Kicking off in Israel

[Hugo]

This conflict is going to spill over borders everywhere and the result will be increased acts of terror and reprisals carried out within civilian areas all over the world.

Night follows day.

Indeed. When people die in the west at the hands of Islamic extremists people are justifiably up in arms about it. However, since October the number of kids who have been killed by Israel has dwarfed the number of western civilians who have been killed by jihadis. 10,000 kids have died - three times the number who perished on September 11th - and the west has either been complicit (most obviously the US) or sat on the sidelines and done next to nothing about it.

It's probably the most disappointing/depressing thing about this. Honestly can't really blame jihadis for wanting to avenge the deaths of all those Palestinian kids, I would be in the same exact boat as them if it was my kids who were killed.

I prefer your Refry persona

Not sure your point. No western country would tolerate 10,000 of its children being killed.

[vball]

We have spent a lot of time in the car recently and listen to much radio. My wife is pretty non-political and does not really engage with me in much meaningful political discussion. She is far more intelligent than me (PhD, etc) but it is not her thing.

She said to me yesterday, after listening to somebody from Israeli parliament, how it was no wonder people were turning against Israel. Something like .... " So many of their spokes people always blame everybody else but themselves, they see the world is such an extreme black and white mode, such polar opposites. They are not willing to discuss/debate ... they are so correct and everybody else is so wrong. It is never their fault, it is always others. Their killing of innocents is so justified ..."

She really was upset. Then later on Michael Levy was on the radio. And the interviewer got around to the above. And he was so critical of the spokes people above. He said they (Israel) need to talk, discuss, perhaps move on some items, etc. He was reasonable and rational. The others are ..... extremists. Zionists. Nazis. Whatever you want to call them.

Perhaps the mods will remove this.

[C69]

Now the IDF is storming another hospital and embargoing all press and trying to stop all reports and attempting again to block phone networks apparently.
Nasser hospital is decimated

[Guy Smiley]

We have spent a lot of time in the car recently and listen to much radio. My wife is pretty non-political and does not really engage with me in much meaningful political discussion. She is far more intelligent than me (PhD, etc) but it is not her thing.

She said to me yesterday, after listening to somebody from Israeli parliament, how it was no wonder people were turning against Israel. Something like .... " So many of their spokes people always blame everybody else but themselves, they see the world is such an extreme black and white mode, such polar opposites. They are not willing to discuss/debate ... they are so correct and everybody else is so wrong. It is never their fault, it is always others. Their killing of innocents is so justified ..."

She really was upset. Then later on Michael Levy was on the radio. And the interviewer got around to the above. And he was so critical of the spokes people above. He said they (Israel) need to talk, discuss, perhaps move on some items, etc. He was reasonable and rational. The others are ..... extremists. Zionists. Nazis. Whatever you want to call them.

Perhaps the mods will remove this.

Totally agree with your wife's perspective. It's not all Israelis, there are moderates but they are increasingly outnumbered and shouted down.

[mat the expat]

Yes, some of the stories I have read are extremely disturbing. 4 year olds who have witnessed their parents death and been buried in rubble for hours/days type of stuff. Thats level of trauma that one will spend an entire life trying to come to terms with.

The west has pretty much given Israel carte blanche to do this and I for one will not forget that.

I'm imagining that therapist's availability there are not going to be great in the next 20 years. Much easier to pick up a gun.

The Strategy behind this is so obviously an End-run by Netanyahu to keep his grip on power

[Enzedder]

Large rocket attack underway from Lebanon

[C69]

Large rocket attack underway from Lebanon

Large?
Compared to what... I'll let you give the info

[Guy Smiley]

[Flockwitt]

Large rocket attack underway from Lebanon

Crap. Just what wasn't wanted. There were Israeli strikes into Lebanon - is this in response or going to happen anyway?

[C69]

The scary thing is that a nation can stop all info coming from an area they control.
It's crazy

[Uncle fester]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68355125

These are pretty hard to read. Depressing thing is that there's more and more of this to come.

[Uncle fester]

Here's how the term anti-Semitic gets devalued.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2024/f ... ntisemitic

[Guy Smiley]

Here's how the term anti-Semitic gets devalued.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2024/f ... ntisemitic

I think 'manipulated' is a more accurate word there.

[C69]

Looks like the IDF opened fire on unarmed civilians awaiting aid today.
Over 100 dead. Loads killed by bullets and some died trying to escape the attack on a crush.
Wtaf?

