The Official English Rugby Thread

[SaintK]

I'm not quite sure how Barbeary's various indiscretions are going to add up here, from a citing perspective. He's in for a healthy ban, you'd expect, no matter which way it pans out.

Like many, I'm sure, I got a bit lost in the mitigation on the first yellow. I was initially watching with sound down and thought the ref may have given some leeway as Fickou made contact (although a tiny amount) with Barbeary just as he was setting for the tackle, but it appears the mitigation was to do with initial impact and amount of force. I thought it was pretty much full force and clearly high. I suspect the initla yellow will be upgraded in the citing, so the second yellow may just get lost in the wash.

(I ask all this a I thought you could only risk a ban for a yellow card offence if it was separately cited, whereas a red will always be reviewed by the panel? Is that correct?)

I didn't see the incidents.
Barbeary's got a pretty decent disciplinary record so should get some leeway when banned.

[sockwithaticket]

Barbeary's first should 100% have been a red.

There are occasionally some really glancing blows or soft soak hits that actually do fulfil "low force/danger", but 99% of the team refs are talking out of their arse and just not wanting to award a red.

I suspect that since he's gotten a red for two yellows, no one's going to bother citing and upgrading the first yellow.

[Raggs]

If they stay as 2 yellows, that's not going to be a significant ban. If the first one gets bumped to a red, then it'll be a bit more serious. I don't think the second one gets bumped as well.

[Lobby]

Barbeary's first should 100% have been a red.

There are occasionally some really glancing blows or soft soak hits that actually do fulfil "low force/danger", but 99% of the team refs are talking out of their arse and just not wanting to award a red.

I suspect that since he's gotten a red for two yellows, no one's going to bother citing and upgrading the first yellow.

The 'low force/danger' assessment often seems completely arbitrary to me. One instance I remember in particular involved Jess Breach in the Women's 6 Nations. She was smacked in the head (head on head collision) by an Ireland player attempting a tackle. There was no drop in height and no attempt by the tackler to get low. A clear and obvious red to anyone watching except the ref, who deemed it only worthy of a yellow for being 'low force'. Indeed, it was such a 'low force' impact that Breach had to go to hospital to have 15 stiches in a massive gash just above her eye!

[Tichtheid]

I've just seen them both very quickly, the first was a stone cold red for me, the second looked like a bit of a soft yellow - a player trying to hand off an opponent like that when they are so close often ends up with a forearm on the neck, but it's not like it's a clothesline move or anything, there's little force there.

This is just from the very short footage from the highlights package

[Ovals]

Barbeary's first should 100% have been a red.

There are occasionally some really glancing blows or soft soak hits that actually do fulfil "low force/danger", but 99% of the team refs are talking out of their arse and just not wanting to award a red.

I suspect that since he's gotten a red for two yellows, no one's going to bother citing and upgrading the first yellow.

Did the 'tackled' player go off for a HIA (1st card) - looked to me like he stayed on the pitch.

[sockwithaticket]

Can't remember tbh. I think I'm right in saying players get a preliminary assessment on the pitch from physios before deciding whether or not to take them off.

[JM2K6]

I thought both were reds and the second one looked pretty filthy, a forearm strike to the throat/jaw aiming very high.

Amazed at some of the decisions this weekends. Cokanasiga got smashed in the head on a disallowed try when defenders just threw themselves at him.

[Margin__Walker]

I thought both were reds and the second one looked pretty filthy, a forearm strike to the throat/jaw aiming very high.

Amazed at some of the decisions this weekends. Cokanasiga got smashed in the head on a disallowed try when defenders just threw themselves at him.

Welcome back JM

First one is interesting. Should absolutely be a red. Pre RWC they started waffling on about level of force and all of a sudden hits that were stone cold reds before were back down to yellows. They've definitely lifted the danger threshold for a high shot red.

[topofthemoon]

I'm not quite sure how Barbeary's various indiscretions are going to add up here, from a citing perspective. He's in for a healthy ban, you'd expect, no matter which way it pans out.

