Not Heineken Cup 23/24

[TheNatalShark]

Sharks will top the combined pool. But the SA teams can't host semi finals.

Just something that was agreed? Seems odd.

[duke]

Bath come to Cape Town

Bath are travelling to Exeter according to BBC, Stormers have La Rochelle

[sturginho]

A good weekend for the Italians

[OomStruisbaai]

Bath come to Cape Town

Bath are travelling to Exeter according to BBC, Stormers have La Rochelle

Yep saw now. The group of death will knock each other out now.

[topofthemoon]

Sharks will top the combined pool. But the SA teams can't host semi finals.

The point about "The semi-finals will be played in Europe" is mentioned in the Champions Cup rules but not in the Challenge Cup rules, so it may be that the Sharks do get to have a home tie if they progress.

[TheNatalShark]

Sharks will top the combined pool. But the SA teams can't host semi finals.

The point about "The semi-finals will be played in Europe" is mentioned in the Champions Cup rules but not in the Challenge Cup rules, so it may be that the Sharks do get to have a home tie if they progress.

Something to do with sponsors/board wanting easy access for themselves/away fans?

[assfly]

Sharks struggling in the conditions

My power went out when it was 9-12, went to bed huffing and puffing at another loss.

Glad to see we ran in a few tries afterwards, you're welcome fans

But the first half we were poor, as usual. 10 man rugby. I didn't even hear Mapimpi's name in the first half.

[OomStruisbaai]

Sharks struggling in the conditions

My power went out when it was 9-12, went to bed huffing and puffing at another loss.

Glad to see we ran in a few tries afterwards, you're welcome fans

But the first half we were poor, as usual. 10 man rugby. I didn't even hear Mapimpi's name in the first half.

They struggled with the hockey astro and weather. Much better 2nd half when they start getting some phases together and dominate the 1st phases. Now they must win the Challenge Cup. Plain sailing from here. Also impressed with the fact that they played their best team despite having already qualified for home games before the match. That show commitment which is good to see.

[OomStruisbaai]

Sharks will top the combined pool. But the SA teams can't host semi finals.

The point about "The semi-finals will be played in Europe" is mentioned in the Champions Cup rules but not in the Challenge Cup rules, so it may be that the Sharks do get to have a home tie if they progress.

Something to do with sponsors/board wanting easy access for themselves/away fans?

Understand this is only for the Champions Cup. Sharks have it home until the final.

[assfly]

They struggled with the hockey astro and weather. Much better 2nd half when they start getting some phases together and dominate the 1st phases. Now they must win the Challenge Cup. Plain sailing from here. Also impressed with the fact that they played their best team despite having already qualified for home games before the match. That show commitment which is good to see.

True, that ball was skidding like crazy when we kicked. Which was a lot.

I don't think we'll win the Challenge Cup. There is still a lot of pedigree left in the comp. Having watched several of the Champions Cup games, we're still way off the pace.

But it was a good win, and I like to see them take this competition seriously, especially if URC is a complete vokop this year.

[OomStruisbaai]

They struggled with the hockey astro and weather. Much better 2nd half when they start getting some phases together and dominate the 1st phases. Now they must win the Challenge Cup. Plain sailing from here. Also impressed with the fact that they played their best team despite having already qualified for home games before the match. That show commitment which is good to see.

True, that ball was skidding like crazy when we kicked. Which was a lot.

I don't think we'll win the Challenge Cup. There is still a lot of pedigree left in the comp. Having watched several of the Champions Cup games, we're still way off the pace.

But it was a good win, and I like to see them take this competition seriously, especially if URC is a complete vokop this year.

If the Sharks win the Challenge Cup they will qualify for the Champions Cup next year. All to play for.

[bok_viking]

So if the Bulls manage to win their game to get to the QF and Munster wins theirs against Northampton, we will have back to back games against Munster at Loftus, one week in the champions cup and then the next week in the URC

[fishfoodie]

They struggled with the hockey astro and weather. Much better 2nd half when they start getting some phases together and dominate the 1st phases. Now they must win the Challenge Cup. Plain sailing from here. Also impressed with the fact that they played their best team despite having already qualified for home games before the match. That show commitment which is good to see.

