Jersey Gone??

[JM2K6]

Bums on seats isn't the problem.

[Dogbert]

The product isn't just the game though? This is the biggest mistake rugby is making. The NFL (and football) has created products around the game: madden/fifa, fantasy. So you're always engaged with the sport, not just for a few hours at the weekend during a match. Fantasy is the key, you're talking matchups, you're becoming knowledgeable about every team, you're checking lineups/performances weekly.

Betting also plays a part, NFL is really pushing gambling now as football does. I find it morally wrong but it's keeping people invested in the sport. At what cost ofc but still it's a clear strategy both sports have.

In today's world of sports products the actual match is almost secondary really.

I'd amplify that by saying a lot of sports have succeeded in making matchday an 'event' rather than just a game.

I've only been to a handful of NFL games but a whole load of people sat near me were barely watching (admittedly in the cheap seats on sale via seat exchanges, so presumably sporting tourists like me) - it was as much about the tailgate barbeque and the razzmatazz as it was about the intricacies of the rush defence.

Rugby is much more about the game as the centrepiece, although with beers before and after. I think most of us wince when the brought in things like the flamethrowers, and to be honest all attempts at glamming up a wet and windy friday night at the Rec, for example, tended to fall flat.

6N/Autumn Internationals excepted, you mainly go to rugby because you want to watch rugby. To be honest, I'd rather keep it that way.

By far the most griping I hear about going to Murrayfield these days is that half the folk there are just there for the event. I guess it's just an ingrained thing for us, the "event" is, as has been said, having a few beers with mates and opposition supporters before and after the game, and no number of crap bands or face painting is going to change that.

I know quite a few people that don't go to Murrayfield now because there are too many non rugby people there. The fear for the game as a whole is that the people they try and attract with all the crap razzmatazz are the people that will move onto the next shiny thing and the core has had enough and will be difficult to get back. It's a lot of people that don't understand rugby, or the rugby psyche, that are running the game.

The atmosphere at Murrayfield is the worst of all the 6 nations fixtures - it's not cheap either - there is a complete lack of emotional commitment of the Scots in the crowd , at times its almost embarrassing its not nicknamed the 'Library' without reason.

My personal view is that we are now at the mercy of corporate Sponsorship who hand out tickets to people who don't really care about the game , but its just another freebie / golfing day out event.

If your not emotionally involved as a spectator whats the F**king point.

But that's completely different to, certainly the warriors - with such a high percentage of season tickets holders , you meet the same people week in / week out at Scotstoun , and the whole corporate side is so much less , and people are emotionally involved - you never see a 'Mexican wave '
Its pretty decent value too .

I'm also getting to the stage that I prefer to watch Internationals in the pub , and that's a shame

Watching live Rugby in a ground with a great atmosphere with a febrile crowd is a fantastic experience- but its not something that occurs much these days at Murrayfield.. Its also hindered Edinburgh when they had to play there games there - hopefully we will see that change soon now they have moved into the bookcase
.

[David in Gwent]

Bums on seats isn't the problem.

Chicken, egg.

You're not going to get TV money unless there is a product that attracts people, BoS is very much the problem.

[Line6 HXFX]

Made this point before, but rugby is entertainment of last century and the century before, where there was no internet, no Virtual reality and your only form of entertainment was singing in church and the fucking bible. Where you couldn't create a home cinema for 400 quid..where there weren't things like cheap dofreality motion platforms, that take simulation to a whole other level.

Look at this forum, most of it is discussing stuff unrelated to rugby.

People making content about rugby, online, in platforms such as YouTube, is often low quality, idiotic, one eyed, angry and entitled, that puts people off. Most people are only exposed to real (ie middle class, posh, priviledged, unpleasant.. entitled.. tory) rugby fans, if they are unfortunate to happen upon forums like this..now they are crying like babies everywhere.


[media] [/media]

[Gumboot]

Look at this forum, most of it is discussing stuff unrelated to rugby.

You try to make that sound surprising, while posting more non-rugby related stuff than almost everyone else on bored.

[Slick]

The atmosphere at Murrayfield is the worst of all the 6 nations fixtures - it's not cheap either - there is a complete lack of emotional commitment of the Scots in the crowd , at times its almost embarrassing its not nicknamed the 'Library' without reason

I think that's a bit harsh, lots of folk I know that come for the 6N from various places say it's the best.

