Kicking off in Israel

[Blackmac]

Palestinians have legitimate grievances with Israel but not so sure about Hezbollah. Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon in 2000 but Hezbollah continue to fire thousands of rockets into northern Israeli towns. Only reason there hasn’t been scores of civilian casualties is cos the Israelis have evacuated those northern towns, plus their missile defense is pretty good. Even so Hezbollah get “lucky” at times like a few months ago when one of their rockets exploded on a sports field killing children playing in a football match. They were also responsible for the bombing of the Jewish Community Centre in Buenos Aires that killed 85 people, and numerous other terrorist attacks. They appear to act as an Iranian/Syrian proxy and state within a state in Lebanon and have done immense harm to that country.

As devious and horrific as this attack is, it’s much more targeted than any other option.

In a war you can't target non combatants indiscriminately, you must ensure that civilians are not going to be injured.
Ergo this is a war crime according to members of the team that prosecuted Milosovic.

No comment on the indiscriminate rocket attacks on civilian areas. What is it, 8000 since the Hamas attack. Last count 43 innocent civilians, including 12 kids blown to bits in a play park. 60000 people forced from their homes. Your moral outrage is incredibly unbalanced.

[Yeeb]

Palestinians have legitimate grievances with Israel but not so sure about Hezbollah. Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon in 2000 but Hezbollah continue to fire thousands of rockets into northern Israeli towns. Only reason there hasn’t been scores of civilian casualties is cos the Israelis have evacuated those northern towns, plus their missile defense is pretty good. Even so Hezbollah get “lucky” at times like a few months ago when one of their rockets exploded on a sports field killing children playing in a football match. They were also responsible for the bombing of the Jewish Community Centre in Buenos Aires that killed 85 people, and numerous other terrorist attacks. They appear to act as an Iranian/Syrian proxy and state within a state in Lebanon and have done immense harm to that country.

As devious and horrific as this attack is, it’s much more targeted than any other option.

In a war you can't target non combatants indiscriminately, you must ensure that civilians are not going to be injured.
Ergo this is a war crime according to members of the team that prosecuted Milosovic.

Non combatants were not targeted , it was pretty much as targeted as possible? Far more targeted than say lobbing rockets or blowing up concerts / trucks used as weapons.
The children killed by the pagers and walkie talkies would be sadly merely considered collateral damage.

Added bonus for team Isreal that the hezbollah that were not killed merely lost both eyes or had their balls blown off like the chap on the hospital bed. Only a one time attack this though as would presume by now every bit of machinery owned by an anti Jew organisation would have been checked and audited now, the pagers then wallow talkies a day later is astoundingly devious and calculated and apparently successful.

[Yeeb]

Just had a thought - that poor unfortunate innocent who had his balls blown off, does that mean those 72 virgins would stay that way, or would he be regenerated in heaven ?

This is for him

[C69]

Palestinians have legitimate grievances with Israel but not so sure about Hezbollah. Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon in 2000 but Hezbollah continue to fire thousands of rockets into northern Israeli towns. Only reason there hasn’t been scores of civilian casualties is cos the Israelis have evacuated those northern towns, plus their missile defense is pretty good. Even so Hezbollah get “lucky” at times like a few months ago when one of their rockets exploded on a sports field killing children playing in a football match. They were also responsible for the bombing of the Jewish Community Centre in Buenos Aires that killed 85 people, and numerous other terrorist attacks. They appear to act as an Iranian/Syrian proxy and state within a state in Lebanon and have done immense harm to that country.

As devious and horrific as this attack is, it’s much more targeted than any other option.

In a war you can't target non combatants indiscriminately, you must ensure that civilians are not going to be injured.
Ergo this is a war crime according to members of the team that prosecuted Milosovic.

They didn't target non combatants indiscriminately. These were Hezbollah devices. The pager attack saw 10 dead Hezbollah agents, out of 12 deaths (one was the little girl, I don't know who the last one was, it may have also been Hezbollah but not announced). There's not many attacks in war that get more targeted than that.

