Shane Macgowan.....goooooone

[derriz]

Waltzing Matilda is based on a poem written by Banjo Patterson in 1895. It has a chequered history but there's little doubting that it became an unofficial anthem of Australia over the course of a century or so.

Yeah, but the song we were talking about only mentions the Waltzing Matilda song in passing

Aye... but it draws heavily on the original and I think it's fair to suggest it strives to join Patterson's original as a yearning sort of Australian anthem. The song speaks of 'setting sail for Gallipoli', a form of Holy Grail for Australian songwriters of a certain time.

I don't see that at all - it's a completely different song with a different setting, story, message, melody (except for a line of the chorus), etc. Bogle's song references Waltzing Matilda which as you say is/was considered an unofficial national anthem - but the purpose is to highlight how patriotism and patriotic songs are used to justify/glorify military action. It's no more based on Patterson's song than Tom Traubert's Blues is.

[Tichtheid]

Yeah, but the song we were talking about only mentions the Waltzing Matilda song in passing

Aye... but it draws heavily on the original and I think it's fair to suggest it strives to join Patterson's original as a yearning sort of Australian anthem. The song speaks of 'setting sail for Gallipoli', a form of Holy Grail for Australian songwriters of a certain time.

I don't see that at all - it's a completely different song with a different setting, story, message, melody (except for a line of the chorus), etc. Bogle's song references Waltzing Matilda which as you say is/was considered an unofficial national anthem - but the purpose is to highlight how patriotism and patriotic songs are used to justify/glorify military action. It's no more based on Patterson's song than Tom Traubert's Blues is.

Ah there we go. Tom Waits, one of my all time go-to musicians, my desert island disk choices would include work from Waits, from John Martyn, The Pogues, Dick Gaughan, Aretha Franklin, Nina Simone, SRV, Miles, Trane .. I'd probably best stop as I'll just list a whole load of musicians

[Guy Smiley]

I don't see that at all - it's a completely different song with a different setting, story, message, melody (except for a line of the chorus), etc. Bogle's song references Waltzing Matilda which as you say is/was considered an unofficial national anthem - but the purpose is to highlight how patriotism and patriotic songs are used to justify/glorify military action. It's no more based on Patterson's song than Tom Traubert's Blues is.

Well, there's me told. 33 years living in Australia and it took the Irish to educate me on Australian folklore.

How much to do a driveway?

[Tilly Orifice]

He wasted his talent! Just think what he might have achieved in writing and performing if he wasn't off his head on drugs and alcohol for almost all of his adult life. I just don't get the glorification and romanticizing of what are essentially addictions issues and the fun making of all the drug and drink cocktails he was pushing into his body. Sure he did some fantastic things when he was vaguely aware of what he was doing but there is no way on this earth did he get anywhere near close to achieving what he could have done if he wasn't an alcoholic drug addict. Sorry if my realism is upsetting a few folks but it's the truth. Let's not ignore the damage drink and drugs did on him and the limiting factor it had on him achieving what he could have done otherwise.

Well, pardon me but that's just patronising bullshit, not realism. You're throwing your personal values and judgement at someone's creative urge... we don't know what drives a particular person into the spirals of damage and self harm but we can appreciate the trip it takes us on... so many so called 'tortured artists' deliver us magnificent gems of human experience that would perhaps not be delivered without the removal of inhibition, often the product of trauma in itself.

The excesses are part and parcel of the person and their output. Whether you choose to focus on them or not is up to you. Perhaps a bit of empathy would go some way towards that.

