Brizzle v Dragons

[Kawazaki]

I feel another Ben Earl/Saracens MoM award coming...

[JM2K6]

What's all the shushing about?

[Biffer]

Man, the Dragons are going to get so badly horsed in the Heineken Cup.

[bessantj]

Probably better if I did a shift today and had tomorrow off work.

[Kawazaki]

What's all the shushing about?

Because there isn't a listen emoji.

[JM2K6]

What's all the shushing about?

Because there isn't a listen emoji.

I suppose expecting you to make sense was a massive mistake.

[Tichtheid]

Drags were well in that, for ten minutes. Bristol looked very good - Pat Lam is a good coach, throw money at him and he will get you what you want.

[Kawazaki]

What's all the shushing about?

Because there isn't a listen emoji.

I suppose expecting you to make sense was a massive mistake.

Expecting you to admit you were wrong is the same feeling.


p.s good to hear Earl saying he can't wait to get back to Saracens next year. Nice touch that I'm sure you'll agree.

[JM2K6]

Because there isn't a listen emoji.

I suppose expecting you to make sense was a massive mistake.

Expecting you to admit you were wrong is the same feeling.

Hey, I'm not the one who threw a hissy fit because someone mentioned the bad as well as the good!

Still, good to see people placing so much importance on a challenge cup game.

[Kawazaki]

I suppose expecting you to make sense was a massive mistake.

Expecting you to admit you were wrong is the same feeling.

Hey, I'm not the one who threw a hissy fit because someone mentioned the bad as well as the good!

Still, good to see people placing so much importance on a challenge cup game.

That's his 3rd MoM since the restart. He's not quite Jackson Wray level but maybe one day.

[JM2K6]

Nah, Earl is legitimately good and doesn't disappear when the going is tough. It's a shame he's not the sort of 8 Eddie wants (ditto Sam Simmonds), because he's better with ball in hand than all the other England 7 options. They're just insanely good elsewhere.

[Kawazaki]

Nah, Earl is legitimately good and doesn't disappear when the going is tough. It's a shame he's not the sort of 8 Eddie wants (ditto Sam Simmonds), because he's better with ball in hand than all the other England 7 options. They're just insanely good elsewhere.

You wait until Ethan Benson breaks out of the Saracens academy. He could be a worldy.

[JM2K6]

We'll see. Never put all your hopes in kids. They often don't turn out as good as you'd hoped (hi Dom Waldouck) or life finds a way of kicking them in the dick (hi Tom Rees / Jack Clifford / etc).

[Kawazaki]

We'll see. Never put all your hopes in kids. They often don't turn out as good as you'd hoped (hi Dom Waldouck) or life finds a way of kicking them in the dick (hi Tom Rees / Jack Clifford / etc).

Saracens have always largely developed their own, be it Jason Leonard, Justin Cassell, Tony Diprose, Ben Clarke, Dean Ryan etc etc in the old amateur era or the top players around today like Itoje, George, Farrell, Earl, Malins etc. It's a culture more than anything else, no silver spoons or gifts from the establishment for Saracens.

[JM2K6]

We'll see. Never put all your hopes in kids. They often don't turn out as good as you'd hoped (hi Dom Waldouck) or life finds a way of kicking them in the dick (hi Tom Rees / Jack Clifford / etc).

Saracens have always largely developed their own, be it Jason Leonard, Justin Cassell, Tony Diprose, Ben Clarke, Dean Ryan etc etc in the old amateur era or the top players around today like Itoje, George, Farrell, Earl, Malins etc. It's a culture more than anything else, no silver spoons or gifts from the establishment for Saracens.

Uh, you just got relegated for a sustained period of financial doping that helped you bring in hugely expensive players on top of the excellent academy output, thanks the bottomless pockets of the Saffer investors and Nigel Wray. You're wildly overreaching again.

[Kawazaki]

We'll see. Never put all your hopes in kids. They often don't turn out as good as you'd hoped (hi Dom Waldouck) or life finds a way of kicking them in the dick (hi Tom Rees / Jack Clifford / etc).