You also don't have to ensure that civilians will not be injured. There are absolutely limits on what you can do, but civilian injuries and deaths are recognised as unavoidable in warfare and are not war crimes.

As I pointed out, this was the opinion of one of he leading War Crimes prosecutors and he was pointing out the facts of the attacks.
Have a look at his Ch4 interview. It was discussing international law in relation to the threat to civilians of this type of attack.
Tell you what, I'll take the word of the lead prosecutor at Milosovic's trial and the chair of the Uyghur/China tribunal over some outraged internet warriors.

[I like neeps]

All well and good but war crimes only apply to the other team.

[C69]

All well and good but war crimes only apply to the other team.

A pox on both houses

[Raggs]

Pox on both houses, bibi, hezbollah and hamas, but I just want to point out that there was a big old silence on this thread on July 27th and the following days.

[Uncle fester]

All well and good but war crimes only apply to the other team.

Call me crazy but actual proper states using terror groups as their moral benchmark is asking for trouble.

[Uncle fester]

Pox on both houses, bibi, hezbollah and hamas, but I just want to point out that there was a big old silence on this thread on July 27th and the following days.

What happened then?

Thread has been quiet over the summer and there's only so many times you can state that what is happening there is outrageous.

[epwc]

there's only so many times you can state that what is happening there is outrageous.

Yep

[Blackmac]

Pox on both houses, bibi, hezbollah and hamas, but I just want to point out that there was a big old silence on this thread on July 27th and the following days.

I was just going to point out the same thing. Some war crimes bad, other war crimes good. It's pathetic.

[Blackmac]

All well and good but war crimes only apply to the other team.

Call me crazy but actual proper states using terror groups as their moral benchmark is asking for trouble.

How do they deal with it then. When a terror group hides in plain sight in among a civilian population that supports and facilitates them. Turn the other cheek??
There never has and never will be a clean answer to that but by fuck the Israelis have come pretty close with this.

[SaintK]

All well and good but war crimes only apply to the other team.

Call me crazy but actual proper states using terror groups as their moral benchmark is asking for trouble.

How do they deal with it then. When a terror group hides in plain sight in among a civilian population that supports and facilitates them. Turn the other cheek??
There never has and never will be a clean answer to that but by fuck the Israelis have come pretty close with this.

Is Netanyahu doing it to appease the ultra's in the coalition to keep himself in power and would peace talks have got further if he wasn't there?

[Yeeb]

Pox on both houses, bibi, hezbollah and hamas, but I just want to point out that there was a big old silence on this thread on July 27th and the following days.

I was just going to point out the same thing. Some war crimes bad, other war crimes good. It's pathetic.

Aka Irish posters on internet forums syndrome

[Calculon]

No. For a start, Hezbollah are also a legitimate political party in Lebanon, these attacks have killed scores of non combatants, unaffiliated civilians, and children.

It's a terror attack.

Designated terrorist organisation?

I said "also". It's not exactly uncommon throughout history for there to be paramilitary groups and political wings.

Also wanted to row back a bit on "scores" as that was overstating it - I don't think the actual death toll is that high yet. A lot of very serious injuries, no doubt.

Hezbollah Deputy Secretary General Naim Qassem:

We don't have a military wing and a political one; we don't have Hezbollah on one hand and the resistance party on the other

Every element of Hezbollah, from commanders to members as well as our various capabilities, are in the service of the resistance, and we have nothing but the resistance as a priority.

[laurent]

trying to calm things down.



bunch of cunts dicks and arseholes...

[Blackmac]

Pox on both houses, bibi, hezbollah and hamas, but I just want to point out that there was a big old silence on this thread on July 27th and the following days.

I was just going to point out the same thing. Some war crimes bad, other war crimes good. It's pathetic.

This was badly put, some bad, some not so bad.

[Blackmac]

Call me crazy but actual proper states using terror groups as their moral benchmark is asking for trouble.