Also, to use a really annoying social media thing, tell me you've never been to Twickenham without telling me you've never been to Twickenham

[inactionman]

The atmosphere at Murrayfield is the worst of all the 6 nations fixtures - it's not cheap either - there is a complete lack of emotional commitment of the Scots in the crowd , at times its almost embarrassing its not nicknamed the 'Library' without reason

I think that's a bit harsh, lots of folk I know that come for the 6N from various places say it's the best.

Also, to use a really annoying social media thing, tell me you've never been to Twickenham without telling me you've never been to Twickenham

Twickenham really varies.

It was utterly superb for the drawn NZ test (well, the last 20 minutes, anywaY) but it has been pretty turgid when the rugby has been flat - and I have a suspicion it's also flat where the demand isn't so high and the tickets are dumped on the cheap.

I'd suggest that's the same for most nations - I've only seen Scotland Japan at Murrayfield and it wasn't the most electric, but according to people I know who went (lucky bastards - I've never manged to find a ticket) the recent England games were rocking.

I will say that, even at its worst, I still love Test Match rugby and even the 'bad' matches are still good, iyswim.

Another thing on Twickenham - it's really out of the way, which can make it a bit of an ordeal if you're just trying to get there and away. I always have a day out and my brother lives in Twickenham so I tend to stop over, I can imagine if you're trying to get down and back in the day it's not a great experience (although it's a relatively quick tube-and-taxi from Heathrow).

[Slick]

The atmosphere at Murrayfield is the worst of all the 6 nations fixtures - it's not cheap either - there is a complete lack of emotional commitment of the Scots in the crowd , at times its almost embarrassing its not nicknamed the 'Library' without reason

I think that's a bit harsh, lots of folk I know that come for the 6N from various places say it's the best.

Also, to use a really annoying social media thing, tell me you've never been to Twickenham without telling me you've never been to Twickenham

Twickenham really varies.

It was utterly superb for the drawn NZ test (Well, the last 20 minutes, anywaY) but it has been pretty turgid when the rugby has been flat - and I have a suspicion it's also flat where the demand isn't so high and the tickets are dumped on the cheap.

I'd suggest that's the same for most nations - I've only seen Scotland Japan at Murrayfield and it wasn't the most electric, but according to people I know who went (lucky bastards - I've never manged to find a ticket) the recent England games were rocking.

I will say that, even at its worst, I still love Test Match rugby and even the 'bad' matches are still good, iyswim.

I always love going to Twickenham. There, I've said it.

[Paddington Bear]

The atmosphere at Murrayfield is the worst of all the 6 nations fixtures - it's not cheap either - there is a complete lack of emotional commitment of the Scots in the crowd , at times its almost embarrassing its not nicknamed the 'Library' without reason

I think that's a bit harsh, lots of folk I know that come for the 6N from various places say it's the best.

Also, to use a really annoying social media thing, tell me you've never been to Twickenham without telling me you've never been to Twickenham

Twickenham can be very, very loud, but increasingly it is a corporate day out for the ‘set’, much the same as you’ve mentioned at Murrayfield. I really have a sense of humour failure when I see the kind of people who get tickets. Murrayfield was pretty notorious as a graveyard when Scotland were poor but the atmosphere has definitely improved as the side has got better (HQ getting worse as the team gets worse). The same people watch rugby at both so this is no surprise really.

Likewise pretty much always have a good day out at Twickenham, you just need to mentally accept you’re not ‘in London’ for the rugby. Twickenham, Richmond etc have some cracking pubs

[Slick]

The atmosphere at Murrayfield is the worst of all the 6 nations fixtures - it's not cheap either - there is a complete lack of emotional commitment of the Scots in the crowd , at times its almost embarrassing its not nicknamed the 'Library' without reason

I think that's a bit harsh, lots of folk I know that come for the 6N from various places say it's the best.

Also, to use a really annoying social media thing, tell me you've never been to Twickenham without telling me you've never been to Twickenham

Twickenham can be very, very loud, but increasingly it is a corporate day out for the ‘set’, much the same as you’ve mentioned at Murrayfield. I really have a sense of humour failure when I see the kind of people who get tickets. Murrayfield was pretty notorious as a graveyard when Scotland were poor but the atmosphere has definitely improved as the side has got better (HQ getting worse as the team gets worse). The same people watch rugby at both so this is no surprise really.

