Kicking off in Israel

[David in Gwent]

Blimey, he doesn't mince his words.

[Line6 HXFX]

So the next four or five weeks, Israel will hit a bunch of schools, mosques, a bunch of people sheltering, an aid convoy or six, it will level blocks of flats, drop willy pete (white phosphorus) everywhere, launch a full scale invasion, where they will attempt to go door to door (without knowing what they want to actually achieve..all of this will be just optics, P.R) , shoot lots of kids throwing rocks, kill plenty of journalists, and commit war crimes like they are going out of fashion.

Pro israelies here will debate every attack, justify every murder, , abuse and be unpleasant as fuck to everyone who isn't fully onboard with the genocide. Pretend the genocide that is happenning, in front of our eyes.. and shown every day on tele... isn't actually a thing, and we are imagining it.


I am just floating the idea ( probably constantly)..that maybe this has all gone too far..that reasonable israelites should disband Israel (think I am correct but Israelies now have free, unquestioning visas to the USA) and they should pack up and leave, and encourage others to do the same...and that this should be an alternative in the forefront of their minds, and be there before durihg and after retaliation.

That the destruction, violence and murder that is going to happen in their ngood nmes, is just not acceptable. That Israel is not worth it, and a far far better existence awaits.

[Sandstorm]

So the next four or five weeks, Israel will hit a bunch of schools, mosques, a bunch of people sheltering, an aid convoy or six, it will level blocks of flats, drop willy pete (white phosphorus) everywhere, launch a full scale invasion, where they will attempt to go door to door (without knowing what they want to actually achieve..all of this will be just optics, P.R) , shoot lots of kids throwing rocks, kill plenty of journalists, and commit war crimes like they are going out of fashion.

Pro israelies here will debate every attack, justify every murder, , abuse and be unpleasant as fuck to everyone who isn't fully onboard with the genocide. Pretend the genocide that is happenning, in front of our eyes.. and shown every day.l isn't actually a thing, and we are imagining it.


I am just floating the idea that, probably constantly...that maybe this has all gone too far..that reasonable israelites should disband Israel (think I am correct but Israelies now have free, unquestioning visas to the USA) and they should pack up and leave, and encourage others to do the same...and that this should be an alternative in the forefront of their minds, and be there before durihg and after retaliation.

That the destruction, violence and murder that is going to happen in their ngood nmes, is just not acceptable. That Israel is not worth it, and a far far better existence awaits.

Nut. Job.

[sefton]

Blimey, he doesn't mince his words.

It doesn’t help his case when one of his first statements is a lie, Hamas is not ISIS.

[sefton]

So the next four or five weeks, Israel will hit a bunch of schools, mosques, a bunch of people sheltering, an aid convoy or six, it will level blocks of flats, drop willy pete (white phosphorus) everywhere, launch a full scale invasion, where they will attempt to go door to door (without knowing what they want to actually achieve..all of this will be just optics, P.R) , shoot lots of kids throwing rocks, kill plenty of journalists, and commit war crimes like they are going out of fashion.

Pro israelies here will debate every attack, justify every murder, , abuse and be unpleasant as fuck to everyone who isn't fully onboard with the genocide. Pretend the genocide that is happenning, in front of our eyes.. and shown every day.l isn't actually a thing, and we are imagining it.


I am just floating the idea that, probably constantly...that maybe this has all gone too far..that reasonable israelites should disband Israel (think I am correct but Israelies now have free, unquestioning visas to the USA) and they should pack up and leave, and encourage others to do the same...and that this should be an alternative in the forefront of their minds, and be there before durihg and after retaliation.

That the destruction, violence and murder that is going to happen in their ngood nmes, is just not acceptable. That Israel is not worth it, and a far far better existence awaits.

Nut. Job.

That’s being kind to him. All Israeli’s should move to America, here’s a bit of info, they’re not Americans, you anti-Semitic cunt.

[Ymx]

Blimey, he doesn't mince his words.

Wow. That was straight talking.

That interviewer was getting annoying with the bbc-esque
“Some will say that ….. “

He responded with a clearly firm sentiment. Hamas will be obliterated.

Notably he denied the white phosphorus allegation. Or at the least said the IDF denied it.

[David in Gwent]

Mohammed giving it both barrels, almost as good as a delivery as the Israeli chap, although I can imagine he triggers a few people on here.

[Ymx]

He actually used the phrase if you’re not with us you’re against us. Assuming that to be in reference to those from comfort of their respective safe countries, virtuously moralising.