How do they deal with it then. When a terror group hides in plain sight in among a civilian population that supports and facilitates them. Turn the other cheek??
There never has and never will be a clean answer to that but by fuck the Israelis have come pretty close with this.

Is Netanyahu doing it to appease the ultra's in the coalition to keep himself in power and would peace talks have got further if he wasn't there?

I really don't have a clue mate about the ultimate political picture. I despise the actions and reactions of both sides.

I'm just a thick ex cop with quite a simplistic view of the situation. I see that if the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah didn't exist, the region would probably exist quite peacefully. There would obviously be the odd skirmish involving settlers etc but generally the vast majority want to just get on with what they have. It might not be the perfect picture but ultimately better for everyone. Unfortunately the extremist groups will never allow that to happen because it's not in their interest, never more so ably demonstrated by Hamas and their refusal to hand over hostages when Israel have made it clear that is the ultimate requirement to end the war. Even though I think Israel's reaction to Hamas has been outrageously excessive, that why I will always err towards supporting their position.

[Uncle fester]

All well and good but war crimes only apply to the other team.

Call me crazy but actual proper states using terror groups as their moral benchmark is asking for trouble.

How do they deal with it then. When a terror group hides in plain sight in among a civilian population that supports and facilitates them. Turn the other cheek??
There never has and never will be a clean answer to that but by fuck the Israelis have come pretty close with this.

If only there were examples of terror groups being successfully quelled by Western nations that we could refer to...

[C69]

Pox on both houses, bibi, hezbollah and hamas, but I just want to point out that there was a big old silence on this thread on July 27th and the following days.

I was just going to point out the same thing. Some war crimes bad, other war crimes good. It's pathetic.

This was badly put, some bad, some not so bad.

All war crimes bad imho as is the killing of civilians.
I hope that as may of the Israeli leaders are targeted and killed as the Hamas and Hezbollah leaders.

Cut the heads off the snakes of both sides.

[Guy Smiley]

How do they deal with it then. When a terror group hides in plain sight in among a civilian population that supports and facilitates them. Turn the other cheek??
There never has and never will be a clean answer to that but by fuck the Israelis have come pretty close with this.

Is Netanyahu doing it to appease the ultra's in the coalition to keep himself in power and would peace talks have got further if he wasn't there?

I really don't have a clue mate about the ultimate political picture. I despise the actions and reactions of both sides.

I'm just a thick ex cop with quite a simplistic view of the situation. I see that if the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah didn't exist, the region would probably exist quite peacefully. There would obviously be the odd skirmish involving settlers etc but generally the vast majority want to just get on with what they have. It might not be the perfect picture but ultimately better for everyone. Unfortunately the extremist groups will never allow that to happen because it's not in their interest, never more so ably demonstrated by Hamas and their refusal to hand over hostages when Israel have made it clear that is the ultimate requirement to end the war. Even though I think Israel's reaction to Hamas has been outrageously excessive, that why I will always err towards supporting their position.

Another simplistic take on the situation would be to hand the land given to the fledgling state of Israel and all it has taken since back to the people who were inhabiting it at the time.

You can easily see how impractical that idea is... and how simplistic takes fall short.

The Palestinians have been occupied, oppressed and subjected to all of the brutality and inhumane injustices that the word 'apartheid' encompasses. Israel practises apartheid... we know this. The act of occupation is over 70 years old now... so at least 3 generations of Palestinians have been born into that racially driven hate climate. Their land continues to be stolen even now, during this conflict.

In that climate, it is at least understandable that desperation leads to violence and extremism. I abhor the violence carried out by both sides and it's an absolute stain on humanity that for all our supposed development and sophistication as a species, we find ourselves drawn to one side or the other here to cheer from the safety of our armchairs.

Hamas is a major part of the problem, for sure.

So is this current Israeli government. Why give them a free pass?