Saracens have always largely developed their own, be it Jason Leonard, Justin Cassell, Tony Diprose, Ben Clarke, Dean Ryan etc etc in the old amateur era or the top players around today like Itoje, George, Farrell, Earl, Malins etc. It's a culture more than anything else, no silver spoons or gifts from the establishment for Saracens.

Uh, you just got relegated for a sustained period of financial doping that helped you bring in hugely expensive players on top of the excellent academy output, thanks the bottomless pockets of the Saffer investors and Nigel Wray. You're wildly overreaching again.

That's a very binary way of looking at it.

Of course I could refer back to the fake jobs such as 'insurance broker' that Quins offered to a young apprentice carpentry joiner called Jason Leonard to move clubs back in the amateur era as evidence of just how much that club considered rules to be something to obey but of course being part of the old guard they didn't need to follow the rules.

Quins are everything that is wrong with English rugby.

[Raggs]

You could also hold onto to all that talent, because you could offer them better financial compensation than other clubs through cheating.

I struggle to believe Jamie George would have waited so long for regular starts at any other club, same with Spencer (I know he's finally moved)

[JM2K6]

Saracens have always largely developed their own, be it Jason Leonard, Justin Cassell, Tony Diprose, Ben Clarke, Dean Ryan etc etc in the old amateur era or the top players around today like Itoje, George, Farrell, Earl, Malins etc. It's a culture more than anything else, no silver spoons or gifts from the establishment for Saracens.

Uh, you just got relegated for a sustained period of financial doping that helped you bring in hugely expensive players on top of the excellent academy output, thanks the bottomless pockets of the Saffer investors and Nigel Wray. You're wildly overreaching again.

That's a very binary way of looking at it.

Of course I could refer back to the fake jobs such as insurance broker that Quins offered to apprentice carpentry joiners like Jason Leonard to move clubs back in the amateur era as evidence of just how much that club considered rules to be something to obey but of course being part of the old guard they didn't need to follow the rules.

Yes, the shamateurism days were rife with things like that, no argument. Certainly no point trying to defend it.

Quins are everything that is wrong with English rugby.

No, pretty sure it's the club that held the league to ransom, threatened hugely expensive legal action if anyone dared to complain about their ridiculous law-breaking, made a mockery of the concept of a level playing field, and then - after having essentially been given almost everything they wanted after the first time the other clubs complained, managed to be so egregious in their continued cheating and refusal to own up to the true scale of it that they got relegated.

Scum club that drove other clubs to the brink of financial ruin just trying to compete with their massively illegal squad and illegally won trophies.

But no question, a good academy output. Be proud

(also, Quins won a title - legitimately - with the use of an overwhelmingly English & academy-produced side)

[Kawazaki]

You could also hold onto to all that talent, because you could offer them better financial compensation than other clubs through cheating.

I struggle to believe Jamie George would have waited so long for regular starts at any other club, same with Spencer (I know he's finally moved)

Saracens never went over the salary cap. They failed the test by providing co-investments with four named players (out of a squad of 56).

[JM2K6]

That'll be why they refused to open the books then

[sockwithaticket]

We'll see. Never put all your hopes in kids. They often don't turn out as good as you'd hoped (hi Dom Waldouck) or life finds a way of kicking them in the dick (hi Tom Rees / Jack Clifford / etc).

Saracens have always largely developed their own, be it Jason Leonard, Justin Cassell, Tony Diprose, Ben Clarke, Dean Ryan etc etc in the old amateur era or the top players around today like Itoje, George, Farrell, Earl, Malins etc. It's a culture more than anything else, no silver spoons or gifts from the establishment for Saracens.

You're no better or worse than anyone else on that front. Far too much wanking on about Sarries' academy production.

