Stop voting for fucking Tories

[Paddington Bear]

Reform/Tory pact is near inevitable at this stage. I’d imagine Reform have planned a slow drip of defections to get a better bargaining position. As we saw in 2019, a pact on the right is an exceptionally potent force

[Slick]

Only way Farage can become power is if there is a reverse merger with the conservatives and reform. Whilst they are splitting the right of centre vote, there is no chance he can buy his way into power.

Quite fun watching the lefties reaction on social media though now Labour are in power again

What's left of the Conservatives are an absolute shitshow though. I don't think you can rule out a merger.

Absolutely , right now though the gravitas , backing, organisation, political links and joined up thinking , is all coming from Reform and not the Tories - that’s why it would be a reverse merger with Farage as leader.
LD won in my area this year but had reform not split the vote, it would have remained Tory by a decent margin - if there was a GE tomorrow with Farage head of a Tory Reform right wing alliance Norsefire type thing, it would be interesting who would win.

I think that’s giving Reform a lot more credit than is due, particularly regarding organisation and joined up thinking. Being a protest party is pretty easy compared to being an actual opposition. Not that I disagree with much of the rest

[_Os_]

Frogface must have tweeted his displeasure of her sentence from Florida yesterday as he was busy sticking his nose up Musk's arse under the watchful gaze of the young criminal!!!!

Worrying.

Musk is now worth $455bn. Giving Reform/Frog Face $100m, is fuck all for him, nowhere close to even 0.1% of his wealth. It would massively destabilise British politics. Reform's target of 150 seats starts looking very plausible if they're funded at multiples more than everything else put together. 150 starts looking like an underperformance.

Some white English speaking South Africans have a very strange view of the UK. It's not like I'm saying that without experience. Basically some see it as an ethnic homeland (not how UK citizenship/nationality works) and use it to put themselves above other South Africans (including other white South Africans). Their actual knowledge of the UK is limited and based on stereotypes as well as their own prejudices. Basically they read the Times/Telegraph/Daily Mail/Express online, love Thatcher, hate Labour, oblivious to Wales/Scotland and especially NI, hate the NHS, think someone not being white and being British/English is a bit of a joke (they associate themselves with the UK purely based on race/ethnicity, those people existing undermines their identity). When they emigrate to the UK, they eventually work out just about everything they thought the UK was does not exist, very often they re-emigrate. Musk's father was on LBC, he was quite open that they as a family are interested in the UK on some sort of racial/ethnic basis ("the motherland" blah blah), then raged about Starmer claiming he's a uniquely poor and anti-British PM.

Musk has also started a personal beef with Starmer. When he gets into these things he becomes obsessed. Basically he has decided Starmer is anti-free speech and therefore anti-British, because people were sent to jail for supporting mob violence/burning people out of buildings/attacking the homes and vehicles of people who aren't white/physically beating people who aren't white including women. Musk thinks that free speech means you can say anything, "it's just Facebook posts".

I suspect the version of Britain Musk wants to see is Truss/Farage, turbo Thatcherism, more privatisation and less tax, no worker rights, Special Economic Zones that get rid of democracy. Could be some personal interest too, it would be surprising if a man that wealthy didn't have holdings in corners of the UK's offshore banking system, could be concerned that if the UK was run properly he wouldn't be as tax efficient.

Jesus, not sure what kind of saffa you hang out with in the UK, what you’ve described is nothing like what I’ve experienced , sounds like you hang out with racist bigots who would find something to whinge about .

The only common ground saffas in Uk have, is how shit our weather is , especially if they from KZN - and that’s fair enough .

It's a description of the sort of person who thinks they have some sort of connection to the UK and know anything about the place, despite their family being in Southern Africa for centuries and never having lived in the UK. It's obviously not a description of Saffas living in the UK, because I specifically said these people that do move to the UK are typically disappointed and re-emigrate.

Do you have a better explanation for why the Musk family are interested in the UK and are happy to share their far right views on the place? Happy to defend support for violent racist rioters as "just Facebook posts" even? Why not say Portugal/Netherlands/Germany?

Musk and his old man seem to have similar views on the UK. I know (far better than yourself) where it's probably all coming from.

[_Os_]

Here is old man Musk, Yeeb. "England is a place we see as a sort of parent country, we all come from England really".