Like many, I'm sure, I got a bit lost in the mitigation on the first yellow. I was initially watching with sound down and thought the ref may have given some leeway as Fickou made contact (although a tiny amount) with Barbeary just as he was setting for the tackle, but it appears the mitigation was to do with initial impact and amount of force. I thought it was pretty much full force and clearly high. I suspect the initla yellow will be upgraded in the citing, so the second yellow may just get lost in the wash.

(I ask all this a I thought you could only risk a ban for a yellow card offence if it was separately cited, whereas a red will always be reviewed by the panel? Is that correct?)

Red after 2 yellows leads to a ban of 1 to 2 weeks, applied for persistent offending, rather than the specific yellow card offences themselves. A ban isn't normally applied if one of the yellows was for a technical offence or an accumulation of offences by the player's team.

[Tichtheid]

I've just had another look at the second Barbeary card. I played it through at quarter speed which always makes things look worse, but it does look bad - it's pretty much an elbow to the throat.

However, Le Garrec makes no attempt to lower his tackle height and he's absolutely upright when the contact occurs.

I'm now not sure what the right decision should be.

[inactionman]

I've just had another look at the second Barbeary card. I played it through at quarter speed which always makes things look worse, but it does look bad - it's pretty much an elbow to the throat.

However, Le Garrec makes no attempt to lower his tackle height and he's absolutely upright when the contact occurs.

I'm now not sure what the right decision should be.

The handoff/elbow just looked like two players closing at high speed and Barbeary being too slow to extend his arm for a fend -he'd just stood up from picking at the base of a scrum which isn't the best for immediate situational awareness. And, as noted, the tackler didn't exactly drop into the tackle so was wrapping around Barbeary's shoulders.

That doesn't make it any less dangerous, of course, but does go same way to explaining why it occurred.

I've still no idea how the mitigation was applied to the earlier high hit though.

[SaintK]

Barbeary cited for both cards. The low end entry point ban for both offences is two weeks
Greg Fisilau of Exeterr who was name checked by Borthwick has also been cited for his yellow card
Both being heard on WEdnesday
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/alfie-b ... ed-card/

[geordie_6]

Maybe a silly question but been pondering this - with England bringing back the A Team, will an A Team cap now be the “capture” cap, if that makes sense?

ie is there a possibility to lock in some of the young talent with an A Team cap?

In an article I saw recently about Feyi-Waboso it indicated that be would be tied to England if he played for England A against Portugal in Feb.

Based in that, yes, it looks as though we have designated the A team as our second capture team.

is the correct answer
I reckon Fin Smith will also play in that team to tie him to England

He may be on the bench for the first team of Ford's injury rules him out.

[Raggs]

Well we sort of new Feyi Wabaso (sp?) wasn't going to Wales, but we now also have confirmation that Fin Smith isn't with Scotland. Hopefully we've got ourselves a couple of decent players there.

[SaintK]

Telegraph saying that George will be named England captain and that Slade and LC-D recalled when the squad is announced tomorrow
Assuming that Dan is named 3rd hooker thgat will be a shame for Curtis Langdon who has been playing so well for Saints

[Hal Jordan]

Jamie George? Seriously?

[Ovals]

Jamie George? Seriously?

At least he might not consistently get on the wrong side of the ref like our previous skipper.

[sockwithaticket]

Telegraph saying that George will be named England captain and that Slade and LC-D recalled when the squad is announced tomorrow
Assuming that Dan is named 3rd hooker thgat will be a shame for Curtis Langdon who has been playing so well for Saints

I'm sure Borthwick is more of an evolution not revolution type of guy, but hopefully some other positions have had more of a refresh. After the last tournament most sides seemed to ring such chnages as were necessary in their first couple of years and then we, or rather Eddie, decided to do our refresh just when they were all getting settled again. It ultimately proved to be too late imo.