Your team from the European final last year:

15 Alex Goode
14 Liam Williams - Scarlets
13 Alex Lozowski - Wasps
12 Brad Barritt © - Sharks
11 Sean Maitland - New Zealand via Scotland
10 Owen Farrell
9 Ben Spencer - Cambridge

1 Mako Vunipola - Bristol
2 Jamie George
3 Titi Lamositele - USA
4 Will Skelton - Australia
5 George Kruis
6 Maro Itoje
7 Jackson Wray
8 Billy Vunipola - Wasps

Replacements
16 Joe Gray - 'Quins
17 Richard Barrington - not quite clear, but he started out with Hartpury and Jersey
18 Vincent Koch - South Africa
19 Nick Isiekwe
20 Schalk Burger - South Africa
21 Richard Wigglesworth - Sale
22 Nick Tompkins
23 David Strettle - 'Quins

[Kawazaki]

Uh, you just got relegated for a sustained period of financial doping that helped you bring in hugely expensive players on top of the excellent academy output, thanks the bottomless pockets of the Saffer investors and Nigel Wray. You're wildly overreaching again.

That's a very binary way of looking at it.

Of course I could refer back to the fake jobs such as insurance broker that Quins offered to apprentice carpentry joiners like Jason Leonard to move clubs back in the amateur era as evidence of just how much that club considered rules to be something to obey but of course being part of the old guard they didn't need to follow the rules.

Yes, the shamateurism days were rife with things like that, no argument. Certainly no point trying to defend it.

Quins are everything that is wrong with English rugby.

No, pretty sure it's the club that held the league to ransom, threatened hugely expensive legal action if anyone dared to complain about their ridiculous law-breaking, made a mockery of the concept of a level playing field, and then - after having essentially been given almost everything they wanted after the first time the other clubs complained, managed to be so egregious in their continued cheating and refusal to own up to the true scale of it that they got relegated.

Scum club that drove other clubs to the brink of financial ruin just trying to compete with their massively illegal squad and illegally won trophies.

But no question, a good academy output. Be proud

(also, Quins won a title - legitimately - with the use of an overwhelmingly English & academy-produced side)

Quins literally have every possible advantage handed to them on a plate including easily the best catchment area for their academy. And they largely produce mediocre dross year-in year-out. It's a scandalous waste.

[JM2K6]

Quins literally have every possible advantage handed to them on a plate including easily the best catchment area for their academy. And they largely produce mediocre dross year-in year-out. It's a scandalous waste.

Nice to know you care so much. You really do overstate our advantages. We are underpeforming a bit, but we still produce good internationals and so I'm happy. Doubly so given we won the league with a big bunch of academy products.

If that makes us the worst of English rugby, well... someone has their priorities a little bit skewed.

[Kawazaki]

We'll see. Never put all your hopes in kids. They often don't turn out as good as you'd hoped (hi Dom Waldouck) or life finds a way of kicking them in the dick (hi Tom Rees / Jack Clifford / etc).

Saracens have always largely developed their own, be it Jason Leonard, Justin Cassell, Tony Diprose, Ben Clarke, Dean Ryan etc etc in the old amateur era or the top players around today like Itoje, George, Farrell, Earl, Malins etc. It's a culture more than anything else, no silver spoons or gifts from the establishment for Saracens.

You're no better or worse than anyone else on that front. Far too much wanking on about Sarries' academy production.

Your team from the European final last year:

15 Alex Goode
14 Liam Williams - Scarlets
13 Alex Lozowski - Wasps
12 Brad Barritt © - Sharks
11 Sean Maitland - New Zealand via Scotland
10 Owen Farrell
9 Ben Spencer - Cambridge

1 Mako Vunipola - Bristol
2 Jamie George
3 Titi Lamositele - USA
4 Will Skelton - Australia
5 George Kruis
6 Maro Itoje
7 Jackson Wray
8 Billy Vunipola - Wasps

Replacements
16 Joe Gray - 'Quins
17 Richard Barrington - not quite clear, but he started out with Hartpury and Jersey
18 Vincent Koch - South Africa
19 Nick Isiekwe
20 Schalk Burger - South Africa
21 Richard Wigglesworth - Sale
22 Nick Tompkins
23 David Strettle - 'Quins

Spencer went from London 1 to the Premiership? Wow - he's good.


p.s Skelton was a 170kgs unemployed former rugby player when Saracens hired him. You can post-rationalise to serve your agenda but he's a great rugby player because he joined Saracens.

