England vs All Blacks + Munster vs ABs XV

[Gumboot]

Twickenham, London

Local: 3:10pm, Saturday 2 Nov
NZ: 4:10am, Sunday 3 Nov

Referee: Angus Gardner (Aus)
AR 1: Pierre Brousset (Fra)
AR 2: Jordan Way (Aus)
TMO: Marius van der Westhuizen (SA)

[Gumboot]

Expecting another close contest between these sides. The July series could've gone either way, and the last half a dozen match-ups have been decided by an average of just 4 points... even accounting for the 2019 SF win to England by 12 points, that felt more like a 30-point All Blacks loss.

[ASMO]

Cant see anything other than a fairly comfortable win for the AB's.

[Hal Jordan]

Sweepstake on how long before Farelll is mentioned?

[sockwithaticket]

Cant see anything other than a fairly comfortable win for the AB's.

ABs are clearly not at their strongest at the moment, but I feel like we still have no idea what this England team is about or capable of, especially after yet more coaching turnover.

Wouldn't want to call it either way.

[epwc]

Sweepstake on how long before Farelll is mentioned?

Pre kick off or post?

[Paddington Bear]

Cant see anything other than a fairly comfortable win for the AB's.

Not sure I follow the logic of this in light of the two tests in NZ in the summer and the ABs’ general form

[Enzedder]

ABs are not strong and the bulk of the side who will be playing are fresh (and rusty).

New Zealand headed for England after their 64–19 win over Japan, looking forward to their third Test of the year, with both sides having advanced since their two Tests in July.
New Zealand has been involved in The Rugby Championship, while England has held camps, and players have returned to club rugby.

All Blacks coach Scott Robertson said, "It seems like a long time ago since we played them. A lot can happen in between.

"We're playing good footy, they're playing a little bit more footy than they have before.

"They'll be match fit; their players are playing in the Premiership, which is a great competition. They'll be ready.

"They've been under Steve [Borthwick-coach] for a while now. It's going to be an exciting week."

Robertson said there were some great moments in the game, but when the All Blacks couldn't build pressure, Japan came back and held the ball for long periods.

"Japan are a good team. They were big, they were physical, and they had their moments.

"I'm really proud of our defence. A lot of time we were covering tackles, had a strong set piece and did some good stuff, and there are areas to work on as normal."

The side came through unscathed injury-wise, but Robertson confirmed Luke Jacobson won't join the tour as he has had surgery. Dalton Papali'i and Ethan Blackadder will likely join the side after the Ireland Test.

Wellington flanker Peter Lakai, who debuted in Yokohama, is staying with the side along with lock Josh Lord.

Second five-eighths Jordie Barrett is expected to be available for selection against England.

"He's trained well with us. He's training at a high level and with good intensity. He's kicking the ball well."

Robertson said the All Blacks have grown a lot since their season started in July.

"We've been on tour a few times, we've experienced some different environments. We're much more connected and understanding of our game, so we're in a good spot. of our game so, we're in a good spot."

[Guy Smiley]

and we are still playing a demented wind up toy on speed at 10.

[Grandpa]

and we are still playing a demented wind up toy on speed at 10.

I suspect BB will start at 10 against England...

[sockwithaticket]

Congrats, All Blacks.

[SaintK]

Christ!!!!
Slade back in after 50 minutes of rugby this season and Ford straight to the bench having only resumed training this week!
Stuart and Cole at TH
Unbalanced backrow with 2x7's and a 6 though at least there's a proper No8 on the bench
WTF is it with 4 vice captains?
AB's by 15+

[Paddington Bear]

Curry and Dombrandt have not shown much so far this season to justify a selection, particularly given how many strong backrow performances there have been

[ScarfaceClaw]

NZ are woefully out of form and in some areas talent. As much as I’d like to see us win, it’s not going to happen. Our forwards have been dominated at the breakdown all season. England will grind us in to dust. I think we’ll be hammered by 15+ points.

[sefton]

NZ are woefully out of form and in some areas talent. As much as I’d like to see us win, it’s not going to happen. Our forwards have been dominated at the breakdown all season. England will grind us in to dust. I think we’ll be hammered by 15+ points.