[Margin__Walker]

Squad's here

FORWARDS
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 107 caps)
Alex Coles (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale Sharks, 41 caps)
Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins, uncapped)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps)
Theo Dan (Saracens, 7 caps)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 15 caps)
Ben Earl (Saracens, 25 caps)
Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 58 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 85 caps) – captain
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 7 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 11 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 76 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 88 caps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Tom Pearson (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Ethan Roots (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 33 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 30 caps)

BACKS
Oscar Beard (Harlequins, uncapped)
Danny Care (Harlequins, 96 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 64 caps)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
George Ford (Sale Sharks, 91 caps)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 57 caps)
Fin Smith (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 30 caps)
Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps)

[Raggs]

Squad's here

FORWARDS
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 107 caps)
Alex Coles (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale Sharks, 41 caps)
Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins, uncapped)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps)
Theo Dan (Saracens, 7 caps)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 15 caps)
Ben Earl (Saracens, 25 caps)
Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 58 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 85 caps) – captain
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 7 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 11 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 76 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 88 caps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Tom Pearson (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Ethan Roots (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 33 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 30 caps)

BACKS
Oscar Beard (Harlequins, uncapped)
Danny Care (Harlequins, 96 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 64 caps)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
George Ford (Sale Sharks, 91 caps)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 57 caps)
Fin Smith (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 30 caps)
Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps)

Feels a bit 2 steps forward 1 step back in places. But overall, OK. Wonder how the A team will look.

[ASMO]

I think Barbeary deserved a go.

[inactionman]

Dan Cole is just immortal.

[Margin__Walker]

Dan Cole is just immortal.

For sure. Shows how desperate the situation is at TH in Eng. There just aren't any elite EQP options there and we are praying for one of the youngsters like Opoku-Fordjour to come through and take away the front row misery.

[Brazil]

Dan Cole is just immortal.

For sure. Shows how desperate the situation is at TH in Eng. There just aren't any elite EQP options there and we are praying for one of the youngsters like Opoku-Fordjour to come through and take away the front row misery.

Apparently the genius plan is to convert him to loosie.

The squads a bit of a curate's egg, potential for a very exciting side, but also the potential for stultifying dullness. Guess we'll see in the first selection.

I think Langdon can consider himself a bit unlucky, but there's still plenty of new blood in there.

[Raggs]

Is Dingwall the only 12 in the group?

Do we reckon we're crowbarring Lawrence and Slade in there?

Feels like there's some "senior" players there who are hopefully only there to be senior players in the training group. Daly for instance.

Just noticed no Martin, is he injured/banned? Quite surprised by that, he's seemed like a pretty good option. Not the most flair, but just a solid lump of workrate and impact.

[duke]

I assume George Martin is injured?

[inactionman]

I think Barbeary deserved a go.

The uncertainty around citing playing a part, no doubt. Without he red card you'd have thought he'd have been in.

[Margin__Walker]

Dan Cole is just immortal.

For sure. Shows how desperate the situation is at TH in Eng. There just aren't any elite EQP options there and we are praying for one of the youngsters like Opoku-Fordjour to come through and take away the front row misery.

Apparently the genius plan is to convert him to loosie.

The squads a bit of a curate's egg, potential for a very exciting side, but also the potential for stultifying dullness. Guess we'll see in the first selection.

I think Langdon can consider himself a bit unlucky, but there's still plenty of new blood in there.

TBF I doubt they are still looking to do that now and It's not like he hasn't played there before. That was a Sanderson quote from earlyish in his decent run of form. I'd only ever seen him play LH in the U20s before this season. Expect he'll be involved in the A setup, which should be interesting.

Langdon definitely losing out to LCD's credit in the bank there. Really unlucky

[Margin__Walker]

I assume George Martin is injured?

Yeah. Minor knee issue apparently. Hopefully wont keep him out of the whole thing.

[Paddington Bear]

That squad could in theory be really quite decent. It could also be highly mediocre. Inclined to give it time

[SaintK]

Dan Cole is just immortal.

For sure. Shows how desperate the situation is at TH in Eng. There just aren't any elite EQP options there and we are praying for one of the youngsters like Opoku-Fordjour to come through and take away the front row misery.

Apparently the genius plan is to convert him to loosie.

The squads a bit of a curate's egg, potential for a very exciting side, but also the potential for stultifying dullness. Guess we'll see in the first selection.

I think Langdon can consider himself a bit unlucky, but there's still plenty of new blood in there.

