2024/2025 Not Heineken Cup

[Biffer]

Also, I think the SA teams not being in the Heineken Cup would benefit everyone. Becomes a European competition with the opportunity to travel to every game being a real thing again, proper fan interaction akin to the 6Ns. And if the calendar can be subtly reworked, the Saffers can take those extra weekends to bolster the Currie Cup in some way. Reduced number of games in the NH season for them allows them to play the pro team players in the CC before the URC starts, no additional games to their total and raises the standard of the CC.

[SaintK]

I quite like Barnes as a journalist.

Stephen Jones utter hatred for anything remotely South African is unbelievable. I'm amazed he's survived this long at The Times.

I think Barnes is awful

He writes like the Welsh windbag he is
I don't think Barnes has ever got over the fact that he only got 10 England caps compared top Rob Andrews 70!!!!

[Biffer]

I quite like Barnes as a journalist.

Stephen Jones utter hatred for anything remotely South African is unbelievable. I'm amazed he's survived this long at The Times.

I think Barnes is awful

He writes like the Welsh windbag he is
I don't think Barnes has ever got over the fact that he only got 10 England caps compared top Rob Andrews 70!!!!

He absolutely did not. I reckon about 80% of what he talks is complete guff, mixed in with 20% good stuff. Can't be arsed wading through the shite though.

[Slick]

I think Barnes is awful

He writes like the Welsh windbag he is
I don't think Barnes has ever got over the fact that he only got 10 England caps compared top Rob Andrews 70!!!!

He absolutely did not. I reckon about 80% of what he talks is complete guff, mixed in with 20% good stuff. Can't be arsed wading through the shite though.

Exactly right, I get so bored of trying to get through him trying to show how clever he is that I never make to any actual analysis.

[Biffer]

He writes like the Welsh windbag he is
I don't think Barnes has ever got over the fact that he only got 10 England caps compared top Rob Andrews 70!!!!

He absolutely did not. I reckon about 80% of what he talks is complete guff, mixed in with 20% good stuff. Can't be arsed wading through the shite though.

Exactly right, I get so bored of trying to get through him trying to show how clever he is that I never make to any actual analysis.

Yeah and his trying to show he's clever is usually such simplistic shite that it's just awful to listen to. Overly verbose and ends up being nonsensical.

[OomStruisbaai]

A spiv is a dodgy businessman, black market, seedy, always on the lookout for making a quick buck, more often than not borderline illegally. Cheap shiny suit, nasty little moustache. Del boy in Only Fools and Horses, Private Walker in Dad's Army.

The Irish use it to insult the owners of the premiership clubs, precisely because of their perception of their business practices.

Using it as a generic insult for English rugby fans doesn't make sense.

I explained all that to Oom last year

OK forget about Spivs. Vokken Irish make me use the word. You got your links of Pom (Jones should be Wales) complains. Dobson and Plumtree are looking after their players.

[OomStruisbaai]

and Oom, the oxygen thief gave the solution for the competition to be a success.

[SaintK]

A spiv is a dodgy businessman, black market, seedy, always on the lookout for making a quick buck, more often than not borderline illegally. Cheap shiny suit, nasty little moustache. Del boy in Only Fools and Horses, Private Walker in Dad's Army.

The Irish use it to insult the owners of the premiership clubs, precisely because of their perception of their business practices.

Using it as a generic insult for English rugby fans doesn't make sense.

I explained all that to Oom last year

OK forget about Spivs. Vokken Irish make me use the word. You got your links of Pom (Jones should be Wales) complains. Dobson and Plumtree are looking after their players.

You spend too much time listening to the swarm in the other place.

[OomStruisbaai]

I explained all that to Oom last year

OK forget about Spivs. Vokken Irish make me use the word. You got your links of Pom (Jones should be Wales) complains. Dobson and Plumtree are looking after their players.

You spend too much time listening to the swarm in the other place.

Nah Ox say I spend to much time with the English. but then he is living with the English.

[Slick]

I was reliably informed by the board's expert that Saffers don't complain, so this is all very upsetting

In fairness, someone mischaracterised the constitutional status of Walvis Bay a fortnight ago, they’re justifiably on edge

Apologies, all

[Kawazaki]

I quite like Barnes as a journalist.

Stephen Jones utter hatred for anything remotely South African is unbelievable. I'm amazed he's survived this long at The Times.

I think Barnes is awful

Agree. He's so bad now that I actually prefer Stephen Jones.

[Biffer]

I was reliably informed by the board's expert that Saffers don't complain, so this is all very upsetting

In fairness, someone mischaracterised the constitutional status of Walvis Bay a fortnight ago, they’re justifiably on edge

Apologies, all

Actually I think that was me. What a burden.

[Kawazaki]

I quite like Barnes as a journalist.

Stephen Jones utter hatred for anything remotely South African is unbelievable. I'm amazed he's survived this long at The Times.

