The Official English Rugby Thread

[SaintK]

How is Will Stewart an international standard prop, can anyone explain?

He’s not and neither is Will Stuart The difference when de Toit came on was astonishing
Thought Bath were well worth their win with that second half performance, blew Glaws away!!

[Paddington Bear]

How is Will Stewart an international standard prop, can anyone explain?

Yep. Finding a front row is becoming urgent for England, any roided up Grey College old boys with anglo names going?

[Margin__Walker]

How is Will Stewart an international standard prop, can anyone explain?

Yep. Finding a front row is becoming urgent for England, any roided up Grey College old boys with anglo names going?

Funny you should mention that. Leicester signed this lad who's been parachuted straight into the England u20 eps for this season.

https://www.leicestertigers.com/player/cameron-miell

Paul Roos, rather than Grey College mind.

[SaintK]

The Rugby Paper are reporting that Premiership attendances are down 16% so far this year with only Sale showing a minor increase. Could be the World Cup effect but alarm bells should be ringing.

[inactionman]

The Rugby Paper are reporting that Premiership attendances are down 16% so far this year with only Sale showing a minor increase. Could be the World Cup effect but alarm bells should be ringing.

I'd suspect that might be a significant factor - I'm sure there will be a fair few who have taken a trip to France at expense of a few home games, and just anecdotally Bath's worst attended home game was Newcastle (under 10k) which was the day after the 1/4 final. Bath away at Glos last Friday was a sell-out.

Also wonder how they're working it out, given we're down 3 clubs - is it average downturn for each team, or average for all attendances pro rata (surely it's not absolute headcount?)?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

How is Will Stewart an international standard prop, can anyone explain?

He’s not and neither is Will Stuart The difference when de Toit came on was astonishing
Thought Bath were well worth their win with that second half performance, blew Glaws away!!

I think he's looked okay coming off the bench to do that last 20 minutes or so. Not wonderful, but mostly okay.

It'd be nice to have someone much better and someone who could start when needed. Maybe Stuart can be that person even, hopefully, but he isn't entirely without merit as is.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

The Rugby Paper are reporting that Premiership attendances are down 16% so far this year with only Sale showing a minor increase. Could be the World Cup effect but alarm bells should be ringing.

Cough, I wonder if the 23% increase in season ticket price for 3 fewer games that some clubs have gone for is a factor.

[Paddington Bear]

The Rugby Paper are reporting that Premiership attendances are down 16% so far this year with only Sale showing a minor increase. Could be the World Cup effect but alarm bells should be ringing.

World Cup 100% a factor. Ticket prices are too high during a squeeze on living standards, £60+ is generally not reflective of the standard of rugby being played. Again to bang my ‘compare Prem rugby to t20 cricket and league one football’ drum, I went to a league one game for £22 yesterday, had a far better view of the pitch and cover over my head unlike at the Rec a few weeks ago, and for that money it’s hard to complain about the entertainment (was a good game anyway)

[ASMO]

Hogg showing his commentator bias there, red card all day...he has been an Exeter cheerleader all game...not a good signing for TNT.

[fishfoodie]

Hogg showing his commentator bias there, red card all day...he has been an Exeter cheerleader all game...not a good signing for TNT.

Yeah, the other commentator is dead right, the angle of the leg isn't natural.

If you're springing off one leg, the typical defensive action is too pull up the other leg too, so it's tucked under you. You see it in every GAA, AFL game, where they're claiming balls in the air.

[sockwithaticket]

Hogg showing his commentator bias there, red card all day...he has been an Exeter cheerleader all game...not a good signing for TNT.

Well I suppose it adds a new team to the list of those who've got embarassingly partisan cheerleaders in the comms teams.

Established precedent from similar incidents, Jordie Barrett's absurd card rescission aside, is clear. If he can't call clear cut incidents at least somewhat objectively, what is the point in having him in the comms booth?

[SaintK]

Hogg showing his commentator bias there, red card all day...he has been an Exeter cheerleader all game...not a good signing for TNT.

Flat man said same on ITV
Crazy

[Paddington Bear]

Hogg showing his commentator bias there, red card all day...he has been an Exeter cheerleader all game...not a good signing for TNT.