Same with Barritt and to a lesser extent the Vunipolas.

Joe Gray was shite as well.

[Kawazaki]

Quins literally have every possible advantage handed to them on a plate including easily the best catchment area for their academy. And they largely produce mediocre dross year-in year-out. It's a scandalous waste.

Nice to know you care so much. You really do overstate our advantages. We are underpeforming a bit, but we still produce good internationals and so I'm happy. Doubly so given we won the league with a big bunch of academy products.

If that makes us the worst of English rugby, well... someone has their priorities a little bit skewed.

No, you really don't. Pea-hearts and whiners. It's such a pity Dombrandt went to Quins, we all know how his career will pan out already don't we. He'll just drift into a badly coached, low-expectation average groove until he reaches his late 20s when maybe he'll move to a club like Wasps or Saracens and finally get close to his potential.

[Raggs]

You could also hold onto to all that talent, because you could offer them better financial compensation than other clubs through cheating.

I struggle to believe Jamie George would have waited so long for regular starts at any other club, same with Spencer (I know he's finally moved)

Saracens never went over the salary cap. They failed the test by providing co-investments with four named players (out of a squad of 56).

[JM2K6]

p.s Skelton was a 170kgs unemployed former rugby player when Saracens hired him. You can post-rationalise to serve your agenda but he's a great rugby player because he joined Saracens.

That is total garbage.

Sarries got Will Skelton fit, but he had 64 appearances for the Waratahs and 18 Australia caps before then - any attempts to make out he's some sort of Saracens product rather than an experienced foreign player they spent money on should be laughed out of town. Especially the idea that he was unemployed - he joined Sarries from the Waratahs ffs: https://www.superxv.com/skelton-leave-w ... s-england/

Bizarre stuff. You just make things up entirely.

Same with Barritt and to a lesser extent the Vunipolas.

Oh yes, no-one thought anything of Billy Vunipola when Sarries lured him with the big bucks

Joe Gray was shite as well.

Sadly for you, he's a Saints product.

[sockwithaticket]

Saracens have always largely developed their own, be it Jason Leonard, Justin Cassell, Tony Diprose, Ben Clarke, Dean Ryan etc etc in the old amateur era or the top players around today like Itoje, George, Farrell, Earl, Malins etc. It's a culture more than anything else, no silver spoons or gifts from the establishment for Saracens.

You're no better or worse than anyone else on that front. Far too much wanking on about Sarries' academy production.

Your team from the European final last year:

15 Alex Goode
14 Liam Williams - Scarlets
13 Alex Lozowski - Wasps
12 Brad Barritt © - Sharks
11 Sean Maitland - New Zealand via Scotland
10 Owen Farrell
9 Ben Spencer - Cambridge

1 Mako Vunipola - Bristol
2 Jamie George
3 Titi Lamositele - USA
4 Will Skelton - Australia
5 George Kruis
6 Maro Itoje
7 Jackson Wray
8 Billy Vunipola - Wasps

Replacements
16 Joe Gray - 'Quins
17 Richard Barrington - not quite clear, but he started out with Hartpury and Jersey
18 Vincent Koch - South Africa
19 Nick Isiekwe
20 Schalk Burger - South Africa
21 Richard Wigglesworth - Sale
22 Nick Tompkins
23 David Strettle - 'Quins

Spencer went from London 1 to the Premiership? Wow - he's good.


p.s Skelton was a 170kgs unemployed former rugby player when Saracens hired him. You can post-rationalise to serve your agenda but he's a great rugby player because he joined Saracens.

Same with Barritt and to a lesser extent the Vunipolas.

Joe Gray was shite as well.

Holy shit that's some incredible re-writing of history.