Jones thinks Marcus Smith isn't good enough to play for England and that's not even the tip of the iceberg when it comes to a lifetime of awful takes.

He has my grudging respect for managing to draw a decent wage as a rugby columnist for decades whilst apparently knowing fuck all about the sport.

Marcus Smith is good enough to play for England but there are loads of players in that bracket who should and don't. Fin Smith is a better 10 to play Test rugby though and arguably just a better 10.

[Tichtheid]

The logistics of the games notwithstanding, I welcome the South African teams playing the URC and in the EPCR - the bollocks Not-Heine format and teams resting players is not down to them, it's been that way since long before the SA teams joined us, the current mess is just the latest iteration of it.

[assfly]

Also, I think the SA teams not being in the Heineken Cup would benefit everyone.

Not going to happen, at least for a long long time.

[OomStruisbaai]

Also, I think the SA teams not being in the Heineken Cup would benefit everyone.

Not going to happen, at least for a long long time.

After June 2025 we paid our debt and will be full partners. Will host the finals after that.

[TheNatalShark]

Also, I think the SA teams not being in the Heineken Cup would benefit everyone.

Not going to happen, at least for a long long time.

After June 2025 we paid our debt and will be full partners. Will host the finals after that.

The English will get upset again when the semis are an annual rotation between Durban, CT and Dublin

[SaintK]

Not going to happen, at least for a long long time.

After June 2025 we paid our debt and will be full partners. Will host the finals after that.

The English will get upset again when the semis are an annual rotation between Durban, CT and Dublin

You think it will just be the English? Have a feeling the French, Sots, Welsh and Italians would have something to say as well
Not sure too many Irish are happy with the current structure and format either.

[Torquemada 1420]

I quite like Barnes as a journalist.

Stephen Jones utter hatred for anything remotely South African is unbelievable. I'm amazed he's survived this long at The Times.

I think Barnes is awful

Both so desperately out of touch.

It's always struck me as ironic that in terms of rugby reporting (depth, breadth and perceptiveness) that France has been and is miles ahead. NZ ("spiritual guardians") is shockingly gash. I guess the fact that they spawned Quentin tells all.

There is nothing anywhere else like the hilarious https://boucherie-ovalie.org/ or even the Rugbymen comic strips and despite some of its ills, Midi Olympique is a superb resource that encompasses news from other nations too..... unlike any of the English tomes. "Planet" Rugby my arse.

[PornDog]

After June 2025 we paid our debt and will be full partners. Will host the finals after that.

The English will get upset again when the semis are an annual rotation between Durban, CT and Dublin

You think it will just be the English? Have a feeling the French, Sots, Welsh and Italians would have something to say as well
Not sure too many Irish are happy with the current structure and format either.

I'm disgusted with the format and believe it is no longer fit for purpose. As Tichteid said above though, the SA involvement (and associated travel) is really only a tiny part of the issues. While the logistics might be a little simpler, the competition itself would not be one iota better at all if they weren't involved.

It needs to go back to 9 weekends, or else it needs a bullet in the head.

[Sandstorm]

Oom may be right - if we could find away to move it to the end of the season and then the Top 2 teams from each league show up and play a knock-out format, then it may work. It's too big and cumbersome now, especially in the middle of every season.

The Summer Tours are losing their attraction, so this may be a chance to replace with the Champions Cup. Could even invite the Kiwis and Aussies..... #grenade!!

[Paddington Bear]

The English will get upset again when the semis are an annual rotation between Durban, CT and Dublin

You think it will just be the English? Have a feeling the French, Sots, Welsh and Italians would have something to say as well
Not sure too many Irish are happy with the current structure and format either.

I'm disgusted with the format and believe it is no longer fit for purpose. As Tichteid said above though, the SA involvement (and associated travel) is really only a tiny part of the issues. While the logistics might be a little simpler, the competition itself would not be one iota better at all if they weren't involved.

It needs to go back to 9 weekends, or else it needs a bullet in the head.

Is this strictly true? Take them out and remove one of the English sides/Castres and you have a far more coherent 20 team tournament, five groups of four then into the quarters

[PornDog]

Oom may be right - if we could find away to move it to the end of the season and then the Top 2 teams from each league show up and play a knock-out format, then it may work. It's too big and cumbersome now, especially in the middle of every season.

The Summer Tours are losing their attraction, so this may be a chance to replace with the Champions Cup. Could even invite the Kiwis and Aussies..... #grenade!!

The distributed nature of the comp was one of its greatest strengths - it allowed for fans to travel in greater numbers, clubs to promote their games and generally keep people wanting more.

Now though, with the group games being a pile of shit, I suppose a straight cup comp at the end of the season could work to some degree or another. The cunts running the show though would manage to drown themselves in a desert, so I have little faith.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Also, I think the SA teams not being in the Heineken Cup would benefit everyone.

