Best Player Poachers In The 6N

[Jim Lahey]

Who's had the most success?

I'll be biased here and say Ireland. We currently have JGP, Bundee O'Aki, Lowe and Mack, all of whom are top quality operators. In the past Jared Payne did a great job post BOD.

England have been pretty poor. Lots of dross. Dylan Hartley the pick of the bunch, but struggling to think of anyone else decent in recent memory.

Wales similar enough story, although I don't think they have had too many in recent times. Anscombe doesn't seem to have worked out given the amount of injuries he's had.

Hard to call Scotland. Given how many there have been and the current trajectory of the team, its fair to say they have improved the side. But still waiting for that 6N success so jury is out.

Italy, shite. They've always had a fair amount, and they have always been fairly shite.

France, apart from Willemse are there any other current ones? He is usually decent, apart from his disaster at the weekend tbf.

[Raggs]

Who's had the most success?

I'll be biased here and say Ireland. We currently have JGP, Bundee O'Aki, Lowe and Mack, all of whom are top quality operators. In the past Jared Payne did a great job post BOD.

England have been pretty poor. Lots of dross. Dylan Hartley the pick of the bunch, but struggling to think of anyone else decent in recent memory.

Wales similar enough story, although I don't think they have had too many in recent times. Anscombe doesn't seem to have worked out given the amount of injuries he's had.

Hard to call Scotland. Given how many there have been and the current trajectory of the team, its fair to say they have improved the side. But still waiting for that 6N success so jury is out.

Italy, shite. They've always had a fair amount, and they have always been fairly shite.

France, apart from Willemse are there any other current ones? He is usually decent, apart from his disaster at the weekend tbf.

How are we classing a poach? Residency only? Or are we going to try and argue grandparents/grew up somewhere etc?

[Ymx]

How about we call a poach someone who was not born in country or go through school of country.

18 years old, were they in the country they are now playing in.

[Jim Lahey]

Fair points.

An actual poach in my definition are cases when the union actively pursues someone from another country to play for one of their domestic sides. I would include the Granny/Mummy rule. So for me this includes the likes of Mack Hansen, Brad Shields (remember him ), Ben Healy etc., but also the longer term poaches like Jared Payne, Aki, Lowe, the Saffer contingent in the Scottish team, guys like Iaone for Italy etc.

Before I get shouted down for highlighting Mummy rule examples like Hansen, Shields and Healy, all 3 of those lads were all developed outside their adopted countries, and all moved because they couldn't get an international cap at home.

I'll go with YMX's definition.

[sockwithaticket]

England are crap at poaching. Particularly over the last 10 - 15 years. We don't poach very often and when we do it's often players like Mouritz Botha and Willi Heinz who aren't really any better than other homegrown players

[Jim Lahey]

England are crap at poaching. Particularly over the last 10 - 15 years. We don't poach very often and when we do it's often players like Mouritz Botha and Willi Heinz who aren't really any better than other homegrown players

Who was the big ex rugby league lad that played for Gloucester, scored 5 or 6 tries on his England debut against some duffer side, the media went wild for him, and then he disappeared? Mid-naughties.

Also, remember Stuart Barnes wanking himself silly over Mark Van Gisbergen becoming EQ around 2006? Good player for Wasps tbf, but can't recall him doing much in an England jersey.

[Paddington Bear]

Everyone knows the definition of poaching varies depending on whether it is your team doing it or not, come on people

[sockwithaticket]

Fair points.

An actual poach in my definition are cases when the union actively pursues someone from another country to play for one of their domestic sides. I would include the Granny/Mummy rule. So for me this includes the likes of Mack Hansen, Brad Shields (remember him ), Ben Healy etc., but also the longer term poaches like Jared Payne, Aki, Lowe, the Saffer contingent in the Scottish team, guys like Iaone for Italy etc.

