NZ Rugby selection thread / all blacks

[Gumboot]

Why are you posting stuff about Beauden's historical goalkicking issues? He hasn't kicked at test level for over a year (thankfully!).

And it's debatable that he cost us the Lions series win - I reckon SBW's second test brain-fart and Kaino's subsequent replacement with Laumape (on debut!) were at least as consequential to the series outcome.

OK, I may have been a tad OTT in my criticism of Jordan yesterday... was still filthy about our 2nd half capitulation. He didn't play well, but I'll concede that he wasn't Clarke-level bad.

Bummer that Narawa's injured; thought he was in for a big tourney. At this rate, Clarke may get back in by default.

[Ymx]

Name a test when Barrett's played that poorly, then.

Just reminding you what you asked.

Anyway. Time to pick ourselves up from that shambles.

[Ymx]

I happen to think the ABs don’t play well in the heat. As of this weekend the heatwave has gone.

Was De Groot injured, as he showed titan like qualities in scrums in the past.

Something in general is not right with the tight five. Lineouts clumsy, scrums not as powerful, mauls not as well handled. Last year they were brilliant across all hemispheres. Ryan really needs to sort this out ASAP. But we know they can perform there, so let’s have it. Italy match will be the final test for them.

[Grandpa]

I happen to think the ABs don’t play well in the heat. As of this weekend the heatwave has gone.

Was De Groot injured, as he showed titan like qualities in scrums in the past.

Something in general is not right with the tight five. Lineouts clumsy, scrums not as powerful, mauls not as well handled. Last year they were brilliant across all hemispheres. Ryan really needs to sort this out ASAP. But we know they can perform there, so let’s have it. Italy match will be the final test for them.

They were fine in the RC as well playing Schmidtball... last two matches have been old style Fozball... no earning the right to go wide.. just go wide anyway... no mauling, no pick and goes... no variety... braindead Fozball... I hope that it's a ploy to not show their full hand until the quarters...

[Grandpa]

Probably how we all felt...

[Ymx]

I happen to think the ABs don’t play well in the heat. As of this weekend the heatwave has gone.

Was De Groot injured, as he showed titan like qualities in scrums in the past.

Something in general is not right with the tight five. Lineouts clumsy, scrums not as powerful, mauls not as well handled. Last year they were brilliant across all hemispheres. Ryan really needs to sort this out ASAP. But we know they can perform there, so let’s have it. Italy match will be the final test for them.

They were fine in the RC as well playing Schmidtball... last two matches have been old style Fozball... no earning the right to go wide.. just go wide anyway... no mauling, no pick and goes... no variety... braindead Fozball... I hope that it's a ploy to not show their full hand until the quarters...

I can’t believe McCleod actually said that the ABs will pull the trigger in the second half. That’s embarrassing.

[Kiwias]

I happen to think the ABs don’t play well in the heat. As of this weekend the heatwave has gone.

Was De Groot injured, as he showed titan like qualities in scrums in the past.

Something in general is not right with the tight five. Lineouts clumsy, scrums not as powerful, mauls not as well handled. Last year they were brilliant across all hemispheres. Ryan really needs to sort this out ASAP. But we know they can perform there, so let’s have it. Italy match will be the final test for them.

They were fine in the RC as well playing Schmidtball... last two matches have been old style Fozball... no earning the right to go wide.. just go wide anyway... no mauling, no pick and goes... no variety... braindead Fozball... I hope that it's a ploy to not show their full hand until the quarters...

I can’t believe McCleod actually said that the ABs will pull the trigger in the second half. That’s embarrassing.

Did he specify the direction in which the gun was pointed?

[Ymx]

They were fine in the RC as well playing Schmidtball... last two matches have been old style Fozball... no earning the right to go wide.. just go wide anyway... no mauling, no pick and goes... no variety... braindead Fozball... I hope that it's a ploy to not show their full hand until the quarters...

I can’t believe McCleod actually said that the ABs will pull the trigger in the second half. That’s embarrassing.

Did he specify the direction in which the gun was pointed?

Quality post

[Grandpa]

I happen to think the ABs don’t play well in the heat. As of this weekend the heatwave has gone.

Was De Groot injured, as he showed titan like qualities in scrums in the past.

Something in general is not right with the tight five. Lineouts clumsy, scrums not as powerful, mauls not as well handled. Last year they were brilliant across all hemispheres. Ryan really needs to sort this out ASAP. But we know they can perform there, so let’s have it. Italy match will be the final test for them.

They were fine in the RC as well playing Schmidtball... last two matches have been old style Fozball... no earning the right to go wide.. just go wide anyway... no mauling, no pick and goes... no variety... braindead Fozball... I hope that it's a ploy to not show their full hand until the quarters...