Likewise pretty much always have a good day out at Twickenham, you just need to mentally accept you’re not ‘in London’ for the rugby. Twickenham, Richmond etc have some cracking pubs

Yes, used to love my old routine of Cabbage Patch pre game then into Richmond after, usually ending up at the Sun Inn. Cliched of course, but always a great day out. Some good times on the river at Twickenham as well.

[duke]

The kick off times for recent internationals at Twickenham haven't helped either - 4.45 is a crap time for any chance of a sensible post match debrief in Richmond before getting the train back West

[tc27]

The atmosphere at Murrayfield is the worst of all the 6 nations fixtures - it's not cheap either - there is a complete lack of emotional commitment of the Scots in the crowd , at times its almost embarrassing its not nicknamed the 'Library' without reason

I think that's a bit harsh, lots of folk I know that come for the 6N from various places say it's the best.

Also, to use a really annoying social media thing, tell me you've never been to Twickenham without telling me you've never been to Twickenham

Twickenham can be very, very loud, but increasingly it is a corporate day out for the ‘set’, much the same as you’ve mentioned at Murrayfield. I really have a sense of humour failure when I see the kind of people who get tickets. Murrayfield was pretty notorious as a graveyard when Scotland were poor but the atmosphere has definitely improved as the side has got better (HQ getting worse as the team gets worse). The same people watch rugby at both so this is no surprise really.

Likewise pretty much always have a good day out at Twickenham, you just need to mentally accept you’re not ‘in London’ for the rugby. Twickenham, Richmond etc have some cracking pubs

I agree re the 'set' who get tickets. I worked at a firm where senior sales executives and directors would regularly go to 6Ns games despite having no or very little interest in rugby..its just an excuse to have a piss up on the company's dime. These people are a great source of revenue for the RFU but will contribute little to atmosphere or generating any kind of vibe that might make Twickenham a difficult place for visiting teams.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I think that's a bit harsh, lots of folk I know that come for the 6N from various places say it's the best.

Also, to use a really annoying social media thing, tell me you've never been to Twickenham without telling me you've never been to Twickenham

Twickenham really varies.

It was utterly superb for the drawn NZ test (Well, the last 20 minutes, anywaY) but it has been pretty turgid when the rugby has been flat - and I have a suspicion it's also flat where the demand isn't so high and the tickets are dumped on the cheap.

I'd suggest that's the same for most nations - I've only seen Scotland Japan at Murrayfield and it wasn't the most electric, but according to people I know who went (lucky bastards - I've never manged to find a ticket) the recent England games were rocking.

I will say that, even at its worst, I still love Test Match rugby and even the 'bad' matches are still good, iyswim.

I always love going to Twickenham. There, I've said it.

If you're driving in, and thus hopefully not drinking, looking for your car park, driving home post match thinking of the cost of the crap food at the stadium it's rather less fun than heading over on the train, having a few beers on the train, at the Cabbage Patch, at the stadium and then heading into Richmond after the game, per chance for a beer.

I'm sure there's a reason, but for now it remains a known unknown

[Dogbert]

The atmosphere at Murrayfield is the worst of all the 6 nations fixtures - it's not cheap either - there is a complete lack of emotional commitment of the Scots in the crowd , at times its almost embarrassing its not nicknamed the 'Library' without reason

I think that's a bit harsh, lots of folk I know that come for the 6N from various places say it's the best.

Also, to use a really annoying social media thing, tell me you've never been to Twickenham without telling me you've never been to Twickenham

Harsh maybe , but the atmosphere is better in Wales , Ireland and France.

As for Twickenham, my first ever visit was back in 69 , when David Duckam was scoring tries and Jim Telfer had brown hair, and Scotland couldn't kick for toffee -
The atmosphere was cracking then , gone downhill since then though

[JM2K6]

Bums on seats isn't the problem.

Chicken, egg.

You're not going to get TV money unless there is a product that attracts people, BoS is very much the problem.

We got big TV money for some time. It still doesn't cover the incredible losses in the game. Glaws v Dragons is not going to answer the problem.

English club rugby is in a period of historic popularity and clubs are going bust left right and centre. The "product" attracts people. It just doesn't command the frankly ridiculous amount of money that would be required to sustain the outgoings, for a number of reasons.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I fail to see how they cannot come to some sensible agreements on what the costs are.

As a norm wages would be say 30% of revenues, in certain industries with higher staffing costs that might rise to 50% of revenues. As a norm certain clubs have been spending 60-90% of revenues on wages, and that's just nuts.