True, that ball was skidding like crazy when we kicked. Which was a lot.

I don't think we'll win the Challenge Cup. There is still a lot of pedigree left in the comp. Having watched several of the Champions Cup games, we're still way off the pace.

But it was a good win, and I like to see them take this competition seriously, especially if URC is a complete vokop this year.

If the Sharks win the Challenge Cup they will qualify for the Champions Cup next year. All to play for.

Yeah !, I know people look down on the Challenge Cup, but if you string together a few good games at the end, you get same reward the equivalent of a top 8 position in the URC !

Just the experience of playing new teams, & different refs sets you up better for the future, when if you get into the Champions, you will face teams that play like the ones you met previously.

[Tichtheid]

True, that ball was skidding like crazy when we kicked. Which was a lot.

I don't think we'll win the Challenge Cup. There is still a lot of pedigree left in the comp. Having watched several of the Champions Cup games, we're still way off the pace.

But it was a good win, and I like to see them take this competition seriously, especially if URC is a complete vokop this year.

If the Sharks win the Challenge Cup they will qualify for the Champions Cup next year. All to play for.

Yeah !, I know people look down on the Challenge Cup, but if you string together a few good games at the end, you get same reward the equivalent of a top 8 position in the URC !

Just the experience of playing new teams, & different refs sets you up better for the future, when if you get into the Champions, you will face teams that play like the ones you met previously.

I should know this, and in fact I used to but the goal posts keep shifting. If a team from the URC wins the challenge cup, does that effectively mean an extra place in the champions cup for the URC? Say the Sharks finish top 8, but qualify from winning the cup, does that mean 9th in the URC gets a place in the CC? (the same for top 14 and premiership, obviously)

It used to be the case that if a team had already qualified via the league, then the other finalist from the challenge cup would go into the champions cup, I think.

[assfly]

I should know this, and in fact I used to but the goal posts keep shifting. If a team from the URC wins the challenge cup, does that effectively mean an extra place in the champions cup for the URC? Say the Sharks finish top 8, but qualify from winning the cup, does that mean 9th in the URC gets a place in the CC? (the same for top 14 and premiership, obviously)

It used to be the case that if a team had already qualified via the league, then the other finalist from the challenge cup would go into the champions cup, I think.

That was my understanding of it too.

[fishfoodie]

I should know this, and in fact I used to but the goal posts keep shifting. If a team from the URC wins the challenge cup, does that effectively mean an extra place in the champions cup for the URC? Say the Sharks finish top 8, but qualify from winning the cup, does that mean 9th in the URC gets a place in the CC? (the same for top 14 and premiership, obviously)

It used to be the case that if a team had already qualified via the league, then the other finalist from the challenge cup would go into the champions cup, I think.

That was my understanding of it too.

It was certainly the case a few years ago, because Connacht got bumped into the Champions Cup, because Leinster had won the Cup, & they automatically qualified, so Connacht got one of the automatic "Irish" places.

It's continually changing though, as the leagues themselves have changed, & the the Championship Competition has changed.

It's ironic that the Premiership teams used to bitch that the Irish had an easier time qualifying, because they could rest players, while the Premiership had relegation & no easy matches ....

I think the URC teams might now pick up that stick & return the beating, now that the URC is much tougher than the Premiership, & ask why a league with only 10 teams should get the same number of automatic spots as those with 16 or 14, & with two teams that are right offs ?

[OomStruisbaai]

I really enjoy this product, every match was tense from the start. Only one vokop and it change your whole format thinking forward. So be it as it is. The Stormers and Leinster played in the pool of death and now the Stormers end up playing tough matches La Rochelle and if they go through probably Leinster in the quarter final away. The easy way out is to complain about the format, fuck that, all the teams know every match from now on is tough. Getting the champs at home first up, so be it. No shame in losing to them but try and beat them with 1 point with a good effort. Thats all that matter.

