Jersey Gone??

[Brazil]

I think promotion and relegation is now dead in the water, realistically none of the championship teams will be able to compete and half of them don't want to. Ealing make a lot of noise, but it's widely been reported that once the current owner's gone his kids have no appetite to keep it afloat. I think there is the possibility of an Anglo Welsh league happening, but it will be a fait accompli in the event of more English clubs going bust. In the longer term I wouldn't be surprised to see an eight team league with the 100 best England players on some sort of centralised contract, but it will take a huge amount of pain to get to that stage.

The game is in a parlous state and there's a lot more suffering to come. Ultimately it all derives from Dudley Wood sticking his head in the sand when SANZAR forced the game to go professional in 1995. There was plenty of scope for a regional league based on the old structure, but the RFU wanted nothing to do with it and passed the book to the clubs.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

[Rhubarb & Custard]

The other thing to note about that list of clubs that look sustainable is it's pretty much the south-west and east-midlands, and then yes London. Which anyone fantasising about a regional setup may wish to keep in mind

[sockwithaticket]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Wasps averaged 9,900 in the 21/22 season. That's not a million miles off Saracens' 11,500. The portion of 19/20 that allowed fans had Wasps at 13,600 which is up there with the likes of Glaws and Saints.

If we hadn't become so flaky and rubbish on the pitch over the last couple of seasons, I suspect we would have been averaging that sort of healthier crowd again. Still being relatively new to the Cov area, fans aren't quite so die hard and need a watchable product, if not success, to encourage them to keep spending their money.

[inactionman]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Wasps averaged 9,900 in the 21/22 season. That's not a million miles off Saracens' 11,500. The portion of 19/20 that allowed fans had Wasps at 13,600 which is up there with the likes of Glaws and Saints.

If we hadn't become so flaky and rubbish on the pitch over the last couple of seasons, I suspect we would have been averaging that sort of healthier crowd again. Still being relatively new to the Cov area, fans aren't quite so die hard and need a watchable product, if not success, to encourage them to keep spending their money.

I thought Wasps offered discounts to drum up interest? Had those discounts ended by 21/22? A double edged sword, you'll get 'new' people attending but it makes retention harder once the discounts end.

[sockwithaticket]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Wasps averaged 9,900 in the 21/22 season. That's not a million miles off Saracens' 11,500. The portion of 19/20 that allowed fans had Wasps at 13,600 which is up there with the likes of Glaws and Saints.

If we hadn't become so flaky and rubbish on the pitch over the last couple of seasons, I suspect we would have been averaging that sort of healthier crowd again. Still being relatively new to the Cov area, fans aren't quite so die hard and need a watchable product, if not success, to encourage them to keep spending their money.

I thought Wasps offered discounts to drum up interest? Had those discounts ended by 21/22? A double edged sword, you'll get 'new' people attending but it makes retention harder once the discounts end.

We were handing out free tickets for a while. I know post-covid that definitely stopped and I think it was being wound down in the season covid actually hit. Our highest average attendance was 17/18 season with 17,600 and free tickets were definitely in fully swing then.

[Biffer]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Leicester were hit harder by covid because of their larger ticket revenue.

[Biffer]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Wasps averaged 9,900 in the 21/22 season. That's not a million miles off Saracens' 11,500. The portion of 19/20 that allowed fans had Wasps at 13,600 which is up there with the likes of Glaws and Saints.

If we hadn't become so flaky and rubbish on the pitch over the last couple of seasons, I suspect we would have been averaging that sort of healthier crowd again. Still being relatively new to the Cov area, fans aren't quite so die hard and need a watchable product, if not success, to encourage them to keep spending their money.

I thought Wasps offered discounts to drum up interest? Had those discounts ended by 21/22? A double edged sword, you'll get 'new' people attending but it makes retention harder once the discounts end.

The SRU doesn't do those kind of promos anymore because half the time it's people who would have come anyway who end up getting the discount.

[Sinkers]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Saints?

[sockwithaticket]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Leicester were hit harder by covid because of their larger ticket revenue.

And then by the collapse of two teams. For a club trying to do things properly and used to relying on 22K supporters worth of gate and concession money, losing home games is a huge financial blow.

With Irish now gone, that's another match day's revenue they'll be missing out on.

[Biffer]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Leicester were hit harder by covid because of their larger ticket revenue.

And then by the collapse of two teams. For a club trying to do things properly and used to relying on 22K supporters worth of gate and concession money, losing home games is a huge financial blow.

With Irish now gone, that's another match day's revenue they'll be missing out on.