The salary cap needs to reflect what the clubs can afford. If some clubs want to spend more feel free to tip money into a league prize pot, that money can be shared by all with the club dropping the extra money in getting to keep some premium of the cash the make available, say 5% more so it doesn't remove competition overly. If that means we simply can't compete in Europe so be it, accept like Wales, Italy and Scotland and most of France and Ireland we cannot compete on a financial basis, or just don't play in Europe.

That almost certainly means we'd have a problem keeping top tier talent in England, but we would have (far more) financially sound clubs

For as long as they spend above 50% of revenues on wages I'm not sure what defence can reasonably be offered, we've got club owners repeatedly firing both barrels into the ground around their feet and then saying it's not fair their feet are at risk

The PRL may need to step in with some notion of a minimum wage in the game, because if we keep the big names taking a similar cut and there's less money to pay wages without such reliance around taking on debt that would put a hell of a squeeze on bog standard club players remuneration. That would make it harder still to retain big names in England, but we are where we are. And really outside of a TV deal that matches what the French have, and that's just not even close to being a thing, we're not suddenly going to change where we are for the foreseeable future

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I fail to see how they cannot come to some sensible agreements on what the costs are.

As a norm wages would be say 30% of revenues, in certain industries with higher staffing costs that might rise to 50% of revenues. As a norm certain clubs have been spending 60-90% of revenues on wages, and that's just nuts.

The salary cap needs to reflect what the clubs can afford. If some clubs want to spend more feel free to tip money into a league prize pot, that money can be shared by all with the club dropping the extra money in getting to keep some premium of the cash the make available, say 5% more so it doesn't remove competition overly. If that means we simply can't compete in Europe so be it, accept like Wales, Italy and Scotland and most of France and Ireland we cannot compete on a financial basis, or just don't play in Europe.

That almost certainly means we'd have a problem keeping top tier talent in England, but we would have (far more) financially sound clubs

For as long as they spend above 50% of revenues on wages I'm not sure what defence can reasonably be offered, we've got club owners repeatedly firing both barrels into the ground around their feet and then saying it's not fair their feet are at risk

The PRL may need to step in with some notion of a minimum wage in the game, because if we keep the big names taking a similar cut and there's less money to pay wages without such reliance around taking on debt that would put a hell of a squeeze on bog standard club players remuneration. That would make it harder still to retain big names in England, but we are where we are. And really outside of a TV deal that matches what the French have, and that's just not even close to being a thing, we're not suddenly going to change where we are for the foreseeable future

This, basically.

A few years ago several clubs were heading towards sustained profitability. A handful of rich owners wanted to be able to spend what they liked on their favourite toy and for some reason the majority of owners kowtowed to this.

The result a few years later? 3 clubs bankrupt and probably a shitty TV deal incoming. You reap what you sow.

[inactionman]

I fail to see how they cannot come to some sensible agreements on what the costs are.

As a norm wages would be say 30% of revenues, in certain industries with higher staffing costs that might rise to 50% of revenues. As a norm certain clubs have been spending 60-90% of revenues on wages, and that's just nuts.

The salary cap needs to reflect what the clubs can afford. If some clubs want to spend more feel free to tip money into a league prize pot, that money can be shared by all with the club dropping the extra money in getting to keep some premium of the cash the make available, say 5% more so it doesn't remove competition overly. If that means we simply can't compete in Europe so be it, accept like Wales, Italy and Scotland and most of France and Ireland we cannot compete on a financial basis, or just don't play in Europe.

That almost certainly means we'd have a problem keeping top tier talent in England, but we would have (far more) financially sound clubs

For as long as they spend above 50% of revenues on wages I'm not sure what defence can reasonably be offered, we've got club owners repeatedly firing both barrels into the ground around their feet and then saying it's not fair their feet are at risk

The PRL may need to step in with some notion of a minimum wage in the game, because if we keep the big names taking a similar cut and there's less money to pay wages without such reliance around taking on debt that would put a hell of a squeeze on bog standard club players remuneration. That would make it harder still to retain big names in England, but we are where we are. And really outside of a TV deal that matches what the French have, and that's just not even close to being a thing, we're not suddenly going to change where we are for the foreseeable future

This, basically.

A few years ago several clubs were heading towards sustained profitability. A handful of rich owners wanted to be able to spend what they liked on their favourite toy and for some reason the majority of owners kowtowed to this.

The result a few years later? 3 clubs bankrupt and probably a shitty TV deal incoming. You reap what you sow.

