get themselves into a difficult situation some years ago with debt due to rebuild of Murrayfield and trying to run a 3rd team plus low income streams from TV, merchandising, etc. but they have turned it around, got a pretty good handle on costs, generating more revenue through better use of Murrayfield and are living within their means. The model is sustainable going forward and costs can be trimmed if we find poor team performance hits revenues - its why both pro teams work with the contracts lengths etc. I am fairly conformable with where Scottish rugby is at the moment and the URC seems to be growing in quality and coverage.

I suspect England got caught on the wave of dodgy private money from dodgy sources and once covid hit these dried up and the remaining model is in itself not sustaining. Somehow the SRU need to get a grip of the situation and develop a new strategy looking at league structures, funding, club and international demands, etc with the clubs across all the pyramid otherwise the higher you climb the further you have to fall!

The SRU also has a big batch of debentures ending shortly (I think the 25 or 30 year ones end in either 2024 or 2025). That offers the opportunity of a reasonable injection of cash by renewing them or replacing with a different scheme, but it's a one off so has to be used for one off costs - infrastructure, training facilities, stadiums, club investments etc. Can't be used for running costs but I believe the SRU has learnt that lesson.

There was chatter pre pandemic of rebuilding the East stand and putting increased hospitality in there through adding another level. There was also talk of a hotel, and of a new media centre based where the old Wanderers clubhouse is. Wouldn't be surprised to see the main stand of the Edinburgh stadium mad permanent, with hospitality in there as well.

[weegie01]

The SRU also has a big batch of debentures ending shortly (I think the 25 or 30 year ones end in either 2024 or 2025). That offers the opportunity of a reasonable injection of cash by renewing them or replacing with a different scheme, but it's a one off so has to be used for one off costs - infrastructure, training facilities, stadiums, club investments etc. Can't be used for running costs but I believe the SRU has learnt that lesson.

There is a circa £32m liability to be repaid on the existing debentures. If the SRU sells a new series at a 50% price increase, which seems reasonable after so long, they net £16m ish. Useful, but probably not enough to do things like redevelop the east stand.

Does anyone have a notion about the life span of Murrayfield itself? I wonder if replacing it is something on the SRU horizon.

[Biffer]

The SRU also has a big batch of debentures ending shortly (I think the 25 or 30 year ones end in either 2024 or 2025). That offers the opportunity of a reasonable injection of cash by renewing them or replacing with a different scheme, but it's a one off so has to be used for one off costs - infrastructure, training facilities, stadiums, club investments etc. Can't be used for running costs but I believe the SRU has learnt that lesson.

There is a circa £32m liability to be repaid on the existing debentures. If the SRU sells a new series at a 50% price increase, which seems reasonable after so long, they net £16m ish. Useful, but probably not enough to do things like redevelop the east stand.

Does anyone have a notion about the life span of Murrayfield itself? I wonder if replacing it is something on the SRU horizon.

Yeah, it's not new stadium territory, but it's a significant investment that can be the matched fund to lottery / government funding so could catalyse a lot more.

Worth noting of course that so far as I'm aware Murrayfield received absolutely no public money when it was rebuilt in the 90s.

[Slick]

Scottish Rugby has already gone through its financial crisis and is now more or less living within its means. Some uncertainty due to the interruption in revenues brought about by covid, but debt has been paid down, revenues are up. Some pretty rigid budgetary restrictions on the semi pro teams in the Super6. But we were close to the edge ten or fifteen years ago.

As Slick says, all predicated on selling out Murrayfield which historically is not guaranteed

I am not sure the SRU financial future is predicated in selling out 6Ns games, that wouldn't be accepted in any budget setting exercise. It will have some pretty stretching revenue targets which, as they all do, will have some flexibility in them. As said earlier the SRU did get themselves into a difficult situation some years ago with debt due to rebuild of Murrayfield and trying to run a 3rd team plus low income streams from TV, merchandising, etc. but they have turned it around, got a pretty good handle on costs, generating more revenue through better use of Murrayfield and are living within their means. The model is sustainable going forward and costs can be trimmed if we find poor team performance hits revenues - its why both pro teams work with the contracts lengths etc. I am fairly conformable with where Scottish rugby is at the moment and the URC seems to be growing in quality and coverage.

I suspect England got caught on the wave of dodgy private money from dodgy sources and once covid hit these dried up and the remaining model is in itself not sustaining. Somehow the SRU need to get a grip of the situation and develop a new strategy looking at league structures, funding, club and international demands, etc with the clubs across all the pyramid otherwise the higher you climb the further you have to fall!

I'm not knocking the SRU here, who have done a really excellent job in terms of the financials, even if we can certainly come down hard on them in other areas.

But I certainly disagree with you about selling out Murrayfield, pretty much everything goes back to that.