[mat the expat]

Looks like the IDF opened fire on unarmed civilians awaiting aid today.
Over 100 dead. Loads killed by bullets and some died trying to escape the attack on a crush.
Wtaf?

An absolute disgrace

[Gumboot]

Looks like the IDF opened fire on unarmed civilians awaiting aid today.
Over 100 dead. Loads killed by bullets and some died trying to escape the attack on a crush.
Wtaf?

An absolute disgrace

Barbaric.

[Calculon]

This is even worse than when they bombed the hospital

[Guy Smiley]

This is even worse than when they bombed the hospital

Edgelord... edges.

[Calculon]

Person who told the British Jew that the Israel government was HIS government believes Hamas over Israel shocker.

[Hugo]

One of the things that I am beginning to find more and more absurd and ridiculous these days is the way that the term "democracy" is used as if it is synonymous with righteousness. That democracy is not only the most desirable form of government but the only virtuous way to govern.

Parliaments and legislatures throughout the world have crooked people and liars in their membership. Democracies themselves have perpetrated many heinous atrocities. Just because Israel is a democracy it doesn't mean its behavior is somehow more defensible. Ditto any other democracy on earth. Can we please stop trying to conflate democracy with goodness?

[Uncle fester]

One of the things that I am beginning to find more and more absurd and ridiculous these days is the way that the term "democracy" is used as if it is synonymous with righteousness. That democracy is not only the most desirable form of government but the only virtuous way to govern.

Parliaments and legislatures throughout the world have crooked people and liars in their membership. Democracies themselves have perpetrated many heinous atrocities. Just because Israel is a democracy it doesn't mean its behavior is somehow more defensible. Ditto any other democracy on earth. Can we please stop trying to conflate democracy with goodness?

Can you really call Israel a democracy?
Sizeable fraction of the population under their rule are disenfranchised.

[Uncle fester]

White phosphorus in southern Lebanon.
https://www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/202 ... us-israel/

[sefton]

This is even worse than when they bombed the hospital

Even the IDF are admitting to opening fire on the crowd, you disingenuous odious little worm.

[Ymx]

Some footage here. Looks mad.

[Ymx]

And Egyptian aid worker

[Kiwias]

Israel will not stop, and I think they are within their rights to destroy the Hamas entity. Hamas have outlined their complete lack of willingness to ever negotiate a permanent peace. Gaza from 2006 was theirs to make what they could. They chose this path.

Hamas brought this to their doorstep.

Israel are spelling out in advance where they are next attacking to avoid civilian casualties.

If stats are to be believed, the ratio of Hamas to civilian death is extremely high for a war/conflict.

I must have missed the memo about attacking civilians gathering at aid trucks.

[C69]

Pmsl
YMX een the IDF who are nit really known as being the most truthfull of psychopaths agree they shot the ciialians who were trying to get aid.

[Ymx]

Israel will not stop, and I think they are within their rights to destroy the Hamas entity. Hamas have outlined their complete lack of willingness to ever negotiate a permanent peace. Gaza from 2006 was theirs to make what they could. They chose this path.

Hamas brought this to their doorstep.

Israel are spelling out in advance where they are next attacking to avoid civilian casualties.

If stats are to be believed, the ratio of Hamas to civilian death is extremely high for a war/conflict.

I must have missed the memo about attacking civilians gathering at aid trucks.

Ironic, given the fate of the poor Egyptian driver immediately above.

And here

[sefton]

Ymx, the King of Whataboutery.

[Ymx]

Ymx, the King of Whataboutery.

Feel free to sod off back to PR with your Welsh comrade.

[Hugo]

So, in defending Rishi Sunak's ludicrous speech Jeremy Hunt says (on Sky News) that "intimidatory protests that make people feel unsafe are not the British way". Yet the British state has been complicit in enabling the genocide in Gaza.

Sunak's speech was pure projection. It was a first class example of a person ascribing to someone else all of the things of which they themselves are guilty. To any rational person, protesting genocide is not the extremist position but enabling one surely is.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Qualified support is an odd thing to label complicit. And really had we strongly objected every day it might not have changed much. The Scottish parliament already had a vote in favour of peace, quite some weeks ago, and that had about as much impact as I suspect the UK government doing similar would have.

It might even have reduced the chances of many in the current Israeli government being wiling to listen.