The money Craig has pumped into Bath hasn't really had a huge beneficial impact on the pitch, either.

I am looking forward to seeing Finn Russell at 10, for the handful of games he's available for, but I'd prefer Orlando Bailey if it meant we lived within means.

[Biffer]

At this point, the only thing that will save Pro rugby in the UK is rivalry.

You'll get bums on seats for NGD v Bath/Bristol/Glaws - A British league or a British Isle league with the Irish and 2 divisions is what awaits - anything else is just noise.

A few years ago, the URC was starting to grow some of these. In country rivalries were already there (look at the crowds for the Irish derbies, the big day at the Principality and 25,000 for Edinburgh v Glasgow) but I felt there was a growing thing about Munster / Glasgow, Munster/Scarlets, Edinburgh/ Ulster. But the arrival of the saffers changed the structure and knocked that back a bit. Rivalries are a bit more difficult to foster when you only play each other once a season.

The last thing I want is a British league because it'll end up as an English league with a token Scottish team and a token Welsh team. It'll fuck our rugby into the ground.

[robmatic]

At this point, the only thing that will save Pro rugby in the UK is rivalry.

You'll get bums on seats for NGD v Bath/Bristol/Glaws - A British league or a British Isle league with the Irish and 2 divisions is what awaits - anything else is just noise.

It's not like the Welsh fans even turn out in their droves for these games in the European cups.

The big problem with 2 divisions is that the lower division will get royally screwed in terms of TV revenue and interest.

[JM2K6]

Jersey are being liquidated after Jersey ministers voted against funding them https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67016070

Some pretty harsh truths here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n57l8v91qo

Mr Morel highlighted the fact the club hired a new coach in September despite knowing it could not afford to.

Reds ceased trading on Wednesday last week and said they were unable to pay players and staff salaries - despite receiving £370,000 in short-term grants.

...

Mr Morel said the government tried to offer Reds a "lifeline" through the grants, but the club had failed to help itself by cutting costs.

He said: "In colloquial terms, I would liken the Reds finances to a financial ‘black hole'.

"Despite knowing about their financial problems, the Reds had consistently overspent and drawn down investors' money at a much faster rate than expected."

He said he believed the decision to hire a new member of coaching staff in September was questionable.

"I believe it knew at the point of hiring that it did not have the funds to pay salaries," Mr Morel said.

...

A review by Santander, external estimated the government would need to provide £590,000 in subsidies in 2023 for the club to stay afloat.

...

Mr Morel said Mr Farnham's proposal would "grant a blank cheque to the Jersey Reds" for the rest of the season.

He said the Reds were a private business "with a long history of financial problems".

[Margin__Walker]

Yep, can blame the structure or the RFU all you want, but there seems to have been some astonishing head in sand behaviour from the people running that club.

[David in Gwent]

At this point, the only thing that will save Pro rugby in the UK is rivalry.

You'll get bums on seats for NGD v Bath/Bristol/Glaws - A British league or a British Isle league with the Irish and 2 divisions is what awaits - anything else is just noise.

A few years ago, the URC was starting to grow some of these. In country rivalries were already there (look at the crowds for the Irish derbies, the big day at the Principality and 25,000 for Edinburgh v Glasgow) but I felt there was a growing thing about Munster / Glasgow, Munster/Scarlets, Edinburgh/ Ulster. But the arrival of the saffers changed the structure and knocked that back a bit. Rivalries are a bit more difficult to foster when you only play each other once a season.

The last thing I want is a British league because it'll end up as an English league with a token Scottish team and a token Welsh team. It'll fuck our rugby into the ground.

It's already in the ground, kid.

[Paddington Bear]

Yep, can blame the structure or the RFU all you want, but there seems to have been some astonishing head in sand behaviour from the people running that club.

And quite some cheek to ask the States to publicly fund a rugby team!

[David in Gwent]

Yep, can blame the structure or the RFU all you want, but there seems to have been some astonishing head in sand behaviour from the people running that club.

And quite some cheek to ask the States to publicly fund a rugby team!

Having lived over in the Channel Islands, the two main ones are desperate for some identity, they also throw huge sums at their football teams. Take Guernsey (40,000 alcoholics clinging to a rock) - They play in Isthmian South Central Division - and the Island pays for all of the flights for all of the away teams - which is fucking insane when you're getting 650 people to watch every home game.