This man has zero connection to England or the UK, he likely knows very little about the place. But he thinks Starmer is a "fascist", there's a "two tier policing system", that "Starmer should resign in the next three months".

It's probably a bit of a problem when people with a cartoon version of the UK in their heads, can throw money around like it's water trying to make that delusion become real. Just on the "two tier" stuff around Facebook posts, if the UK has always been a free speech type of place, why does parliamentary privilege exist and why does speakers' corner exist? If the UK has always been a pro-free speech sort of place, why do carve outs for free speech exist either in law or convention?

[Paddington Bear]

Worrying.

Musk is now worth $455bn. Giving Reform/Frog Face $100m, is fuck all for him, nowhere close to even 0.1% of his wealth. It would massively destabilise British politics. Reform's target of 150 seats starts looking very plausible if they're funded at multiples more than everything else put together. 150 starts looking like an underperformance.

Some white English speaking South Africans have a very strange view of the UK. It's not like I'm saying that without experience. Basically some see it as an ethnic homeland (not how UK citizenship/nationality works) and use it to put themselves above other South Africans (including other white South Africans). Their actual knowledge of the UK is limited and based on stereotypes as well as their own prejudices. Basically they read the Times/Telegraph/Daily Mail/Express online, love Thatcher, hate Labour, oblivious to Wales/Scotland and especially NI, hate the NHS, think someone not being white and being British/English is a bit of a joke (they associate themselves with the UK purely based on race/ethnicity, those people existing undermines their identity). When they emigrate to the UK, they eventually work out just about everything they thought the UK was does not exist, very often they re-emigrate. Musk's father was on LBC, he was quite open that they as a family are interested in the UK on some sort of racial/ethnic basis ("the motherland" blah blah), then raged about Starmer claiming he's a uniquely poor and anti-British PM.

Musk has also started a personal beef with Starmer. When he gets into these things he becomes obsessed. Basically he has decided Starmer is anti-free speech and therefore anti-British, because people were sent to jail for supporting mob violence/burning people out of buildings/attacking the homes and vehicles of people who aren't white/physically beating people who aren't white including women. Musk thinks that free speech means you can say anything, "it's just Facebook posts".

I suspect the version of Britain Musk wants to see is Truss/Farage, turbo Thatcherism, more privatisation and less tax, no worker rights, Special Economic Zones that get rid of democracy. Could be some personal interest too, it would be surprising if a man that wealthy didn't have holdings in corners of the UK's offshore banking system, could be concerned that if the UK was run properly he wouldn't be as tax efficient.

Jesus, not sure what kind of saffa you hang out with in the UK, what you’ve described is nothing like what I’ve experienced , sounds like you hang out with racist bigots who would find something to whinge about .

The only common ground saffas in Uk have, is how shit our weather is , especially if they from KZN - and that’s fair enough .

It's a description of the sort of person who thinks they have some sort of connection to the UK and know anything about the place, despite their family being in Southern Africa for centuries and never having lived in the UK. It's obviously not a description of Saffas living in the UK, because I specifically said these people that do move to the UK are typically disappointed and re-emigrate.

Do you have a better explanation for why the Musk family are interested in the UK and are happy to share their far right views on the place? Happy to defend support for violent racist rioters as "just Facebook posts" even? Why not say Portugal/Netherlands/Germany?

Musk and his old man seem to have similar views on the UK. I know (far better than yourself) where it's probably all coming from.

The easy answer to this is that we speak English and so does Elon Musk.

[_Os_]

Jesus, not sure what kind of saffa you hang out with in the UK, what you’ve described is nothing like what I’ve experienced , sounds like you hang out with racist bigots who would find something to whinge about .

The only common ground saffas in Uk have, is how shit our weather is , especially if they from KZN - and that’s fair enough .

It's a description of the sort of person who thinks they have some sort of connection to the UK and know anything about the place, despite their family being in Southern Africa for centuries and never having lived in the UK. It's obviously not a description of Saffas living in the UK, because I specifically said these people that do move to the UK are typically disappointed and re-emigrate.

Do you have a better explanation for why the Musk family are interested in the UK and are happy to share their far right views on the place? Happy to defend support for violent racist rioters as "just Facebook posts" even? Why not say Portugal/Netherlands/Germany?