I can’t believe McCleod actually said that the ABs will pull the trigger in the second half. That’s embarrassing.

When did he say that? Before the match?

[Ymx]

At the break apparently, someone said on the match thread.

[Guy Smiley]

I can’t believe McCleod actually said that the ABs will pull the trigger in the second half. That’s embarrassing.

When did he say that? Before the match?

If the assistant coach is speaking then that will be in the half time break when broadcasters think 8 words from a coach or a player will offer up invaluable insight for the fans.

At half time, I thought the ABs had looked the more likely of the two teams. They'd made a couple of decent attacks and managed to hold ground well... as opposed to France who couldn't seem to make their attacks work. The ABs could have been a couple of tries up at that stage and it wouldn't have been against the run of play. While the exact wording is up for debate, it's not really all that out there for a coach to say something about giving it a crack after the break... it's only hindsight that leads to questioning the words.

[Guy Smiley]

[Grandpa]

I can’t believe McCleod actually said that the ABs will pull the trigger in the second half. That’s embarrassing.

When did he say that? Before the match?

If the assistant coach is speaking then that will be in the half time break when broadcasters think 8 words from a coach or a player will offer up invaluable insight for the fans.

At half time, I thought the ABs had looked the more likely of the two teams. They'd made a couple of decent attacks and managed to hold ground well... as opposed to France who couldn't seem to make their attacks work. The ABs could have been a couple of tries up at that stage and it wouldn't have been against the run of play. While the exact wording is up for debate, it's not really all that out there for a coach to say something about giving it a crack after the break... it's only hindsight that leads to questioning the words.

I thought they had a fighters chance as long as they changed tactics... stopped kicking the ball away, held on to it and developed some forward momentum... instead they kicked more and aimlessly... I believe there is hope though if they go back to what worked so well in the RC... earn the right... to go wide...

Unlike some people I wasn't happy with the way NZ played first half... it was Fozball that came off... no platform... yuck.. Too much side to side stuff... not enough simple pick and goes or short passes close to the ruck..

[Grandpa]

At 9.09 they talk about the two matches against SA earlier this year and last year where they played well.. but they played off the 9 and kept it close... laying a platform... just what I was talking about above...

Bryn Hall says the opponents stopped this... but I disagree... it was our tactics to go wide quick constantly which was the issue... too predictable. Caught them early with it.. but it's too flakey an approach to work consistently... we need more pressure closer to the breakdown, else we just play into the good team's hands...

[Ymx]

It’s easy to get carried away with that crazy result.

But surely it drives the final nail in the Sam Cane coffin.

His decline as a player is not sudden thing, and I can’t bit help think he’s failed to drive home the mantra.

It struck me when I saw McCaw talking after the Bokke defeat.

I slightly wonder if McCaw has volunteered behind the scenes. He’s certainly been around and about.

[Ymx]

I’d like to see Ardie remain as captain/talisman

[Simian]

At 9.09 they talk about the two matches against SA earlier this year and last year where they played well.. but they played off the 9 and kept it close... laying a platform... just what I was talking about above...

Bryn Hall says the opponents stopped this... but I disagree... it was our tactics to go wide quick constantly which was the issue... too predictable. Caught them early with it.. but it's too flakey an approach to work consistently... we need more pressure closer to the breakdown, else we just play into the good team's hands...

Completely agree.

[Guy Smiley]

[Ymx]

So, where have we got to with Razors coaching team?

I’ve not kept up with any news from down there.

[Ymx]

Just dug this out.

Robertson is well liked, certainly in comparison to Foster's introduction, but he, too, will soon discover there is no honeymoon as All Blacks head coach.

Robertson's inexperienced All Blacks coaching team includes Scott Hansen, Leon MacDonald, Jason Holland and Ryan - the latter the only member with limited Test experience.

That group will bring a fresh vision but they will inevitably make mistakes. As with any post-World Cup era they must navigate the departures of several legends - Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith and Dane Coles among them. Leicester Fainga'anuku, Shannon Frizell and Nepo Laulala leave other sizable holes to fill. Sam Cane and Ardie Savea will need to be reintegrated from their six-month sabbaticals in Japan - and Beauden Barrett is yet to determine his future beyond a one-season stint in the same league. Regenerating the All Blacks with the next tier of talent will be easier in some positions than others. Damian McKenzie will slot in at first five-eighth next year - yet at Test level he remains unproven there.

Along with juggling those balls, cultivating a new culture and relationships Robertson must settle on his captain - likely to be Scott Barrett with a view to the next World Cup - as he readies the All Blacks for England's arrival in July.

[Gumboot]

I'd be ok with Scooter assuming the captaincy. He's been our best performing lock for a couple of years, and you've gotta be pretty special to break up the Whitelock/Retallick starting partnership. A lot's been made of his disciplinary record, but without crunching the numbers, it wouldn't surprise me if he's copped fewer test red/yellow cards than Cane.