Having had relatives who have succumbed to both alcohol and drug addiction I know exactly what I am talking about and, due to real life personal experience, I am more empathetic to addicts than most so don't give me that bullshit. Addiction meant neither of them achieved in their lives what they should have and along the way destroyed most of what they had previous achieved. It is not patronizing bullshit but the reality of addiction to harmful substances. To link 'creative urges' to the need to be addicted to drugs or alcohol is just complete and utter nonsense. 'Tortured artists' is just such a pile of bullshit, he was an alcoholic drug addict plain and simple and to try and suggest either of these substances helped him deliver work reflecting 'magnificent gems of human experience' is just a pile of romanticized uninformed crap. Yes he probably had mental health issues and they could well have been treated with help and support and possibly these led to his addictions, however we will never know. However this sort of romanticized nonsense that suggests to those more vulnerable that drugs and alcohol are in anyway 'good in releasing' the creative output is dangerous and probably leads some into addiction. Addiction is a serious health issue and needs to be seen and treated as such, it is not opening the box to someone's creative ability nor is it the deliverer of a 'tortured artist'. To suggest his addictions led to him doing work he wouldn't otherwise have done is again just plain bullshit and I stand by my assertion that all they did was limit his output and stopped him achieving his full potential!

Lets stop using euphemisms like 'bohemian', 'he lived life to the full', a 'tortured artist', 'played by his own rules', etc and making fun of his alcoholic cocktails and drug consumption - he was an alcoholic drug addict whose life ultimately was ruined and then ended early due to his addictions and whose innate musical and writing ability was limited by his consumption of alcohol and drugs.

The first part of that is reasonable, but you can't really say the second part. People are more complicated than that, and given McGowan's real achievements it's pretty reckless to assume that his work was dragged down by his addictions. Maybe a happy healthy McGowan would have vegetated. You can't say.

[derriz]

I don't see that at all - it's a completely different song with a different setting, story, message, melody (except for a line of the chorus), etc. Bogle's song references Waltzing Matilda which as you say is/was considered an unofficial national anthem - but the purpose is to highlight how patriotism and patriotic songs are used to justify/glorify military action. It's no more based on Patterson's song than Tom Traubert's Blues is.

Well, there's me told. 33 years living in Australia and it took the Irish to educate me on Australian folklore.

We can always quote the words of the guy who actually wrote the song:

I wrote it as an oblique comment on the Vietnam War which was in full swing... but while boys from Australia were dying there, people had hardly any idea where Vietnam was.

Surprise fucking surprise, an anti-war song written in 1971 about a soldier losing his legs in WW1 was NOT based on a 19th century song about stealing a sheep.

How much to do a driveway?

What a charmless and unoriginal quip.

[Uncle fester]

A sober macgowan might have been a suit wearing accountant instead!
You can't really separate his alcoholism from him as a person.

[derriz]

Ah there we go. Tom Waits, one of my all time go-to musicians, my desert island disk choices would include work from Waits, from John Martyn, The Pogues, Dick Gaughan, Aretha Franklin, Nina Simone, SRV, Miles, Trane .. I'd probably best stop as I'll just list a whole load of musicians

Nice list there - they're all represented in my CD collection except Dick Gaughan who I wasn't familiar with but I've been checking out on youtube - lovely stuff. Love that guitar style - which sounds like open tuning; Paul Brady used a similar style back in the day.

[Uncle fester]

Oh and Guy, poke derriz at your peril.

[Tichtheid]

Ah there we go. Tom Waits, one of my all time go-to musicians, my desert island disk choices would include work from Waits, from John Martyn, The Pogues, Dick Gaughan, Aretha Franklin, Nina Simone, SRV, Miles, Trane .. I'd probably best stop as I'll just list a whole load of musicians

Nice list there - they're all represented in my CD collection except Dick Gaughan who I wasn't familiar with but I've been checking out on youtube - lovely stuff. Love that guitar style - which sounds like open tuning; Paul Brady used a similar style back in the day.

I could do a very long list of just traditional/folky stuff too, it would certainly include that seminal Molloy, Brady, Peoples album among a heap of Scots and Irish material, a fair bit from England too. Which is kind of relevant here since Bogle is from similar territory and the Pogues were certainly using traditional music with a punk attitude.

[Uncle fester]

If you want an artist who was genuinely held back by struggles with their demons, look no further than Sinead O'Connor.

MacGowan is a different case.

