Game of Thrones / Is Winter Coming?

[Paddington Bear]

He should just be honest - he's lost interest in the project and wants to do other things. There's no danger of him completing the series, and the TV version was dismal. He's tied himself up in knots with an overly complicated plot in books 4 & 5, and he knows that people will expect better than what we got in season 8. It will never happen.

[Niegs]

This is one of them



https://www.tor.com/2021/03/03/gore-ver ... s-netflix/

Ha, ha ... I was going to post that middle one as a joke. So Dune plus Starship Troopers, but presumably not as interesting as either as I've never heard of them? Sounds like a winner!

[lemonhead]

All the Pratchett and Tolkein ripoffs into focus now.

Still, hard for him to please anybody at this stage. Everyone knows the skeleton of events for both books bar an army here and location change there.

[Yr Alban]

All the Pratchett and Tolkein ripoffs into focus now.

Still, hard for him to please anybody at this stage. Everyone knows the skeleton of events for both books bar an army here and location change there.

I dunno. Some things he clearly planned (who Jon Snow’s parents were, for example). If he had an actual end in mind, though, I really don’t think it would have been much like the one in the show.

[dkm57]

I'd already worked my way through Game of Thrones before it became a 'thing', really enjoyed the books until I got bored by the repetitiveness and predictability.

There's no plot lines that haven't already happened. Caligula and Nero eh, what MFs they were. 68/69 AD Nero, Galba from the West, Otho, then Vitellius from the North and finally Vespasian from the East, then it all goes to sh#t again.

[Uncle fester]

I'd already worked my way through Game of Thrones before it became a 'thing', really enjoyed the books until I got bored by the repetitiveness and predictability.

There's no plot lines that haven't already happened. Caligula and Nero eh, what MFs they were. 68/69 AD Nero, Galba from the West, Otho, then Vitellius from the North and finally Vespasian from the East, then it all goes to sh#t again.

More war of roses tbf.
Lannister = Lancaster
Stark = York

[dkm57]

Yeah I did think War of the Roses as well, chuck in the Plantagenets and Tudors for good measure with a seasoning of Percies and Warwick.

[tabascoboy]

Not to mention the ( TBF acknowledged by GRRM) influence of the Maurice Druon books: Les Rois maudits (The Accursed Kings) about the Capetian dynasty of France

[dkm57]

Or the Byzantines, Ptolomaic Dynasty in Egypt?

Still think Tiberius, Calagula and Nero of the Julio Claudian dynasty take a bit of beating for murderous perversion, until of course, the Borgias who pretty much rewrote the book.

[tabascoboy]

He's stopped talking about TWoW for over 3 months now which I take to mean he's struggling yet again (plenty about sundry other pointless but no doubt money-spinning topics though). A 2021 release of the book looking more and more like hopeless fantasy

[lemonhead]

If bored of waiting there's a whole rake of Pratchett audiobooks on YT at the minute, originals narrated by Nigel Planer.

Got to be honest, seeing more and more 'homages' that GRRM dipped into.

[robmatic]

I don't think GRRM makes any pretense at being groundbreaking, he is fundamentally a genre writer. Game of Thrones was in many ways a response to what Tad Williams (who he is quite friendly with I think) had done very successfully with his fantasy books in the 80s. Tad Williams had the medieval European-style setting, multiple viewpoints, was light on the magical elements, quite political, was clearly against sub-Tolkien cheesiness and wrote with an epic scale. GRMM just dialed up the grittiness.

GRRM deserves some credit though for taking a baseball ball to a lot of the conventional fantasy tropes of the time and doing it very well. I was very much into fantasy as a teenager then and the Ned Stark event in the first book was shocking and perfectly done (perfectly executed?).

[Uncle fester]

I don't think GRRM makes any pretense at being groundbreaking, he is fundamentally a genre writer. Game of Thrones was in many ways a response to what Tad Williams (who he is quite friendly with I think) had done very successfully with his fantasy books in the 80s. Tad Williams had the medieval European-style setting, multiple viewpoints, was light on the magical elements, quite political, was clearly against sub-Tolkien cheesiness and wrote with an epic scale. GRMM just dialed up the grittiness.

GRRM deserves some credit though for taking a baseball ball to a lot of the conventional fantasy tropes of the time and doing it very well. I was very much into fantasy as a teenager then and the Ned Stark event in the first book was shocking and perfectly done (perfectly executed?).