[David in Gwent]

At this point, the only thing that will save Pro rugby in the UK is rivalry.

You'll get bums on seats for NGD v Bath/Bristol/Glaws - A British league or a British Isle league with the Irish and 2 divisions is what awaits - anything else is just noise.

It's not like the Welsh fans even turn out in their droves for these games in the European cups.

The big problem with 2 divisions is that the lower division will get royally screwed in terms of TV revenue and interest.

Umm, yes they do. Dragons v Glaws on a Friday night will be about 4000 + more than Dragons v Saffa Telephone Internet Corporation RUFC

[JM2K6]

Dragons getting 6000 for a Gloucester game isn't going to move the dial at all for English rugby.

[Paddington Bear]

Yep, can blame the structure or the RFU all you want, but there seems to have been some astonishing head in sand behaviour from the people running that club.

And quite some cheek to ask the States to publicly fund a rugby team!

Having lived over in the Channel Islands, the two main ones are desperate for some identity, they also throw huge sums at their football teams. Take Guernsey (40,000 alcoholics clinging to a rock) - They play in Isthmian South Central Division - and the Island pays for all of the flights for all of the away teams - which is fucking insane when you're getting 650 people to watch every home game.

Yeah my wife is from Jersey so I know it well. Jersey is a little different to Guernsey as it is twice the size but I get your point. One caveat I’d make is both islands and Jersey in particular have been very successful at keeping their young people on island rather than having a drain to the mainland, and having sporting opportunities is a factor in that. So if I were a flat tax payer over there I’d be happy enough subsidising amateur rugby sides to fly over to the mainland, there’d have been no justification for the Reds being a state owned enterprise.

And yes - they love a drink there, you should see Sark!

[David in Gwent]

Dragons getting 6000 for a Gloucester game isn't going to move the dial at all for English rugby.

It would be a sell out, I'm not just talking about English rugby here son.

[David in Gwent]

N

And quite some cheek to ask the States to publicly fund a rugby team!

Having lived over in the Channel Islands, the two main ones are desperate for some identity, they also throw huge sums at their football teams. Take Guernsey (40,000 alcoholics clinging to a rock) - They play in Isthmian South Central Division - and the Island pays for all of the flights for all of the away teams - which is fucking insane when you're getting 650 people to watch every home game.

Yeah my wife is from Jersey so I know it well. Jersey is a little different to Guernsey as it is twice the size but I get your point. One caveat I’d make is both islands and Jersey in particular have been very successful at keeping their young people on island rather than having a drain to the mainland, and having sporting opportunities is a factor in that. So if I were a flat tax payer over there I’d be happy enough subsidising amateur rugby sides to fly over to the mainland, there’d have been no justification for the Reds being a state owned enterprise.

And yes - they love a drink there, you should see Sark!

Not sure what it is but something makes me slightly uncomfy about the Islanders. Plenty of dark and very much accountable stuff happens and has happened over there. They also operate a two tier caste system with regards to jobs and accommodation but hey ho.

[Biffer]

At this point, the only thing that will save Pro rugby in the UK is rivalry.

You'll get bums on seats for NGD v Bath/Bristol/Glaws - A British league or a British Isle league with the Irish and 2 divisions is what awaits - anything else is just noise.

A few years ago, the URC was starting to grow some of these. In country rivalries were already there (look at the crowds for the Irish derbies, the big day at the Principality and 25,000 for Edinburgh v Glasgow) but I felt there was a growing thing about Munster / Glasgow, Munster/Scarlets, Edinburgh/ Ulster. But the arrival of the saffers changed the structure and knocked that back a bit. Rivalries are a bit more difficult to foster when you only play each other once a season.

The last thing I want is a British league because it'll end up as an English league with a token Scottish team and a token Welsh team. It'll fuck our rugby into the ground.

It's already in the ground, kid.

Speak for yourself. You only think that because we’ve started beating you again.

[Paddington Bear]

Having lived over in the Channel Islands, the two main ones are desperate for some identity, they also throw huge sums at their football teams. Take Guernsey (40,000 alcoholics clinging to a rock) - They play in Isthmian South Central Division - and the Island pays for all of the flights for all of the away teams - which is fucking insane when you're getting 650 people to watch every home game.