Musk and his old man seem to have similar views on the UK. I know (far better than yourself) where it's probably all coming from.

The easy answer to this is that we speak English and so does Elon Musk.

Plenty of people speak English. Are they pitching up in the West Indies?

He thinks he has a connection to the UK because of race/ethnicity. There's similar stuff going on with Trump regarding Scotland (but he has more of a claim to be fair, mother born in the UK means he has a claim on British citizenship), or Americans trying to be more Irish than the Irish.

All this is a function of their imagination, it's literally as real as they decide it is, because they're not from the UK. Whatever stuff someone dreams up about the UK after they decide they have a primordial connection to the place, is likely not going to be constrained by things like reality. Probably a bad idea if that person injects shit tons into the right wing allowing them another round of utopian madness. Rather than being crushed by the reality of defeat and coming up with something sensible.

[Yeeb]

Worrying.

Musk is now worth $455bn. Giving Reform/Frog Face $100m, is fuck all for him, nowhere close to even 0.1% of his wealth. It would massively destabilise British politics. Reform's target of 150 seats starts looking very plausible if they're funded at multiples more than everything else put together. 150 starts looking like an underperformance.

Some white English speaking South Africans have a very strange view of the UK. It's not like I'm saying that without experience. Basically some see it as an ethnic homeland (not how UK citizenship/nationality works) and use it to put themselves above other South Africans (including other white South Africans). Their actual knowledge of the UK is limited and based on stereotypes as well as their own prejudices. Basically they read the Times/Telegraph/Daily Mail/Express online, love Thatcher, hate Labour, oblivious to Wales/Scotland and especially NI, hate the NHS, think someone not being white and being British/English is a bit of a joke (they associate themselves with the UK purely based on race/ethnicity, those people existing undermines their identity). When they emigrate to the UK, they eventually work out just about everything they thought the UK was does not exist, very often they re-emigrate. Musk's father was on LBC, he was quite open that they as a family are interested in the UK on some sort of racial/ethnic basis ("the motherland" blah blah), then raged about Starmer claiming he's a uniquely poor and anti-British PM.

Musk has also started a personal beef with Starmer. When he gets into these things he becomes obsessed. Basically he has decided Starmer is anti-free speech and therefore anti-British, because people were sent to jail for supporting mob violence/burning people out of buildings/attacking the homes and vehicles of people who aren't white/physically beating people who aren't white including women. Musk thinks that free speech means you can say anything, "it's just Facebook posts".

I suspect the version of Britain Musk wants to see is Truss/Farage, turbo Thatcherism, more privatisation and less tax, no worker rights, Special Economic Zones that get rid of democracy. Could be some personal interest too, it would be surprising if a man that wealthy didn't have holdings in corners of the UK's offshore banking system, could be concerned that if the UK was run properly he wouldn't be as tax efficient.

Jesus, not sure what kind of saffa you hang out with in the UK, what you’ve described is nothing like what I’ve experienced , sounds like you hang out with racist bigots who would find something to whinge about .

The only common ground saffas in Uk have, is how shit our weather is , especially if they from KZN - and that’s fair enough .

It's a description of the sort of person who thinks they have some sort of connection to the UK and know anything about the place, despite their family being in Southern Africa for centuries and never having lived in the UK. It's obviously not a description of Saffas living in the UK, because I specifically said these people that do move to the UK are typically disappointed and re-emigrate.

Do you have a better explanation for why the Musk family are interested in the UK and are happy to share their far right views on the place? Happy to defend support for violent racist rioters as "just Facebook posts" even? Why not say Portugal/Netherlands/Germany?

Musk and his old man seem to have similar views on the UK. I know (far better than yourself) where it's probably all coming from.

I think you must know a certain kind of saffa, I know precisely zero who have immigrated back to that shithole when they have have a great life in Wimbledonfontaine or wherever. Weather aside , it’s hard to see how anyone could be disappointed with a country who doesn’t have BEE , is still relatively safe and high paying jobs available for educated saffas.

I don’t pretend to understand the musk family or their intentions or apparent connection to uk is, I thought his background was more Canadian than pommie anyways.
Anyhows he’s just put £100 big into Farages pockets

[Yeeb]

What's left of the Conservatives are an absolute shitshow though. I don't think you can rule out a merger.