I know I’m being parochial, but I do get frustrated when we give a gig to blokes who are more than happy to give an audience a good tale of how much they hate English rugby, particularly if they have very little to add that’s interesting. TMS employing Glen McGrath this summer was similarly vexing

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Hogg showing his commentator bias there, red card all day...he has been an Exeter cheerleader all game...not a good signing for TNT.

I know I’m being parochial, but I do get frustrated when we give a gig to blokes who are more than happy to give an audience a good tale of how much they hate English rugby, particularly if they have very little to add that’s interesting. TMS employing Glen McGrath this summer was similarly vexing

I rather like McGrath and it seems a horrible misread he hates the English. Met him quite a few times at Worcester and he seems just a straight up nice bloke, almost oddly so for someone so driven and with such attention to detail

That said I do think commentary tends all too often to go to big former names who have nothing of interest to say and no ability to say even that

[SaintK]

Saints played some excellent attacking rugby against Exeter yesterday particularly in the first half.
Didn't choke on their lead either and appear to have found a bit of defensive grit from somewhere!!

[Oxbow]

It was a much improved display by Saints, Exeter never looked like scoring unless they were trying to smash it over from five metres, which was interminably dull.

[ASMO]

In other news, Arundell scores a hatrick on his first game for Racing, give him the ball, this is what he does, but Borthwick i am sure will ignore that.

[Slick]

The Rugby Paper are reporting that Premiership attendances are down 16% so far this year with only Sale showing a minor increase. Could be the World Cup effect but alarm bells should be ringing.

World Cup 100% a factor. Ticket prices are too high during a squeeze on living standards, £60+ is generally not reflective of the standard of rugby being played. Again to bang my ‘compare Prem rugby to t20 cricket and league one football’ drum, I went to a league one game for £22 yesterday, had a far better view of the pitch and cover over my head unlike at the Rec a few weeks ago, and for that money it’s hard to complain about the entertainment (was a good game anyway)

Is that really how much it is for a Prem game?

[SaintK]

In other news, Arundell scores a hatrick on his first game for Racing, give him the ball, this is what he does, but Borthwick i am sure will ignore that.

On the losing team as well!
Evidently he received more passes in this match than he hasd done in his England career

[Paddington Bear]

The Rugby Paper are reporting that Premiership attendances are down 16% so far this year with only Sale showing a minor increase. Could be the World Cup effect but alarm bells should be ringing.

World Cup 100% a factor. Ticket prices are too high during a squeeze on living standards, £60+ is generally not reflective of the standard of rugby being played. Again to bang my ‘compare Prem rugby to t20 cricket and league one football’ drum, I went to a league one game for £22 yesterday, had a far better view of the pitch and cover over my head unlike at the Rec a few weeks ago, and for that money it’s hard to complain about the entertainment (was a good game anyway)

Is that really how much it is for a Prem game?

£66 in the temporary stand at Bath a couple of weekends ago. A standing ticket at Sarries was £35 I think last year, any seat will set you back £50+. Quins much the same. The further north the cheaper it gets

[Dinsdale Piranha]

The Rugby Paper are reporting that Premiership attendances are down 16% so far this year with only Sale showing a minor increase. Could be the World Cup effect but alarm bells should be ringing.

World Cup 100% a factor. Ticket prices are too high during a squeeze on living standards, £60+ is generally not reflective of the standard of rugby being played. Again to bang my ‘compare Prem rugby to t20 cricket and league one football’ drum, I went to a league one game for £22 yesterday, had a far better view of the pitch and cover over my head unlike at the Rec a few weeks ago, and for that money it’s hard to complain about the entertainment (was a good game anyway)

Is that really how much it is for a Prem game?

My seasion ticket is £800 For 9 home games plus cup games and some randoms.

So, yes, at least.

[inactionman]

World Cup 100% a factor. Ticket prices are too high during a squeeze on living standards, £60+ is generally not reflective of the standard of rugby being played. Again to bang my ‘compare Prem rugby to t20 cricket and league one football’ drum, I went to a league one game for £22 yesterday, had a far better view of the pitch and cover over my head unlike at the Rec a few weeks ago, and for that money it’s hard to complain about the entertainment (was a good game anyway)

Is that really how much it is for a Prem game?