Yeah my wife is from Jersey so I know it well. Jersey is a little different to Guernsey as it is twice the size but I get your point. One caveat I’d make is both islands and Jersey in particular have been very successful at keeping their young people on island rather than having a drain to the mainland, and having sporting opportunities is a factor in that. So if I were a flat tax payer over there I’d be happy enough subsidising amateur rugby sides to fly over to the mainland, there’d have been no justification for the Reds being a state owned enterprise.

And yes - they love a drink there, you should see Sark!

Not sure what it is but something makes me slightly uncomfy about the Islanders. Plenty of dark and very much accountable stuff happens and has happened over there. They also operate a two tier caste system with regards to jobs and accommodation but hey ho.

I like it over there and have plenty of friends on Jersey, but there is something undoubtedly dodgy in parts. Not necessarily a criticism but there’s very much an end of Empire vibe to the place, I feel it particularly in St Peter Port.

No massive issue for me in how they’ve stopped the islands becoming second home locations and have provided jobs for locals (though I can now if I locate the million quid I keep behind the sofa buy any property/class as a local for jobs so I would say that)

[JM2K6]

Dragons getting 6000 for a Gloucester game isn't going to move the dial at all for English rugby.

It would be a sell out, I'm not just talking about English rugby here son.

And I'm telling you once again that bums on seats won't and don't fix the financial problems in the English game, kiddo. I couldn't give a shit what the Dragons need, if a British league doesn't help us why should we bother?

[Sandstorm]

At this point, the only thing that will save Pro rugby in the UK is rivalry.

You'll get bums on seats for NGD v Bath/Bristol/Glaws - A British league or a British Isle league with the Irish and 2 divisions is what awaits - anything else is just noise.

It's not like the Welsh fans even turn out in their droves for these games in the European cups.

The big problem with 2 divisions is that the lower division will get royally screwed in terms of TV revenue and interest.

Division 1 on pay per view, Division 2 goes free to air?

[Paddington Bear]

At this point, the only thing that will save Pro rugby in the UK is rivalry.

You'll get bums on seats for NGD v Bath/Bristol/Glaws - A British league or a British Isle league with the Irish and 2 divisions is what awaits - anything else is just noise.

It's not like the Welsh fans even turn out in their droves for these games in the European cups.

The big problem with 2 divisions is that the lower division will get royally screwed in terms of TV revenue and interest.

Division 1 on pay per view, Division 2 goes free to air?

Unless div 2 is fta in the sense that it’s on youtube, no broadcaster is picking that up

[David in Gwent]

A few years ago, the URC was starting to grow some of these. In country rivalries were already there (look at the crowds for the Irish derbies, the big day at the Principality and 25,000 for Edinburgh v Glasgow) but I felt there was a growing thing about Munster / Glasgow, Munster/Scarlets, Edinburgh/ Ulster. But the arrival of the saffers changed the structure and knocked that back a bit. Rivalries are a bit more difficult to foster when you only play each other once a season.

The last thing I want is a British league because it'll end up as an English league with a token Scottish team and a token Welsh team. It'll fuck our rugby into the ground.

It's already in the ground, kid.

Speak for yourself. You only think that because we’ve started beating you again.

No, I only think that because of all the clubs going bust.

[David in Gwent]

Dragons getting 6000 for a Gloucester game isn't going to move the dial at all for English rugby.

It would be a sell out, I'm not just talking about English rugby here son.

And I'm telling you once again that bums on seats won't and don't fix the financial problems in the English game, kiddo. I couldn't give a shit what the Dragons need, if a British league doesn't help us why should we bother?

You need to product before you can get decent money, bums on seats in the first step to having a good product.

There's going to a British league, get used to it.

[Biffer]

It's already in the ground, kid.

Speak for yourself. You only think that because we’ve started beating you again.

No, I only think that because of all the clubs going bust.

Not up here. Just in Wales and England because they both have an over inflated idea of how important their rugby is.

The desperate Welsh masturbatory fantasy of a British league has been knocking around for thirty years. It’s not going to happen. And if it does, there will be one Welsh team in it after the first five years.

[David in Gwent]

Ah, the two teams in Scotland stuffed to the brim with Saffas, sorry, it's obviously in rude health.

[inactionman]

Speak for yourself. You only think that because we’ve started beating you again.

No, I only think that because of all the clubs going bust.

Not up here. Just in Wales and England because they both have an over inflated idea of how important their rugby is.

The desperate Welsh masturbatory fantasy of a British league has been knocking around for thirty years. It’s not going to happen. And if it does, there will be one Welsh team in it after the first five years.

That's an appalling take on the situation.