Best Player Poachers In The 6N

[Yr Alban]

How about we call a poach someone who was not born in country or go through school of country.

18 years old, were they in the country they are now playing in.

So every Northern Irish player who plays for Ireland is a poach as Northern Ireland is part of a different country to Ireland. And no Welsh, Scottish, English or Northern Irish person can be a poach for any of the other UK teams as it is all one country.

That is how daft this debate is. As there are four international rugby teams in these islands and we pretend as if they fit internationally recognised boundaries, are sovereign nations in their own right, operate as distinct economies etc. So we get the ridiculous situation of some people calling the children of people who move within the same country for work purposes, but whose children identify with and play for their original nation poaches.

There are plenty of people born and brought up in England who never consider themselves anything but Scots. Then of course there are the likes of Fin Smith who has two Scottish parents, whose grandfather was a Scottish Lion, but who always aligned with England. Scotland / England is just not the same as, for example, South Africa / France, and trying to apply the same definitions to both does not work. Unless of course you expect Scots working in England to rush back to Scotland to give birth just in case.

Yes, was just about to post very similar.

Re bolded bit, my mum did that with my sister!

John Leslie did it when he played for Newcastle. Drove his wife to the Borders General when she went into Labour because otherwise the kid wouldn’t be SQ.

I suggested it to my wife when she was pregnant and we happened to be in Newcastle too. She wasn’t having it though.

Regarding weegie’s original post, we’ll have to agree to disagree about the UK being ‘all one country’ because this isn’t a political thread. But the point is important all the same. The UK is the nation state and we all have to share the same passport, and moving around the UK for work is far less complex than moving to, say, Australia or Germany (even prior to Brexit). Rugby in Scotland is a predominantly middle class sport, and middle class families are more likely to relocate for work reasons. People go where the jobs are, and within the UK, this depressingly tends to mean London and SE England. Which means that there is a well-established pattern of rugby players with Scots ancestry being born and brought up in England. The advent of professional rugby has also given us examples like Cam Redpath - born in France and brought up in England, specifically because that’s where his dad’s rugby career took him.

[Tichtheid]

The advent of professional rugby has also given us examples like Cam Redpath - born in France and brought up in England, specifically because that’s where his dad’s rugby career took him.

Zach Mercer - born in Leeds, schooled in Scotland, Kiwi dad, played in France.


He qualifies for England and New Zealand, at one time he qualified for Scotland and had he stayed longer he would have qualified for France.

[sockwithaticket]

The advent of professional rugby has also given us examples like Cam Redpath - born in France and brought up in England, specifically because that’s where his dad’s rugby career took him.

Zach Mercer - born in Leeds, schooled in Scotland, Kiwi dad, played in France.


He qualifies for England and New Zealand, at one time he qualified for Scotland and had he stayed longer he would have qualified for France.

No, if you've already been capped by a nation, you can't then qualify by residency for another. Only heritage or ancestry are allowed.

[Slick]

And England's best poach was probably Catt, and that in many ways by accident. Matt Stevens was a thing too, until he suddenly wasn't for some reason. After that at best they've proved inconsistent and/or short-lived, arguably it highlights the lack of central control but that's hardly always a bad thing

Wasn't the reason a large amount of powder going up his nose and the rest being distributed to other players?

[Tichtheid]

The advent of professional rugby has also given us examples like Cam Redpath - born in France and brought up in England, specifically because that’s where his dad’s rugby career took him.

Zach Mercer - born in Leeds, schooled in Scotland, Kiwi dad, played in France.


He qualifies for England and New Zealand, at one time he qualified for Scotland and had he stayed longer he would have qualified for France.

No, if you've already been capped by a nation, you can't then qualify by residency for another. Only heritage or ancestry are allowed.

Well that has to change immediately!

[sockwithaticket]

And England's best poach was probably Catt, and that in many ways by accident. Matt Stevens was a thing too, until he suddenly wasn't for some reason. After that at best they've proved inconsistent and/or short-lived, arguably it highlights the lack of central control but that's hardly always a bad thing

Wasn't the reason a large amount of powder going up his nose and the rest being distributed to other players?