Very unlucky. He's playing better than both George and LC-D in the Prem. I guess the other two are more experienced
Coles and Isiekwe are very similar players and neithar have the grunt we need at lock
Ethan Roots is a penalty machine at Exeter and just doesn't look very good.

[sockwithaticket]

Is Dingwall the only 12 in the group?

Do we reckon we're crowbarring Lawrence and Slade in there?

Feels like there's some "senior" players there who are hopefully only there to be senior players in the training group. Daly for instance.

Just noticed no Martin, is he injured/banned? Quite surprised by that, he's seemed like a pretty good option. Not the most flair, but just a solid lump of workrate and impact.

This season Dingwall's only played 12 when Hutchinson isn't there, otherwise he plays 13. 4 starts at 12 vs. 8 at 13. I can't be bothered to review all of last season's fixtures too, but it felt like he played more at 13 then as well.

IHe's more of a 12 than perhaps the other two in terms of gaem time, but like most of our best centres, is primarily a 13.

[sockwithaticket]

What I'd like to see from that squad:

Marler, Dan, Stuart, Chessum, Itoje, Pearson, Earl, Dombrandt, Mitchell, Ford (M. Smith if injured), Freeman, Dingwall, Lawrence, Roebuck, Furbank

Obano, Cowan-Dickie, Heyes, Isiekwe, Coles, Care, F. Smith (get him capped!), Beard


What we'll probably see:

Genge, George, Cole, Chessum, Itoje, Roots (think Borthwick has a hard on for this guy), Curry, Earl, Mitchell, Ford, Daly, Lawrence, Slade, Roebuck, Steward

Marler, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Isiekwe, Coles, Spencer, M. Smith, Freeman


I suspect Coles is there more as a 6 than a lock.

[SaintK]

I assume George Martin is injured?

Yeah. Minor knee issue apparently. Hopefully wont keep him out of the whole thing.

I guess that Marler and Genge who are both also injured are further along the recovery path than Martin?
Edit:
Just seen this.

the rehabilitation list which features George Martin, Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Jack van Poortvliet and Raffi Quirke.

[inactionman]

I assume George Martin is injured?

Yeah. Minor knee issue apparently. Hopefully wont keep him out of the whole thing.

I guess that Marler and Genge who are both also injured are further along the recovery path than Martin?
Edit:
Just seen this.

the rehabilitation list which features George Martin, Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Jack van Poortvliet and Raffi Quirke.

I'd almost forgotten about van Poortvliet.

Where does he fit in now? I was a little underwhelmed by some of his performances(although that tended to be in a misfiring team) - is Mitchell and the likes of Spencer keeping his seat warm or have they overtaken him?

[SaintK]

Barbeary cited for both cards. The low end entry point ban for both offences is two weeks
Greg Fisilau of Exeterr who was name checked by Borthwick has also been cited for his yellow card
Both being heard on WEdnesday
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/alfie-b ... ed-card/

Fisilau cleared tpo play this morning
Barbeary up in front of the panel this afternoon

[Hal Jordan]

Yeah. Minor knee issue apparently. Hopefully wont keep him out of the whole thing.

I guess that Marler and Genge who are both also injured are further along the recovery path than Martin?
Edit:
Just seen this.

the rehabilitation list which features George Martin, Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Jack van Poortvliet and Raffi Quirke.

I'd almost forgotten about van Poortvliet.

Where does he fit in now? I was a little underwhelmed by some of his performances(although that tended to be in a misfiring team) - is Mitchell and the likes of Spencer keeping his seat warm or have they overtaken him?

He box kicks rhe leather off it and has a slow pass so he's a shoo in once he's fit, he would have been first choice in the RWC if not for the injury.

[Raggs]

JVP did fine in an England shirt before. Mitchell is in control in my mind. Spencer I'm hoping is there to mostly be an older reliable option should Mitchell get injured, I suspect Care on the bench more likely due to the relationship with Smith and Dombrandt.

[Raggs]

Just reading that Oscar Beard views himself/is viewed as a 13. Which is good, because we're struggling for 13s at the moment...