Before I get shouted down for highlighting Mummy rule examples like Hansen, Shields and Healy, all 3 of those lads were all developed outside their adopted countries, and all moved because they couldn't get an international cap at home.

I'll go with YMX's definition.

You need to edit Shields out then. He personally may have come over with some ambitions of playing internationally given his parentage, but he signed for Wasps without any input from the RFU.

[Jim Lahey]

Everyone knows the definition of poaching varies depending on whether it is your team doing it or not, come on people

I like to think I've been fair and balanced in my calling out the shameless Irish poaching in my posts.

[PornDog]

France, apart from Willemse are there any other current ones? He is usually decent, apart from his disaster at the weekend tbf.

Uini Atonio says hi

I assume all of their Polynesian second rows are actually French Polynesian fellas instead of actual poaches?

And with the above definition you definitely have to add Bealham and Herring to the best Irish poaches - quality players.

[Jim Lahey]

Fair points.

An actual poach in my definition are cases when the union actively pursues someone from another country to play for one of their domestic sides. I would include the Granny/Mummy rule. So for me this includes the likes of Mack Hansen, Brad Shields (remember him ), Ben Healy etc., but also the longer term poaches like Jared Payne, Aki, Lowe, the Saffer contingent in the Scottish team, guys like Iaone for Italy etc.

Before I get shouted down for highlighting Mummy rule examples like Hansen, Shields and Healy, all 3 of those lads were all developed outside their adopted countries, and all moved because they couldn't get an international cap at home.

I'll go with YMX's definition.

You need to edit Shields out then. He personally may have come over with some ambitions of playing internationally given his parentage, but he signed for Wasps without any input from the RFU.

Lets not quibble too much over wording of definitions.
Brad Shields most certainly falls into the poach category. The media were talking it up for months before he moved.

[sockwithaticket]

England are crap at poaching. Particularly over the last 10 - 15 years. We don't poach very often and when we do it's often players like Mouritz Botha and Willi Heinz who aren't really any better than other homegrown players

Who was the big ex rugby league lad that played for Gloucester, scored 5 or 6 tries on his England debut against some duffer side, the media went wild for him, and then he disappeared? Mid-naughties.

Also, remember Stuart Barnes wanking himself silly over Mark Van Gisbergen becoming EQ around 2006? Good player for Wasps tbf, but can't recall him doing much in an England jersey.

Lesley 'the Volcano' Vainikolo. More Mt. Kilimanjaro than Reykjanes. He had a fairly solid Glaws career, but another handful of caps squandered at international level on a mediocre league convert for England.

[sockwithaticket]

Fair points.

An actual poach in my definition are cases when the union actively pursues someone from another country to play for one of their domestic sides. I would include the Granny/Mummy rule. So for me this includes the likes of Mack Hansen, Brad Shields (remember him ), Ben Healy etc., but also the longer term poaches like Jared Payne, Aki, Lowe, the Saffer contingent in the Scottish team, guys like Iaone for Italy etc.

Before I get shouted down for highlighting Mummy rule examples like Hansen, Shields and Healy, all 3 of those lads were all developed outside their adopted countries, and all moved because they couldn't get an international cap at home.

I'll go with YMX's definition.

You need to edit Shields out then. He personally may have come over with some ambitions of playing internationally given his parentage, but he signed for Wasps without any input from the RFU.

Lets not quibble too much over wording of definitions.
Brad Shields most certainly falls into the poach category. The media were talking it up for months before he moved.

I'm happy to include him, I just see it said all too often (not necessarily here) that the RFU actively solicit poaches when they don't and never have. The only time was Sam Burgess and he's English through and through.

[Jim Lahey]

Forgot about CJ Stander for Ireland. Another quality poach.

We've also had some success with "minor" poaches like Rob Herring and Jean Kleyn. Not exactly superstars but good solid additions to the squad.

[sockwithaticket]

France, apart from Willemse are there any other current ones? He is usually decent, apart from his disaster at the weekend tbf.