He still had a fair bit of career following his ban for that, including playing for England at the 2011 world cup.

[inactionman]

And England's best poach was probably Catt, and that in many ways by accident. Matt Stevens was a thing too, until he suddenly wasn't for some reason. After that at best they've proved inconsistent and/or short-lived, arguably it highlights the lack of central control but that's hardly always a bad thing

Wasn't the reason a large amount of powder going up his nose and the rest being distributed to other players?

It played a role, certainly.

After his ban he ended up at Sarries, you'll be amazed to hear, and played well for them and won a few more caps. I think he actually opted to retire from international rugby.

Michael Lipman was also caught up in it all, and although he wasn't busted per se he refused to take a drugs test, resigned and went back to Oz - he hadn't played the 6N that year (2009 - I think they went with Steffon Armitage?) so not sure if his international career was already over by that point anyway.

And, of course, Bath imploded.

I blame Justin Harrison. Oz Healey should have properly chinned him.

[Slick]

And England's best poach was probably Catt, and that in many ways by accident. Matt Stevens was a thing too, until he suddenly wasn't for some reason. After that at best they've proved inconsistent and/or short-lived, arguably it highlights the lack of central control but that's hardly always a bad thing

Wasn't the reason a large amount of powder going up his nose and the rest being distributed to other players?

It played a role, certainly.

After his ban he ended up at Sarries, you'll be amazed to hear, and played well for them and won a few more caps.

Michael Lipman was also caught up in it all, and although he wasn't busted per se he refused to take a drugs test, resigned and went back to Oz - he hadn't played the 6N that year (2009 - I think they went with Steffon Armitage?) so not sure if his international career was already over by that point anyway.

And, of course, Bath imploded.

I blame Justin Harrison. Oz Healey should have properly chinned him.

The pubs around Fulham on a Sunday afternoon back in those days was a sight to behold with players from all over congregating

[sockwithaticket]

Didn't Harrison also run into some Colombian marching powder related issues in France when he was supposed to be looking after James O'Connor? It's amazing to me that he's been able to become a mainstream broadcaster.

[SomersetJock]

Surely poaching should only be a term used for players who would be wanted by their country of birth but have been taken by another Union against the will
of those who have a legitimate claim.

Like taking a deer or a rabbit from a forest with permission of the landowner because he has enough for himself.

Obviously as a Scotland fan the only one we’ve had that I consider a poach is Tim Visser

So top poaches for me are Faletau and his cousins across the border, Raka, Tuilagi etc

All the rest are legit

All very tongue in cheek if I’m being honest, but taking these players from their countries of birth’s teams does more damage to the growing of the game than the odd Saffa, Kiwi or Aussies wearing a thistle, shamrock or dragon !

[inactionman]

Didn't Harrison also run into some Colombian marching powder related issues in France when he was supposed to be looking after James O'Connor? It's amazing to me that he's been able to become a mainstream broadcaster.

Yep, he's not a great influence.

Harrison did admit to yelling "Class A, it's OK, everyone's doing it," over a microphone on the coach taking the players to the London party.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/ ... son-banned

[inactionman]

Didn't Harrison also run into some Colombian marching powder related issues in France when he was supposed to be looking after James O'Connor? It's amazing to me that he's been able to become a mainstream broadcaster.

Yep, he's not a great influence.

Harrison did admit to yelling "Class A, it's OK, everyone's doing it," over a microphone on the coach taking the players to the London party.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/ ... son-banned

Check out the shifty look on his face

[Yr Alban]

Surely poaching should only be a term used for players who would be wanted by their country of birth but have been taken by another Union against the will
of those who have a legitimate claim.

Like taking a deer or a rabbit from a forest with permission of the landowner because he has enough for himself.

Obviously as a Scotland fan the only one we’ve had that I consider a poach is Tim Visser

So top poaches for me are Faletau and his cousins across the border, Raka, Tuilagi etc

All the rest are legit

All very tongue in cheek if I’m being honest, but taking these players from their countries of birth’s teams does more damage to the growing of the game than the odd Saffa, Kiwi or Aussies wearing a thistle, shamrock or dragon !