Absolutely , right now though the gravitas , backing, organisation, political links and joined up thinking , is all coming from Reform and not the Tories - that’s why it would be a reverse merger with Farage as leader.
LD won in my area this year but had reform not split the vote, it would have remained Tory by a decent margin - if there was a GE tomorrow with Farage head of a Tory Reform right wing alliance Norsefire type thing, it would be interesting who would win.

I think that’s giving Reform a lot more credit than is due, particularly regarding organisation and joined up thinking. Being a protest party is pretty easy compared to being an actual opposition. Not that I disagree with much of the rest

That may be true , it’s all relative though as you have a car crash of another colour in charge now - but obtaining that financial muscle from musk and certain other recent high profile backers does sort of seem pretty coherent as part of a plan.

[_Os_]

Jesus, not sure what kind of saffa you hang out with in the UK, what you’ve described is nothing like what I’ve experienced , sounds like you hang out with racist bigots who would find something to whinge about .

The only common ground saffas in Uk have, is how shit our weather is , especially if they from KZN - and that’s fair enough .

It's a description of the sort of person who thinks they have some sort of connection to the UK and know anything about the place, despite their family being in Southern Africa for centuries and never having lived in the UK. It's obviously not a description of Saffas living in the UK, because I specifically said these people that do move to the UK are typically disappointed and re-emigrate.

Do you have a better explanation for why the Musk family are interested in the UK and are happy to share their far right views on the place? Happy to defend support for violent racist rioters as "just Facebook posts" even? Why not say Portugal/Netherlands/Germany?

Musk and his old man seem to have similar views on the UK. I know (far better than yourself) where it's probably all coming from.

I think you must know a certain kind of saffa, I know precisely zero who have immigrated back to that shithole when they have have a great life in Wimbledonfontaine or wherever. Weather aside , it’s hard to see how anyone could be disappointed with a country who doesn’t have BEE , is still relatively safe and high paying jobs available for educated saffas.

I don’t pretend to understand the musk family or their intentions or apparent connection to uk is, I thought his background was more Canadian than pommie anyways.
Anyhows he’s just put £100 big into Farages pockets

Right. You seem to be mostly upset that I posted a South African could move to the UK be a bit disappointed then re-emigrate somewhere else. It's happened with about half of the South Africans I've known in the UK. Even among the small group of South African posters on here, there's people who have moved to the UK and left. Last time I looked at the emigration data it also showed declining interest in the UK from South Africans.

All a bit besides the point I was making. Which was about this: "I don’t pretend to understand the musk family or their intentions or apparent connection to uk is".

[_Os_]

It would probably be wise to be a bit interested in the views and intentions of someone that wants to inject $100m straight into the veins of the most reactionary populist forces in your country. Starting with the most basic question "why"? And if the answer comes back "England is a place we see as a sort of parent country, we all come from England really", then it's time to start worrying. But what do I know?

There's room for America to shrug off Trump 2, it's a superpower and is playing by different rules (literally different rules, nothing can stop a PM with a stable majority). If after the last decade and half the UK has a short breather under Labour then goes on another mad populist crusade presumably with Frog Face as PM, it's going to lock in the damage already done and add more. If that came to pass there would be a serious risk of Argentina-isation, successive mad populists each making everything worse, things being worse in turn increasing the chances a loony populist gains power etc.

[Yeeb]

It's a description of the sort of person who thinks they have some sort of connection to the UK and know anything about the place, despite their family being in Southern Africa for centuries and never having lived in the UK. It's obviously not a description of Saffas living in the UK, because I specifically said these people that do move to the UK are typically disappointed and re-emigrate.

Do you have a better explanation for why the Musk family are interested in the UK and are happy to share their far right views on the place? Happy to defend support for violent racist rioters as "just Facebook posts" even? Why not say Portugal/Netherlands/Germany?

Musk and his old man seem to have similar views on the UK. I know (far better than yourself) where it's probably all coming from.

I think you must know a certain kind of saffa, I know precisely zero who have immigrated back to that shithole when they have have a great life in Wimbledonfontaine or wherever. Weather aside , it’s hard to see how anyone could be disappointed with a country who doesn’t have BEE , is still relatively safe and high paying jobs available for educated saffas.