Uini Atonio says hi

I assume all of their Polynesian second rows are actually French Polynesian fellas instead of actual poaches?

And with the above definition you definitely have to add Bealham and Herring to the best Irish poaches - quality players.

Vahaamahina and Taofifénua are both of Wallisian origin. Tao was actually born in France.

Moefana and Mauvaka are both from new Caledonia.

[Tichtheid]

Fair points.

An actual poach in my definition are cases when the union actively pursues someone from another country to play for one of their domestic sides. I would include the Granny/Mummy rule. So for me this includes the likes of Mack Hansen, Brad Shields (remember him ), Ben Healy etc., but also the longer term poaches like Jared Payne, Aki, Lowe, the Saffer contingent in the Scottish team, guys like Iaone for Italy etc.

Before I get shouted down for highlighting Mummy rule examples like Hansen, Shields and Healy, all 3 of those lads were all developed outside their adopted countries, and all moved because they couldn't get an international cap at home.

I'll go with YMX's definition.

IIRC the Japanese rugby union specifically target Tongan and other PI islander kids and offer them schooling and jobs for parents. Under that definition these kids would not be "poaches"

It's pretty meaningless term in my view - the diaspora from particular countries end up in certain places - you only have to look at the place names in New Zealand's South Island to see that. New Zealand is also a destination for people from the PIs to give their families a better start than they thought they would have if they had stayed where they were, so the children coming up through the system there do not count as poaches, but someone like Ben White qualifies because his grandfather made the move from Scotland

I'm not against someone moving to another country for work or education and often you end up staying there - I did just that, first to France and then to England. As long as the laws/guideance is being followed then I see no problem with it.

I could see Schoeman getting on the plane to Oz for the Lions, Duhan Van der Merwe will be a double Lion barring injuries, Tuipolotu is a fair bet, as is Huw Jones - not a bad return with a fair while to go before selection

[Yr Alban]

I think that the real question has to be ‘was the country you represent your first choice?’ There are a number of recent Scotland players who get counted as poaches because they weren’t Scottish born, but clearly grew up thinking of themselves as Scottish and would always have chosen Scotland. I’m thinking Hamish Watson, John Barclay (born in Hong Kong), Ryan Wilson and Ewen Ashman. On the other hand, nobody’s claiming that DVDM or Jack Dempsey grew up wanting to represent us.

[inactionman]

You need to edit Shields out then. He personally may have come over with some ambitions of playing internationally given his parentage, but he signed for Wasps without any input from the RFU.

Lets not quibble too much over wording of definitions.
Brad Shields most certainly falls into the poach category. The media were talking it up for months before he moved.

I'm happy to include him, I just see it said all too often (not necessarily here) that the RFU actively solicit poaches when they don't and never have. The only time was Sam Burgess and he's English through and through.

Yep.

To give other examples, players like Shontayne Hape and Riki Flutey opted to move to England (and cross codes in Hape's case), rather than being enticed by the RFU. Both were decent enough for England (Flutey got a lions cap) although neither stuck very long and Hape's form fell off steeply towards the end (maybe related to the horrific concussion issues he's sadly suffering). He ultimately lost his place to Tuilagi. Denny Solomona is another who crossed codes, definitely with a cap or two in mind, but not directly solicited by the RFU. Ben Te'o crossed code to Leinster first.

There's a few more poaches you could list (if we mean players who started rugby careers elsewhere but moved over to England and ultimately represented England), but they were picked after decent club form in English teams - Nathan Hughes, Dave Ribbans in recent years, and I'm sure there's more if we go back.

Although there are decent players in there, none have been particularly stellar. England generally have the lowest quota of non-English born players in the 6N.