It is certainly the case that Tim Visser is the only player Scotland have poached whose original country would have capped the hell out of them if given a chance to do so. Maybe Redpath or Ashman might fit the bill now for players courted by England who declared for Scotland?

Of course, SA would probably have capped Nel and DVDM if they had known how good they would become. But that’s after the fact.

[inactionman]

Surely poaching should only be a term used for players who would be wanted by their country of birth but have been taken by another Union against the will
of those who have a legitimate claim.

Like taking a deer or a rabbit from a forest with permission of the landowner because he has enough for himself.

Obviously as a Scotland fan the only one we’ve had that I consider a poach is Tim Visser

So top poaches for me are Faletau and his cousins across the border, Raka, Tuilagi etc

All the rest are legit

All very tongue in cheek if I’m being honest, but taking these players from their countries of birth’s teams does more damage to the growing of the game than the odd Saffa, Kiwi or Aussies wearing a thistle, shamrock or dragon !

Tuilagi moved to England as a child, Faletau to Wales as well.

I'm not sure I could claim, with a straight face or with tongue in cheek, Wales poached a 3 year old.

I'd say the term 'poach'; should be reserved for players who started a rugby career in the country of their birth but upped sticks to another, indeed against the will of the mother country and union. Kids moving just isn't the same thing.

[inactionman]

Surely poaching should only be a term used for players who would be wanted by their country of birth but have been taken by another Union against the will
of those who have a legitimate claim.

Like taking a deer or a rabbit from a forest with permission of the landowner because he has enough for himself.

Obviously as a Scotland fan the only one we’ve had that I consider a poach is Tim Visser

So top poaches for me are Faletau and his cousins across the border, Raka, Tuilagi etc

All the rest are legit

All very tongue in cheek if I’m being honest, but taking these players from their countries of birth’s teams does more damage to the growing of the game than the odd Saffa, Kiwi or Aussies wearing a thistle, shamrock or dragon !

It is certainly the case that Tim Visser is the only player Scotland have poached whose original country would have capped the hell out of them if given a chance to do so. Maybe Redpath or Ashman might fit the bill now for players courted by England who declared for Scotland?

Of course, SA would probably have capped Nel and DVDM if they had known how good they would become. But that’s after the fact.

If I'm following argument correctly here, its probably important to note that Cam Redpath was born in France. If the argument (not yours btw) is that not-Toby Faletau should play for Tonga, then Cam Redpath should play for France.

[Ymx]

If two Scottish adults have a kid in the South east who then goes to school and college in England.

That kid is not Scottish !

[PornDog]

I'm certainly glad you're here to tell everyone else who it is they REALLY are!

Poor kids wouldn't know what way is up without you!

[OomStruisbaai]

Born on the dusty streets of Vereeniging, raised on nothing but raw meat and zebra milk until he was nine, Josh van der Flier is as South African as the stalagmites in the Sterkfontein Caves.

[Slick]

If two Scottish adults have a kid in the South east who then goes to school and college in England.

That kid is not Scottish !

I know plenty who would very much disagree with you.

[inactionman]

If two Scottish adults have a kid in the South east who then goes to school and college in England.

That kid is not Scottish !

oh, now you've done it

[petej]

England are rank at poaching. Very little real value add

They've a lot to learn from Ireland, who have a great hit rate.

I think we're just better at continuing player development. Most Kiwis will freely admit that none of Aki, JGP or Lowe were anywhere as good as they are now - at best they were on the fringes of the fringes of the All Blacks.

I think its more driven from the provinces having to find solutions from within - its much more difficult to just go out and sign a ball carrying backrower for the provinces, they really have to develop them themselves. Its also no surprise that Leinster (obviously) and Connacht (where Lam first brought in a big focus on upskilling) are where most of our best poaches play. Lowe, JGP, Bundee, Hansen and Bealham, with only really Herring from Ulster. The best Munster can muster* (and is another indicator of how poor Munster's player development has been over the years) is probably Jean Kleyn (no longer a poach, or a re-poach) followed by Keynan Knox (<scouse accent>Exactly!</scouse accent>). Frisch is a newer arrival of course and Stander previously, but he never really stepped up from his (fairly high) base level of performance.