[Ovals]

I should know this, and in fact I used to but the goal posts keep shifting. If a team from the URC wins the challenge cup, does that effectively mean an extra place in the champions cup for the URC? Say the Sharks finish top 8, but qualify from winning the cup, does that mean 9th in the URC gets a place in the CC? (the same for top 14 and premiership, obviously)

It used to be the case that if a team had already qualified via the league, then the other finalist from the challenge cup would go into the champions cup, I think.

That was my understanding of it too.

It was certainly the case a few years ago, because Connacht got bumped into the Champions Cup, because Leinster had won the Cup, & they automatically qualified, so Connacht got one of the automatic "Irish" places.

It's continually changing though, as the leagues themselves have changed, & the the Championship Competition has changed.

It's ironic that the Premiership teams used to bitch that the Irish had an easier time qualifying, because they could rest players, while the Premiership had relegation & no easy matches ....

I think the URC teams might now pick up that stick & return the beating, now that the URC is much tougher than the Premiership, & ask why a league with only 10 teams should get the same number of automatic spots as those with 16 or 14, & with two teams that are right offs ?

On the other hand - the Premiership still had the most qualifiers for the KO stage.

Premiership sides won 20 games, URC sides 14 !!

[sockwithaticket]

I should know this, and in fact I used to but the goal posts keep shifting. If a team from the URC wins the challenge cup, does that effectively mean an extra place in the champions cup for the URC? Say the Sharks finish top 8, but qualify from winning the cup, does that mean 9th in the URC gets a place in the CC? (the same for top 14 and premiership, obviously)

It used to be the case that if a team had already qualified via the league, then the other finalist from the challenge cup would go into the champions cup, I think.

That was my understanding of it too.

It was certainly the case a few years ago, because Connacht got bumped into the Champions Cup, because Leinster had won the Cup, & they automatically qualified, so Connacht got one of the automatic "Irish" places.

It's continually changing though, as the leagues themselves have changed, & the the Championship Competition has changed.

It's ironic that the Premiership teams used to bitch that the Irish had an easier time qualifying, because they could rest players, while the Premiership had relegation & no easy matches ....

I think the URC teams might now pick up that stick & return the beating, now that the URC is much tougher than the Premiership, & ask why a league with only 10 teams should get the same number of automatic spots as those with 16 or 14, & with two teams that are right offs ?

You have the Welsh and Italian sides. Our only true no-hopers internally are Newcastle.

[Tichtheid]

You have the Welsh and Italian sides. Our only true no-hopers internally are Newcastle.

Benetton are lying second in the league on the same number of wins as Leinster, they've just beaten Newcastle 57 -18 in Newcastle and Montpellier 27 - 19 in Treviso.

That sort of cohesion could serve Italy well in the 6N.

[sockwithaticket]

You have the Welsh and Italian sides. Our only true no-hopers internally are Newcastle.

Benetton are lying second in the league on the same number of wins as Leinster, they've just beaten Newcastle 57 -18 in Newcastle and Montpellier 27 - 19 in Treviso.

That sort of cohesion could serve Italy well in the 6N.

Eh, one swallow and all that. They finished 11th last season and 13th the season before that. I mainly keep up with the URC via the tope tier of Europe and they aren't present. I hope it bodes well for them, but it could be a fluke season. A few seasons ago Newcastle hit the playoffs out of absolutely nowhere and then followed it up with getting relegated.
Per our discussion the other day about the state of them, it's been difficult to consider results against Newcastle as any sort of indicator as to quality for a while now.

I was mainly just poking at the assertion that the URC is now a tougher comp than the Prem. It could well be, but I don't think it's as definitive as fishfoodie made it sound. Top14 has both competitions beat on that front anyway.

[fishfoodie]

You have the Welsh and Italian sides. Our only true no-hopers internally are Newcastle.

Benetton are lying second in the league on the same number of wins as Leinster, they've just beaten Newcastle 57 -18 in Newcastle and Montpellier 27 - 19 in Treviso.

That sort of cohesion could serve Italy well in the 6N.