Maurice Druon books a big influence as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Accursed_Kings

[tabascoboy]

Guess we can safely say TWoW is a no show in 2021, so more than 10 years now since the last publication in the series.

Not that GRRM has any financial concerns to motivate him especially with 'House of the Dragon' no doubt another nice little earner

[tabascoboy]

Looks like the "Is WInter Coming" forum is reflecting the ever increasing lack of hope/interest in the next book ever being completed by closing. Naturally no updates from GRRM since forever either...

In any case – as I said months ago, this year would be the last where I pay to keep IWC? alive. The way it has been looking for an eternity now, it has been on life support for a long, looong time anyways - the body has slowly expired. It´s time to switch those machines off. We had some very good times here, especially in the very first years when IWC? made *history* and spearheaded the detractor movement that has become mainstream now. We were right from the outset, but that comes with a poison pill: progressive irrelevance. Well, this fading-away has been somewhat gentle, without drama. People simply moving on with their lives. The aSoIaF fandom, in general, has taken a nosedive, especially ever since the show gave us closure. So, no hard feelings. It was good entertainment. Fare you all well!

The site will expire on coming April 6. This will give anybody more than 2 months time to copy/salvage any content considered worthwhile keeping. Pls note that with this final nick, I have lost all Admin/Mod powers, so you are on your own.

https://iswintercoming.com/some-farewel ... 67#p116093

[Brazil]

In any case – as I said months ago, this year would be the last where I pay to keep IWC? alive. The way it has been looking for an eternity now, it has been on life support for a long, looong time anyways - the body has slowly expired. It´s time to switch those machines off. We had some very good times here, especially in the very first years when IWC? made *history* and spearheaded the detractor movement that has become mainstream now. We were right from the outset, but that comes with a poison pill: progressive irrelevance. Well, this fading-away has been somewhat gentle, without drama. People simply moving on with their lives. The aSoIaF fandom, in general, has taken a nosedive, especially ever since the show gave us closure. So, no hard feelings. It was good entertainment. Fare you all well!

The site will expire on coming April 6. This will give anybody more than 2 months time to copy/salvage any content considered worthwhile keeping. Pls note that with this final nick, I have lost all Admin/Mod powers, so you are on your own.

Somebody buy them a stepladder.

[Uncle fester]

Yeah, the last two seasons of the show and lack of progress on the book(s) has killed all enthusiasm for things GoT related.
GRRM obviously doesn't give a bollocks anymore.

[lemonhead]

And no surprise at all, Winds is on the way! Right after:

House Of The Dragon,
Fire & Blood pt2
A condensed World of Ice and Fire
The Sea Snakes,
Ten Thousand Ships
A Dunk & Egg TV
The Golden Empire of Yi Ti

There'll be a f#cking Lamprey and Lemon Cakes cookbook out after that, you can be sure. He's done.

[Uncle fester]

Have made my peace with the fact that we'll never get it.

[tabascoboy]

Guess he is actually still working on it then.

THE WINDS OF WINTER is going to be a big book. The way it is going, it could be bigger than A STORM OF SWORDS or A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, the longest books in the series to date. I do usually cut and trim once I finish, but I need to finish first.

Really?!

[Uncle fester]

Still not over this.

[JM2K6]

Same! It was so very very dumb.

[Uncle fester]

Same! It was so very very dumb.

What?

[JM2K6]

Same! It was so very very dumb.

What?

It is a really stupid explanation for something that didn't need explanation. Just so bad. Incredible amounts of cheese.

[Uncle fester]

Same! It was so very very dumb.

What?

It is a really stupid explanation for something that didn't need explanation. Just so bad. Incredible amounts of cheese.

Or it's a storyline where the good guys learn the cost of what they need to do and the sacrifice of a much loved and very innocent character doesn't win the day. It just buys them a little time.

This and hardhome were the best episodes in the series as a result.

[LoveOfTheGame]

Same! It was so very very dumb.

What?

It is a really stupid explanation for something that didn't need explanation. Just so bad. Incredible amounts of cheese.

You seem such a grumpy person all the time, did you know? Always complaining and moaning and being negative. It must be so tiring. Do you want a hug?

[JM2K6]

What?

It is a really stupid explanation for something that didn't need explanation. Just so bad. Incredible amounts of cheese.

Or it's a storyline where the good guys learn the cost of what they need to do and the sacrifice of a much loved and very innocent character doesn't win the day. It just buys them a little time.