* not counting the 'internal' poaches such as Beirne, Conway, et al - just to keep the inter provincial shitfighting meter fully calibrated.

Coaching definitely plays a big role. The irfu are really good a recruiting the best coaches. Lancaster, for example, is an excellent coach for developing players.

Has any one else noticed that Lancaster teams have an incredible record of failing to win things they should win, to have a 80%win record over 4 years in the 6N and fail to win it is impressive and Leinsters recent failures in the champions cup and URC.

[sockwithaticket]

In my experience Celts in England tend to inculcate a very strong sense of identity in their offspring.

I've never met more fervent Welsh supporters than those whose connection to soggy land beyond the Severn is a solitary grandparent.

[Jim Lahey]

You should use that argument on PR petej, the Leinster creche will chow down on that bait.

Don't think we have too many D4 private schoolboys in this parish.

[Margin__Walker]

I think we're just better at continuing player development. Most Kiwis will freely admit that none of Aki, JGP or Lowe were anywhere as good as they are now - at best they were on the fringes of the fringes of the All Blacks.

I think its more driven from the provinces having to find solutions from within - its much more difficult to just go out and sign a ball carrying backrower for the provinces, they really have to develop them themselves. Its also no surprise that Leinster (obviously) and Connacht (where Lam first brought in a big focus on upskilling) are where most of our best poaches play. Lowe, JGP, Bundee, Hansen and Bealham, with only really Herring from Ulster. The best Munster can muster* (and is another indicator of how poor Munster's player development has been over the years) is probably Jean Kleyn (no longer a poach, or a re-poach) followed by Keynan Knox (<scouse accent>Exactly!</scouse accent>). Frisch is a newer arrival of course and Stander previously, but he never really stepped up from his (fairly high) base level of performance.

* not counting the 'internal' poaches such as Beirne, Conway, et al - just to keep the inter provincial shitfighting meter fully calibrated.

Possibly. I think you're also looking at established super rugby players in those cases listed. So already a decent standard, albeit clearly better now. Barring Shields, most of the poachy players popping up in England teams recently were starting from a lower base. Guys like Roots, Ribbans, Hughes etc weren't playing at that level.

In those cases certainly, but Herring and Bealham became professional rugby players in Ireland, and Hansen certainly wasn't established at Super Rugby level (couldn't really get his game for the Brumbies). Either way though, they have all showed considerable improvement since being in Ireland.

Herring's interesting as he knocked about a bit before finding his feet. I remember him from his academy days at LI, but believe he went back to SA after that before pitching up at Ulster.

Bealham's done well. For me he'd be in the same sort of bracket as guys like Hartley, Harrison and Cunningham-South (minus the birth in his case) for England. Schooled elsewhere but became a pro player up here.

Ireland is certainly a healthy system to arrive in and be nurtured by, and it won't have done any harm. Would be really interesting to see how a guy like JGP would have done playing out his career in NZ in a parallel universe.

[Ymx]

In my experience Celts in England tend to inculcate a very strong sense of identity in their offspring.

I've never met more fervent Welsh supporters than those whose connection to soggy land beyond the Severn is a solitary grandparent.

But they must know they are actually English. English accent, upbringing. They can’t be that stupidly brainwashed by their parents?

Not only that, when they visit Wales/Scotland trying to call themselves locals they would be laughed at, they’d only ever be called English by the locals. At most a plastic.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

If two Scottish adults have a kid in the South east who then goes to school and college in England.

That kid is not Scottish !

I know plenty who would very much disagree with you.

That would describe me, then. And I can tell you most assuredly that I consider myself to be completely Scottish! Took all kinds of shite at school for vocally supporting Scotland at every opportunity. I am basically Hamish Watson.

[PornDog]

In my experience Celts in England tend to inculcate a very strong sense of identity in their offspring.

I've never met more fervent Welsh supporters than those whose connection to soggy land beyond the Severn is a solitary grandparent.

But they must know they are actually English. English accent, upbringing. They can’t be that stupidly brainwashed by their parents?

Not only that, when they visit Wales/Scotland trying to call themselves locals they would be laughed at, they’d only ever be called English by the locals. At most a plastic.