Every club raises their own academy products, every club picks up 'lesser' or under-performing players from elsewhere and improves them. Wasps have currently got a bunch of academy and ex-championship players pointing them towards the playoffs and the last time we made it there it was the same story plus guys like Hughes who we'd bought up out of nowhere and turned into an international (see ,we can all play these games writing narratives)

The only thing we can verifiably say has set the recent Saracens crop apart is financial doping enabling the kind of squad strength in depth unseen anywhere else. Do it all again while sticking to the rules and I'll give them their due.

[JM2K6]

No, you really don't. Pea-hearts and whiners. It's such a pity Dombrandt went to Quins, we all know how his career will pan out already don't we. He'll just drift into a badly coached, low-expectation average groove until he reaches his late 20s when maybe he'll move to a club like Wasps or Saracens and finally get close to his potential.

It's genuinely funny how obsessive and bitter you are over Quins. It must really hurt knowing that your club couldn't do what Quins did without massive financial doping. It clearly eats you up inside every. single. day.


(The idea that guys like Marler, Sinckler, Brown, Robshaw are 'pea hearts and whiners' is fucking funny though!)

[Ali Cadoo]

This Saracens vs Quins shitfight is a closer-fought contest than Brizz Dregs was ever going to be.

[Kawazaki]

Every club raises their own academy products, every club picks up 'lesser' or under-performing players from elsewhere and improves them. Wasps have currently got a bunch of academy and ex-championship players pointing them towards the playoffs and the last time we made it there it was the same story plus guys like Hughes who we'd bought up out of nowhere and turned into an international (see ,we can all play these games writing narratives)

The only thing we can verifiably say has set the recent Saracens crop apart is financial doping enabling the kind of squad strength in depth unseen anywhere else. Do it all again while sticking to the rules and I'll give them their due.

Wasps are a great rugby club. No doubt about that.

[Kawazaki]

No, you really don't. Pea-hearts and whiners. It's such a pity Dombrandt went to Quins, we all know how his career will pan out already don't we. He'll just drift into a badly coached, low-expectation average groove until he reaches his late 20s when maybe he'll move to a club like Wasps or Saracens and finally get close to his potential.

It's genuinely funny how obsessive and bitter you are over Quins. It must really hurt knowing that your club couldn't do what Quins did without massive financial doping. It clearly eats you up inside every. single. day.


(The idea that guys like Marler, Sinckler, Brown, Robshaw are 'pea hearts and whiners' is fucking funny though!)

Fuck off!

If it wasn't for Ben Youngs they'd be battling for worst England player of the last decade!

[sockwithaticket]

Every club raises their own academy products, every club picks up 'lesser' or under-performing players from elsewhere and improves them. Wasps have currently got a bunch of academy and ex-championship players pointing them towards the playoffs and the last time we made it there it was the same story plus guys like Hughes who we'd bought up out of nowhere and turned into an international (see ,we can all play these games writing narratives)

The only thing we can verifiably say has set the recent Saracens crop apart is financial doping enabling the kind of squad strength in depth unseen anywhere else. Do it all again while sticking to the rules and I'll give them their due.

Wasps are a great rugby club. No doubt about that.

I appreciate the compliment, but I'm only using them because I'm most familiar with our personnel. The point is pretty much every club makes use of their academy and the championship or the unfancied from other pro outfits (Bris in particular have dipped their toes in that water recently with Thacker, Randall, Purdy etc.). We won't know whether the Sarries environment and coaching are special, a point of difference, until they do it 'clean' for a spell.

[JM2K6]

No, you really don't. Pea-hearts and whiners. It's such a pity Dombrandt went to Quins, we all know how his career will pan out already don't we. He'll just drift into a badly coached, low-expectation average groove until he reaches his late 20s when maybe he'll move to a club like Wasps or Saracens and finally get close to his potential.

It's genuinely funny how obsessive and bitter you are over Quins. It must really hurt knowing that your club couldn't do what Quins did without massive financial doping. It clearly eats you up inside every. single. day.


(The idea that guys like Marler, Sinckler, Brown, Robshaw are 'pea hearts and whiners' is fucking funny though!)