Eh, one swallow and all that. They finished 11th last season and 13th the season before that. I mainly keep up with the URC via the tope tier of Europe and they aren't present. I hope it bodes well for them, but it could be a fluke season. A few seasons ago Newcastle hit the playoffs out of absolutely nowhere and then followed it up with getting relegated.
Per our discussion the other day about the state of them, it's been difficult to consider results against Newcastle as any sort of indicator as to quality for a while now.

I was mainly just poking at the assertion that the URC is now a tougher comp than the Prem. It could well be, but I don't think it's as definitive as fishfoodie made it sound. Top14 has both competitions beat on that front anyway.

Yeah, I know i'm tweaking the English guys nose a little, but the URC has become considerably tougher challenge since the saffers joined, & there's less talk about resting players beyond the IRFUs requirements, & I don't think it unreasonable that the other leagues ask why so many Premiership teams should get into the highest level European competition ?

[sockwithaticket]

Benetton are lying second in the league on the same number of wins as Leinster, they've just beaten Newcastle 57 -18 in Newcastle and Montpellier 27 - 19 in Treviso.

That sort of cohesion could serve Italy well in the 6N.

Eh, one swallow and all that. They finished 11th last season and 13th the season before that. I mainly keep up with the URC via the tope tier of Europe and they aren't present. I hope it bodes well for them, but it could be a fluke season. A few seasons ago Newcastle hit the playoffs out of absolutely nowhere and then followed it up with getting relegated.
Per our discussion the other day about the state of them, it's been difficult to consider results against Newcastle as any sort of indicator as to quality for a while now.

I was mainly just poking at the assertion that the URC is now a tougher comp than the Prem. It could well be, but I don't think it's as definitive as fishfoodie made it sound. Top14 has both competitions beat on that front anyway.

Yeah, I know i'm tweaking the English guys nose a little, but the URC has become considerably tougher challenge since the saffers joined, & there's less talk about resting players beyond the IRFUs requirements, & I don't think it unreasonable that the other leagues ask why so many Premiership teams should get into the highest level European competition ?

Certainly going forwards it's a fair question. Although it didn't last long, the Prem started out 22/23 at 13 teams and I think it was fair for teams to finish the season under the same regs as they started it - i.e. the top 8 go to Europe.

I'm really not fussed about fewer English teams competing in the top tier, we can go back to dominating the Challenge Cup like in the olden days and earn extra spots that way

[Tichtheid]

You have the Welsh and Italian sides. Our only true no-hopers internally are Newcastle.

Benetton are lying second in the league on the same number of wins as Leinster, they've just beaten Newcastle 57 -18 in Newcastle and Montpellier 27 - 19 in Treviso.

That sort of cohesion could serve Italy well in the 6N.

Eh, one swallow and all that. They finished 11th last season and 13th the season before that. I mainly keep up with the URC via the tope tier of Europe and they aren't present. I hope it bodes well for them, but it could be a fluke season. A few seasons ago Newcastle hit the playoffs out of absolutely nowhere and then followed it up with getting relegated.
Per our discussion the other day about the state of them, it's been difficult to consider results against Newcastle as any sort of indicator as to quality for a while now.

I was mainly just poking at the assertion that the URC is now a tougher comp than the Prem. It could well be, but I don't think it's as definitive as fishfoodie made it sound. Top14 has both competitions beat on that front anyway.

I think that the URC is possibly stronger at the top and and weaker at the bottom end than the premiership - although Toulouse, Bordeaux and La Rochelle look very strong contenders, it would take a brave punter to bet against Leinster or the Stormers for the Not-Heine.
At the moment I can't see a winner from England, but I enjoy how Saints go about things, Quins too for that matter.

otoh, I think the dive below mediocrity from the Welsh regions and the continued poor showing from Zebra isn't replicated in the GP, or not nearly to the same extent.

Unfortunately, for a team packed full of decent internationals Edinburgh continue to be less than the sum of the parts.