Stick your mocker shit, that a spectacularly weak English team.

[ScarfaceClaw]

NZ are woefully out of form and in some areas talent. As much as I’d like to see us win, it’s not going to happen. Our forwards have been dominated at the breakdown all season. England will grind us in to dust. I think we’ll be hammered by 15+ points.

Stick your mocker shit, that a spectacularly weak English team.

You’ve not watched many AB games this season I take it. Not even your old pal Silver would back the All Blacks. And he was into some crazy stuff.

[Gumboot]

That's a strong looking England side.

I think Razor will stick pretty much with the side from Bled 2, with just a couple of changes...

15. Jordan
14. Love (heard this suggested on the ARP yesterday, and like the idea)
13. Ioane
12. Jordie
11. Clarke
10. Beauden
9. Roigard
8. Savea
7. Cane
6. Sititi
5. Vaa'i
4. Scooter (c)
3. Lomax
2. Taylor
1. de Groot

16. Aumua, 17. Williams, 18. Tosi, 19. Tuipulotu, 20. Finau, 21. Ratima, 22. ALB, 23. McKenzie

Tuipulotu played his best test against Japan and will probably make the bench. Now he just has to replicate that form against a top-tier, something he's failed to do so far over his 40+ tests. Don't think he should start ahead of Vaa'i, though.

If they don't pick Love at 14, I'd prefer Tele'a over Reece.

I'm not too fussed about who they start at loosehead. Williams offers more than de Groot imo, and it was a shame about the shit turf in Yokohama which I think was largely responsible for our scrum not making headway till late in the game. Owen Franks is getting plenty of credit for Japan's scrum performance, but I'm not buying it.

[Enzedder]

Razor - We'll have none of this shit here thankyou. Be off to the B side

Usual - "more game time" argument. Well then numb nuts - put him into your A side. He's good enough

[Gumboot]

Well that sucks. Thought he took his chance brilliantly, and doesn't deserve this demotion.

Also, the B team isn't a fucking "All Blacks XV". Just like the sevens side isn't the fucking "All Blacks 7s". Hate all that "branding" bullshit. If anything, I think it devalues the All Blacks brand. [/rant]

[Guy Smiley]

Razor - We'll have none of this shit here thankyou. Be off to the B side

Usual - "more game time" argument. Well then numb nuts - put his into your A side. He's good enough

Love plays at FB, primarily...

so you're suggesting he should replace Jordan?

Or should we do that tried and true NZ method of taking a player who stands out in one position and try to shoehorn him into the test team out of that position just to include him in the numbers?

He will get more playing minutes in the XV. Better that than sitting on the bench and coming on for a cameo in a test, or being thrown into the cauldron of a test against England at home and running the risk of not being an instant superstar and written off by the NZ media and 'fan base' accordingly.

[OomStruisbaai]

This is going to be an interesting test. The All Blacks have developed nicely since this two played earlier. All Blacks by 12.

[Kiwias]

Razor - We'll have none of this shit here thankyou. Be off to the B side

Usual - "more game time" argument. Well then numb nuts - put his into your A side. He's good enough

Love plays at FB, primarily...

so you're suggesting he should replace Jordan?

Or should we do that tried and true NZ method of taking a player who stands out in one position and try to shoehorn him into the test team out of that position just to include him in the numbers?

He will get more playing minutes in the XV. Better that than sitting on the bench and coming on for a cameo in a test, or being thrown into the cauldron of a test against England at home and running the risk of not being an instant superstar and written off by the NZ media and 'fan base' accordingly.

Pretty much what I was about to post.

[Gumboot]

Love plays at FB, primarily...

so you're suggesting he should replace Jordan?

Or should we do that tried and true NZ method of taking a player who stands out in one position and try to shoehorn him into the test team out of that position just to include him in the numbers?

But isn't that how Jordan started his test career? We've long had a habit of picking fullbacks on the wing, from Wilson to Jane to Dagg to Ben Smith to, er, Jordie... and it's mostly worked out ok. I've got no problem with it, tbh.

