The Catch All Rugby Financial Crisis Thread

[Jim Lahey]

-Piss-spreys reporting more than a £2m loss.
-Scarlets around the same.
-Ulster in the shit after losing 700k from the La Rochelle home game last season, losing Kingspan as a kit and stadium sponsor in what was allegedly a very generous package, axing a load of players at the end of the season etc.
-3x English clubs disappearing last season.

Who else is in the shit? And is the solution more or less sugar daddies?

Discuss.

[inactionman]

-Piss-spreys reporting more than a £2m loss.
-Scarlets around the same.
-Ulster in the shit after losing 700k from the La Rochelle home game last season, losing Kingspan as a kit and stadium sponsor in what was allegedly a very generous package, axing a load of players at the end of the season etc.
-3x English clubs disappearing last season.

Who else is in the shit? And is the solution more or less sugar daddies?

Discuss.

We need the Irish tax breaks to keep the wages down

In all seriousness,, covid etc hit a lot of businesses and - although in no way the sole cause of much of this - it has shown just how hand-to-mouth and financially stretched a lot of rugby clubs are.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

The clubs and unions need to stop spending such a high % of revenues on wages. They're refusing to follow a sensible business model and then object to not having enough money.

[Camroc2]

The IRFU will have Ulster's back in the long term.

They are currently cleaning the Stygian stables, and when that is done will finance the rebuilding.

[Uncle fester]

The clubs and unions need to stop spending such a high % of revenues on wages. They're refusing to follow a sensible business model and then object to not having enough money.

And expect to be bailed out.

[Enzedder]

Talking to one of the local club Presidents recently and he said that the Waikato Union is looking to play at one of the club grounds to avoid the cost of hiring FMG stadium.

Add to that the fact that TV coverage is going to be drastically reduced so that Sky can save costs, and we must conclude that semi-professionalism in the third level of NZ Rugby is nearly done. I can see it being amateur within one or two years. Will any overseas clubs step in and pinch the players? Will they have the money?

[JM2K6]

[Jim Lahey]

Talking to one of the local club Presidents recently and he said that the Waikato Union is looking to play at one of the club grounds to avoid the cost of hiring FMG stadium.

Add to that the fact that TV coverage is going to be drastically reduced so that Sky can save costs, and we must conclude that semi-professionalism in the third level of NZ Rugby is nearly done. I can see it being amateur within one or two years. Will any overseas clubs step in and pinch the players? Will they have the money?

I never understood the Kiwi rugby business model.

I remember watching NPC games early in the morning as a teenager on Sky, and seeing 90% empty stadiums. The rugby was great tbf, but seemed like the general public didn't give a shit.

Think Super Rugby was a lot better attended, but never sell out games, which I found strange given the popularity of the sport there.

In Ireland, Ulser used to comfortably get 15-16k for their home matches up until the Paddy Jackson debacle, then I think its fallen down by a few k due to a lot of people being pissed off at how the organisation handled the situation, the rapid decline of the team in general, and then Ulster jacking up prices to cover the shortfall.

Leinster and Munster I'd imagine would hit 17k per game. Not sure about Connacht but the Sportsground always seems packed, albeit its a tiny stadium but usually a great atmosphere.

[clydecloggie]

All English Premiership clubs reporting a loss, apparently. Saw a post on Elon Musk's nazi circle jerk platform earlier today but can't be arsed to dreg it up again.

[Ymx]

Talking to one of the local club Presidents recently and he said that the Waikato Union is looking to play at one of the club grounds to avoid the cost of hiring FMG stadium.

Add to that the fact that TV coverage is going to be drastically reduced so that Sky can save costs, and we must conclude that semi-professionalism in the third level of NZ Rugby is nearly done. I can see it being amateur within one or two years. Will any overseas clubs step in and pinch the players? Will they have the money?

I never understood the Kiwi rugby business model.

I remember watching NPC games early in the morning as a teenager on Sky, and seeing 90% empty stadiums. The rugby was great tbf, but seemed like the general public didn't give a shit.

Think Super Rugby was a lot better attended, but never sell out games, which I found strange given the popularity of the sport there.

In Ireland, Ulser used to comfortably get 15-16k for their home matches up until the Paddy Jackson debacle, then I think its fallen down by a few k due to a lot of people being pissed off at how the organisation handled the situation, the rapid decline of the team in general, and then Ulster jacking up prices to cover the shortfall.

Leinster and Munster I'd imagine would hit 17k per game. Not sure about Connacht but the Sportsground always seems packed, albeit its a tiny stadium but usually a great atmosphere.