So Spike Milligan was a great Indian comedian and Mohandas Ghandi was a South African statesman? Apparently, Kim Jong Un is the Dictator of Switzerland!

I assume you're on a troll and not actually this big of a fucking idiot!

[petej]

You should use that argument on PR petej, the Leinster creche will chow down on that bait.

Don't think we have too many D4 private schoolboys in this parish.

Not really intended as Leinster bait. I was looking at 2012-2015 6N and England failed to win 1 with an 80% win record in that time. Finishing 2nd in all 4 years and in 3 of them on points difference. That has to be the best coaching win % over multiple years without winning it.

[PornDog]

You should use that argument on PR petej, the Leinster creche will chow down on that bait.

Don't think we have too many D4 private schoolboys in this parish.

Not really intended as Leinster bait. I was looking at 2012-2015 6N and England failed to win 1 with an 80% win record in that time. Finishing 2nd in all 4 years and in 3 of them on points difference. That has to be the best coaching win % over multiple years without winning it.

Eddie O'Sullivan, for all his faults, had quite a few near misses with us as well. Picked up a couple of Triple Crowns, but lost out on numerous six nations by a hairs breath, including 2007 thanks to a late conceded try against Italy and France also scoring a late try against Scotland to pip the point difference.

Lancaster's is more condensed though I'm sure. He did win 1 European and 4 league titles in a row with Leinster though, so hardly missed out on titles. Winning things is hard, with plenty of opportunities to slip up, especially at the business end.

[inactionman]

I've never really got the fuss about it - many people have attachments to a number of countries, be that by birth, residence or ancestry, and it is up to them which they most closely identify with.

Plastic paddies are a whole different ballgame though. There should be laws.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

In my experience Celts in England tend to inculcate a very strong sense of identity in their offspring.

I've never met more fervent Welsh supporters than those whose connection to soggy land beyond the Severn is a solitary grandparent.

But they must know they are actually English. English accent, upbringing. They can’t be that stupidly brainwashed by their parents?

Not only that, when they visit Wales/Scotland trying to call themselves locals they would be laughed at, they’d only ever be called English by the locals. At most a plastic.

Not really. I think having an understanding of the culture of the mother country is more important to the locals than having the right accent. True, some communities might always consider people who move there to be 'incomers' no matter their heritage, but there's plenty people with English accents that are not laughed at or called plastic. But thanks for your input anyway.

[Jim Lahey]

So in conclusion, I'm going to go for the following league table in terms of effectiveness (not volume) of each nation's poaching:

1. Ireland
2. Scotland

Daylight

3. France

More Daylight

4. Wales
5. Italy
6. England

[Lobby]

At least the current poaches do actually qualify for the teams they are playing for.

It was much more fun in the 90s when certain countries would pick anyone willing to play for them, regardless of whether or not they were qualified to do so.

Dave Hilton managed to pick up 41 caps for Scotland before it was realised he didn't meet any of the normal criteria. To be fair to him, although he, his parents and his grandparents were all born in England, one of his great-grandparents had been born in Scotland.

Better still were Brett Sinkinson and Shane Howarth, two New Zealanders who played for Wales despite not being Welsh and not having any Welsh ancestry. Colin Charvis was also not actually Welsh by any legitimate measure when he got his first caps, but had at least qualified by residency by the time anyone noticed.

At that time so desperate were the Welsh and Scottish unions to find any half decent players willing to play for them, that they would send scouts to scour Australia and New Zealand looking for anyone with any sort of familial link to the 'home' country, no matter how tenuous. That was how Jason Jones-Hughes and Matt Cardey were parachuted into the Welsh team almost as soon as they arrived in Wales. And of course, there was Brendan Laney, who was given his first Scottish cap as he was getting off the plane from New Zealand.

[Ymx]

In my experience Celts in England tend to inculcate a very strong sense of identity in their offspring.

I've never met more fervent Welsh supporters than those whose connection to soggy land beyond the Severn is a solitary grandparent.

But they must know they are actually English. English accent, upbringing. They can’t be that stupidly brainwashed by their parents?