There's a comprehensive listing here, for the last 7 years, if anyone interested:
https://www.americasrugbynews.com/2023/ ... x-nations/

Probably worth noting that the above list makes a useful distinction between players simply born overseas (Bevan Rodd, Marcus Smith for example) and those who trained overseas (Ribbans is the sole England example for 2023)

[PornDog]

France, apart from Willemse are there any other current ones? He is usually decent, apart from his disaster at the weekend tbf.

Uini Atonio says hi

I assume all of their Polynesian second rows are actually French Polynesian fellas instead of actual poaches?

And with the above definition you definitely have to add Bealham and Herring to the best Irish poaches - quality players.

Vahaamahina and Taofifénua are both of Wallisian origin. Tao was actually born in France.

Moefana and Mauvaka are both from new Caledonia.

I thought that would be the case all right

[petej]

What about Scottish 9 Ben White? I would consider him a poach. Born England, educated England, represented england at all youth teams, played for English clubs followed by toulon. Qualified for Scotland by ancestry (grandparent).

[Sandstorm]

Taulupe Faletau, fine Welshman.

[Jim Lahey]

What about Scottish 9 Ben White? I would consider him a poach. Born England, educated England, represented england at all youth teams, played for English clubs followed by toulon. Qualified for Scotland by ancestry (grandparent).

I can't be arsed counting but I'd imagine that the Scots are comfortably out in front in terms of volume of poaches in the last 5 years. And a lot of them have been good quality poaches in fairness. But they seem to be lacking a few more nasty bastard front 5 forwards to make them a top side. Need to start searching the Saffer private school registers for some MacDonald's.

Ireland need to replenish their poach stocks. Don't think JGP, Bundee and Herring will make 2027, and its a few years lead time before poaches can qualify.

[weegie01]

How about we call a poach someone who was not born in country or go through school of country.

18 years old, were they in the country they are now playing in.

So every Northern Irish player who plays for Ireland is a poach as Northern Ireland is part of a different country to Ireland. And no Welsh, Scottish, English or Northern Irish person can be a poach for any of the other UK teams as it is all one country.

That is how daft this debate is. As there are four international rugby teams in these islands and we pretend as if they fit internationally recognised boundaries, are sovereign nations in their own right, operate as distinct economies etc. So we get the ridiculous situation of some people calling the children of people who move within the same country for work purposes, but whose children identify with and play for their original nation poaches.

There are plenty of people born and brought up in England who never consider themselves anything but Scots. Then of course there are the likes of Fin Smith who has two Scottish parents, whose grandfather was a Scottish Lion, but who always aligned with England. Scotland / England is just not the same as, for example, South Africa / France, and trying to apply the same definitions to both does not work. Unless of course you expect Scots working in England to rush back to Scotland to give birth just in case.

[Ymx]

How about we call a poach someone who was not born in country or go through school of country.

18 years old, were they in the country they are now playing in.

So every Northern Irish player who plays for Ireland is a poach as Northern Ireland is part of a different country to Ireland. And no Welsh, Scottish, English or Northern Irish person can be a poach for any of the other UK teams as it is all one country.

That is how daft this debate is. As there are four international rugby teams in these islands and we pretend as if they fit internationally recognised boundaries, are sovereign nations in their own right, operate as distinct economies etc. So we get the ridiculous situation of some people calling the children of people who move within the same country for work purposes, but whose children identify with and play for their original nation poaches.

There are plenty of people born and brought up in England who never consider themselves anything but Scots. Then of course there are the likes of Fin Smith who has two Scottish parents, whose grandfather was a Scottish Lion, but who always aligned with England. Scotland / England is just not the same as, for example, South Africa / France, and trying to apply the same definitions to both does not work. Unless of course you expect Scots working in England to rush back to Scotland to give birth just in case.

I reckon we can exclude shuffles between the British Isles.