[weegie01]

The SRU also has a big batch of debentures ending shortly (I think the 25 or 30 year ones end in either 2024 or 2025). That offers the opportunity of a reasonable injection of cash by renewing them or replacing with a different scheme, but it's a one off so has to be used for one off costs - infrastructure, training facilities, stadiums, club investments etc. Can't be used for running costs but I believe the SRU has learnt that lesson.

There is a circa £32m liability to be repaid on the existing debentures. If the SRU sells a new series at a 50% price increase, which seems reasonable after so long, they net £16m ish. Useful, but probably not enough to do things like redevelop the east stand.

Does anyone have a notion about the life span of Murrayfield itself? I wonder if replacing it is something on the SRU horizon.

Yeah, it's not new stadium territory, but it's a significant investment that can be the matched fund to lottery / government funding so could catalyse a lot more.

Worth noting of course that so far as I'm aware Murrayfield received absolutely no public money when it was rebuilt in the 90s.

You are right.

It was a perfect storm, no government money, and complied with the 'no alcohol' rules from soccer that still hamsting the catering at Murrayfield.

It is pretty much the last of the old style stadiums in operation and, other than actually watching the game) the fan experience is pretty poor compared to others, and I doubt if it milks as much money from fans.

[Slick]

The SRU also has a big batch of debentures ending shortly (I think the 25 or 30 year ones end in either 2024 or 2025). That offers the opportunity of a reasonable injection of cash by renewing them or replacing with a different scheme, but it's a one off so has to be used for one off costs - infrastructure, training facilities, stadiums, club investments etc. Can't be used for running costs but I believe the SRU has learnt that lesson.

There is a circa £32m liability to be repaid on the existing debentures. If the SRU sells a new series at a 50% price increase, which seems reasonable after so long, they net £16m ish. Useful, but probably not enough to do things like redevelop the east stand.

Does anyone have a notion about the life span of Murrayfield itself? I wonder if replacing it is something on the SRU horizon.

I've seen quite a bit of chat about the urgent need to upgrade the stadium, but to be honest I think it's holding up really well. There certainly needs to be a change in the way women are treated at games in terms of the woeful lack of facilities, but I don't see much else wrong for a good few years.

I think our 50 year debentures were £1,200 back in 1993 (?) so I expect there will be significant price increases there.

[Biffer]

There is a circa £32m liability to be repaid on the existing debentures. If the SRU sells a new series at a 50% price increase, which seems reasonable after so long, they net £16m ish. Useful, but probably not enough to do things like redevelop the east stand.

Does anyone have a notion about the life span of Murrayfield itself? I wonder if replacing it is something on the SRU horizon.

Yeah, it's not new stadium territory, but it's a significant investment that can be the matched fund to lottery / government funding so could catalyse a lot more.

Worth noting of course that so far as I'm aware Murrayfield received absolutely no public money when it was rebuilt in the 90s.

You are right.

It was a perfect storm, no government money, and complied with the 'no alcohol' rules from soccer that still hamsting the catering at Murrayfield.

It is pretty much the last of the old style stadiums in operation and, other than actually watching the game) the fan experience is pretty poor compared to others, and I doubt if it milks as much money from fans.

I think the way it's built, without catering / bars / etc in the stadium itself, actually provides for a better experience. The space around the stadium allows for constant changes of provision, modern equipment for portable bars etc. I'd hope it stays that way (although I did see a plan once where the ground floor of the hotel that was planned would be able to be opened up so the entire floor was a bar area for match days, basically on the footprint of the tent bar behind the East Stand currently.

[inactionman]

There is a circa £32m liability to be repaid on the existing debentures. If the SRU sells a new series at a 50% price increase, which seems reasonable after so long, they net £16m ish. Useful, but probably not enough to do things like redevelop the east stand.

Does anyone have a notion about the life span of Murrayfield itself? I wonder if replacing it is something on the SRU horizon.

Yeah, it's not new stadium territory, but it's a significant investment that can be the matched fund to lottery / government funding so could catalyse a lot more.

Worth noting of course that so far as I'm aware Murrayfield received absolutely no public money when it was rebuilt in the 90s.

You are right.

It was a perfect storm, no government money, and complied with the 'no alcohol' rules from soccer that still hamsting the catering at Murrayfield.

It is pretty much the last of the old style stadiums in operation and, other than actually watching the game) the fan experience is pretty poor compared to others, and I doubt if it milks as much money from fans.

Ah! I was wondering about that.

[robmatic]

The SRU also has a big batch of debentures ending shortly (I think the 25 or 30 year ones end in either 2024 or 2025). That offers the opportunity of a reasonable injection of cash by renewing them or replacing with a different scheme, but it's a one off so has to be used for one off costs - infrastructure, training facilities, stadiums, club investments etc. Can't be used for running costs but I believe the SRU has learnt that lesson.