[Ovals]

Benetton are lying second in the league on the same number of wins as Leinster, they've just beaten Newcastle 57 -18 in Newcastle and Montpellier 27 - 19 in Treviso.

That sort of cohesion could serve Italy well in the 6N.

Eh, one swallow and all that. They finished 11th last season and 13th the season before that. I mainly keep up with the URC via the tope tier of Europe and they aren't present. I hope it bodes well for them, but it could be a fluke season. A few seasons ago Newcastle hit the playoffs out of absolutely nowhere and then followed it up with getting relegated.
Per our discussion the other day about the state of them, it's been difficult to consider results against Newcastle as any sort of indicator as to quality for a while now.

I was mainly just poking at the assertion that the URC is now a tougher comp than the Prem. It could well be, but I don't think it's as definitive as fishfoodie made it sound. Top14 has both competitions beat on that front anyway.

I think that the URC is possibly stronger at the top and and weaker at the bottom end than the premiership - although Toulouse, Bordeaux and La Rochelle look very strong contenders, it would take a brave punter to bet against Leinster or the Stormers for the Not-Heine.
At the moment I can't see a winner from England, but I enjoy how Saints go about things, Quins too for that matter.

otoh, I think the dive below mediocrity from the Welsh regions and the continued poor showing from Zebra isn't replicated in the GP, or not nearly to the same extent.

Unfortunately, for a team packed full of decent internationals Edinburgh continue to be less than the sum of the parts.

URC 3rd, 4th placed sides just got knocked out in the pool stages. It's only Leinster really that stand out.

[Tichtheid]

Eh, one swallow and all that. They finished 11th last season and 13th the season before that. I mainly keep up with the URC via the tope tier of Europe and they aren't present. I hope it bodes well for them, but it could be a fluke season. A few seasons ago Newcastle hit the playoffs out of absolutely nowhere and then followed it up with getting relegated.
Per our discussion the other day about the state of them, it's been difficult to consider results against Newcastle as any sort of indicator as to quality for a while now.

I was mainly just poking at the assertion that the URC is now a tougher comp than the Prem. It could well be, but I don't think it's as definitive as fishfoodie made it sound. Top14 has both competitions beat on that front anyway.

I think that the URC is possibly stronger at the top and and weaker at the bottom end than the premiership - although Toulouse, Bordeaux and La Rochelle look very strong contenders, it would take a brave punter to bet against Leinster or the Stormers for the Not-Heine.
At the moment I can't see a winner from England, but I enjoy how Saints go about things, Quins too for that matter.

otoh, I think the dive below mediocrity from the Welsh regions and the continued poor showing from Zebra isn't replicated in the GP, or not nearly to the same extent.

Unfortunately, for a team packed full of decent internationals Edinburgh continue to be less than the sum of the parts.

URC 3rd, 4th placed sides just got knocked out in the pool stages. It's only Leinster really that stand out.

Glasgow play Quins in the "round of 16", Ulster are a weird team this season.

The Stormers have got La Roch at home and the Bulls have Lyon - I haven't seen Lyon play this season but from those three fixtures there are no certain winners

[JM2K6]

A couple of sides in the URC were doing all the heavy lifting in Europe before the Saffas were included. Hell, why not add the Kiwis and Aussies? That way you can demand only one premiership side qualifies

[Tichtheid]

A couple of sides in the URC were doing all the heavy lifting in Europe before the Saffas were included

It's been that way for each of the three leagues hasn't it? Toulouse then Toulon, now La Rochelle. Sarries carried the flag for England for a long time, Leicester before that.

[Ovals]

A couple of sides in the URC were doing all the heavy lifting in Europe before the Saffas were included

It's been that way for each of the three leagues hasn't it? Toulouse then Toulon, now La Rochelle. Sarries carried the flag for England for a long time, Leicester before that.

Leinster have pretty well dominated it from a URC perspective with 7 finals and 4 wins since 08/09 - been shared around more in the other leagues.

[OomStruisbaai]

Havent watch all the matches but was impressed with Bath's effort yesterday against Toulouse.