[Guy Smiley]

Razor has referred to respecting the jersey and the position... unsurprisingly, he builds qualities into his teams and players. Based on that I think he'll want to stick with experience but I'd be happier if Barrett wasn't chosen, myself... the cards. Same with Cane... I want someone who can stay out of trouble. I know that's a big ask but I think it's time NZ faced up to the challenge of staying clean in today's rugby environment instead of a sort of shrugging acceptance that cards are part and parcel of the game.

With Cane and Savea both playing in Japan, the position is up for grabs and it will probably go to Barrett... but we are simply speculating and I'm happy to wait and see what he comes up with. I don't think he's going to pull any weird 'out of the box' type tricks, he's too mindful of respecting tradition.

[Gumboot]

Razor has referred to respecting the jersey and the position... unsurprisingly, he builds qualities into his teams and players. Based on that I think he'll want to stick with experience but I'd be happier if Barrett wasn't chosen, myself... the cards. Same with Cane... I want someone who can stay out of trouble. I know that's a big ask but I think it's time NZ faced up to the challenge of staying clean in today's rugby environment instead of a sort of shrugging acceptance that cards are part and parcel of the game.

With Cane and Savea both playing in Japan, the position is up for grabs and it will probably go to Barrett... but we are simply speculating and I'm happy to wait and see what he comes up with. I don't think he's going to pull any weird 'out of the box' type tricks, he's too mindful of respecting tradition.

I think Savea's going to be available after his stint in Japan. Wouldn't mind him as test skipper, either.

I just crunched the numbers, and Barrett has 2 reds and 2 yellows from 69 tests. Cane has 1 red and 4 yellows from 95 tests.

[Kiwias]

Watching some commentators talking about possible members of the ABs next year and several have mentioned Tuipulotu as a viable candidate. I just can't see it and expect Barrett has one position locked up and expect to see Lord and Vai'i as his partners. I wonder what others think.

[Gumboot]

Watching some commentators talking about possible members of the ABs next year and several have mentioned Tuipulotu as a viable candidate. I just can't see it and expect Barrett has one position locked up and expect to see Lord and Vai'i as his partners. I wonder what others think.

Totally agree. There's no way Tuipulotu should be given another chance after under-performing so often.

There are plenty of good young locks around, and I'm sure Razor will get the best out of them. Vaa'i and Lord of course, but Darry, Parkinson and Holland also look very promising.

Whitelock and Retallick was the best locking pair I've ever seen, mind.

[Kiwias]

Watching some commentators talking about possible members of the ABs next year and several have mentioned Tuipulotu as a viable candidate. I just can't see it and expect Barrett has one position locked up and expect to see Lord and Vai'i as his partners. I wonder what others think.

Totally agree. There's no way Tuipulotu should be given another chance after under-performing so often.

There are plenty of good young locks around, and I'm sure Razor will get the best out of them. Vaa'i and Lord of course, but Darry, Parkinson and Holland also look very promising.

Whitelock and Retallick was the best locking pair I've ever seen, mind.

I'd add Strange to the list of promising youngsters and agree totally on Whitelock/Retallick.

[Gumboot]

Yep, iirc Strange was selected at one stage, but got injured and hasn't been in the frame since.

[Ymx]

The future. Down to earth



My panties are wet

[Guy Smiley]

Apparently, Razor is already talking about opening up selection policy to include os based players.

In short, he can get fucked.

[Ymx]

That’s an odd call. It would kill off Supe for good with that. Unless it was greater than 50 caps criteria

The Richie Mo law

[OomStruisbaai]

That’s an odd call. It would kill off Supe for good with that. Unless it was greater than 50 caps criteria

The Richie Mo law

It won't kill off Soup. It will give young players a change to develope. More depth.

[Kiwias]

Apparently, Razor is already talking about opening up selection policy to include os based players.

In short, he can get fucked.

Not in favour of this at all.

[Gumboot]

Great to see (and feel) the buzz around Razor's arrival. I can't wait for his first squad selection in June. With so many veterans having departed, it'll be fascinating to see who he backs to form the core of the team over the next four years.

So many starting positions are now up for grabs that it's hard to know where to start. At least we have a reasonably settled, and mostly young, contingent of quality front-rowers. There's never been a better ABs locking duo than Whitelock and Retallick imho, but there's a wealth of talent coming through in that position so not too worried.

The loosies is an entirely different story. At least the magnificent Ardie will be there...don't really care if he wears 7 or 8. I suspect Cane will probably have to play his best Supe rugby ever to retain his spot, although I still think he's significantly better than Papali'i. Razor loves Cullen Grace, so expect him to be in the picture if he stays fit. I hope Finau gets another crack as well.