Now if you wanted to call Russia complicit then fair enough.

[Hugo]

One of the things that I am beginning to find more and more absurd and ridiculous these days is the way that the term "democracy" is used as if it is synonymous with righteousness. That democracy is not only the most desirable form of government but the only virtuous way to govern.

Parliaments and legislatures throughout the world have crooked people and liars in their membership. Democracies themselves have perpetrated many heinous atrocities. Just because Israel is a democracy it doesn't mean its behavior is somehow more defensible. Ditto any other democracy on earth. Can we please stop trying to conflate democracy with goodness?

Can you really call Israel a democracy?
Sizeable fraction of the population under their rule are disenfranchised.

True, Israel is not a pure democracy. Neither are some of its staunchest allies that like to use the term "democracy" at the drop of a hat. The word "democracy" has been co-opted by some pretty awful people to justify pretty awful things.

It's as if by describing themselves as democracies countries have a licence to do whatever they want because they occupy the moral high ground.

[Hugo]

Qualified support is an odd thing to label complicit.

In what way has it been qualified? I would say that the UK (and west more generally) has been pretty unequivocal in its support of Israel. Certainly the flow of arms into Israel - that end up destroying homes and taking lives in Gaza - has continued unabated.

And really had we strongly objected every day it might not have changed much.

So, if it wouldn't change much why wouldn't you do it anyway? At least that way your conscience is clear and you can live with the fact that you did the right thing even if your protestations were ignored.

[sefton]

Ymx, the King of Whataboutery.

Feel free to sod off back to PR with your Welsh comrade.

Did ASMO finally succumb to an over tight ball gag and leave you in charge?

[Calculon]

This is even worse than when they bombed the hospital

Even the IDF are admitting to opening fire on the crowd, you disingenuous odious little worm.

You're a very angry person aren't you. Can't be arsed to look it up but IIRC correctly their version was that they targeted several individuals who approached their troops in a threatening manner, rather than gunning down a thousand plus people waiting for food aid as per the Hamas version

[Tilly Orifice]

Ymx, the King of Whataboutery.

Feel free to sod off back to PR with your Welsh comrade.

Yes, we could use more people speaking up for common decency over there too.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Qualified support is an odd thing to label complicit.

In what way has it been qualified? I would say that the UK (and west more generally) has been pretty unequivocal in its support of Israel. Certainly the flow of arms into Israel - that end up destroying homes and taking lives in Gaza - has continued unabated.

And really had we strongly objected every day it might not have changed much.

So, if it wouldn't change much why wouldn't you do it anyway? At least that way your conscience is clear and you can live with the fact that you did the right thing even if your protestations were ignored.

Qualified in the sense we've supported Israel's right to defence itself, but also called for more aid, call for limits on how Israel acts. Yes they could have done more, but that may not work and indeed may reduce whatever influence one has on Israel. I can't say I'm especially worried about acting in a manner that one might consider imbues one with a sense of virtue in this, diplomatic missions/ethics, these are often murky waters, and those claiming to have a purity to their ideas are often among the sicker fucks to be found

[Hugo]

Qualified support is an odd thing to label complicit.

In what way has it been qualified? I would say that the UK (and west more generally) has been pretty unequivocal in its support of Israel. Certainly the flow of arms into Israel - that end up destroying homes and taking lives in Gaza - has continued unabated.

And really had we strongly objected every day it might not have changed much.

So, if it wouldn't change much why wouldn't you do it anyway? At least that way your conscience is clear and you can live with the fact that you did the right thing even if your protestations were ignored.

Qualified in the sense we've supported Israel's right to defence itself, but also called for more aid, call for limits on how Israel acts. Yes they could have done more, but that may not work and indeed may reduce whatever influence one has on Israel. I can't say I'm especially worried about acting in a manner that one might consider imbues one with a sense of virtue in this, diplomatic missions/ethics, these are often murky waters, and those claiming to have a purity to their ideas are often among the sicker fucks to be found

Wouldn't the "sicker fucks" be the ones doing the killing rather than those who are calling for it to stop? I mean, maybe I'm missing your point but that just reads like textbook gaslighting.

As for the purity, I don't think its especially noble or virtuous to not want to see people (especially women & children) suffer. I'd think its the default for most people rather than some virtue signalling endeavour. Basic human decency.

[Hugo]

Or as Charlotte Church puts it, "its not radical to say stop bombing children".