Calculon wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 5:49 am
_Os_ wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:19 pm
People older than us who were adults back then that have been to Israel, have said apartheid in Israel is actually worse than it was in SA. Including SA Jews and Tutu. I thought that was hyperbolic when I was younger, but I now think my younger self was wrong. SAAF didn't bomb Soweto flat in revenge for any of the outrages: Amanzimtoti, Magoo's, Church Street, Saint James Church. You know all the names of the massacres I expect, like I do, we'll never forget them. There would've been total outrage from white South Africans if anything like that happened in reprisal, when death squads were discovered there was outrage suspects weren't being arrested and receiving a fair trial, this genocide stuff is alien.
But if we continue in this vein, do you think if the ANC did what Hamas did on October 7th, with people in Soweto out on the streets cheering the atrocities, there would have been a somewhat peaceful end to apartheid. The level of hate here is on another level compared to SA. In SA most people realised that they might not particularly like or trust the other side, but here wasn’t much choice but to live together. In Israel neither side wants to live together. The PA has repeatedly said it doesn’t want any Jews in the territory that it has jurisdiction in, obviously Hamas feels the same. Israelis increasingly don’t want anything to do with the Palestinians, except for the 22% of Arab Israelis. In SA, despite the creation of the Bantustans, everyone knew that blacks, whites, Indian and coloureds were all south africans. Here it is two nations fighting a war, it just happens one of them ended up in a far stronger position
Going back to an earlier post, you've been thinking about that perhaps?
The first and most important point. It is massively underestimated what white South Africans did in the end, basically no one gives up power entrusting the entire future of their people to their enemy (Anglos will not understand this, they don't know what it is like to be a small tribe). That's the real reason it ended somewhat peacefully, there's absolutely zero chance enough of us would've done what is happening in Gaza. Not opinion either, there was the anti-conscription movement, whites protesting apartheid and refusing to fight in real wars (not the mass slaughter of civilians that is Gaza). SADF was massively strong including nukes and a Jericho derived ICBM was progressing (some ballistic missiles were produced), the rogue state option was there. Even if a leader wanted to do a Serbia or NK, they would've had very few people following them (those leaders existed and had fokkol followers). Funny how we're vilified to this day (see Musk), foreigners refuse to let go of what most black South Africans did decades ago.
It's always the choices the dominant group makes which are the most important. They have all the power. Often in analysis of how/why apartheid ended it's just assumed whites take the least worst option, as if the most powerful actor in fact had no power, instead of giving us any credit it becomes about Westerners protesting or sanctions or some other bullshit. The truth is we didn't have to do anything.
For what it's worth your analysis on the ANC is wrong (are you sure they saw SA as one country? are you sure they didn't do everything they could to cause mass casualty events and viewed every white as a legitimate target?), anyway ...
Back to Israel. Read the Wiki link I posted explaining Clean Break. Netanyahu decided in the 90s to reject the peace process and a two state solution (he doesn't agree with your view that there's two nations, he sees only one aka Greater Israel). He along with some powerful Americans opted for side lining Palestinian moderates they could've worked with, whilst the plan for regional opponents was destabilisation and regime change. Iraq and Syria were major problems, they were functioning Arab states (not democracies, but functioning) which would've been as hostile towards the Israel which now exists as Iran is. Get rid of them. Iran and Lebanon are still problems today. Get rid of them. Clean Break also meant weakening Arafat/PLO and empowering extremists. This has continued, Abbas/PA are undermined and irrelevant precisely because they support the two state solution, only the Israeli state cam empower Abbas/PA which will not happen because the Israeli state opposes the two state solution. Hamas and the PA aren't the same, the PA wants two states (ie the peace process), Hamas wants one state without Jews (ie a second Holocaust), guess which one Netanyahu empowered?
This is similar to PW Botha's Total Strategy ("total onslaught requires total strategy"): Moz civil war was fuelled, Angola was invaded, commando raids were conducted on any opponents in any neighbouring state, international assassination and bombing campaign against any opponents wherever they were, empower black opponents of the ANC. The darkest period in SA history since the Second Boer War. Imagine if we had chosen that path for a generation, what would SA be like now? Would you blame blacks if they hated and assert they should never have any freedom because you're too fearful? Would you think the people who had all the power should carry no responsibility for the pain of the oppressed and just keep oppressing? Only the group which has all the power can break the cycle of violence, the only power the oppressed group has is violence if they surrender that before there's concessions they get nothing (look at Abbas/PA).
The part you're missing is the people running Israel do not want a two state solution, they do not agree that there's two states. They want a single state where Palestinians have no rights, and the elimination of all regional opponents. Groot Krokodil's Total Strategy. This has put them into a kak situation, they have created a one state apartheid solution, whilst at the same time failing to strategically defeat their strongest regional opponent. Are you really sure the Israelis are in a far stronger position than the Palestinians? If you think they are in a stronger position does it seem wise to bet their entire future as a people on that (which in their case means betting it on the US always supporting them and always being strong enough), instead of reaching any agreement they can with the Palestinians?
... as jy dom is moet jy kak.