[David in Gwent]

He actually used the phrase if you’re not with us you’re against us. Assuming that to be in reference to those from comfort of their respective safe countries, virtuously moralising.

Echos of Bush 9/11 which for some reason made me uncomfy.

[Ymx]

Mohammed giving it both barrels, almost as good as a delivery as the Israeli chap, although I can imagine he triggers a few people on here.

He wasn’t going to let the interviewer poison it.

BBC Interviewer kept trying to say

“Well that’s your opinion Mohammed but Hamas see it differently”

Disturbingly like the interviewer also saw it from the Hamas perspective

[Ymx]

Looks like that knife attack today in France was what suspected

The French prime minister has put the country on its highest state of counter-terrorism alert after an assailant fatally stabbed a teacher and seriously injured two others.
Witnesses say the knifeman shouted "Allahu Akbar", or "God is greatest", during the attack at a school in Arras, northern France. He is now in custody.
The "attack emergency" level has been used in previous counter-terror cases.

Global Jihad day. September 13.

[Torquemada 1420]

That’s being kind to him. All Israeli’s should move to America, here’s a bit of info, they’re not Americans, you anti-Semitic cunt.

Out of curiosity, what are they?

[David in Gwent]

Looks like that knife attack today in France was what suspected

The French prime minister has put the country on its highest state of counter-terrorism alert after an assailant fatally stabbed a teacher and seriously injured two others.
Witnesses say the knifeman shouted "Allahu Akbar", or "God is greatest", during the attack at a school in Arras, northern France. He is now in custody.
The "attack emergency" level has been used in previous counter-terror cases.

Global Jihad day. September 13.

Israeli diplomate got knifed in the street in Bejing, which is very random.

[Torquemada 1420]

Looks like that knife attack today in France was what suspected

The French prime minister has put the country on its highest state of counter-terrorism alert after an assailant fatally stabbed a teacher and seriously injured two others.
Witnesses say the knifeman shouted "Allahu Akbar", or "God is greatest", during the attack at a school in Arras, northern France. He is now in custody.
The "attack emergency" level has been used in previous counter-terror cases.

Global Jihad day. September 13.

Israeli diplomate got knifed in the street in Bejing, which is very random.

Yeah. You'd have thought chopstick.

[David in Gwent]

That’s being kind to him. All Israeli’s should move to America, here’s a bit of info, they’re not Americans, you anti-Semitic cunt.

Out of curiosity, what are they?

I know you asked the question to Sefton but they are Jews. Jews from the local geographical area dating back Millenia. The Arabs came to the area in around 650, sacking everyone's religious bits and bobs but I suppose that makes them locals too.

[David in Gwent]

Looks like that knife attack today in France was what suspected



Global Jihad day. September 13.

Israeli diplomate got knifed in the street in Bejing, which is very random.

Yeah. You'd have thought chopstick.

Boom tish.

[Ymx]

Oct 13, I meant of course. Doh

[Torquemada 1420]

That’s being kind to him. All Israeli’s should move to America, here’s a bit of info, they’re not Americans, you anti-Semitic cunt.

Out of curiosity, what are they?

I know you asked the question to Sefton but they are Jews. Jews from the local geographical area dating back Millenia. The Arabs came to the area in around 650, sacking everyone's religious bits and bobs but I suppose that makes them locals too.

I wasn't asking what religion they were.

[David in Gwent]

Out of curiosity, what are they?

I know you asked the question to Sefton but they are Jews. Jews from the local geographical area dating back Millenia. The Arabs came to the area in around 650, sacking everyone's religious bits and bobs but I suppose that makes them locals too.

I wasn't asking what religion they were.

Being Jewish is also a cultural identity thing as well as being a religion, some goes for being an Arab, you know this already.

[Torquemada 1420]

Being Jewish is also a cultural identity thing as well as being a religion, some goes for being an Arab, you know this already.

So, if me and some mates start a religion, might we have a country too? I'm thinking St Lucia would be nice.

[David in Gwent]

Being Jewish is also a cultural identity thing as well as being a religion, some goes for being an Arab, you know this already.

So, if me and some mates start a religion, might we have a country too? I'm thinking St Lucia would be nice.

The world's your oyster, Torq, go for it.

[David in Gwent]

I must admit, I really like this guys analysis, he might be an acquired taste though.

Well worth a watch but then I'm a military nerd.