Fuck off!

If it wasn't for Ben Youngs they'd be battling for worst England player of the last decade!

That's weird. You seem to put incredible stock in man of the match awards - well, those two hoovered them up (and player of the tournament / AIs for Brown during his incredible run of form). Fantastic players, both of them, and both incredible competitors

Still, you obviously live in a bizarro-world when Saracens did nothing wrong, produce all their top players themselves, have the bestest best players of all time for every team in the league, and were paupers with barely a pot to piss in for the last decade, so I'm not going to worry too much about your view of Quins players.

[Kawazaki]

Every club raises their own academy products, every club picks up 'lesser' or under-performing players from elsewhere and improves them. Wasps have currently got a bunch of academy and ex-championship players pointing them towards the playoffs and the last time we made it there it was the same story plus guys like Hughes who we'd bought up out of nowhere and turned into an international (see ,we can all play these games writing narratives)

The only thing we can verifiably say has set the recent Saracens crop apart is financial doping enabling the kind of squad strength in depth unseen anywhere else. Do it all again while sticking to the rules and I'll give them their due.

Wasps are a great rugby club. No doubt about that.

I appreciate the compliment, but I'm only using them because I'm most familiar with our personnel. The point is pretty much every club makes use of their academy and the championship or the unfancied from other pro outfits (Bris in particular have dipped their toes in that water recently with Thacker, Randall, Purdy etc.). We won't know whether the Sarries environment and coaching are special, a point of difference, until they do it 'clean' for a spell.

'Clean' - do you think money makes home-grown players run faster or push harder as well now?!

[sockwithaticket]

Wasps are a great rugby club. No doubt about that.

I appreciate the compliment, but I'm only using them because I'm most familiar with our personnel. The point is pretty much every club makes use of their academy and the championship or the unfancied from other pro outfits (Bris in particular have dipped their toes in that water recently with Thacker, Randall, Purdy etc.). We won't know whether the Sarries environment and coaching are special, a point of difference, until they do it 'clean' for a spell.

'Clean' - do you think money makes home-grown players run faster or push harder as well now?!

I used it euphemistically, obvs.

No, but Saracens had a squad stacked with internationals in multiple positions, squad depth unparalelled by anyone else in the league. Whether you can compile and keep a squad of similar depth while keeping to the cap remains to be seen.

[JM2K6]

This has gone about as well as the "Mike Brown [top offloader in the league the previous season] never learned how to offload" argument...

Night chaps, glad we all enjoyed the game. Can't ask for more from the diddy cup :-)

[Biffer]

Drags were well in that, for ten minutes. Bristol looked very good - Pat Lam is a good coach, throw money at him and he will get you what you want.

Now, now.

Let’s not pretend that beating the Dragons by a distance makes you a decent team. They got horsed at home by Zebre this season.

[Bimbowomxn]

We'll see. Never put all your hopes in kids. They often don't turn out as good as you'd hoped (hi Dom Waldouck) or life finds a way of kicking them in the dick (hi Tom Rees / Jack Clifford / etc).

Saracens have always largely developed their own, be it Jason Leonard, Justin Cassell, Tony Diprose, Ben Clarke, Dean Ryan etc etc in the old amateur era or the top players around today like Itoje, George, Farrell, Earl, Malins etc. It's a culture more than anything else, no silver spoons or gifts from the establishment for Saracens.

Well they took almost complete players in Leonard and Clarke.

[Biffer]

We'll see. Never put all your hopes in kids. They often don't turn out as good as you'd hoped (hi Dom Waldouck) or life finds a way of kicking them in the dick (hi Tom Rees / Jack Clifford / etc).

Saracens have always largely developed their own, be it Jason Leonard, Justin Cassell, Tony Diprose, Ben Clarke, Dean Ryan etc etc in the old amateur era or the top players around today like Itoje, George, Farrell, Earl, Malins etc. It's a culture more than anything else, no silver spoons or gifts from the establishment for Saracens.

Ryan was 23 when he moved to Sarries
Leonard was 21