There is a circa £32m liability to be repaid on the existing debentures. If the SRU sells a new series at a 50% price increase, which seems reasonable after so long, they net £16m ish. Useful, but probably not enough to do things like redevelop the east stand.

Does anyone have a notion about the life span of Murrayfield itself? I wonder if replacing it is something on the SRU horizon.

I've seen quite a bit of chat about the urgent need to upgrade the stadium, but to be honest I think it's holding up really well. There certainly needs to be a change in the way women are treated at games in terms of the woeful lack of facilities, but I don't see much else wrong for a good few years.

I think our 50 year debentures were £1,200 back in 1993 (?) so I expect there will be significant price increases there.

The concourse facilities are definitely lacking when you compare to football stadiums in England, for example.

[JM2K6]

This is really sad news for everyone concerned most of all those losing their livelihood.

I honestly do wonder what the RFU are doing at the moment presiding over the slow inexorable melt down of English rugby.Do they have a strategy in place to sustain pro rugby in England and if so what is it? Their inaction over all these club failures must be damaging rugby in England.

I used to have BT Sport for £10 pm to watch EPL but TNT took it over and wanted £30pm so I could watch a smaller league with a number of top players now playing in France - I decided not to bother, it isn't worth it to be honest. I will stick to watching URC and French rugby, assuming Viaplay or whatever it is called now continues to operate for £100 pa.

The RFU are mostly concerned with two things: the national side(s), and the community game. Money spent looking after pro clubs that are digging themselves into ever-deeper holes is money not spent in those two areas.

The RFU are shite, poorly run, badly led, with very little vision and apparently no money left. But we should be clear here: this is not a country where the union controls what happens at the top end of the professional game. This is yet another club that racked up huge debts paying a hefty wage bill while being watched by three men and a dog, in the vain hope that they might make it into the Premiership and get a crack at the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. They're no better than the PRL charlatans who are all kidding themselves about the viability of the sport as it currently stands.

Yes, the RFU cut funding to the Championship. Yes, there's confusion over the structure of the league moving forward. No, that's not why Jersey are suddenly unable to pay wages or why back in 2016 they were in deep financial shit. And they've been bullshitting the team, too:



The RFU are hands-off here because that's exactly what the club owners wanted in the first place. Professional club rugby in this country is largely run by people who are pouring their own cash into the clubs and demanding more control as a result. Largely, they've got it. But on the flip side that means it's up to them to ensure it's sustainable. And unfortunately, for a number of reasons, it isn't. No use crying about the RFU because that's just not how the sport operates in England.

(Also, "EPL" is football, there's very few top English players playing in France, but I agree it's a very steep cost for what it is)

[tc27]

Was lucky enough to get to do the mini tour to Jersey for a preseason game against their seconds a few years back. Was a great weekend. Some of the older players at my club got to play them as they worked their way up the southern league structures..Jersey would pay for flights and hotels for visiting teams.

Largely agree with JMs comments. This course was set when the RFU missed the professionalism boat back in the kid 90s. There's no justification for bailing out privately owned clubs.

[dpedin]

This is really sad news for everyone concerned most of all those losing their livelihood.

I honestly do wonder what the RFU are doing at the moment presiding over the slow inexorable melt down of English rugby.Do they have a strategy in place to sustain pro rugby in England and if so what is it? Their inaction over all these club failures must be damaging rugby in England.

I used to have BT Sport for £10 pm to watch EPL but TNT took it over and wanted £30pm so I could watch a smaller league with a number of top players now playing in France - I decided not to bother, it isn't worth it to be honest. I will stick to watching URC and French rugby, assuming Viaplay or whatever it is called now continues to operate for £100 pa.

The RFU are mostly concerned with two things: the national side(s), and the community game. Money spent looking after pro clubs that are digging themselves into ever-deeper holes is money not spent in those two areas.

The RFU are shite, poorly run, badly led, with very little vision and apparently no money left. But we should be clear here: this is not a country where the union controls what happens at the top end of the professional game. This is yet another club that racked up huge debts paying a hefty wage bill while being watched by three men and a dog, in the vain hope that they might make it into the Premiership and get a crack at the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. They're no better than the PRL charlatans who are all kidding themselves about the viability of the sport as it currently stands.

Yes, the RFU cut funding to the Championship. Yes, there's confusion over the structure of the league moving forward. No, that's not why Jersey are suddenly unable to pay wages or why back in 2016 they were in deep financial shit. And they've been bullshitting the team, too:



The RFU are hands-off here because that's exactly what the club owners wanted in the first place. Professional club rugby in this country is largely run by people who are pouring their own cash into the clubs and demanding more control as a result. Largely, they've got it. But on the flip side that means it's up to them to ensure it's sustainable. And unfortunately, for a number of reasons, it isn't. No use crying about the RFU because that's just not how the sport operates in England.