£66 in the temporary stand at Bath a couple of weekends ago. A standing ticket at Sarries was £35 I think last year, any seat will set you back £50+. Quins much the same. The further north the cheaper it gets

I had to go and check - standing in the terraces at the rec is now 59 quid a pop for the Gloucester match in early Jan.

I paid £304 in my last year in Bath (2016) which is about £27-28 for an assumed 11 game season (can't remember what was included in season ticket, if there were any cup games)

Assume a season ticket holder pays less than £59, but assuming it's of that order that is a massive hike.

[Paddington Bear]

Is that really how much it is for a Prem game?

£66 in the temporary stand at Bath a couple of weekends ago. A standing ticket at Sarries was £35 I think last year, any seat will set you back £50+. Quins much the same. The further north the cheaper it gets

I had to go and check - standing in the terraces at the rec is now 59 quid a pop for the Gloucester match in early Jan.

I paid £304 in my last year in Bath (2016) which is about £27-28 for an assumed 11 game season (can't remember what was include din season ticket, if there were any cup games)

Assume a season ticket holder pays less than £59, but assuming it's of that order that is a massive hike.

Yeah we ended up going on the spur of the moment (very long story), and worked out the terrace just wasn’t worth it for less than a tenner’s difference. Ended up having to change clothes in the pub toilet afterwards, it was that wet

[inactionman]

£66 in the temporary stand at Bath a couple of weekends ago. A standing ticket at Sarries was £35 I think last year, any seat will set you back £50+. Quins much the same. The further north the cheaper it gets

I had to go and check - standing in the terraces at the rec is now 59 quid a pop for the Gloucester match in early Jan.

I paid £304 in my last year in Bath (2016) which is about £27-28 for an assumed 11 game season (can't remember what was include din season ticket, if there were any cup games)

Assume a season ticket holder pays less than £59, but assuming it's of that order that is a massive hike.

Yeah we ended up going on the spur of the moment (very long story), and worked out the terrace just wasn’t worth it for less than a tenner’s difference. Ended up having to change clothes in the pub toilet afterwards, it was that wet

I've been there - in my big wooly overcoat that took 4 days to dry! Assume they've still got the pavilion/Swift Half up if it's really pelting, but not exactly much of a view of the match...

There's very little cover at the rec, and the prices for the covered seating in the riverside stand were exorbitant, even in 2016.

The other big problem with rainy days is the pitch really soaks up rain and it turns into a bog. Clay soil on a flood plain.

[Paddington Bear]

I had to go and check - standing in the terraces at the rec is now 59 quid a pop for the Gloucester match in early Jan.

I paid £304 in my last year in Bath (2016) which is about £27-28 for an assumed 11 game season (can't remember what was include din season ticket, if there were any cup games)

Assume a season ticket holder pays less than £59, but assuming it's of that order that is a massive hike.

Yeah we ended up going on the spur of the moment (very long story), and worked out the terrace just wasn’t worth it for less than a tenner’s difference. Ended up having to change clothes in the pub toilet afterwards, it was that wet

I've been there - in my big wooly overcoat that took 4 days to dry! Assume they've still got the pavilion/Swift Half up if it's really pelting, but not exactly much of a view of the match...

There's very little cover at the rec, and the prices for the covered seating in the riverside stand were exorbitant, even in 2016.

The other big problem with rainy days is the pitch really soaks up rain and it turns into a bog. Clay soil on a flood plain.

We very much saw the funny side and it was a good game. £66 for that is not value for money though. Appreciate their options are limited until the new stadium is built.

[geordie_6]

In other news, Arundell scores a hatrick on his first game for Racing, give him the ball, this is what he does, but Borthwick i am sure will ignore that.

bUt He DoEsNt ChAsE kIcKs...

[robmatic]

World Cup 100% a factor. Ticket prices are too high during a squeeze on living standards, £60+ is generally not reflective of the standard of rugby being played. Again to bang my ‘compare Prem rugby to t20 cricket and league one football’ drum, I went to a league one game for £22 yesterday, had a far better view of the pitch and cover over my head unlike at the Rec a few weeks ago, and for that money it’s hard to complain about the entertainment (was a good game anyway)

Is that really how much it is for a Prem game?