[Ovals]

Havent watch all the matches but was impressed with Bath's effort yesterday against Toulouse.

Bath have been much improved this season. They and Northampton have looked far better than last year.

[Tichtheid]

A couple of sides in the URC were doing all the heavy lifting in Europe before the Saffas were included

It's been that way for each of the three leagues hasn't it? Toulouse then Toulon, now La Rochelle. Sarries carried the flag for England for a long time, Leicester before that.

Leinster have pretty well dominated it from a URC perspective with 7 finals and 4 wins since 08/09 - been shared around more in the other leagues.

The topic was European rather than domestic rugby, but in the time frame you chose there have been seven different winners of what is now the URC compared to five different winners in England, eight in France. (quick shufty, I may be one or two out in my counts, but not many)


edit - apologies, I misread your post, I now realise you were indeed talking about European finals, not domestic winners

[fishfoodie]

How about this for a proposal.

Right now we have 40 teams between the GP, T14, & URC, so logically you want two Cups with 20 teams in each, 4 groups of 5 like the preferred format Pre-Covid.

For the Champions; you have two automatic qualifiers, last years winner, & the winner of the Challenge; then you add the top 5 from the PR, the top 6 from the T14 & the top 7 from the URC. This makes it really worth winning the Challenge, which is exactly what it needs.

Obviously the other 20 clubs go into the Challenge.

Every year the French clubs throw out scratch sides in the Champions, so I'd hope they don't object to losing a team.

[Ovals]

How about this for a proposal.

Right now we have 40 teams between the GP, T14, & URC, so logically you want two Cups with 20 teams in each, 4 groups of 5 like the preferred format Pre-Covid.

For the Champions; you have two automatic qualifiers, last years winner, & the winner of the Challenge; then you add the top 5 from the PR, the top 6 from the T14 & the top 7 from the URC. This makes it really worth winning the Challenge, which is exactly what it needs.

Obviously the other 20 clubs go into the Challenge.

Every year the French clubs throw out scratch sides in the Champions, so I'd hope they don't object to losing a team.

I could live with that - albeit I don't see how the performance of the URC teams warrants 2 more places than the Premiership. You could allocate the number of teams based on performance in the previous cup - isn't that how Soccer does it ?

The snag with 4 x 5 is that it'd be a lot more games if they play home and away.

[sockwithaticket]

Havent watch all the matches but was impressed with Bath's effort yesterday against Toulouse.

Bath have been much improved this season. They and Northampton have looked far better than last year.

Saints woes in Europe aside, they looked good last season, but could be got at. They seem to have sorted out their defence and general mettle now an are reaping the benefit.

Last season it was clear that Van Graan had stabilised Bath and dragged them up from being straight trash, but I don't think many expected the extent of the further improvement they've shown so far this season.

[JM2K6]

A couple of sides in the URC were doing all the heavy lifting in Europe before the Saffas were included

It's been that way for each of the three leagues hasn't it? Toulouse then Toulon, now La Rochelle. Sarries carried the flag for England for a long time, Leicester before that.

Slightly ignoring the fact that Wasps won it twice more recently than Tigers, Exeter won it more recently than Saracens, and Bath and Saints both picked up a win in the early days. We've also had five losing finalists and quite a number of semi finalists.

How many URC sides have made finals and semi finals in the last 20 years?

Even in the champions cup era it's four English wins from two teams vs one Leinster win & 3 Leinster lossesfor the URC amid a heap of French representation.

[Tichtheid]

A couple of sides in the URC were doing all the heavy lifting in Europe before the Saffas were included

It's been that way for each of the three leagues hasn't it? Toulouse then Toulon, now La Rochelle. Sarries carried the flag for England for a long time, Leicester before that.

Slightly ignoring the fact that Wasps won it twice more recently than Tigers, Exeter won it more recently than Saracens, and Bath and Saints both picked up a win in the early days. We've also had five losing finalists and quite a number of semi finalists.

How many URC sides have made finals and semi finals in the last 20 years?

Even in the champions cup era it's four English wins from two teams vs one Leinster win & 3 Leinster lossesfor the URC amid a heap of French representation.