(Also, "EPL" is football, there's very few top English players playing in France, but I agree it's a very steep cost for what it is)

My use of EPL was just me being lazy! I understand the different governance arrangements in England but the RFU still have an overall governance role for the whole of the rugby pyramid even if operationally they are hands off with top end pro league. They have a role in ensuring that rugby at all levels in England is run properly. I cant believe that the RFU should just stand back, do nothing and watch unsustainable pro clubs go to the wall, professional and international players become unemployed and the best go abroad and the pro league potentially collapse in on itself. If nothing else it will create real problems for their international team and future RFU revenue streams - the internationals are their golden goose. However I agree that from where I stand the RFU look completely inept, badly run and toothless.

[JM2K6]

This is really sad news for everyone concerned most of all those losing their livelihood.

I honestly do wonder what the RFU are doing at the moment presiding over the slow inexorable melt down of English rugby.Do they have a strategy in place to sustain pro rugby in England and if so what is it? Their inaction over all these club failures must be damaging rugby in England.

I used to have BT Sport for £10 pm to watch EPL but TNT took it over and wanted £30pm so I could watch a smaller league with a number of top players now playing in France - I decided not to bother, it isn't worth it to be honest. I will stick to watching URC and French rugby, assuming Viaplay or whatever it is called now continues to operate for £100 pa.

The RFU are mostly concerned with two things: the national side(s), and the community game. Money spent looking after pro clubs that are digging themselves into ever-deeper holes is money not spent in those two areas.

The RFU are shite, poorly run, badly led, with very little vision and apparently no money left. But we should be clear here: this is not a country where the union controls what happens at the top end of the professional game. This is yet another club that racked up huge debts paying a hefty wage bill while being watched by three men and a dog, in the vain hope that they might make it into the Premiership and get a crack at the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. They're no better than the PRL charlatans who are all kidding themselves about the viability of the sport as it currently stands.

Yes, the RFU cut funding to the Championship. Yes, there's confusion over the structure of the league moving forward. No, that's not why Jersey are suddenly unable to pay wages or why back in 2016 they were in deep financial shit. And they've been bullshitting the team, too:



The RFU are hands-off here because that's exactly what the club owners wanted in the first place. Professional club rugby in this country is largely run by people who are pouring their own cash into the clubs and demanding more control as a result. Largely, they've got it. But on the flip side that means it's up to them to ensure it's sustainable. And unfortunately, for a number of reasons, it isn't. No use crying about the RFU because that's just not how the sport operates in England.

(Also, "EPL" is football, there's very few top English players playing in France, but I agree it's a very steep cost for what it is)

My use of EPL was just me being lazy! I understand the different governance arrangements in England but the RFU still have an overall governance role for the whole of the rugby pyramid even if operationally they are hands off with top end pro league. They have a role in ensuring that rugby at all levels in England is run properly. I cant believe that the RFU should just stand back, do nothing and watch unsustainable pro clubs go to the wall, professional and international players become unemployed and the best go abroad and the pro league potentially collapse in on itself. If nothing else it will create real problems for their international team and future RFU revenue streams - the internationals are their golden goose. However I agree that from where I stand the RFU look completely inept, badly run and toothless.

They aren't doing nothing, but they're not acting quickly. However you only need to look at the nonsense being put out by several premiership and championship clubs that seem to suggest that the tactic is to stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong.

The simple facts of the matter are that at the top end of the club game, PRL runs things, not the RFU. Everything else stems from that. The RFU do not have a huge amount of money and should not be wasting it bailing out the hubris of a team with a handful of fans that pissed away millions on a pipedream.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Rather than feel sorry for Jersey there's a reasonable shout those to feel sorry for are those who've spent time losing to a side engaged in what was essentially financial doping

[Torquemada 1420]

The RFU are hands-off here because that's exactly what the club owners wanted in the first place. Professional club rugby in this country is largely run by people who are pouring their own cash into the clubs and demanding more control as a result. Largely, they've got it. But on the flip side that means it's up to them to ensure it's sustainable. And unfortunately, for a number of reasons, it isn't. No use crying about the RFU because that's just not how the sport operates in England.

(Also, "EPL" is football, there's very few top English players playing in France, but I agree it's a very steep cost for what it is)

I don't think that's entirely true and if it were, it would be even more shambolic given that the RFU must be the single largest source of funding in toto in the English game, although the funding per individual club will be exceeded (not in all cases) by the club owners.

Therefore, unless the RFU's funding has no meaningful value to the clubs, for the RFU to be "hands off" and provide uncertainty over both structure and funding (which seems to be the root cause of Jersey's demise) is criminally negligent. They are the governing body of the game in England and if they don't want that role and wish to behave as you have claimed, hand the entire thing over to a committee run by the clubs.