This and hardhome were the best episodes in the series as a result.

I think that episode still works great with his sacrifice if you don't have the pointless origin story. Imo it works better.

This isn't a controversial take or anything - there was a pretty widespread negative reaction to the whole temporal loop plotline and "explaining" why he says Hodor made a hell of a lot of people roll their eyes. It diminishes the scene and comes across as a bit of a joke.

The whole thing works better if Hodor is just a big dumb friendly guy who is used by Bran to save other people while having his agency removed by the warging. What we got is quite a bit sillier.

Lotg: I've watched the entire series run twice over. It's brilliant until it isn't. I can talk for hours about the bits that make it brilliant but this is one of the earlier examples of the writers having a bad time.

[Uncle fester]

It is a really stupid explanation for something that didn't need explanation. Just so bad. Incredible amounts of cheese.

Or it's a storyline where the good guys learn the cost of what they need to do and the sacrifice of a much loved and very innocent character doesn't win the day. It just buys them a little time.

This and hardhome were the best episodes in the series as a result.

I think that episode still works great with his sacrifice if you don't have the pointless origin story. Imo it works better.

This isn't a controversial take or anything - there was a pretty widespread negative reaction to the whole temporal loop plotline and "explaining" why he says Hodor made a hell of a lot of people roll their eyes. It diminishes the scene and comes across as a bit of a joke.

The whole thing works better if Hodor is just a big dumb friendly guy who is used by Bran to save other people while having his agency removed by the warging. What we got is quite a bit sillier.

Lotg: I've watched the entire series run twice over. It's brilliant until it isn't. I can talk for hours about the bits that make it brilliant but this is one of the earlier examples of the writers having a bad time.

Note that it wasn't Bran who warged into Hodor. It was Hodor himself so he got to see what his future death was and still sacrificed himself anyway.

[JM2K6]

Or it's a storyline where the good guys learn the cost of what they need to do and the sacrifice of a much loved and very innocent character doesn't win the day. It just buys them a little time.

This and hardhome were the best episodes in the series as a result.

I think that episode still works great with his sacrifice if you don't have the pointless origin story. Imo it works better.

This isn't a controversial take or anything - there was a pretty widespread negative reaction to the whole temporal loop plotline and "explaining" why he says Hodor made a hell of a lot of people roll their eyes. It diminishes the scene and comes across as a bit of a joke.

The whole thing works better if Hodor is just a big dumb friendly guy who is used by Bran to save other people while having his agency removed by the warging. What we got is quite a bit sillier.

Lotg: I've watched the entire series run twice over. It's brilliant until it isn't. I can talk for hours about the bits that make it brilliant but this is one of the earlier examples of the writers having a bad time.

Note that it wasn't Bran who warged into Hodor. It was Hodor himself so he got to see what his future death was and still sacrificed himself anyway.

He warged past-Hodor, which complicates things.

What I'm saying is I think it's a better scene if Bran explicitly sacrifices Hodor without the whole backstory. It has more emotional heft than "here's the big reveal why Hodor says Hodor! It sounds a bit like Hold The Door!". The scene as-is feels like they thought up that bit then worked backwards to shoehorn it in.

[Uncle fester]

You are honestly the first person I've come across who has a problem with the scene but you are entitled to your wrong opinion.

[Brazil]

I think this was one of the four things that GRRM confirmed with Benioff and Weiss when at the start of the show. The other was confirming Jon's (frankly irrelevant) lineage, that Danaerys was actually a baddie, and something else that I can't remember. Given how they raced to the conclusion of the series it's possible they didn't either.

[JM2K6]

You are honestly the first person I've come across who has a problem with the scene but you are entitled to your wrong opinion.

Nah, plenty of people hated it. Might be a books fan vs TV viewer only thing (never bothered with the books) as I avoided communities where people loved to talk for ages about the books.

I also dislike the trend of having to explain everything. Not everything needs a backstory, you know? But that's a separate complaint really.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I think this was one of the four things that GRRM confirmed with Benioff and Weiss when at the start of the show. The other was confirming Jon's (frankly irrelevant) lineage, that Danaerys was actually a baddie, and something else that I can't remember. Given how they raced to the conclusion of the series it's possible they didn't either.

If GRR had just shut the fuck up then B&W might not have fubared the final series and a half so badly.

If anybody hasn't watched the GoT series 8 pitch meeting, you should consider doing so. It's painfully accurate.