[Guy Smiley]

Love plays at FB, primarily...

so you're suggesting he should replace Jordan?

Or should we do that tried and true NZ method of taking a player who stands out in one position and try to shoehorn him into the test team out of that position just to include him in the numbers?

But isn't that how Jordan started his test career? We've long had a habit of picking fullbacks on the wing, from Wilson to Jane to Dagg to Ben Smith to, er, Jordie... and it's mostly worked out ok. I've got no problem with it, tbh.

Do you really want to throw Love in at Twickers against England?

Jordie on the wing was a sick joke, by the way. If you like, that was an ultimate expression of this fixation we've developed for squeezing good players into the team out of position just to have them there. Jordie the test winger? pffft, give me a break, especially when you look at the players who missed out because he was selected there.

I don't see the need to rush Love into it now. I had him pegged as more of a BB sort of player myself, someone who can play 10 or 15. Shoehorning him in on a wing now seems counterproductive and would likely set him backwards in his own development and the benefit for the team seems to be little more than fan preference.

[Kiwias]

Love plays at FB, primarily...

so you're suggesting he should replace Jordan?

Or should we do that tried and true NZ method of taking a player who stands out in one position and try to shoehorn him into the test team out of that position just to include him in the numbers?

But isn't that how Jordan started his test career? We've long had a habit of picking fullbacks on the wing, from Wilson to Jane to Dagg to Ben Smith to, er, Jordie... and it's mostly worked out ok. I've got no problem with it, tbh.

We have Clarke, Ioane, Telea, and Reece for win, who would you leave you to include Love there. Jordan only started there because Foz had such a fucking hard-on for BB at 15.

[Gumboot]

Yeah, I realise there are plenty of other wings and he'll have to wait his turn for another game, but I can't see how demoting him to the B team helps his development. Sure it might mean he gets more game time, but Munster's hardly a test calibre opponent.

[assfly]

As a neutral, I've always rated Spencer and I'm surprised he has been overlooked for so long. Reminds me of Joost.

Obviously playing with Finn has helped too.

[Slick]

Is Borthwick seriously considering Earl as a back up centre? That would be madness.

[JM2K6]

Is Borthwick seriously considering Earl as a back up centre? That would be madness.

It's happened twice already

[SaintK]

As a neutral, I've always rated Spencer and I'm surprised he has been overlooked for so long. Reminds me of Joost.

Obviously playing with Finn has helped too.

Spencer should have 60+caps by now.
Russell has taken a lot of decision making weight off his shoulders as wellkicking duties.

[Slick]

Is Borthwick seriously considering Earl as a back up centre? That would be madness.

It's happened twice already

In a proper game? How did he go?

Serious question, as it always amazes me that coaches think a quick forward can slot into a position like centre.

[Jethro]

Pfft England already won their once a decade match, the Blackness to do the business

[JM2K6]

Is Borthwick seriously considering Earl as a back up centre? That would be madness.

It's happened twice already

In a proper game? How did he go?

Serious question, as it always amazes me that coaches think a quick forward can slot into a position like centre.

Largely went unnoticed, happened towards the end of matches when it's usually just a case of players dying on their arse trying to make tackles.

[sockwithaticket]

Is Borthwick seriously considering Earl as a back up centre? That would be madness.

It's happened twice already

In a proper game? How did he go?

Serious question, as it always amazes me that coaches think a quick forward can slot into a position like centre.

When coaches primarily look at their 12 as a battering ram, in theory, a back row carrier isn't vastly different in function. If they can stand in a line and catch a pass, which a 7 or 8 should be able to, and keep up with the rest of the backs in formation I can see why a coach would think it viable.

On the defensive side, plenty of back rowers end up defending in the midfield over the course of games and the 12 channel typically faces up to the more direct runners whose threat is negated if they're physically matched.

So, yeah, on paper it's not complete lunacy and if you want to do dumb shit like 6 - 2 splits I'd imagine it's easy to talk yourself into it actually being a bright idea.