[Jim Lahey]

We need a definitive list of who are each country's poaches and who are in the grey area category:

Ireland

Clear Poaches:

Lowe
JGP
Aki
Hansen
Herring
Bealham

Grey area:

Tom O'Toole (born in Ireland, grew up in Oz, finished his schooling in Ulster, Ulster Academy product)

Born abroad but spent most of their development in Ireland:

Jeremy Loughman - born in US, moved to England until he was 8 or so, then moved to Ireland and schooled there. Pretty sure his folks are Irish as well.

Am I missing anyone?

I'd say all bar Herring (I'd have him ahead of Kelleher but thats just me), TOT and Loughman make a fully fit, starting Irish 23, so 22% of poaches.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Scotland has some form for this over the last 30 years, not just the last 5. Some great additions like Sean Lineen, John & Martin Leslie. And some fairly ropey ones that were needed to fill a bit of gap, such as Brendan Chainsaw Laney and Dan Parks (who ended up with 50-odd caps). To be fair to Parks, there were a few good results in there, like the win over SA.

I'm sure there are many others I've missed.

Of the poaches in the last 5 years, Nel has had a huge impact in the fortunes of the Scottish scrum.

[Margin__Walker]

England are rank at poaching. Very little real value add

They've a lot to learn from Ireland, who have a great hit rate.

[Paddington Bear]

Scotland has some form for this over the last 30 years, not just the last 5. Some great additions like Sean Lineen, John & Martin Leslie. And some fairly ropey ones that were needed to fill a bit of gap, such as Brendan Chainsaw Laney and Dan Parks (who ended up with 50-odd caps). To be fair to Parks, there were a few good results in there, like the win over SA.

I'm sure there are many others I've missed.

Of the poaches in the last 5 years, Nel has had a huge impact in the fortunes of the Scottish scrum.

I always felt Parks was scapegoated

[Jim Lahey]

Agreed.
Parks was decent I thought. The issue was more with the likes of Rob Dewey outside him.

[Slick]

How about we call a poach someone who was not born in country or go through school of country.

18 years old, were they in the country they are now playing in.

So every Northern Irish player who plays for Ireland is a poach as Northern Ireland is part of a different country to Ireland. And no Welsh, Scottish, English or Northern Irish person can be a poach for any of the other UK teams as it is all one country.

That is how daft this debate is. As there are four international rugby teams in these islands and we pretend as if they fit internationally recognised boundaries, are sovereign nations in their own right, operate as distinct economies etc. So we get the ridiculous situation of some people calling the children of people who move within the same country for work purposes, but whose children identify with and play for their original nation poaches.

There are plenty of people born and brought up in England who never consider themselves anything but Scots. Then of course there are the likes of Fin Smith who has two Scottish parents, whose grandfather was a Scottish Lion, but who always aligned with England. Scotland / England is just not the same as, for example, South Africa / France, and trying to apply the same definitions to both does not work. Unless of course you expect Scots working in England to rush back to Scotland to give birth just in case.

Yes, was just about to post very similar.

Re bolded bit, my mum did that with my sister!

[sockwithaticket]

England are pretty poach free at the moment bar:

Roots - born and raised in New Zealand, English dad
Feyi-Waboso - born and raised in Wales, English grandparent


The only potential edge cases we have are the following, but it's a bit of a reach to file them under even grey area tbh:

Chandler Cunningham-South was born in England to English parents, but they emigrated to New Zealand when he was 4 and he came back here at 18 to join the London Irish academy. He has a properly weird English-Kiwi accent as a result.

Underhill was born in the USA and lived there for a chunk of his childhood, but both parents were English and he's been back in England since he was 10.

Fraser Dingwall has one English and one Scottish parent and has been through both age group set ups.

[clydecloggie]

England are pretty poach free at the moment bar:

Roots - born and raised in New Zealand, English dad
Feyi-Waboso - born and raised in Wales, English grandparent


The only potential edge cases we have are the following, but it's a bit of a reach to file them under even grey area tbh:

Chandler Cunningham-South was born in England to English parents, but they emigrated to New Zealand when he was 4 and he came back here at 18 to join the London Irish academy. He has a properly weird English-Kiwi accent as a result.