[Guy Smiley]

Pox on both houses, bibi, hezbollah and hamas, but I just want to point out that there was a big old silence on this thread on July 27th and the following days.

Others have asked already and no reply from you... what happened on July 27th that stands out in the horror?

[Blackmac]

Is Netanyahu doing it to appease the ultra's in the coalition to keep himself in power and would peace talks have got further if he wasn't there?

I really don't have a clue mate about the ultimate political picture. I despise the actions and reactions of both sides.

I'm just a thick ex cop with quite a simplistic view of the situation. I see that if the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah didn't exist, the region would probably exist quite peacefully. There would obviously be the odd skirmish involving settlers etc but generally the vast majority want to just get on with what they have. It might not be the perfect picture but ultimately better for everyone. Unfortunately the extremist groups will never allow that to happen because it's not in their interest, never more so ably demonstrated by Hamas and their refusal to hand over hostages when Israel have made it clear that is the ultimate requirement to end the war. Even though I think Israel's reaction to Hamas has been outrageously excessive, that why I will always err towards supporting their position.

Another simplistic take on the situation would be to hand the land given to the fledgling state of Israel and all it has taken since back to the people who were inhabiting it at the time.

You can easily see how impractical that idea is... and how simplistic takes fall short.

The Palestinians have been occupied, oppressed and subjected to all of the brutality and inhumane injustices that the word 'apartheid' encompasses. Israel practises apartheid... we know this. The act of occupation is over 70 years old now... so at least 3 generations of Palestinians have been born into that racially driven hate climate. Their land continues to be stolen even now, during this conflict.

In that climate, it is at least understandable that desperation leads to violence and extremism. I abhor the violence carried out by both sides and it's an absolute stain on humanity that for all our supposed development and sophistication as a species, we find ourselves drawn to one side or the other here to cheer from the safety of our armchairs.

Hamas is a major part of the problem, for sure.

So is this current Israeli government. Why give them a free pass?

I certainly haven't given them a free pass in any of my comments.

[Sandstorm]

Pox on both houses, bibi, hezbollah and hamas, but I just want to point out that there was a big old silence on this thread on July 27th and the following days.

Others have asked already and no reply from you... what happened on July 27th that stands out in the horror?

I’d like to know too please, Raggs.

[Raggs]

It was an attack on a football field, killing a dozen kids and injuring another 40+ (vast majority were kids, since they were playing). Passed without comment here, which is more my point, rather than the specifics of the attack. Absolutely zero military relevance, none even claimed it to be. No suggestion of it being used as weapon storage etc etc.

[Guy Smiley]

It was an attack on a football field, killing a dozen kids and injuring another 40+ (vast majority were kids, since they were playing). Passed without comment here, which is more my point, rather than the specifics of the attack. Absolutely zero military relevance, none even claimed it to be. No suggestion of it being used as weapon storage etc etc.

Oh...


how many kids have been killed within Gaza since October last year, do you think?

[Calculon]

It was an attack on a football field, killing a dozen kids and injuring another 40+ (vast majority were kids, since they were playing). Passed without comment here, which is more my point, rather than the specifics of the attack. Absolutely zero military relevance, none even claimed it to be. No suggestion of it being used as weapon storage etc etc.

Oh...


how many kids have been killed within Gaza since October last year, do you think?

I didn't comment on it because I knew this would be the response

[Guy Smiley]

It was an attack on a football field, killing a dozen kids and injuring another 40+ (vast majority were kids, since they were playing). Passed without comment here, which is more my point, rather than the specifics of the attack. Absolutely zero military relevance, none even claimed it to be. No suggestion of it being used as weapon storage etc etc.

Oh...


how many kids have been killed within Gaza since October last year, do you think?

I didn't comment on it because I knew this would be the response

Well, what's the scale of outrage we're supposed to express?

How many Palestinian kids' lives equals one Israeli kid's life?