I don’t pretend to understand the musk family or their intentions or apparent connection to uk is, I thought his background was more Canadian than pommie anyways.
Anyhows he’s just put £100 big into Farages pockets

Right. You seem to be mostly upset that I posted a South African could move to the UK be a bit disappointed then re-emigrate somewhere else. It's happened with about half of the South Africans I've known in the UK. Even among the small group of South African posters on here, there's people who have moved to the UK and left. Last time I looked at the emigration data it also showed declining interest in the UK from South Africans.

All a bit besides the point I was making. Which was about this: "I don’t pretend to understand the musk family or their intentions or apparent connection to uk is".

Am not upset in the slightest , but your group of saffas experiences do seem to fall into the racist stereotype bigot category & believe what’s in the daily mail. All that hate the nhs stuff / don’t know wales or scotland existing thing your wrote - just sounds very odd and no relation to any saffas I’ve heard of. If they are the sort of people who tried Uk for a bit and then fucked off back to S.A., well I think UK is better for their absence quite frankly.

[Yeeb]

It would probably be wise to be a bit interested in the views and intentions of someone that wants to inject $100m straight into the veins of the most reactionary populist forces in your country. Starting with the most basic question "why"? And if the answer comes back "England is a place we see as a sort of parent country, we all come from England really", then it's time to start worrying. But what do I know?

There's room for America to shrug off Trump 2, it's a superpower and is playing by different rules (literally different rules, nothing can stop a PM with a stable majority). If after the last decade and half the UK has a short breather under Labour then goes on another mad populist crusade presumably with Frog Face as PM, it's going to lock in the damage already done and add more. If that came to pass there would be a serious risk of Argentina-isation, successive mad populists each making everything worse, things being worse in turn increasing the chances a loony populist gains power etc.

It would make little difference who is in power, to most people’s lives. The world moves on, Trump, Boris , Blair , d-cam - will soon enough be forgotten and have little day to day effect on Uk citizens lives. Scousers will still bang on about Thatcher for another century anyways, and Ireland and their spud famine for several centuries.
If a musk backed Farage does bring Norsefire to a landslide GE victory in 2029 ans all those racist saffas leave and head back to SA, that can only be a good thing.

[_Os_]

Am not upset in the slightest , but your group of saffas experiences do seem to fall into the racist stereotype bigot category & believe what’s in the daily mail. All that hate the nhs stuff / don’t know wales or scotland existing thing your wrote - just sounds very odd and no relation to any saffas I’ve heard of. If they are the sort of people who tried Uk for a bit and then fucked off back to S.A., well I think UK is better for their absence quite frankly.

This has become a bit silly.

Firstly I said "some" not "all". People who think they're British, when they in fact are not, tend to have a specific set of views on what British identity is formed by basically nonsense stereotypes. They then rock up in the UK and discover immigrants who they dislike (not understanding they are an immigrant), chavs who they dislike, people who hate the monarchy who they dislike, and all the rest which doesn't fit into some twee movie, in other words they discover what the UK actually is ... then decide that's not them at all. I never said they went back to SA you decided that, these are highly mobile educated people whose whole identity is based around saying SA is a "shithole" which they aren't part of because they're "British" supposedly, they pick another Anglo country.

It's just a very particular type of South African that says they're British when they aren't. More common among older white English speakers.

[_Os_]

It would make little difference who is in power

Frog Face target voter alert!

[Paddington Bear]

Am not upset in the slightest , but your group of saffas experiences do seem to fall into the racist stereotype bigot category & believe what’s in the daily mail. All that hate the nhs stuff / don’t know wales or scotland existing thing your wrote - just sounds very odd and no relation to any saffas I’ve heard of. If they are the sort of people who tried Uk for a bit and then fucked off back to S.A., well I think UK is better for their absence quite frankly.

This has become a bit silly.

Firstly I said "some" not "all". People who think they're British, when they in fact are not, tend to have a specific set of views on what British identity is formed by basically nonsense stereotypes. They then rock up in the UK and discover immigrants who they dislike (not understanding they are an immigrant), chavs who they dislike, people who hate the monarchy who they dislike, and all the rest which doesn't fit into some twee movie, in other words they discover what the UK actually is ... then decide that's not them at all. I never said they went back to SA you decided that, these are highly mobile educated people whose whole identity is based around saying SA is a "shithole" which they aren't part of because they're "British" supposedly, they pick another Anglo country.