Everyone watches it at home. It was all about TV revenue.

The early days of Supe were good. Super 12.
NPC used to be pretty well attended until Supe.
And then it was the era of home watching it on large screen.

Then again I left about 25 years ago, so what would I know.

[Niegs]

They could start saving by not handing out free flags.

[Guy Smiley]

Talking to one of the local club Presidents recently and he said that the Waikato Union is looking to play at one of the club grounds to avoid the cost of hiring FMG stadium.

Add to that the fact that TV coverage is going to be drastically reduced so that Sky can save costs, and we must conclude that semi-professionalism in the third level of NZ Rugby is nearly done. I can see it being amateur within one or two years. Will any overseas clubs step in and pinch the players? Will they have the money?

I never understood the Kiwi rugby business model.

I remember watching NPC games early in the morning as a teenager on Sky, and seeing 90% empty stadiums. The rugby was great tbf, but seemed like the general public didn't give a shit.

Think Super Rugby was a lot better attended, but never sell out games, which I found strange given the popularity of the sport there.

In Ireland, Ulser used to comfortably get 15-16k for their home matches up until the Paddy Jackson debacle, then I think its fallen down by a few k due to a lot of people being pissed off at how the organisation handled the situation, the rapid decline of the team in general, and then Ulster jacking up prices to cover the shortfall.

Leinster and Munster I'd imagine would hit 17k per game. Not sure about Connacht but the Sportsground always seems packed, albeit its a tiny stadium but usually a great atmosphere.

It's a common misconception... crowd numbers can be on par with a lot of NH fixtures but those numbers get lost in the large stadia we use, and we use those because we don't have the population base to support a multitude of smaller grounds with decent hosting facilities including the much needed broadcast capacity. As Enz points out, the unions are now facing difficulties meeting the fees to use the bigger grounds and are looking at playing home games away from the more familiar large grounds. Wellington's union voiced concerns on this line earlier this year suggesting they were looking at hosting Super Rugby games for the Hurricanes away from Wellington and the expensive to hire Caketin.

We get a show here that features schoolboy rugby... First XV. The crowds and passion at those games are phenomenal. Grass banks and a single grandstand completely jammed. Fucking good rugby, too.

[Gumboot]

It's a common misconception... crowd numbers can be on par with a lot of NH fixtures but those numbers get lost in the large stadia we use, and we use those because we don't have the population base to support a multitude of smaller grounds with decent hosting facilities including the much needed broadcast capacity. As Enz points out, the unions are now facing difficulties meeting the fees to use the bigger grounds and are looking at playing home games away from the more familiar large grounds. Wellington's union voiced concerns on this line earlier this year suggesting they were looking at hosting Super Rugby games for the Hurricanes away from Wellington and the expensive to hire Caketin.

We get a show here that features schoolboy rugby... First XV. The crowds and passion at those games are phenomenal. Grass banks and a single grandstand completely jammed. Fucking good rugby, too.

First XV footy doesn't really compare to the pro/semi-pro game, though. There's pretty much a large "captive" audience of schoolkids and their rellies at every game. Spectators don't have to pay for admission. And they don't have the option of watching multiple school games live on telly from the comfort of their sofas every weekend.

[lemonhead]

Talking to one of the local club Presidents recently and he said that the Waikato Union is looking to play at one of the club grounds to avoid the cost of hiring FMG stadium.

Add to that the fact that TV coverage is going to be drastically reduced so that Sky can save costs, and we must conclude that semi-professionalism in the third level of NZ Rugby is nearly done. I can see it being amateur within one or two years. Will any overseas clubs step in and pinch the players? Will they have the money?

I never understood the Kiwi rugby business model.

I remember watching NPC games early in the morning as a teenager on Sky, and seeing 90% empty stadiums. The rugby was great tbf, but seemed like the general public didn't give a shit.

Think Super Rugby was a lot better attended, but never sell out games, which I found strange given the popularity of the sport there.

In Ireland, Ulser used to comfortably get 15-16k for their home matches up until the Paddy Jackson debacle, then I think its fallen down by a few k due to a lot of people being pissed off at how the organisation handled the situation, the rapid decline of the team in general, and then Ulster jacking up prices to cover the shortfall.

Leinster and Munster I'd imagine would hit 17k per game. Not sure about Connacht but the Sportsground always seems packed, albeit its a tiny stadium but usually a great atmosphere.