Underhill was born in the USA and lived there for a chunk of his childhood, but both parents were English and he's been back in England since he was 10.

Fraser Dingwall has one English and one Scottish parent and has been through both age group set ups.

As a side note, he must have the greatest disconnect between name and looks of any rugby player out there.

[PornDog]

England are rank at poaching. Very little real value add

They've a lot to learn from Ireland, who have a great hit rate.

I think we're just better at continuing player development. Most Kiwis will freely admit that none of Aki, JGP or Lowe were anywhere as good as they are now - at best they were on the fringes of the fringes of the All Blacks.

I think its more driven from the provinces having to find solutions from within - its much more difficult to just go out and sign a ball carrying backrower for the provinces, they really have to develop them themselves. Its also no surprise that Leinster (obviously) and Connacht (where Lam first brought in a big focus on upskilling) are where most of our best poaches play. Lowe, JGP, Bundee, Hansen and Bealham, with only really Herring from Ulster. The best Munster can muster* (and is another indicator of how poor Munster's player development has been over the years) is probably Jean Kleyn (no longer a poach, or a re-poach) followed by Keynan Knox (<scouse accent>Exactly!</scouse accent>). Frisch is a newer arrival of course and Stander previously, but he never really stepped up from his (fairly high) base level of performance.

* not counting the 'internal' poaches such as Beirne, Conway, et al - just to keep the inter provincial shitfighting meter fully calibrated.

[Margin__Walker]

England are rank at poaching. Very little real value add

They've a lot to learn from Ireland, who have a great hit rate.

I think we're just better at continuing player development. Most Kiwis will freely admit that none of Aki, JGP or Lowe were anywhere as good as they are now - at best they were on the fringes of the fringes of the All Blacks.

I think its more driven from the provinces having to find solutions from within - its much more difficult to just go out and sign a ball carrying backrower for the provinces, they really have to develop them themselves. Its also no surprise that Leinster (obviously) and Connacht (where Lam first brought in a big focus on upskilling) are where most of our best poaches play. Lowe, JGP, Bundee, Hansen and Bealham, with only really Herring from Ulster. The best Munster can muster* (and is another indicator of how poor Munster's player development has been over the years) is probably Jean Kleyn (no longer a poach, or a re-poach) followed by Keynan Knox (<scouse accent>Exactly!</scouse accent>). Frisch is a newer arrival of course and Stander previously, but he never really stepped up from his (fairly high) base level of performance.

* not counting the 'internal' poaches such as Beirne, Conway, et al - just to keep the inter provincial shitfighting meter fully calibrated.

Possibly. I think you're also looking at established super rugby players in those cases listed. So already a decent standard, albeit clearly better now. Barring Shields, most of the poachy players popping up in England teams recently were starting from a lower base. Guys like Roots, Ribbans, Hughes etc weren't playing at that level.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I think we're just better at continuing player development.

For every JGP there's going to be a Stockdale. But maybe, the reduced playing load certainly helps, and present a question to England what can you do with a top flight down to 10 teams, because that should raise the average standard of squad and give more time to potentially develop players. No idea how the hybrid contracts are working, or even supposed to work, from the outside it's an expensive fudge with some patent conflicts of interest, but maybe the RFU know what they're doing, history says no, but maybe

[Rhubarb & Custard]

And England's best poach was probably Catt, and that in many ways by accident. Matt Stevens was a thing too, until he suddenly wasn't for some reason. After that at best they've proved inconsistent and/or short-lived, arguably it highlights the lack of central control but that's hardly always a bad thing

[Yr Alban]

Scotland has some form for this over the last 30 years, not just the last 5. Some great additions like Sean Lineen, John & Martin Leslie. And some fairly ropey ones that were needed to fill a bit of gap, such as Brendan Chainsaw Laney and Dan Parks (who ended up with 50-odd caps). To be fair to Parks, there were a few good results in there, like the win over SA.