[Uncle fester]

It was an attack on a football field, killing a dozen kids and injuring another 40+ (vast majority were kids, since they were playing). Passed without comment here, which is more my point, rather than the specifics of the attack. Absolutely zero military relevance, none even claimed it to be. No suggestion of it being used as weapon storage etc etc.

I'm struggling to see what point you might be making other than "but anti-Semitism"?

[JM2K6]

It was an attack on a football field, killing a dozen kids and injuring another 40+ (vast majority were kids, since they were playing). Passed without comment here, which is more my point, rather than the specifics of the attack. Absolutely zero military relevance, none even claimed it to be. No suggestion of it being used as weapon storage etc etc.

One in a long list of horrors, no?

The thousands of booby trapped communication devices getting blown up in public receive a lot more attention for very obvious reasons.

1) It's a novel attack method with a lot of concerning consequences
2) It's a simultaneous and extremely public bombing campaign with a lot of footage
3) Israel are rightly held to a higher standard than a terrorist regime

Frankly 1) alone would be enough explanation for why this one is getting attention here.

[Calculon]

Oh...


how many kids have been killed within Gaza since October last year, do you think?

I didn't comment on it because I knew this would be the response

Well, what's the scale of outrage we're supposed to express?

How many Palestinian kids' lives equals one Israeli kid's life?

This was an attack by Hezbollah, not Hamas, from Lebanon, a country who Israel does not occupy. It was big news at the time partly, or mostly because of speculation of what form the Israeli retaliation would take. I have no expectations regarding how much outrage, or for whom you should feel it

[Raggs]

It was an attack on a football field, killing a dozen kids and injuring another 40+ (vast majority were kids, since they were playing). Passed without comment here, which is more my point, rather than the specifics of the attack. Absolutely zero military relevance, none even claimed it to be. No suggestion of it being used as weapon storage etc etc.

I'm struggling to see what point you might be making other than "but anti-Semitism"?

As I stated to start, it was more to those claiming a pox on both houses, but only ever raising the atrocities committed by one group. It's not like at the time there was a load of other stuff going on. Just seems like a bit of lip service to try and seem reasonable. I understand that far more children in Gaza have been killed.

Whatever, I'll duck out of this thread again, it's not good for me.

[Uncle fester]

If that's all you've got, you're not going to get much response to such simplistic observations.

[JM2K6]

I didn't comment on it because I knew this would be the response

Well, what's the scale of outrage we're supposed to express?

How many Palestinian kids' lives equals one Israeli kid's life?

This was an attack by Hezbollah, not Hamas, from Lebanon, a country who Israel does not occupy. It was big news at the time partly, or mostly because of speculation of what form the Israeli retaliation would take. I have no expectations regarding how much outrage, or for whom you should feel it

In fairness we don't often talk much about Israel's attacks on Lebanon either.

I know, it's Wikipedia, but:

As of 5 July 2024, Israel reports having killed approximately 366 Hezbollah operatives with over 100 Lebanese civilians confirmed killed. According to the UN, over 90,000 people in Lebanon have been forced to flee their homes, while in Israel, 60,000 civilians have evacuated.[20] Israel and Hezbollah have maintained their attacks at a level that causes significant harm without escalating into a full-scale war.[21] From 7 October 2023 to 21 June 2024, Israel attacked Lebanon 6,124 times. Hezbollah and other Lebanese forces attacked Israel 1,258 times.[22]

Pretty much all of those passed without comment here, because they were (to us) unremarkable.

[JM2K6]

It was an attack on a football field, killing a dozen kids and injuring another 40+ (vast majority were kids, since they were playing). Passed without comment here, which is more my point, rather than the specifics of the attack. Absolutely zero military relevance, none even claimed it to be. No suggestion of it being used as weapon storage etc etc.

I'm struggling to see what point you might be making other than "but anti-Semitism"?

As I stated to start, it was more to those claiming a pox on both houses, but only ever raising the atrocities committed by one group. It's not like at the time there was a load of other stuff going on. Just seems like a bit of lip service to try and seem reasonable. I understand that far more children in Gaza have been killed.