It's a common misconception... crowd numbers can be on par with a lot of NH fixtures but those numbers get lost in the large stadia we use, and we use those because we don't have the population base to support a multitude of smaller grounds with decent hosting facilities including the much needed broadcast capacity. As Enz points out, the unions are now facing difficulties meeting the fees to use the bigger grounds and are looking at playing home games away from the more familiar large grounds. Wellington's union voiced concerns on this line earlier this year suggesting they were looking at hosting Super Rugby games for the Hurricanes away from Wellington and the expensive to hire Caketin.

We get a show here that features schoolboy rugby... First XV. The crowds and passion at those games are phenomenal. Grass banks and a single grandstand completely jammed. Fucking good rugby, too.

Very fond memories of watching us play a pool game in Rotorua back in 11. As you say, place packed to the non existant rafters and almost felt like the 80s again, just for a while.

Wish we'd more of it.

[Jethro]

Talking to one of the local club Presidents recently and he said that the Waikato Union is looking to play at one of the club grounds to avoid the cost of hiring FMG stadium.

Add to that the fact that TV coverage is going to be drastically reduced so that Sky can save costs, and we must conclude that semi-professionalism in the third level of NZ Rugby is nearly done. I can see it being amateur within one or two years. Will any overseas clubs step in and pinch the players? Will they have the money?

Problematic times for NZ Rugby. They need the NPC but is proving difficult to finance (mainly due to the NZRU fracking around with it rather than sticking to some winning formulas - for example Saturday arvo games). Some of the Unions are declaring moderate profits year in year out, and are doing so without ramping up their wages bill and with some out of the box marketing.

Hate to say it but other sports are expanding in the NZ market; "A" League second team and touted NRL expansion team (though the NRL are doing their best to frack up expansion plans). Thankfully AFL hasn't taken off, those guys really know how to stick the landing - GWS anyone.

Are we starting to talk private ownership in the NPC, with the Big End of town having a go?

Could be worse I guess, reports are around 80% of Premier League Football teams are running at huge loses - players salaries I would imagine really impacting the bottom line.

How about a good old fashion long Bokke tour to top up the coffers

[fishfoodie]

Talking to one of the local club Presidents recently and he said that the Waikato Union is looking to play at one of the club grounds to avoid the cost of hiring FMG stadium.

Add to that the fact that TV coverage is going to be drastically reduced so that Sky can save costs, and we must conclude that semi-professionalism in the third level of NZ Rugby is nearly done. I can see it being amateur within one or two years. Will any overseas clubs step in and pinch the players? Will they have the money?

I never understood the Kiwi rugby business model.

I remember watching NPC games early in the morning as a teenager on Sky, and seeing 90% empty stadiums. The rugby was great tbf, but seemed like the general public didn't give a shit.

Think Super Rugby was a lot better attended, but never sell out games, which I found strange given the popularity of the sport there.

In Ireland, Ulser used to comfortably get 15-16k for their home matches up until the Paddy Jackson debacle, then I think its fallen down by a few k due to a lot of people being pissed off at how the organisation handled the situation, the rapid decline of the team in general, and then Ulster jacking up prices to cover the shortfall.

Leinster and Munster I'd imagine would hit 17k per game. Not sure about Connacht but the Sportsground always seems packed, albeit its a tiny stadium but usually a great atmosphere.

The next phase of the re-development has already started, as the tell tale piles of dirt behind the clan terrace showed at the last home game.

The goal is a 12k capacity, which sounds about right for a sustainable level.

https://www.connachtrugby.ie/news/conna ... nd/bp1089/

Connacht & Leinster have the same problem in that they both play their matches in grounds they don't own, & as tenants have to jump thru more hoops to get changes made, but the great locations makes this extra crap bearable.

[clydecloggie]

The exact same thing holds Glasgow back. Scotstoun is owned by the city council and has an athletics track, so the short end stands can only be temporary (as they are on top of said track) In the 14/15 heydays capacity was temproarily increased to 10k but standard capacity can never be more than just under 8k. Glasgow has the odd situation in that it has a few really big stadiums like Hampden, Ibrox and Parkhead and some sub-10k places but nothing in the 15k range. There's a gap to fill there but the Warriors/SRU haven't managed to put a sustainable business case together for it.

[Biffer]

The exact same thing holds Glasgow back. Scotstoun is owned by the city council and has an athletics track, so the short end stands can only be temporary (as they are on top of said track) In the 14/15 heydays capacity was temproarily increased to 10k but standard capacity can never be more than just under 8k. Glasgow has the odd situation in that it has a few really big stadiums like Hampden, Ibrox and Parkhead and some sub-10k places but nothing in the 15k range. There's a gap to fill there but the Warriors/SRU haven't managed to put a sustainable business case together for it.