[Torquemada 1420]

Being Jewish is also a cultural identity thing as well as being a religion, some goes for being an Arab, you know this already.

So, if me and some mates start a religion, might we have a country too? I'm thinking St Lucia would be nice.

The world's your oyster, Torq, go for it.

Okay. I'll go back to your first point.

By the time we got to 1900, the population of "Palestine" was approx. 90% Muslim and the bulk of the rest Christian (in fact, Christians outnumbered Jews at least as far back as the 1500s). At least half the world's Jews lived in Russia.

The Brits (well, the English) expelled all their Jews in the 13th C. The Russians persecuted the Jews throughout the period of the Pogroms. The Krauts followed on from the Russians.

So when some Jewish terrorists (Brit's term for them, not mine for the masses of illegal Jewish immigration into Palestine**: maybe read up on Aliyah Bet) declared the State of Israel in 1948, it's little surprise to see it given immediate recognition by.......... Russia and Britain (plus the Brit's stooges, the Yanks).

The reality is the overwhelming blame for the clusterf**k that is the Middle East lies with the Brits with some marginal early French input and a shedload of Yank input (mostly post WW2).

**Ironic that the Brits are now "trying to stop the boats" eh?

[David in Gwent]

So, if me and some mates start a religion, might we have a country too? I'm thinking St Lucia would be nice.

The world's your oyster, Torq, go for it.

Okay. I'll go back to your first point.

By the time we got to 1900, the population of "Palestine" was approx. 90% Muslim and the bulk of the rest Christian (in fact, Christians outnumbered Jews at least as far back as the 1500s). At least half the world's Jews lived in Russia.

The Brits (well, the English) expelled all their Jews in the 13th C. The Russians persecuted the Jews throughout the period of the Pogroms. The Krauts followed on from the Russians.

So when some Jewish terrorists (Brit's term for them, not mine for the masses of illegal Jewish immigration into Palestine**: maybe read up on Aliyah Bet) declared the State of Israel in 1948, it's little surprise to see it given immediate recognition by.......... Russia and Britain (plus the Brit's stooges, the Yanks).

The reality is the overwhelming blame for the clusterf**k that is the Middle East lies with the Brits with some marginal early French input and a shedload of Yank input (mostly post WW2).

**Ironic that the Brits are now "trying to stop the boats" eh?

Two questions for you to start with.

1. Of what relevance is the exit of the Jews from the UK in 1200 (introduced by the Normans) when 200,000 came back in the 19th century

2. Are you denying that the area is the ancestral homeland of the Jews?

[I like neeps]

Blimey, he doesn't mince his words.

It doesn’t help his case when one of his first statements is a lie, Hamas is not ISIS.

Israelis been calling Hamas ISIS all day, I note on twitter they're sponsoring ads showing the pictures of the murdered victims in Israel.

I just don't really see how killing so many Palestinians is going to keep public support in their favour. And surely pissing off Qatar/UAE isn't the best idea either.

[David in Gwent]

Blimey, he doesn't mince his words.

It doesn’t help his case when one of his first statements is a lie, Hamas is not ISIS.

Israelis been calling Hamas ISIS all day, I note on twitter they're sponsoring ads showing the pictures of the murdered victims in Israel.

I just don't really see how killing so many Palestinians is going to keep public support in their favour. And surely pissing off Qatar/UAE isn't the best idea either.

I think he made it quite clear that they're not interested in ordinary Palestinians. They're just going after Hamas.

They've dropped 6000 bombs on Gaza and "only" killed 1500 - I'd suggest they're going to great effort not to kill Civvies but I could be wrong.

In what way was Hamas' behaviour not like ISIS?

[David in Gwent]

A lot of people are expecting the IDF to roll into Gaza and get the job done quickly and easily.

It's going to be a total fucking nightmare for the IDF and casualties are going to be astronomical.

Enough to weaken the IDF so the surrounding Arab armies can move in? It's definitely a possibility.

[David in Gwent]

They already look weak to be fair. Iran and Russia must be rubbing their chinny chin chins

I don't think they're weak, just vastly unprepared and naive. If they survive this and I'm relatively confident they will, they will come back 10 times stronger, because they have too.

[David in Gwent]

They already look weak to be fair. Iran and Russia must be rubbing their chinny chin chins

I don't think they're weak, just vastly unprepared and naive. If they survive this and I'm relatively confident they will, they will come back 10 times stronger, because they have too.