Not going to happen, at least for a long long time.

if they start adding value they'll certainly stay. as is they're bringing in little of value, Saffer TV monies seemingly being on a par with the fabled TV monies of Wales, and now everyone will have to pay to travel there which will only raise discontent further

there is the slight problem the Celtic league screwed itself over inviting sides from the furthest point away in Africa, that does complicate things. But we've left a version before, no reason we can't revise it again, or just not play in it.

[Tichtheid]

You think it will just be the English? Have a feeling the French, Sots, Welsh and Italians would have something to say as well
Not sure too many Irish are happy with the current structure and format either.

I'm disgusted with the format and believe it is no longer fit for purpose. As Tichteid said above though, the SA involvement (and associated travel) is really only a tiny part of the issues. While the logistics might be a little simpler, the competition itself would not be one iota better at all if they weren't involved.

It needs to go back to 9 weekends, or else it needs a bullet in the head.

Is this strictly true? Take them out and remove one of the English sides/Castres and you have a far more coherent 20 team tournament, five groups of four then into the quarters

5 pool winners going into the quarters?

Then there is the qualification issue - 70% of English prem teams qualify, compared to 50% of French T14 and 37.5% of URC (50% if you're kicking SA teams out of the URC too)

[Sandstorm]

Oom may be right - if we could find away to move it to the end of the season and then the Top 2 teams from each league show up and play a knock-out format, then it may work. It's too big and cumbersome now, especially in the middle of every season.

The Summer Tours are losing their attraction, so this may be a chance to replace with the Champions Cup. Could even invite the Kiwis and Aussies..... #grenade!!

The distributed nature of the comp was one of its greatest strengths - it allowed for fans to travel in greater numbers, clubs to promote their games and generally keep people wanting more.

Good point.

I also feel that since the Saffers joined the URC and the Scots have improved so much, that the dominance of Leinster in the Pro12 league days is over.
The Pro12 was a bit meh if you didn't live in Dublin, whereas the Champions Cup got Euro teams everywhere more interested pre-Covid.

[Paddington Bear]

I'm disgusted with the format and believe it is no longer fit for purpose. As Tichteid said above though, the SA involvement (and associated travel) is really only a tiny part of the issues. While the logistics might be a little simpler, the competition itself would not be one iota better at all if they weren't involved.

It needs to go back to 9 weekends, or else it needs a bullet in the head.

Is this strictly true? Take them out and remove one of the English sides/Castres and you have a far more coherent 20 team tournament, five groups of four then into the quarters

5 pool winners going into the quarters?

Then there is the qualification issue - 70% of English prem teams qualify, compared to 50% of French T14 and 37.5% of URC (50% if you're kicking SA teams out of the URC too)

Plus 3 best runners up.

English sides are overrepresented regardless, that’s a commercial call.

[Tichtheid]

Is this strictly true? Take them out and remove one of the English sides/Castres and you have a far more coherent 20 team tournament, five groups of four then into the quarters

5 pool winners going into the quarters?

Then there is the qualification issue - 70% of English prem teams qualify, compared to 50% of French T14 and 37.5% of URC (50% if you're kicking SA teams out of the URC too)

Plus 3 best runners up.

English sides are overrepresented regardless, that’s a commercial call.

Best three runners up is a very skewed way of doing it too when teams are not playing each other - there will always be stronger and weaker pools.

[clydecloggie]

Is this strictly true? Take them out and remove one of the English sides/Castres and you have a far more coherent 20 team tournament, five groups of four then into the quarters

5 pool winners going into the quarters?

Then there is the qualification issue - 70% of English prem teams qualify, compared to 50% of French T14 and 37.5% of URC (50% if you're kicking SA teams out of the URC too)

Plus 3 best runners up.

English sides are overrepresented regardless, that’s a commercial call.

I really hated the 5+3 qualifiers format, it was worse than the current shite, and that's a very low bar to limbo dance underneath.

Ideally it's 16 teams, 4 pools of 4, QF, SF, done. 5 each from the 3 comps + last season's Johnston Paint Cup winner.

[PornDog]

You think it will just be the English? Have a feeling the French, Sots, Welsh and Italians would have something to say as well
Not sure too many Irish are happy with the current structure and format either.

I'm disgusted with the format and believe it is no longer fit for purpose. As Tichteid said above though, the SA involvement (and associated travel) is really only a tiny part of the issues. While the logistics might be a little simpler, the competition itself would not be one iota better at all if they weren't involved.

It needs to go back to 9 weekends, or else it needs a bullet in the head.

Is this strictly true? Take them out and remove one of the English sides/Castres and you have a far more coherent 20 team tournament, five groups of four then into the quarters

That's the key bit and that structure could be adopted whether the SA teams are in it or not. They are irrelevant to the structural problems and the structural problems are THE problem!