I'm sure there are many others I've missed.

Of the poaches in the last 5 years, Nel has had a huge impact in the fortunes of the Scottish scrum.

You could argue it goes back a lot further than that. Ian Smith, who played in the GS season in 1925 and held the record for international tries until Hogg broke it in 2021, was born to Scottish parents in Australia and brought up in New Zealand.

[Jim Lahey]

Agree on Catt. He was excellent, really dug England out of their wobbles in 2003.

Honourable mentions to Hartley, Stevens and Flutey.

[Tichtheid]

And England's best poach was probably Catt, and that in many ways by accident. Matt Stevens was a thing too, until he suddenly wasn't for some reason. After that at best they've proved inconsistent and/or short-lived, arguably it highlights the lack of central control but that's hardly always a bad thing

My favourite ever post on the subject of poaches was from a discussion in the comments section in the Guardian, some guy was rabbiting on about how Alex Corbisiero wasn't English and how he should never be playing for England. Then Corbs' dad posted in no uncertain terms about how English he was and that the poster was talking out his arse - all very politely of course.

[PornDog]

England are rank at poaching. Very little real value add

They've a lot to learn from Ireland, who have a great hit rate.

I think we're just better at continuing player development. Most Kiwis will freely admit that none of Aki, JGP or Lowe were anywhere as good as they are now - at best they were on the fringes of the fringes of the All Blacks.

I think its more driven from the provinces having to find solutions from within - its much more difficult to just go out and sign a ball carrying backrower for the provinces, they really have to develop them themselves. Its also no surprise that Leinster (obviously) and Connacht (where Lam first brought in a big focus on upskilling) are where most of our best poaches play. Lowe, JGP, Bundee, Hansen and Bealham, with only really Herring from Ulster. The best Munster can muster* (and is another indicator of how poor Munster's player development has been over the years) is probably Jean Kleyn (no longer a poach, or a re-poach) followed by Keynan Knox (<scouse accent>Exactly!</scouse accent>). Frisch is a newer arrival of course and Stander previously, but he never really stepped up from his (fairly high) base level of performance.

* not counting the 'internal' poaches such as Beirne, Conway, et al - just to keep the inter provincial shitfighting meter fully calibrated.

Possibly. I think you're also looking at established super rugby players in those cases listed. So already a decent standard, albeit clearly better now. Barring Shields, most of the poachy players popping up in England teams recently were starting from a lower base. Guys like Roots, Ribbans, Hughes etc weren't playing at that level.

In those cases certainly, but Herring and Bealham became professional rugby players in Ireland, and Hansen certainly wasn't established at Super Rugby level (couldn't really get his game for the Brumbies). Either way though, they have all showed considerable improvement since being in Ireland.

I think we're just better at continuing player development.

For every JGP there's going to be a Stockdale. But maybe, the reduced playing load certainly helps, and present a question to England what can you do with a top flight down to 10 teams, because that should raise the average standard of squad and give more time to potentially develop players. No idea how the hybrid contracts are working, or even supposed to work, from the outside it's an expensive fudge with some patent conflicts of interest, but maybe the RFU know what they're doing, history says no, but maybe

Stockdale (and Balacoune and anyone else you care to mention) is at Ulster, which unfortunately are more than a bit of a basket case in terms of development and coaching at the moment. As I said above, what is apparent at Leinster and Connacht is much less so at Ulster and Munster - though I do have confidence that is changing in Munster. Poor Ulster though need a fucking entire clearout of coaching staff (and probably senior admin as well). They have so much bloody talent, particularly in the backs, but its all just so uninspiring up there at the moment

I certainly think we are much better at player management than most, which is of benefit (and we still get plenty wrong), but its more the focus on development I think. Although, you really can't quantify the positive effects on your game just being in a great environment can have. Maybe it is less development and more just people going to work with a smile on their face?