[Brazil]

You are honestly the first person I've come across who has a problem with the scene but you are entitled to your wrong opinion.

Nah, plenty of people hated it. Might be a books fan vs TV viewer only thing (never bothered with the books) as I avoided communities where people loved to talk for ages about the books.

I also dislike the trend of having to explain everything. Not everything needs a backstory, you know? But that's a separate complaint really.

I find that interesting, as I felt that a lot of the complaints about seasons six through eight revolved around the audience expecting everything to be explained, rather than following the maxim of "show don't tell". When you watch it again all the pieces are there, it's just that it's not explicitly explained in every instance. Dany is an absolute moonbarker, stannis is too, cersei was always going to act like that, so is Jamie, etc, it's all flagged seasons before. The problem was they rushed it so the plot didn't develop organically (and Jon Vs Dany had to be set up more realistically, the characterisation of Jon was one of the worst things in the series, the lads a fucking dolt, you'd not even follow him out of curiosity) and, for some reason, hid the big reveal about Bran, which they did in a godfather closing door shot which everyone missed because it was too subtle.

I quite liked the hold the door scene, it was a good way to see off a beloved character, and suited brand character at that point in the narrative.

[JM2K6]

You are honestly the first person I've come across who has a problem with the scene but you are entitled to your wrong opinion.

Nah, plenty of people hated it. Might be a books fan vs TV viewer only thing (never bothered with the books) as I avoided communities where people loved to talk for ages about the books.

I also dislike the trend of having to explain everything. Not everything needs a backstory, you know? But that's a separate complaint really.

I find that interesting, as I felt that a lot of the complaints about seasons six through eight revolved around the audience expecting everything to be explained, rather than following the maxim of "show don't tell". When you watch it again all the pieces are there, it's just that it's not explicitly explained in every instance. Dany is an absolute moonbarker, stannis is too, cersei was always going to act like that, so is Jamie, etc, it's all flagged seasons before. The problem was they rushed it so the plot didn't develop organically (and Jon Vs Dany had to be set up more realistically, the characterisation of Jon was one of the worst things in the series, the lads a fucking dolt, you'd not even follow him out of curiosity) and, for some reason, hid the big reveal about Bran, which they did in a godfather closing door shot which everyone missed because it was too subtle.

I quite liked the hold the door scene, it was a good way to see off a beloved character, and suited brand character at that point in the narrative.

Yeah, the problem isn't necessarily that none of it made sense, just that there was a sudden increase in the number of "that's just fucking stupid" events, an obvious shallowing-out of multiple characters, and very clear examples of the writers knowing where they wanted to get to and working backwards from that in a fairly hamfisted way that badly damaged some of the things that kept the earlier seasons so high quality.

There's a huge problem with pacing for sure, but it's exacerbated when characters say and do really dumb things for dumb reasons. Littlefinger became stupid. The imp became stupid. Varys became stupid. They were sacrificed for expediency so we could spend more time on really bad slapstick raids north of the wall or in Sunspear.

Dany going mad is absolutely fine, it's just how they got there that was a collection of dumb events, and even then her actions came across as particularly dense after she snapped.

Some things do need backstory and do need to be explained. Why the big dumb ox Hodor only says Hodor isn't one of those IMO.

[Uncle fester]

In the pantheon of GOT "that's fücking stupid" moments, Hold the door doesn't even make the top 1000.

Infuriating thing about season 8 in particular is that randomers on the Internet were coming up with better material than the actual writers. Show was lost when it started pandering to popular opinion. Silly shit like "cleganebowl".

Once they got past GRRM's material, they were clueless.

[Biffer]

I mean, we’re complaining about things being stupid in a story about dragons and zombies, so let’s not get too worried about it.

Shoehorned seasons 8,9, and 10 into one season because the show runners had a contract to go and run the Star Wars universe. But then they got sacked from that before making a single movie . Karmas a bitch.

[tabascoboy]

To milk the franchise for a bit longer...?

[Uncle fester]

To milk the franchise for a bit longer...?

Just finish the fücking books.

[lemonhead]

To milk the franchise for a bit longer...?

Just finish the fücking books.

To be fair to him, after a life of graft the guy's probably having the time of his life with all the side projects. Couldn't care less what he does now.

Ryan Condal will probably plug his notebooks into a ChatGRRM generator one day and we'll have the pair of them out in a weekend.