Halfback has to be Roigard, Shirley? Hope Fakatava can stay injury free and kick on, and really like the look of Ratima. Would be great to see Perenara putting the heat on again, as well. Christie...meh.

Would be great to hear others' thoughts on all the contenders, but I gotta get dinner sorted so will get back to the backs after that...

[Dan54]

Apparently, Razor is already talking about opening up selection policy to include os based players.

In short, he can get fucked.

[Gumboot]

Ten?

If Razor gets his man the argument's moot, but if NZR sticks to its guns then it looks like DMac supported by a local cast of youngsters including...? No idea, really. I've been impressed with Alex Harford the few times I've watched him, and was surprised he didn't get a Supe spot this year. His defence isn't great at times, but wonder if there's an off-field issue?

Midfield seems pretty settled, finally, but if Razor starts giving Havili more time at 12 I'll be worried.

The back three likewise. I'd be happy with a combo of Jordan at 15 and Narawa and Tele'a on the wings. And there will always be brilliant young wings emerging in our domestic game. It's a law of nature.

I can't imagine Razor wasting a place in his squad on Clarke. He's way too smart for that. Hopefully...

[Ymx]

Great to see (and feel) the buzz around Razor's arrival. I can't wait for his first squad selection in June. With so many veterans having departed, it'll be fascinating to see who he backs to form the core of the team over the next four years.

So many starting positions are now up for grabs that it's hard to know where to start. At least we have a reasonably settled, and mostly young, contingent of quality front-rowers. There's never been a better ABs locking duo than Whitelock and Retallick imho, but there's a wealth of talent coming through in that position so not too worried.

The loosies is an entirely different story. At least the magnificent Ardie will be there...don't really care if he wears 7 or 8. I suspect Cane will probably have to play his best Supe rugby ever to retain his spot, although I still think he's significantly better than Papali'i. Razor loves Cullen Grace, so expect him to be in the picture if he stays fit. I hope Finau gets another crack as well.

Halfback has to be Roigard, Shirley? Hope Fakatava can stay injury free and kick on, and really like the look of Ratima. Would be great to see Perenara putting the heat on again, as well. Christie...meh.

Would be great to hear others' thoughts on all the contenders, but I gotta get dinner sorted so will get back to the backs after that...

Pretty spot on.

Front row. Has anyone left/retired? I expect no change here.

Second row. Barrett of course, and Lord/Strange

Back row: I’m thinking Ardie (7), Papalii (6) and Grace.

Half back. It’s got to be Roigard. Fakatava I’m expecting to come good as well.

[Gumboot]

Front row. Has anyone left/retired? I expect no change here.

We've lost Coles and Laulala, but Taylor's the incumbent and I'm looking forward to the tyros like Aumua and Bell, and Samisoni of course, keeping hooker competitive.

We're stacked at prop right now. Last year's reboot was long overdue. Ofa may stick around for a bit longer, but I can't really see him contesting to start any more. I have faith in Jason Ryan getting the best out of a young new pack.

And those are just the names we already know!

I'm almost salivating at the prospect of a new dawn...

[Ymx]

For backs

12. Jordie
13. Ioane?
14. Telea
15. Jordan

I’m really not sure on 10/11. Is D-Mac still in NZ this year?

Unless it’s
11. Telea
14. Jordan
15. D-Mac

[Guy Smiley]

Some key spots for me that you've left open would be adding Blackadder to the mix for the backrow, alongside Grace and Ardie. He's been in the AB environment already so he's not a bolter and he offers versatility in that while he's a 6 first he can and has played 7.

Perofeta will be in the frame along with Zarn... while Perofeta might not command top billing, he's done enough to be included as a development type player while Zarn might be the sort of wild card player to flourish under Razor. There's always going to be room for one or two left field choices. I think Fergus Burke has to be included here as a development type as well... his improvement as a player has been steady and he's dealt with everything thrown at him so far.

I can't see Razor promoting Havili to the AB midfield other than as a fringe / reserve type. Not while he has Jordie already there and Tupaea working back from his injury and offering some serious grunt and speed.

I think Razor will pay a lot of heed to honouring the jersey and those who have already earned it, as opposed to throwing the established order out the window for wholesale change... that might be DMac's saving grace as he brings value to the team but in my view, from the bench. I can't see him being named as Razor's starting 10 outside of being a stop gap as others are brought in and developed.


The X factor in all of this though, is how Razor decides the team should play. Personnel will dictate style up to a point as players' capabilities can be limiting... but finding players capable of doing what he wants to try and achieve will be the really exciting thing to watch over the next 2-3 years.

[Gumboot]

I think it'll be DMac at 10 and Jordan at 15, at least initially.

Really like the prospect of Roigard and McKenzie running the cutter.