Yeah, it’s really difficult because rugby and football is the same stadium doesn’t really work.

Edinburgh are in a good position now as the stadium is owned by the SRU and we can expand if needs be up to the 12-15k level if we need to in the future. Finding somewhere for the SRU to own and develop in a decent location in Glasgow is very hard, before you even get to the question of finance. Scotstoun isn’t ideal although it was a good step up from previous grounds. There’s a nice big bit of unused space on the other side of the river kelvin from the riverside museum, a few minutes walk from Patrick railway station, pubs on Dumbarton Road which would be ideal for a built to order stadium.

[fishfoodie]

The exact same thing holds Glasgow back. Scotstoun is owned by the city council and has an athletics track, so the short end stands can only be temporary (as they are on top of said track) In the 14/15 heydays capacity was temproarily increased to 10k but standard capacity can never be more than just under 8k. Glasgow has the odd situation in that it has a few really big stadiums like Hampden, Ibrox and Parkhead and some sub-10k places but nothing in the 15k range. There's a gap to fill there but the Warriors/SRU haven't managed to put a sustainable business case together for it.

Yeah, it’s really difficult because rugby and football is the same stadium doesn’t really work.

Edinburgh are in a good position now as the stadium is owned by the SRU and we can expand if needs be up to the 12-15k level if we need to in the future. Finding somewhere for the SRU to own and develop in a decent location in Glasgow is very hard, before you even get to the question of finance. Scotstoun isn’t ideal although it was a good step up from previous grounds. There’s a nice big bit of unused space on the other side of the river kelvin from the riverside museum, a few minutes walk from Patrick railway station, pubs on Dumbarton Road which would be ideal for a built to order stadium.

Bord Na gCon* aren't bad landlords for Connacht, as their meetings don't clash with the Rugby, & the size of the greyhound track doesn't constrain the pitch the way a running track might, they actually are happy to have a tenant bringing in money & sustaining the facility.

Leinster have a different issue, because while the RDS is a location that can't be beat, it's run by an incredibly conservative bunch of people, who only use the pitch a few weeks of the year, so don't mind that the main stand is falling apart. The RDS don't need Leinster, so they had to be gently cajoled into redeveloping the stands; there is a plan, but it'll be race between whether Leinster get new stands, or the sun dies first.

So if you're Glasgow & you want a decent facility, your choices are grey field site, partner up with a greyhound track, or more to the burbs


* Semi-State that runs Greyhound racing

[Biffer]

The exact same thing holds Glasgow back. Scotstoun is owned by the city council and has an athletics track, so the short end stands can only be temporary (as they are on top of said track) In the 14/15 heydays capacity was temproarily increased to 10k but standard capacity can never be more than just under 8k. Glasgow has the odd situation in that it has a few really big stadiums like Hampden, Ibrox and Parkhead and some sub-10k places but nothing in the 15k range. There's a gap to fill there but the Warriors/SRU haven't managed to put a sustainable business case together for it.

Yeah, it’s really difficult because rugby and football is the same stadium doesn’t really work.

Edinburgh are in a good position now as the stadium is owned by the SRU and we can expand if needs be up to the 12-15k level if we need to in the future. Finding somewhere for the SRU to own and develop in a decent location in Glasgow is very hard, before you even get to the question of finance. Scotstoun isn’t ideal although it was a good step up from previous grounds. There’s a nice big bit of unused space on the other side of the river kelvin from the riverside museum, a few minutes walk from Patrick railway station, pubs on Dumbarton Road which would be ideal for a built to order stadium.

Bord Na gCon* aren't bad landlords for Connacht, as their meetings don't clash with the Rugby, & the size of the greyhound track doesn't constrain the pitch the way a running track might, they actually are happy to have a tenant bringing in money & sustaining the facility.

Leinster have a different issue, because while the RDS is a location that can't be beat, it's run by an incredibly conservative bunch of people, who only use the pitch a few weeks of the year, so don't mind that the main stand is falling apart. The RDS don't need Leinster, so they had to be gently cajoled into redeveloping the stands; there is a plan, but it'll be race between whether Leinster get new stands, or the sun dies first.

So if you're Glasgow & you want a decent facility, your choices are grey field site, partner up with a greyhound track, or more to the burbs


* Semi-State that runs Greyhound racing

That’s the thing about Glasgow as a city though - there are a lot of brownfield sites around the city, so there are options about redevelopment. It’s money that’s the problem.