£66 in the temporary stand at Bath a couple of weekends ago. A standing ticket at Sarries was £35 I think last year, any seat will set you back £50+. Quins much the same. The further north the cheaper it gets

Oof. I've been out of the UK for a few years now but I just checked how much a ticket to see my Championship football team is these days and it's 30 quid max.

[petej]

Is that really how much it is for a Prem game?

£66 in the temporary stand at Bath a couple of weekends ago. A standing ticket at Sarries was £35 I think last year, any seat will set you back £50+. Quins much the same. The further north the cheaper it gets

Oof. I've been out of the UK for a few years now but I just checked how much a ticket to see my Championship football team is these days and it's 30 quid max.

My old seat at tigers for the saints game is about £35 but Tigers have a bigger ground.

[Slick]

World Cup 100% a factor. Ticket prices are too high during a squeeze on living standards, £60+ is generally not reflective of the standard of rugby being played. Again to bang my ‘compare Prem rugby to t20 cricket and league one football’ drum, I went to a league one game for £22 yesterday, had a far better view of the pitch and cover over my head unlike at the Rec a few weeks ago, and for that money it’s hard to complain about the entertainment (was a good game anyway)

Is that really how much it is for a Prem game?

£66 in the temporary stand at Bath a couple of weekends ago. A standing ticket at Sarries was £35 I think last year, any seat will set you back £50+. Quins much the same. The further north the cheaper it gets

That's a lot of cash for a game of rugby. I think I am probably well out of touch with how much most things cost to be honest, but I'd struggle to justify that. Just had a look and I think the top tickets for the Edinburgh v Bulls game coming up is £40

[Slick]

In other news, Arundell scores a hatrick on his first game for Racing, give him the ball, this is what he does, but Borthwick i am sure will ignore that.

On the losing team as well!
Evidently he received more passes in this match than he hasd done in his England career

Saw the trys and none of them were gimme's really. He's quite a talent, never looks like he is running particularly fast but leaving folk for dead and busting tackles with ease.

[Margin__Walker]

In other news, Arundell scores a hatrick on his first game for Racing, give him the ball, this is what he does, but Borthwick i am sure will ignore that.

On the losing team as well!
Evidently he received more passes in this match than he hasd done in his England career

Saw the trys and none of them were gimme's really. He's quite a talent, never looks like he is running particularly fast but leaving folk for dead and busting tackles with ease.

Yeah, his acceleration, balance and power is a real package with ball in hand.

He's probably got a decision to make when it comes to next season and beyond. It's likely he ends up back in Bath or another club here, but there must be at least a part of him that will be tempted to resign for Racing if he's enjoying it there.

He's young enough to come back in 3 or 4 years if he wants. He's just not the right wing for the game Borthwick is playing at the moment and I can't imagine the England experience was particularly enjoyable. At the moment, our wings are there to hold the width, chase kicks and rarely get their hands on the ball. Outside of the Chile game, no wing actually scored a try. There will be better wings in the prem than him, perhaps more defensively sound, for that gameplan.

[Raggs]

On the losing team as well!
Evidently he received more passes in this match than he hasd done in his England career

Saw the trys and none of them were gimme's really. He's quite a talent, never looks like he is running particularly fast but leaving folk for dead and busting tackles with ease.

Yeah, his acceleration, balance and power is a real package with ball in hand.

He's probably got a decision to make when it comes to next season and beyond. It's likely he ends up back in Bath or another club here, but there must be at least a part of him that will be tempted to resign for Racing if he's enjoying it there.

He's young enough to come back in 3 or 4 years if he wants. He's just not the right wing for the game Borthwick is playing at the moment and I can't imagine the England experience was particularly enjoyable. At the moment, our wings are there to hold the width, chase kicks and rarely get their hands on the ball. Outside of the Chile game, no wing actually scored a try. There will be better wings in the prem than him, perhaps more defensively sound, for that gameplan.

The problem is apparently his defense.