It's just a very particular type of South African that says they're British when they aren't. More common among older white English speakers.

Rather than a great insight into South Africans this is just diaspora politics and cuts both ways. As one of the all time great reddit AMAs started:
‘I’m a Turkish Nationalist, AMA’
‘What’s it like living in Berlin?’

[_Os_]

Am not upset in the slightest , but your group of saffas experiences do seem to fall into the racist stereotype bigot category & believe what’s in the daily mail. All that hate the nhs stuff / don’t know wales or scotland existing thing your wrote - just sounds very odd and no relation to any saffas I’ve heard of. If they are the sort of people who tried Uk for a bit and then fucked off back to S.A., well I think UK is better for their absence quite frankly.

This has become a bit silly.

Firstly I said "some" not "all". People who think they're British, when they in fact are not, tend to have a specific set of views on what British identity is formed by basically nonsense stereotypes. They then rock up in the UK and discover immigrants who they dislike (not understanding they are an immigrant), chavs who they dislike, people who hate the monarchy who they dislike, and all the rest which doesn't fit into some twee movie, in other words they discover what the UK actually is ... then decide that's not them at all. I never said they went back to SA you decided that, these are highly mobile educated people whose whole identity is based around saying SA is a "shithole" which they aren't part of because they're "British" supposedly, they pick another Anglo country.

It's just a very particular type of South African that says they're British when they aren't. More common among older white English speakers.

Rather than a great insight into South Africans this is just diaspora politics and cuts both ways. As one of the all time great reddit AMAs started:
‘I’m a Turkish Nationalist, AMA’
‘What’s it like living in Berlin?’

Nah, that doesn't ring true. Few South Africans actually live outside SA, there's more Turks in Germany than there are South Africans outside SA in total, and as I've described at length some of those people are under the delusion they're not South African (ever heard Musk refer to himself as South African?). I've never met an SA nationalist of any description outside SA. Disproportionately those overseas are English speaking whites, not exactly a massively heterogenous group, the only flavour is liberal even those that lean right are libertarians.

The gateway to going a bit loony seems to start with saying they're not South African, which opens the door to constructing quite a strange identity and set of beliefs from whatever populist nonsense they find around themselves. Musk seems to be constructing an identity from internet memes.

[fishfoodie]

It would probably be wise to be a bit interested in the views and intentions of someone that wants to inject $100m straight into the veins of the most reactionary populist forces in your country. Starting with the most basic question "why"? And if the answer comes back "England is a place we see as a sort of parent country, we all come from England really", then it's time to start worrying. But what do I know?

There's room for America to shrug off Trump 2, it's a superpower and is playing by different rules (literally different rules, nothing can stop a PM with a stable majority). If after the last decade and half the UK has a short breather under Labour then goes on another mad populist crusade presumably with Frog Face as PM, it's going to lock in the damage already done and add more. If that came to pass there would be a serious risk of Argentina-isation, successive mad populists each making everything worse, things being worse in turn increasing the chances a loony populist gains power etc.

It would make little difference who is in power, to most people’s lives. The world moves on, Trump, Boris , Blair , d-cam - will soon enough be forgotten and have little day to day effect on Uk citizens lives. Scousers will still bang on about Thatcher for another century anyways, and Ireland and their spud famine for several centuries.
If a musk backed Farage does bring Norsefire to a landslide GE victory in 2029 ans all those racist saffas leave and head back to SA, that can only be a good thing.

Yeah, I mean the Brexit was years ago, who cares now 8 years later ?

And planned Austerity was even longer ago, & hey, there are certainly no consequences today that anyone but a loon could blame on the Party that decided that protecting Bankers bonuses was more important that funding Councils & Schools, & the NHS, etc, etc etc

[Slick]

This has become a bit silly.

Firstly I said "some" not "all". People who think they're British, when they in fact are not, tend to have a specific set of views on what British identity is formed by basically nonsense stereotypes. They then rock up in the UK and discover immigrants who they dislike (not understanding they are an immigrant), chavs who they dislike, people who hate the monarchy who they dislike, and all the rest which doesn't fit into some twee movie, in other words they discover what the UK actually is ... then decide that's not them at all. I never said they went back to SA you decided that, these are highly mobile educated people whose whole identity is based around saying SA is a "shithole" which they aren't part of because they're "British" supposedly, they pick another Anglo country.