[fishfoodie]

Yeah, it’s really difficult because rugby and football is the same stadium doesn’t really work.

Edinburgh are in a good position now as the stadium is owned by the SRU and we can expand if needs be up to the 12-15k level if we need to in the future. Finding somewhere for the SRU to own and develop in a decent location in Glasgow is very hard, before you even get to the question of finance. Scotstoun isn’t ideal although it was a good step up from previous grounds. There’s a nice big bit of unused space on the other side of the river kelvin from the riverside museum, a few minutes walk from Patrick railway station, pubs on Dumbarton Road which would be ideal for a built to order stadium.

Bord Na gCon* aren't bad landlords for Connacht, as their meetings don't clash with the Rugby, & the size of the greyhound track doesn't constrain the pitch the way a running track might, they actually are happy to have a tenant bringing in money & sustaining the facility.

Leinster have a different issue, because while the RDS is a location that can't be beat, it's run by an incredibly conservative bunch of people, who only use the pitch a few weeks of the year, so don't mind that the main stand is falling apart. The RDS don't need Leinster, so they had to be gently cajoled into redeveloping the stands; there is a plan, but it'll be race between whether Leinster get new stands, or the sun dies first.

So if you're Glasgow & you want a decent facility, your choices are grey field site, partner up with a greyhound track, or more to the burbs


* Semi-State that runs Greyhound racing

That’s the thing about Glasgow as a city though - there are a lot of brownfield sites around the city, so there are options about redevelopment. It’s money that’s the problem.

Yeah, that's what I'd expect of a City with a long manufacturing history, & turning one of them into a decent leisure facility will be a lot easier/cheaper than turning it into housing.

What you really need is a millionaire with a social conscience & who likes Rugby; there must be some in Scotland ?

[Dan54]

Everyone watches it at home. It was all about TV revenue.

The early days of Supe were good. Super 12.
NPC used to be pretty well attended until Supe.
And then it was the era of home watching it on large screen.

Then again I left about 25 years ago, so what would I know.

Kind of a 2 edged sword thing TV. Money from it good, but by same token TV want games played at night which tends to be not popular with crowds, get's a bit cool temp wise

[Slick]

Bord Na gCon* aren't bad landlords for Connacht, as their meetings don't clash with the Rugby, & the size of the greyhound track doesn't constrain the pitch the way a running track might, they actually are happy to have a tenant bringing in money & sustaining the facility.

Leinster have a different issue, because while the RDS is a location that can't be beat, it's run by an incredibly conservative bunch of people, who only use the pitch a few weeks of the year, so don't mind that the main stand is falling apart. The RDS don't need Leinster, so they had to be gently cajoled into redeveloping the stands; there is a plan, but it'll be race between whether Leinster get new stands, or the sun dies first.

So if you're Glasgow & you want a decent facility, your choices are grey field site, partner up with a greyhound track, or more to the burbs


* Semi-State that runs Greyhound racing

That’s the thing about Glasgow as a city though - there are a lot of brownfield sites around the city, so there are options about redevelopment. It’s money that’s the problem.

Yeah, that's what I'd expect of a City with a long manufacturing history, & turning one of them into a decent leisure facility will be a lot easier/cheaper than turning it into housing.

What you really need is a millionaire with a social conscience & who likes Rugby; there must be some in Scotland ?

First bit - Glasgow Council are unbelievably shite, even in a crowded field

Second bit - this has troubled me for a while, there are some very wealthy people in Scotland that seem to like rugby, but as far as I know no one has ever seriously looked at it. I wonder if the SRU has ever approached any of them, or proposed a consortium, no idea

[Biffer]

That’s the thing about Glasgow as a city though - there are a lot of brownfield sites around the city, so there are options about redevelopment. It’s money that’s the problem.

Yeah, that's what I'd expect of a City with a long manufacturing history, & turning one of them into a decent leisure facility will be a lot easier/cheaper than turning it into housing.

What you really need is a millionaire with a social conscience & who likes Rugby; there must be some in Scotland ?

First bit - Glasgow Council are unbelievably shite, even in a crowded field

Second bit - this has troubled me for a while, there are some very wealthy people in Scotland that seem to like rugby, but as far as I know no one has ever seriously looked at it. I wonder if the SRU has ever approached any of them, or proposed a consortium, no idea

There were some guys interested and in discussion with the SRU about Edinburgh many years ago but a deal couldn't be reached. The bloke in charge of Aberdeen Asset Management was also interested for a while. But it needs more of an Ian Wood / Glenn Gordon type.