[inactionman]

It's happened twice already

In a proper game? How did he go?

Serious question, as it always amazes me that coaches think a quick forward can slot into a position like centre.

When coaches primarily look at their 12 as a battering ram, in theory, a back row carrier isn't vastly different in function. If they can stand in a line and catch a pass, which a 7 or 8 should be able to, and keep up with the rest of the backs in formation I can see why a coach would think it viable.

On the defensive side, plenty of back rowers end up defending in the midfield over the course of games and the 12 channel typically faces up to the more direct runners whose threat is negated if they're physically matched.

So, yeah, on paper it's not complete lunacy and if you want to do dumb shit like 6 - 2 splits I'd imagine it's easy to talk yourself into it actually being a bright idea.

There's a difference in conditioning as well.

I remember that utter disaster in France a few years back where - alongside playing like a bunch of drunks - we got half the backs injured and poor old Dombrandt was shunted out wide. He did OK, but the French got a try from gathering a pretty badly executed kick by the French with Dombrandt utterly blowing out of his arse after sprinting up and down the pitch for half the match. Not his fault at all, but the physical demands do differ.

[Sandstorm]

The issue for me with a back-rower at 12 is that he'll always truck the ball up into contact, whereas a regular 12 (not named De Allende) will sometimes notice the space out wide and give the pass to the 13 beside him.

[sockwithaticket]

In a proper game? How did he go?

Serious question, as it always amazes me that coaches think a quick forward can slot into a position like centre.

When coaches primarily look at their 12 as a battering ram, in theory, a back row carrier isn't vastly different in function. If they can stand in a line and catch a pass, which a 7 or 8 should be able to, and keep up with the rest of the backs in formation I can see why a coach would think it viable.

On the defensive side, plenty of back rowers end up defending in the midfield over the course of games and the 12 channel typically faces up to the more direct runners whose threat is negated if they're physically matched.

So, yeah, on paper it's not complete lunacy and if you want to do dumb shit like 6 - 2 splits I'd imagine it's easy to talk yourself into it actually being a bright idea.

There's a difference in conditioning as well.

I remember that utter disaster in France a few years back where - alongside playing like a bunch of drunks - we got half the backs injured and poor old Dombrandt was shunted out wide. He did OK, but the French got a try from gathering a pretty badly executed kick by the French with Dombrandt utterly blowing out of his arse after sprinting up and down the pitch for half the match. Not his fault at all, but the physical demands do differ.

True, although that's partly going to come down to player differences too. I'd dare say Earl has more stamina than Dombrandt and is quicker in general, he perhaps wouldn't be so exposed in a similar situation. It's also a difference covering 12 and covering the wing.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It's happened twice already

In a proper game? How did he go?

Serious question, as it always amazes me that coaches think a quick forward can slot into a position like centre.

When coaches primarily look at their 12 as a battering ram, in theory, a back row carrier isn't vastly different in function. If they can stand in a line and catch a pass, which a 7 or 8 should be able to, and keep up with the rest of the backs in formation I can see why a coach would think it viable.

On the defensive side, plenty of back rowers end up defending in the midfield over the course of games and the 12 channel typically faces up to the more direct runners whose threat is negated if they're physically matched.

So, yeah, on paper it's not complete lunacy and if you want to do dumb shit like 6 - 2 splits I'd imagine it's easy to talk yourself into it actually being a bright idea.

What you're not going to do well unless you do if often is read the plays well on attack and defence, and that gets worse the more one goes away from 1st phase. So even if physically you're up to the task there's an awful lot many coaches seem happy to ignore, not that it all ends as badly as Sam Burgess

[Lobby]

The issue for me with a back-rower at 12 is that he'll always truck the ball up into contact, whereas a regular 12 (not named De Allende) will sometimes notice the space out wide and give the pass to the 13 beside him.

If it's an English 12 like Slade, the alternative to taking contact is invariably to kick the ball away. Passing to the 13 is generally the last option.

[epwc]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 29qx5e6plo

Big Joe says the Haka needs binning. I used to think it an impressive spectacle but I think I agree with him.