I just cannot understand how they ended up so vulnerable particularly at this time as Iran is fucking around all over the gaff. It's a mystery. There is an article on the Beeb about some mothers in a kibbutz sending messages while the attacks went on. I was surprised to hear the kibbutz had ten emergency response type militia and that was it. Of course they got fucked up. This was not a small kibbutz so I would have thought a much larger militia was needed if you bordered Gaza. Anyway who knows what the future will hold for them

It's not a mystery if you learn how Hamas did what they did, as I've said before, it was tactically brilliant and probably would have been written about in military text books for years to come - right up until the point they started killing unarmed teenagers and beheading babies.

To get to the Kibbutz they had to get there undetected - the Israelis were so confident that this wouldn't happen they got plain lazy. Once the dust settles and theres an investigation, Netters is fucking toast.

Also, having someone like Biden as president is detrifuckingmental to the West and Israel. We need strength, not incontinents.

[David in Gwent]

Biden is irrelevant to this and you know it. They would have gone harder in with their Russian mate Trump. They didn't get in undetected. They were detected everywhere and both the set up to respond on the spot and at state level was fucked. Do they teach in Israeli military schools a Yom Kippur doctrine of we will get fucked up and then push back?

You couldn't be any more wrong. BIden is a world wide laughing stock, the world knows he's mentally incompetent. Trump was actively pursuing peace in the ME with the Abraham Accords Declaration signed between Israel, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain

You obviously don't know the first thing about the Hamas invasion and you're just winging it. There is no viable "response" when Hamas motorcycle riders, dressed as IDF, get waved in through the gates of the compounds. There is no viable response when heavy units don't have any infantry protection and can be killed on site by mobile teams, there is no viable response when you think that they have no air capability and then they fly through the air for 5KMs and land in your fucking back garden

[David in Gwent]

I stopped reading at Iranian/Russian/Trumpian mates.

[Ymx]

I can’t help but feel the problem of Hamas isn’t going away. Even after a military wipeout. It would seem quite indoctrinated in the population, if not by the cheering in the streets of the mutilated corpses, then by what the children are being fed.

[Torquemada 1420]

The world's your oyster, Torq, go for it.

Okay. I'll go back to your first point.

By the time we got to 1900, the population of "Palestine" was approx. 90% Muslim and the bulk of the rest Christian (in fact, Christians outnumbered Jews at least as far back as the 1500s). At least half the world's Jews lived in Russia.

The Brits (well, the English) expelled all their Jews in the 13th C. The Russians persecuted the Jews throughout the period of the Pogroms. The Krauts followed on from the Russians.

So when some Jewish terrorists (Brit's term for them, not mine for the masses of illegal Jewish immigration into Palestine**: maybe read up on Aliyah Bet) declared the State of Israel in 1948, it's little surprise to see it given immediate recognition by.......... Russia and Britain (plus the Brit's stooges, the Yanks).

The reality is the overwhelming blame for the clusterf**k that is the Middle East lies with the Brits with some marginal early French input and a shedload of Yank input (mostly post WW2).

**Ironic that the Brits are now "trying to stop the boats" eh?

Two questions for you to start with.

1. Of what relevance is the exit of the Jews from the UK in 1200 (introduced by the Normans) when 200,000 came back in the 19th century

2. Are you denying that the area is the ancestral homeland of the Jews?

I'll answer your questions although you deny me the same courtesy.

1) I note your watering down to "exit" for what was as clear a case of ethnic cleansing as you could find in history. It's relevant because it demonstrates just how far back the English/Brits wanted Jewish money but not what they considered the problem of having the Jews on their own doorstep. In echoes of the Tory's get rid of unwanted immigrants to Rwanda, your Government tried to dump them in next door Uganda FFS. It's relevant because Britain's recognition of Israel was just self interested expediency. Remember that old maxim: "The English have no morals. Only interests."

2) Errrr, yes. I thought that was clear. With a Jewish population in "Palestine" of something like 1% in 1900, the vast majority of Jews in
Israel have no meaningful connection with the area. As per my comment on giving me St Lucia, the Jews are a religious group and not a racial one and even less so a national one.

Now, I've answered your questions so maybe you will spare me more evasion and answer mine? You don't see the hypocrisy in your long running board battles over your stance to prevent illegal immigration to the UK because, amongst other things, you think it displaces and waters down culture........... whilst at the same time supporting the creation of the state of Israel with the single, biggest illegal immigration and subsequent indigenous displacement in modern history?