It's just a very particular type of South African that says they're British when they aren't. More common among older white English speakers.

Rather than a great insight into South Africans this is just diaspora politics and cuts both ways. As one of the all time great reddit AMAs started:
‘I’m a Turkish Nationalist, AMA’
‘What’s it like living in Berlin?’

Nah, that doesn't ring true. Few South Africans actually live outside SA, there's more Turks in Germany than there are South Africans outside SA in total, and as I've described at length some of those people are under the delusion they're not South African (ever heard Musk refer to himself as South African?). I've never met an SA nationalist of any description outside SA. Disproportionately those overseas are English speaking whites, not exactly a massively heterogenous group, the only flavour is liberal even those that lean right are libertarians.

The gateway to going a bit loony seems to start with saying they're not South African, which opens the door to constructing quite a strange identity and set of beliefs from whatever populist nonsense they find around themselves. Musk seems to be constructing an identity from internet memes.

You’ve gone from using “some” to insinuate a lot of Saffers to, after being challenged, to saying “some” means hardly any really. As PB says, this seems to be more a bugbear of yours than an actual thing.

Anyway, could you explain (in less than 2000 words if possible) what you were meaning on the free speech and Parliamentary Privilege thing? Genuine question, seemed a bit of an odd route to go down

[_Os_]

You’ve gone from using “some” to insinuate a lot of Saffers to, after being challenged, to saying “some” means hardly any really. As PB says, this seems to be more a bugbear of yours than an actual thing.

It's very simple, a white English speaking South African that has any inclinations towards ethno nationalism no matter how mild, isn't going to say they're South African. They're going to say they're British or something similar, and why are they saying that? Because they're not happy with who they're sharing the South African identity with.

I said "some" to mean exactly that. We are discussing the individual motivations of Musk, someone who never refers to himself as South African.

Anyway, could you explain (in less than 2000 words if possible) what you were meaning on the free speech and Parliamentary Privilege thing? Genuine question, seemed a bit of an odd route to go down

Musk amplifies the "two tier policing" stuff. That it's unjust to jail people for Facebook posts which supported racist violence. This position is built on the idea that the UK has always been pro-free speech and you can say whatever you want. That has never been the case in the UK, if it was the case having carve outs for free speech would be redundant. It was obvious at the time people would be going to jail for social media comments, I posted as much.

[Paddington Bear]

I’m sorry this idea that South Africans outside of SA don’t have a rose tinted view of the old country is laughable, Saffers in England have a well earned reputation for telling us how much they don’t like XYZ over here and how much better it was at home

[Sandstorm]

I’m sorry this idea that South Africans outside of SA don’t have a rose tinted view of the old country is laughable, Saffers in England have a well earned reputation for telling us how much they don’t like XYZ over here and how much better it was at home

If they're talking about the beaches, the weather and the women, then yes! Otherwise I don't know any UK Saffers who prefer the Old Country.

If we did, many more would head home for good.

[Paddington Bear]

I’m sorry this idea that South Africans outside of SA don’t have a rose tinted view of the old country is laughable, Saffers in England have a well earned reputation for telling us how much they don’t like XYZ over here and how much better it was at home

If they're talking about the beaches, the weather and the women, then yes! Otherwise I don't know any UK Saffers who prefer the Old Country.

If we did, many more would head home for good.

It’s more low level, could get x service better at home etc. Clearly there are reasons they don’t head home which is the point - all people with a connection to an ‘old country’ tend to put it on a pedestal when they’re not actually there, regardless of what country it is. Hence the phenomenon of internet warriors telling you that Turkey is the greatest country in the world from their flat in Berlin, or Pakistanis from their place in Bradford etc etc.

[Sandstorm]

I’m sorry this idea that South Africans outside of SA don’t have a rose tinted view of the old country is laughable, Saffers in England have a well earned reputation for telling us how much they don’t like XYZ over here and how much better it was at home

If they're talking about the beaches, the weather and the women, then yes! Otherwise I don't know any UK Saffers who prefer the Old Country.

If we did, many more would head home for good.