Munster have had a couple of wins within that timeframe, two finals just outside it. Ulster runner up within that time and winner before it, going back further, Cardiff have won it.

For the avoidance of any doubt, I'm not arguing the superiority of one league above another, I enjoy both the Premiership and the URC, the Top 14 can be a bit hard going at times, but there is no doubting the strengths of their teams, especially in the top half of their league.

[fishfoodie]

How about this for a proposal.

Right now we have 40 teams between the GP, T14, & URC, so logically you want two Cups with 20 teams in each, 4 groups of 5 like the preferred format Pre-Covid.

For the Champions; you have two automatic qualifiers, last years winner, & the winner of the Challenge; then you add the top 5 from the PR, the top 6 from the T14 & the top 7 from the URC. This makes it really worth winning the Challenge, which is exactly what it needs.

Obviously the other 20 clubs go into the Challenge.

Every year the French clubs throw out scratch sides in the Champions, so I'd hope they don't object to losing a team.

I could live with that - albeit I don't see how the performance of the URC teams warrants 2 more places than the Premiership. You could allocate the number of teams based on performance in the previous cup - isn't that how Soccer does it ?

The snag with 4 x 5 is that it'd be a lot more games if they play home and away.

I think it's more that for the Premiership, they'd, at a minimum have 50% of the teams qualifying automatically, which is a higher percentage than the other two leagues. With the current situation 80% of the Premiership walk in, & that doesn't feel right to me, but it is very hard to judge if 8th in the Premiership, is the same as 8th in the T14 or URC

Using the previous seasons results is a good idea, but I'm not sure how it'd work

[Ovals]

How about this for a proposal.

Right now we have 40 teams between the GP, T14, & URC, so logically you want two Cups with 20 teams in each, 4 groups of 5 like the preferred format Pre-Covid.

For the Champions; you have two automatic qualifiers, last years winner, & the winner of the Challenge; then you add the top 5 from the PR, the top 6 from the T14 & the top 7 from the URC. This makes it really worth winning the Challenge, which is exactly what it needs.

Obviously the other 20 clubs go into the Challenge.

Every year the French clubs throw out scratch sides in the Champions, so I'd hope they don't object to losing a team.

I could live with that - albeit I don't see how the performance of the URC teams warrants 2 more places than the Premiership. You could allocate the number of teams based on performance in the previous cup - isn't that how Soccer does it ?

The snag with 4 x 5 is that it'd be a lot more games if they play home and away.

I think it's more that for the Premiership, they'd, at a minimum have 50% of the teams qualifying automatically, which is a higher percentage than the other two leagues. With the current situation 80% of the Premiership walk in, & that doesn't feel right to me, but it is very hard to judge if 8th in the Premiership, is the same as 8th in the T14 or URC

Using the previous seasons results is a good idea, but I'm not sure how it'd work

I don't think % of sides is the right measure - otherwise we could just chuck in some crappy Championship sides and automatically get more CC reps/

[Ovals]

It's been that way for each of the three leagues hasn't it? Toulouse then Toulon, now La Rochelle. Sarries carried the flag for England for a long time, Leicester before that.

Slightly ignoring the fact that Wasps won it twice more recently than Tigers, Exeter won it more recently than Saracens, and Bath and Saints both picked up a win in the early days. We've also had five losing finalists and quite a number of semi finalists.

How many URC sides have made finals and semi finals in the last 20 years?

Even in the champions cup era it's four English wins from two teams vs one Leinster win & 3 Leinster lossesfor the URC amid a heap of French representation.

Munster have had a couple of wins within that timeframe, two finals just outside it. Ulster runner up within that time and winner before it, going back further, Cardiff have won it.

For the avoidance of any doubt, I'm not arguing the superiority of one league above another, I enjoy both the Premiership and the URC, the Top 14 can be a bit hard going at times, but there is no doubting the strengths of their teams, especially in the top half of their league.

Cardiff have never won it - got to the final - in the year there were no English clubs ( I think).