Whatever, I'll duck out of this thread again, it's not good for me.

I don't want to seem like I'm baiting you, but your "a pox on both houses" was "Bibi, Hamas, and Hezbollah". Why just Bibi? It's not just one man - the Israeli government is chock full of extremist psychopaths, and I'm also not sure why Mossad and (parts of) the IDF escape this.

When such a large part of the Israeli governing body has blood on its hands, I don't think this is something that can be pinned on one man.

[Calculon]

Well, what's the scale of outrage we're supposed to express?

How many Palestinian kids' lives equals one Israeli kid's life?

This was an attack by Hezbollah, not Hamas, from Lebanon, a country who Israel does not occupy. It was big news at the time partly, or mostly because of speculation of what form the Israeli retaliation would take. I have no expectations regarding how much outrage, or for whom you should feel it

In fairness we don't often talk much about Israel's attacks on Lebanon either.

I know, it's Wikipedia, but:

As of 5 July 2024, Israel reports having killed approximately 366 Hezbollah operatives with over 100 Lebanese civilians confirmed killed. According to the UN, over 90,000 people in Lebanon have been forced to flee their homes, while in Israel, 60,000 civilians have evacuated.[20] Israel and Hezbollah have maintained their attacks at a level that causes significant harm without escalating into a full-scale war.[21] From 7 October 2023 to 21 June 2024, Israel attacked Lebanon 6,124 times. Hezbollah and other Lebanese forces attacked Israel 1,258 times.[22]

Pretty much all of those passed without comment here, because they were (to us) unremarkable.

this attack was front page news, i was surprised it was not commented on here

[JM2K6]

This was an attack by Hezbollah, not Hamas, from Lebanon, a country who Israel does not occupy. It was big news at the time partly, or mostly because of speculation of what form the Israeli retaliation would take. I have no expectations regarding how much outrage, or for whom you should feel it

In fairness we don't often talk much about Israel's attacks on Lebanon either.

I know, it's Wikipedia, but:

As of 5 July 2024, Israel reports having killed approximately 366 Hezbollah operatives with over 100 Lebanese civilians confirmed killed. According to the UN, over 90,000 people in Lebanon have been forced to flee their homes, while in Israel, 60,000 civilians have evacuated.[20] Israel and Hezbollah have maintained their attacks at a level that causes significant harm without escalating into a full-scale war.[21] From 7 October 2023 to 21 June 2024, Israel attacked Lebanon 6,124 times. Hezbollah and other Lebanese forces attacked Israel 1,258 times.[22]

Pretty much all of those passed without comment here, because they were (to us) unremarkable.

this attack was front page news, i was surprised it was not commented on here

I can assure you it wasn't front page news here

[Calculon]

In fairness we don't often talk much about Israel's attacks on Lebanon either.

I know, it's Wikipedia, but:



Pretty much all of those passed without comment here, because they were (to us) unremarkable.

this attack was front page news, i was surprised it was not commented on here

I can assure you it wasn't front page news here

I don't know where here is, but it was front page on https://www.bbc.co.uk/news for several days

[JM2K6]

this attack was front page news, i was surprised it was not commented on here

I can assure you it wasn't front page news here

I don't know where here is, but it was front page on https://www.bbc.co.uk/news for several days

That seems extremely unlikely tbh, given we had the election in July and how rare it is for any single international event to dominate the headlines for several days.

Front page of the BBC is usually breaking news. Front page of the papers is something else.

[Calculon]

I can assure you it wasn't front page news here

I don't know where here is, but it was front page on https://www.bbc.co.uk/news for several days

That seems extremely unlikely tbh, given we had the election in July and how rare it is for any single international event to dominate the headlines for several days.

Front page of the BBC is usually breaking news. Front page of the papers is something else.

that is the page where i became aware of the story and for at lest one day after the incident it was still on that page. If it is only me, raggs and blackmac that knew about it then i guess it was not such a big story as i thought.