Now, I'm going to be very clear because I'm sure you or someone is going to post the accusation. Am I anti-Jewish? Well, yes, but no more so than I am anti any other god bothering nonsense and considerably less so than I am anti-Catholic. Basically, I think god botherers have the absolute right to live anywhere peaceably as long as their ridiculous beliefs don't unduly impinge upon the rest of us. Am I anti-Israel? 100%. I do not acknowledge the right for an illegal state to exist any more than I acknowledge Russia's ownership of the Crimea, Germany's ownership of the Sudentenland (or any other "Liebensraum").

I return to the point: the Brits' centuries of self interest and duplicity in the region (reaching back to the Crusades) is almost entirely responsible for the sh*tfest the place is today. You lot f**ked all this up.

[Line6 HXFX]

[media] [/media]

[yermum]

Okay. I'll go back to your first point.

By the time we got to 1900, the population of "Palestine" was approx. 90% Muslim and the bulk of the rest Christian (in fact, Christians outnumbered Jews at least as far back as the 1500s). At least half the world's Jews lived in Russia.

The Brits (well, the English) expelled all their Jews in the 13th C. The Russians persecuted the Jews throughout the period of the Pogroms. The Krauts followed on from the Russians.

So when some Jewish terrorists (Brit's term for them, not mine for the masses of illegal Jewish immigration into Palestine**: maybe read up on Aliyah Bet) declared the State of Israel in 1948, it's little surprise to see it given immediate recognition by.......... Russia and Britain (plus the Brit's stooges, the Yanks).

The reality is the overwhelming blame for the clusterf**k that is the Middle East lies with the Brits with some marginal early French input and a shedload of Yank input (mostly post WW2).

**Ironic that the Brits are now "trying to stop the boats" eh?

Two questions for you to start with.

1. Of what relevance is the exit of the Jews from the UK in 1200 (introduced by the Normans) when 200,000 came back in the 19th century

2. Are you denying that the area is the ancestral homeland of the Jews?

I'll answer your questions although you deny me the same courtesy.

1) I note your watering down to "exit" for what was as clear a case of ethnic cleansing as you could find in history. It's relevant because it demonstrates just how far back the English/Brits wanted Jewish money but not what they considered the problem of having the Jews on their own doorstep. In echoes of the Tory's get rid of unwanted immigrants to Rwanda, your Government tried to dump them in next door Uganda FFS. It's relevant because Britain's recognition of Israel was just self interested expediency. Remember that old maxim: "The English have no morals. Only interests."

2) Errrr, yes. I thought that was clear. With a Jewish population in "Palestine" of something like 1% in 1900, the vast majority of Jews in
Israel have no meaningful connection with the area. As per my comment on giving me St Lucia, the Jews are a religious group and not a racial one and even less so a national one.

Now, I've answered your questions so maybe you will spare me more evasion and answer mine? You don't see the hypocrisy in your long running board battles over your stance to prevent illegal immigration to the UK because, amongst other things, you think it displaces and waters down culture........... whilst at the same time supporting the creation of the state of Israel with the single, biggest illegal immigration and subsequent indigenous displacement in modern history?

Now, I'm going to be very clear because I'm sure you or someone is going to post the accusation. Am I anti-Jewish? Well, yes, but no more so than I am anti any other god bothering nonsense and considerably less so than I am anti-Catholic. Basically, I think god botherers have the absolute right to live anywhere peaceably as long as their ridiculous beliefs don't unduly impinge upon the rest of us. Am I anti-Israel? 100%. I do not acknowledge the right for an illegal state to exist any more than I acknowledge Russia's ownership of the Crimea, Germany's ownership of the Sudentenland (or any other "Liebensraum").

I return to the point: the Brits' centuries of self interest and duplicity in the region (reaching back to the Crusades) is almost entirely responsible for the sh*tfest the place is today. You lot f**ked all this up.

Ashkenazi Jews are an ethnic group. They have very specific genetic characteristics.

[Raggs]

Torq, the ideas that Jews don't have a connection to Israel, or that Jews aren't a distinctive racial group are so wrong that there's not much point in the rest of your lengthy post.

There's clear racial genetic markers found in most Jews, whether they're of European, middle Eastern or even African descent.

[David in Gwent]

Okay. I'll go back to your first point.

By the time we got to 1900, the population of "Palestine" was approx. 90% Muslim and the bulk of the rest Christian (in fact, Christians outnumbered Jews at least as far back as the 1500s). At least half the world's Jews lived in Russia.