Not only that, when they visit Wales/Scotland trying to call themselves locals they would be laughed at, they’d only ever be called English by the locals. At most a plastic.

So Spike Milligan was a great Indian comedian and Mohandas Ghandi was a South African statesman? Apparently, Kim Jong Un is the Dictator of Switzerland!

I assume you're on a troll and not actually this big of a fucking idiot!

You mean Terrance Milligan the English republican?

Did he ever live in Ireland?

Terence Alan "Spike" Milligan KBE (16 April 1918 – 27 February 2002) was an Irish[(A) comedian, writer, musician, poet, playwright and actor. The son of an English mother and Irish father, he was born in British Colonial India, where he spent his childhood before relocating in 1931 to England, where he lived and worked for the majority of his life

(A) Milligan was half English and half Irish, and felt that he was entitled to British citizenship, especially after having served in the British Army for six years. When British law related to Commonwealth-born residents (which had given him a secure place in the UK) changed, he applied for a British passport in 1960. The application was refused, partly because he would not swear an Oath of Allegiance. He avoided statelessness by becoming an Irish citizen in 1962 and remained so for the rest of his life.

[PornDog]

But they must know they are actually English. English accent, upbringing. They can’t be that stupidly brainwashed by their parents?

Not only that, when they visit Wales/Scotland trying to call themselves locals they would be laughed at, they’d only ever be called English by the locals. At most a plastic.

So Spike Milligan was a great Indian comedian and Mohandas Ghandi was a South African statesman? Apparently, Kim Jong Un is the Dictator of Switzerland!

I assume you're on a troll and not actually this big of a fucking idiot!

You mean Terrance Milligan the English republican?

Did he ever live in Ireland?

Terence Alan "Spike" Milligan KBE (16 April 1918 – 27 February 2002) was an Irish[(A) comedian, writer, musician, poet, playwright and actor. The son of an English mother and Irish father, he was born in British Colonial India, where he spent his childhood before relocating in 1931 to England, where he lived and worked for the majority of his life

(A) Milligan was half English and half Irish, and felt that he was entitled to British citizenship, especially after having served in the British Army for six years. When British law related to Commonwealth-born residents (which had given him a secure place in the UK) changed, he applied for a British passport in 1960. The application was refused, partly because he would not swear an Oath of Allegiance. He avoided statelessness by becoming an Irish citizen in 1962 and remained so for the rest of his life.

So you agree you were talking utter bollox, good man

[Jim Lahey]

Who is your country's most shameful poach?

Michael Bent for Ireland, no doubt about it. Think he was capped the week he landed in Dublin. And I think that was his 1 and only cap

[Tichtheid]

Who is your country's most shameful poach?

Michael Bent for Ireland, no doubt about it. Think he was capped the week he landed in Dublin. And I think that was his 1 and only cap

For us it was probably Brendan Laney, although I'm not sure about the term, "shameful", he was SQ and the jersey was practically thrown at him as he walked off the aircraft, it certainly kicked up a cart load of controversy.

The most shameful involvement of a blow-in was Matt Williams, complete tosser and a useless coach.

[Margin__Walker]

Who is your country's most shameful poach?

Michael Bent for Ireland, no doubt about it. Think he was capped the week he landed in Dublin. And I think that was his 1 and only cap

Brad Shields as a straight off the plane job (he may even have still been playing SR and just met the team in SA - I forget)

Lesley Vainikolo for a capped straight from league residency poach

[sockwithaticket]

Who is your country's most shameful poach?

Michael Bent for Ireland, no doubt about it. Think he was capped the week he landed in Dublin. And I think that was his 1 and only cap

He finished up with 5 caps all told, but iirc there was some gap between the first a second.

[sockwithaticket]

Who is your country's most shameful poach?

Michael Bent for Ireland, no doubt about it. Think he was capped the week he landed in Dublin. And I think that was his 1 and only cap

Brad Shields as a straight off the plane job (he may even have still been playing SR and just met the team in SA - I forget)

Lesley Vainikolo for a capped straight from league residency poach

Eddie interepreted 'playing in England' as signed for an English club, don't think he even set foot in or around Coventry before playing for England.