[Torquemada 1420]

I'm disgusted with the format and believe it is no longer fit for purpose. As Tichteid said above though, the SA involvement (and associated travel) is really only a tiny part of the issues. While the logistics might be a little simpler, the competition itself would not be one iota better at all if they weren't involved.

It needs to go back to 9 weekends, or else it needs a bullet in the head.

It's sh*t. I used to go to 3 or 4 Euro games a season and now I'm not arsed. I'll go to club games when I'm in France or intls.

[Slick]

Oom may be right - if we could find away to move it to the end of the season and then the Top 2 teams from each league show up and play a knock-out format, then it may work. It's too big and cumbersome now, especially in the middle of every season.

The Summer Tours are losing their attraction, so this may be a chance to replace with the Champions Cup. Could even invite the Kiwis and Aussies..... #grenade!!

What about the superduper new Nations Cup thingy?

[Sandstorm]

Oom may be right - if we could find away to move it to the end of the season and then the Top 2 teams from each league show up and play a knock-out format, then it may work. It's too big and cumbersome now, especially in the middle of every season.

The Summer Tours are losing their attraction, so this may be a chance to replace with the Champions Cup. Could even invite the Kiwis and Aussies..... #grenade!!

What about the superduper new Nations Cup thingy?

I did think about that, but I suspect the 4N will delay starting & shorten to accommodate it. No point SA and NZ playing a 3 match series in NZ in late June, then going into a 2 match home-away in mid July.

[Torquemada 1420]

Racing are really ordinary, only player showing any heart is Chat.

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/2024/12/18/tra ... 399448.php

Not a happy ship at either Paris port ATM.

[SaintK]

Racing are really ordinary, only player showing any heart is Chat.

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/2024/12/18/tra ... 399448.php

Not a happy ship at either Paris port ATM.

Can only just get the gist of that....I think
Guessing it might be something to do with this on Rugbypass
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/stuart ... ants-job/

[Torquemada 1420]

Racing are really ordinary, only player showing any heart is Chat.

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/2024/12/18/tra ... 399448.php

Not a happy ship at either Paris port ATM.

Can only just get the gist of that....I think
Guessing it might be something to do with this on Rugbypass
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/stuart ... ants-job/

Yes. Foode is publicly confirming what I alluded to earlier on this thread.

[OomStruisbaai]

United Rugby Boss
https://www.unitedrugby.com/latest/inte ... -ten-years

“That would be when we brought the South African teams in and created the United Rugby Championship,” he declares.

“They have been tremendously successful in terms of performance and attendance, as well as financially and commercially.

“Pretty much anybody you speak to in the league will say they have raised the standard of the competition on and off the field and they will continue to do that.”

Expanding on the financial benefit, he said:

“It’s a game changer. It’s millions.

“More than half our revenue comes from South Africa via television and sponsorship.

“They are also providing more value to EPCR, via Investec’s sponsorship of the Champions Cup.

“It is a huge part of the rugby economy for Europe.”

[Torquemada 1420]

United Rugby Boss
https://www.unitedrugby.com/latest/inte ... -ten-years

“That would be when we brought the South African teams in and created the United Rugby Championship,” he declares.

“They have been tremendously successful in terms of performance and attendance, as well as financially and commercially.

“Pretty much anybody you speak to in the league will say they have raised the standard of the competition on and off the field and they will continue to do that.”

Expanding on the financial benefit, he said:

“It’s a game changer. It’s millions.

“More than half our revenue comes from South Africa via television and sponsorship.

“They are also providing more value to EPCR, via Investec’s sponsorship of the Champions Cup.

“It is a huge part of the rugby economy for Europe.”

Okay, I'll hold my hand up and repeat what I said at the time
- Soup was a stitch up for SA perpetuated by Aus who has no viable ntl comp to sustain themselves through the professional era
- whereas both SA and NZ had world class domestic tournies in the CC and Provincial rugby
- NZ bought into the ploy and I can see reasons why, but not for SA who had the most financial clout and were always going to be shafted by the travel

And here we are today. Chickens roosting. Soup over extended itself massively and Aus are f**ked and NPC (still the most enjoyable comp in the world for me) has gates that a Federale side in France would be embarrassed by, CC has been diminished and Soup is just a meaningless bore.

SA in Europe? Made sense once a long time ago: maybe more so at intl level given the time zones.

Now, as for the contentions in that post
1) URC has been such a shambles in its various guises for so many years, I'll leave othesr to judge improving standards. Results in Europe would suggest otherwise.
2) As for economics, I don't doubt SA revenue has helped there but I'm going to dispute the impact on the HEC. I can categorically say SA's presence has brought nothing to the table for the Fre teams. There is nothing in SA's participation for France.

[Sandstorm]

6 Nations next.

[Slick]

6 Nations next.

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