The Brits (well, the English) expelled all their Jews in the 13th C. The Russians persecuted the Jews throughout the period of the Pogroms. The Krauts followed on from the Russians.

So when some Jewish terrorists (Brit's term for them, not mine for the masses of illegal Jewish immigration into Palestine**: maybe read up on Aliyah Bet) declared the State of Israel in 1948, it's little surprise to see it given immediate recognition by.......... Russia and Britain (plus the Brit's stooges, the Yanks).

The reality is the overwhelming blame for the clusterf**k that is the Middle East lies with the Brits with some marginal early French input and a shedload of Yank input (mostly post WW2).

**Ironic that the Brits are now "trying to stop the boats" eh?

Two questions for you to start with.

1. Of what relevance is the exit of the Jews from the UK in 1200 (introduced by the Normans) when 200,000 came back in the 19th century

2. Are you denying that the area is the ancestral homeland of the Jews?

I'll answer your questions although you deny me the same courtesy.

1) I note your watering down to "exit" for what was as clear a case of ethnic cleansing as you could find in history. It's relevant because it demonstrates just how far back the English/Brits wanted Jewish money but not what they considered the problem of having the Jews on their own doorstep. In echoes of the Tory's get rid of unwanted immigrants to Rwanda, your Government tried to dump them in next door Uganda FFS. It's relevant because Britain's recognition of Israel was just self interested expediency. Remember that old maxim: "The English have no morals. Only interests."

2) Errrr, yes. I thought that was clear. With a Jewish population in "Palestine" of something like 1% in 1900, the vast majority of Jews in
Israel have no meaningful connection with the area. As per my comment on giving me St Lucia, the Jews are a religious group and not a racial one and even less so a national one.

Now, I've answered your questions so maybe you will spare me more evasion and answer mine? You don't see the hypocrisy in your long running board battles over your stance to prevent illegal immigration to the UK because, amongst other things, you think it displaces and waters down culture........... whilst at the same time supporting the creation of the state of Israel with the single, biggest illegal immigration and subsequent indigenous displacement in modern history?

Now, I'm going to be very clear because I'm sure you or someone is going to post the accusation. Am I anti-Jewish? Well, yes, but no more so than I am anti any other god bothering nonsense and considerably less so than I am anti-Catholic. Basically, I think god botherers have the absolute right to live anywhere peaceably as long as their ridiculous beliefs don't unduly impinge upon the rest of us. Am I anti-Israel? 100%. I do not acknowledge the right for an illegal state to exist any more than I acknowledge Russia's ownership of the Crimea, Germany's ownership of the Sudentenland (or any other "Liebensraum").

I return to the point: the Brits' centuries of self interest and duplicity in the region (reaching back to the Crusades) is almost entirely responsible for the sh*tfest the place is today. You lot f**ked all this up.

I'll get back to you Torq, busy morning sorting out stuff and then it's obviously the Q/F this afternoon. Thanks for being honest, it's both refreshing and illuminating and I enjoy that you mentioned the Crusades which were in response, as you know, to Islamic imperialism and aggression.

You don't see your hypocrisy either.

Speak to you tomorrow.

[Torquemada 1420]

Torq, the ideas that Jews don't have a connection to Israel, or that Jews aren't a distinctive racial group are so wrong that there's not much point in the rest of your lengthy post.

There's clear racial genetic markers found in most Jews, whether they're of European, middle Eastern or even African descent.

They only have a connection to Israel because they created Israel.

But none of this is relevant. You may as well argue that everyone in London should claim the rights to swathes of Africa (which you lot already tried but under other auspices) because there are clear genetic markers............ well, you know the rest.

DAC might as well argue that he should have the right to go back to the house in which he was born and demand cohabitation or, in extremis, the current inhabitants move out to accommodate him.

[David in Gwent]

I must say that with your all your paragraphs you didn't mention the holocaust once - its actually quite alarming on a personal level because I know the kind of people who tend to do that.

[Torquemada 1420]

I'll get back to you Torq, busy morning sorting out stuff and then it's obviously the Q/F this afternoon. Thanks for being honest, it's both refreshing and illuminating and I enjoy that you mentioned the Crusades which were in response, as you know, to Islamic imperialism and aggression.

You don't see your hypocrisy either.

Speak to you tomorrow.

Good luck. Not that I think you'll need it against a very disappointing Arg.

And the Crusades were nothing of the sort No credible historian is going to advance of support that view these days.