20,000 for each home game, times say £30, £600k per game. So a pandemic season leaves them £8.5million short without counting any playoff games income in European or Domestic rugby. Way more than others. And now three games short for the foreseeable future (one less European home fixture too) is the best part of £2million quid.

[Brazil]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Sale were getting decent crowds by the end of the season. They're also in better nick than others as the backers are heavily committed and, IIRC, they didn't squander the CVC money. If we were one of the clubs rumoured to be in trouble I'd be surprised. There's been mutterings about Exeter, which is surprising given that they have been one of the more financially sound clubs in recent years.

[Biffer]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Sale were getting decent crowds by the end of the season. They're also in better nick than others as the backers are heavily committed and, IIRC, they didn't squander the CVC money. If we were one of the clubs rumoured to be in trouble I'd be surprised. There's been mutterings about Exeter, which is surprising given that they have been one of the more financially sound clubs in recent years.

I reckon they'll have had a big hit during the pandemic as well as they have generally worked on a revenue based system not an investment backed one.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Saints?

Were on the list in my mind, between Exeter and Bristol fwiw at this late errored stage

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Sale were getting decent crowds by the end of the season. They're also in better nick than others as the backers are heavily committed and, IIRC, they didn't squander the CVC money. If we were one of the clubs rumoured to be in trouble I'd be surprised. There's been mutterings about Exeter, which is surprising given that they have been one of the more financially sound clubs in recent years.

I seem to recall hearing they were spending the CVC money on wages, but it's good news if they haven't. And good news if crowds were building, but they have before without it lasting, and I know I've been there when there was plenty of room to swing a number of cats in really any of the stands

I'd really like Sale, and Newcastle, to go well, as for all I'm not exactly a fan of franchises I'd hate to lose the additional geographical reach they provide. What I will do now is go and order some merch from both to give as Christmas gifts, every little helps and all that

[Biffer]

Looking at the current English clubs you'd expect to be able to make a go of things on a professional basis with Quins, Bath, Leicester, Glaws and Exeter, then come Sarries and Bristol who are either building towards being solid or fucked if the current owners stop investing, and then there's Sale and Newcastle who look to be problem cases because they surely don't have bums on seats.

Wasps, Irish and Wuss were all clearly a problem as regards bums on seats, as were Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Rotherham, Jersey...

So we're arguably at 8 clubs able to establish a viable position in a smallish none too wealthy sport. To get from there to 10 sustainable clubs shouldn't be impossible to sustain the current league, and that before central funding is clearly a big thing in rugby as in cricket.

Just as things stand even the likes of Leicester get into perilous positions because of the insistence they have to overspend on wages. And there can't be many better supported rugby clubs than Leicester, period, not just in England

Saints?

Saints average crowd was 12.5k last year, Leicester about 22k. Ground capacities are 15k Northampton 26k Leicester. Only team near Leicester is Bristol, not sure if that crowd is sustainable or not, we'll find out over the next few years. It's an old club on the way back up, so could well be.

Edit - also if Bath redevelop The Rec and increase capacity, they'll likely increase their attendance - sold out four times last year despite being pretty bloody poor.

[JM2K6]

Quins aren't all that healthy. The balance sheet looks okay because they shift the debts around.

[Camroc2]

At this point, the only thing that will save Pro rugby in the UK is rivalry.

You'll get bums on seats for NGD v Bath/Bristol/Glaws - A British league or a British Isle league with the Irish and 2 divisions is what awaits - anything else is just noise.

A few years ago, the URC was starting to grow some of these. In country rivalries were already there (look at the crowds for the Irish derbies, the big day at the Principality and 25,000 for Edinburgh v Glasgow) but I felt there was a growing thing about Munster / Glasgow, Munster/Scarlets, Edinburgh/ Ulster. But the arrival of the saffers changed the structure and knocked that back a bit. Rivalries are a bit more difficult to foster when you only play each other once a season.

The last thing I want is a British league because it'll end up as an English league with a token Scottish team and a token Welsh team. It'll fuck our rugby into the ground.

The IRFU won't have anything to do with a "British Isles" league.
McCafferty left a very long shadow behind him.

[David in Gwent]

At this point, the only thing that will save Pro rugby in the UK is rivalry.

You'll get bums on seats for NGD v Bath/Bristol/Glaws - A British league or a British Isle league with the Irish and 2 divisions is what awaits - anything else is just noise.

A few years ago, the URC was starting to grow some of these. In country rivalries were already there (look at the crowds for the Irish derbies, the big day at the Principality and 25,000 for Edinburgh v Glasgow) but I felt there was a growing thing about Munster / Glasgow, Munster/Scarlets, Edinburgh/ Ulster. But the arrival of the saffers changed the structure and knocked that back a bit. Rivalries are a bit more difficult to foster when you only play each other once a season.