He put in one or two good hits too that I've seen, but he's badly ball watching in the first bit of the clip (which leads to him getting stepped by a flanker), gets badly sucked in on the next one, then it looks like he assumes the ball is going out and just lets off the gas, that was completely on him there. Then there's a good tackle.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

And yet we've seen howlers from Daly and May in defence, we've seen Steward defend like a statue. So issues in defence are only issues in defence if they're the right (or wrong) sort of issue, would seem the issue

[Raggs]

And yet we've seen howlers from Daly and May in defence, we've seen Steward defend like a statue. So issues in defence are only issues in defence if they're the right (or wrong) sort of issue, would seem the issue

We have, but the one where he seems to give up the chase is not something I'd expect to see from the likes of May etc.

I do think he should have been used, but at least we can look at this and recognise he's not perfect, so it's not completely open and shut.

[Margin__Walker]

Sure, he's not the best defensive outside back, but I don't think he's as bad as people make out. Spring (who also got pulled in on that second clip) was far worse and had some proper howlers in that game.

I don't think Racing are going to lose too much sleep over his defence (which is improving) if he retains that sort of threat for them.

[sockwithaticket]

Defence is the far more coachable skill than what he offers in attack and I'd add the likes of Nowell and Ashton to recent England wingers with defensive frailities who've been picked despite them, by way of suggesting that any deficiencies shouldn't necessarily be enough to exclude him.

However, until there's some sign of England wanting to use the outside backs for something other than kick chasing he may as well be left to enjoy his new club.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

And yet we've seen howlers from Daly and May in defence, we've seen Steward defend like a statue. So issues in defence are only issues in defence if they're the right (or wrong) sort of issue, would seem the issue

We have, but the one where he seems to give up the chase is not something I'd expect to see from the likes of May etc.

I do think he should have been used, but at least we can look at this and recognise he's not perfect, so it's not completely open and shut.

We've seen Daly literally turn his back on an attack, just giving up entirely.

It's hardly all Arundell, we've got problems with handling, decision making, carrying into contact, ball presentation, support, speed of play (or lack thereof), width and shape of attack, putting pace/width on the game. So far our best solution as with the SA or group game Vs Argentina has been to ignore all that, and Arundell does perhaps lack the best contribution to wanting to do nothing.

One thing we do get with Arundell, or should, is given how easily we get far too narrow in defence you've suddenly got a more effective scramble because he is simply faster

[Margin__Walker]

It's really odd.

May's very good defensively at least these days, albeit he's gone now. Defending the outside channels is hard though and Daly and Steward have frequently been turned inside out. Steward especially has looked incredibly frail defensively. His 6N performance against France comes to mind as something worse than I've ever seen from Arundell. Sure, there's improvement to be had, but It just seems like an easy way for people to dismiss Arundell and he does seem to be held to a higher standard than others.

[Brazil]

It's really odd.

May's very good defensively at least these days, albeit he's gone now. Defending the outside channels is hard though and Daly and Steward have frequently been turned inside out. Steward especially has looked incredibly frail defensively. His 6N performance against France comes to mind as something worse than I've ever seen from Arundell. Sure, there's improvement to be had, but It just seems like an easy way for people to dismiss Arundell and he does seem to be held to a higher standard than others.

"He can't tackle" is the default criticism of all creative players by England fans who are determined that yeomanlike metronomy and a big boot are the apex characteristics of a world class ten. We're unlucky in that we have a head coach who believes the data shows that there is no room for flair in the international game (or at least not until 78 minutes into a semi final when you're desperately chasing the game), so it just compounds those excuses.

Edit: it also means that there's a double standard when the supposed defensive stalwarts have absolute howlers. I remember Charlie Hodgson chasing a player down after a monstrous defensive fuck up by Tindall, which got studiously ignored.

[Tichtheid]

I think in general wingers get a tough time about defence, I saw Kolbe get sat on his arse by Chris Harris in the Lions series, LRZ is, to use the technical term, shite defensively, we have nightmares about Big Duhan and his positioning

This was supposed to happen, when the game went pro the defence was the first thing to sort out and we took on League-style lines, over time the attacking tactics have become more sophisticated and more difficult to deal with. "He's very strong defensively" is often a euphemism for not being Penaud in attack.

Personally, I'd pick Arundell, improve the defensive system the best you can, but use his skills in attack, he's a rare talent.