[Tichtheid]

I remember standing side of stage at the concert in Dublin for Shane’s 60th birthday, and feeling kind of agitated and nervous about performing.
I was surrounded by all of these artists doing beautiful versions of Shane’s songs and, I don’t know, I guess I was also feeling a bit out of sorts that evening.
I saw Sinéad O’Connor standing slightly separate from everyone else, half hidden by the curtain, gazing at the floor, looking fierce and intense.
I didn’t really know Sinéad, I’d met her a few times here and there, and maybe chatted briefly with her, but I had always liked her uniqueness, her raging spirit, her disagreeableness, her beautifulness and, of course, her celestial voice.
Sinéad looked up and caught my eye, smiled, and walked over and hugged me. I’m not sure why, but I was terribly moved by her gesture. She was so warm and giving and kind in that moment. I was unaware quite how precious a moment it would turn out to be.
Before I could say anything to her, I was being ushered on to the stage to sing Shane’s song, ‘Summer in Siam’, with him. I think it was the penultimate song of the show, and it would be the first time that evening that Shane himself would take to the stage to perform.
I walked on and sang these most simple and poignant words –
When it's summer in Siam
And the moon is full of rainbows
When it's summer in Siam
Though we go through many changes
When it's summer in Siam
Then all I really know is that I truly am
In the summer in Siam
Shane’s wife, Victoria, then pushed Shane on in a wheelchair and, well, I know I should be talking about the pure unbridled genius of Shane MacGowan and how he was the greatest songwriter of his generation, with the most terrifyingly beautiful of voices — all of which is true — but what struck me at that moment was the extraordinary display of love for this man, so powerful and deep, that poured forth from the audience.
It was like nothing I’ve ever experienced, and in that instant it brought to mind the short poem by Raymond Carver —
And did you get what
you wanted from this life, even so?
I did.
And what did you want?
To call myself beloved, to feel myself
beloved on the earth.
Shane was not revered just for his manifold talents but also loved for himself alone. A beautiful and damaged man, who embodied a kind of purity and innocence and generosity and spiritual intelligence unlike any other.
Sinéad once said of Shane, ‘He is an angel. An actual angel’. Whether or not this is the case, who’s to say? But Shane was blessed with an uncommon spirit of goodness and a deep sense of what is true, which was strangely amplified in his brokenness, his humanness.
We can say of him most certainly, ‘he was beloved on the earth,’ and Sinéad too — truly beloved and greatly missed, both.”
Love, Nick Cave.

[derriz]

Oh and Guy, poke derriz at your peril.

Ah, I'm not that bad. This was a bizarre interaction - I respectfully disagreed with his claim that a song was based on another and the dickhead goes straight for a tarmac driveway gibe. Classy. Especially as his claim is obviously nonsense.

@Tichtheid - I read that Nick Cave piece - did you get it from https://www.theredhandfiles.com? There's great stuff on that site, well worth a browse. I've also been a Cave fan also for years - starting with The Birthday Party to Bad Seeds, solo stuff/collaborations to Grinderman - he's produced a remarkable and varied body of work. I admire the way he has evolved and the humanity of his recent writing.

[Guy Smiley]

Oh and Guy, poke derriz at your peril.

Ah, I'm not that bad. This was a bizarre interaction - I respectfully disagreed with his claim that a song was based on another and the dickhead goes straight for a tarmac driveway gibe. Classy. Especially as his claim is obviously nonsense.

@Tichtheid - I read that Nick Cave piece - did you get it from https://www.theredhandfiles.com? There's great stuff on that site, well worth a browse. I've also been a Cave fan also for years - starting with The Birthday Party to Bad Seeds, solo stuff/collaborations to Grinderman - he's produced a remarkable and varied body of work. I admire the way he has evolved and the humanity of his recent writing.

Dickhead?

Alright then, dickhead...

some comprehension for you. I said that Waltzing Matilda was based on Banjo Patterson's poem.... and that Eric Bogle's song And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda draws heavily on that. I didn't say it was based on it. Any familiarity with Australian colonial history and culture will tell you that, there are references to Waltzing Matilda sprinkled through Bogle's song. The phrase itself is a reference to carrying your swag ( a mobile camp) and Bogle's hero laments he will no longer be able to do that.

Blow that through your fucking Celtic fucking pipes.

[PornDog]

Dig up Guy!

[Guy Smiley]

Dig up Guy!