The last thing I want is a British league because it'll end up as an English league with a token Scottish team and a token Welsh team. It'll fuck our rugby into the ground.

The IRFU won't have anything to do with a "British Isles" league.
McCafferty left a very long shadow behind him.

They don't need too, Irish rugby is ridiculously successful, second only to France. Fair play to those involved.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

At this point, the only thing that will save Pro rugby in the UK is rivalry.

You'll get bums on seats for NGD v Bath/Bristol/Glaws - A British league or a British Isle league with the Irish and 2 divisions is what awaits - anything else is just noise.

A few years ago, the URC was starting to grow some of these. In country rivalries were already there (look at the crowds for the Irish derbies, the big day at the Principality and 25,000 for Edinburgh v Glasgow) but I felt there was a growing thing about Munster / Glasgow, Munster/Scarlets, Edinburgh/ Ulster. But the arrival of the saffers changed the structure and knocked that back a bit. Rivalries are a bit more difficult to foster when you only play each other once a season.

The last thing I want is a British league because it'll end up as an English league with a token Scottish team and a token Welsh team. It'll fuck our rugby into the ground.

The IRFU won't have anything to do with a "British Isles" league.
McCafferty left a very long shadow behind him.

We don't get a lot of positives on the legacy of McCafferty, in this however we can be thankful

[JM2K6]

Phew, for a second there I thought we were going to have to manage without some Swarmist fantasising about grudges again.

[Camroc2]

Fúcking over the HEC, Premiership Rugby, and poisoning the English rugby relationship with the IRFU is some trifecta.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Have we really changed much as regards the European Cup? I don't know anyone who was following but now isn't.

I suppose there was the shift in broadcast rights, but unless we're going to say they can never change who they contract with (which would be odd) it's all much of a muchness. The league probably was and still is more important, unless you get to the semi-finals and beyond of the main European event, maybe the quarters if it's a big tie and you've some recent nearly moments in Europe

[Sandstorm]

Have we really changed much as regards the European Cup? I don't know anyone who was following but now isn't.

I suppose there was the shift in broadcast rights, but unless we're going to say they can never change who they contract with (which would be odd) it's all much of a muchness. The league probably was and still is more important, unless you get to the semi-finals and beyond of the main European event, maybe the quarters if it's a big tie and you've some recent nearly moments in Europe

European Cup was HUGE in Ireland because Leinster had no league competition of any note for a decade. Now the Saffers are here, they too might care less about it.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Have we really changed much as regards the European Cup? I don't know anyone who was following but now isn't.

I suppose there was the shift in broadcast rights, but unless we're going to say they can never change who they contract with (which would be odd) it's all much of a muchness. The league probably was and still is more important, unless you get to the semi-finals and beyond of the main European event, maybe the quarters if it's a big tie and you've some recent nearly moments in Europe

European Cup was HUGE in Ireland because Leinster had no league competition of any note for a decade. Now the Saffers are here, they too might care less about it.

My apologies, have we changed it anywhere I actually care about, which is to say England?

Although fwiw I always got the impression it was Munster who drove the interest in Ireland, and then Leinster simply had the money to continue it above the rest. And if Ireland don't like it they're free to leave and focus on their domestic, or to put forward an alternative, it's what we did so we could hardly blame them.

[JM2K6]

Fúcking over the HEC, Premiership Rugby, and poisoning the English rugby relationship with the IRFU is some trifecta.

A real shame to lose our celebrated bond with the IRFU

[Tichtheid]

Have we really changed much as regards the European Cup? I don't know anyone who was following but now isn't.

I suppose there was the shift in broadcast rights, but unless we're going to say they can never change who they contract with (which would be odd) it's all much of a muchness. The league probably was and still is more important, unless you get to the semi-finals and beyond of the main European event, maybe the quarters if it's a big tie and you've some recent nearly moments in Europe

European Cup was HUGE in Ireland because Leinster had no league competition of any note for a decade. Now the Saffers are here, they too might care less about it.

Whilst Leinster have been dominant, Connacht, Munster, Glasgow, Scarlets and Stormers have all won the league in the last ten years. I think you are overstating the importance of South African teams. They are more than welcome, but let's not go all, "They need us more than..."etc.

--------------------------------


I can't see the attraction of a British Isles league, it's not that I'm against change, I really enjoy watching the SA sides in our league, it's just that I don't see the point of Scarlets v Newcastle outside the Heineken Cup or whatever name it goes by.

I like the three leagues and the Heine, though the latter could be improved for sure