It’s more low level, could get x service better at home etc. Clearly there are reasons they don’t head home which is the point - all people with a connection to an ‘old country’ tend to put it on a pedestal when they’re not actually there, regardless of what country it is. Hence the phenomenon of internet warriors telling you that Turkey is the greatest country in the world from their flat in Berlin, or Pakistanis from their place in Bradford etc etc.

[Slick]

I’m sorry this idea that South Africans outside of SA don’t have a rose tinted view of the old country is laughable, Saffers in England have a well earned reputation for telling us how much they don’t like XYZ over here and how much better it was at home

If they're talking about the beaches, the weather and the women, then yes! Otherwise I don't know any UK Saffers who prefer the Old Country.

If we did, many more would head home for good.

It's a fair cop

[_Os_]

It’s more low level, could get x service better at home etc.

Those low level nationalists.

White English speakers are fairly infamous/famous (depending on perspective) in SA for being liberal, unlike nationalists they're going to give unrestrained criticism. Quite amusing you think there's a lot of South Africans in the UK who are uncritical of SA, I've never met them. The 2021 census data was that out of everyone in the UK born in SA (a broad definition which captures people who aren't South African in any meaningful way), half say their ethnicity is "white British" and one third "white other". This isn't a broad sample of SA society we're looking at, I'm guessing Turks in Germany are more representative of Turkey.

It's possible what I'm describing is just off the map for someone that isn't a white English speaking South African, but there's a particular type of person that is very obviously South African but says they're not or tries to hide it. It's not common to ask someone who is South African, "are you South African?". It does exist though. There's been extreme examples in UK politics before, Arthur Kemp was the brain behind the BNP and later campaigned for Brexit to stop immigrants, doubt the UK speaking English was a deciding factor for him moving to the UK.

It now looks like we have a guy who obviously is South African but declines to describe himself as such, giving $100m to a right wing populist party in a country he's not from and has never lived in. Until anyone comes up with a better explanation I'm going to fill in the gaps. It honestly just looks like Musk's politics have become more weird the longer he's been in America saying he's American.

[robmatic]

This isn't a broad sample of SA society we're looking at, I'm guessing Turks in Germany are more representative of Turkey.

Turks in Germany are notorious in Turkey for overwhelmingly voting for Erdoğan and the AKP in contrast to Turks in the homeland, who are much more evenly split across the secular/Islamist-nationalist divide.

[Paddington Bear]

It’s more low level, could get x service better at home etc.

Those low level nationalists.

White English speakers are fairly infamous/famous (depending on perspective) in SA for being liberal, unlike nationalists they're going to give unrestrained criticism. Quite amusing you think there's a lot of South Africans in the UK who are uncritical of SA, I've never met them. The 2021 census data was that out of everyone in the UK born in SA (a broad definition which captures people who aren't South African in any meaningful way), half say their ethnicity is "white British" and one third "white other". This isn't a broad sample of SA society we're looking at, I'm guessing Turks in Germany are more representative of Turkey.

It's possible what I'm describing is just off the map for someone that isn't a white English speaking South African, but there's a particular type of person that is very obviously South African but says they're not or tries to hide it. It's not common to ask someone who is South African, "are you South African?". It does exist though. There's been extreme examples in UK politics before, Arthur Kemp was the brain behind the BNP and later campaigned for Brexit to stop immigrants, doubt the UK speaking English was a deciding factor for him moving to the UK.

It now looks like we have a guy who obviously is South African but declines to describe himself as such, giving $100m to a right wing populist party in a country he's not from and has never lived in. Until anyone comes up with a better explanation I'm going to fill in the gaps. It honestly just looks like Musk's politics have become more weird the longer he's been in America saying he's American.

I think you’re completely missing the point but I’m not sure it’s worth spending my afternoon on

[_Os_]

This isn't a broad sample of SA society we're looking at, I'm guessing Turks in Germany are more representative of Turkey.

Turks in Germany are notorious in Turkey for overwhelmingly voting for Erdoğan and the AKP in contrast to Turks in the homeland, who are much more evenly split across the secular/Islamist-nationalist divide.

Interesting. In SA it's the opposite, the quite accurate perception is that most South Africans outside SA are white English speakers who are liberal (a tiny minority now probably under 4%). Back in the day there was a liberal party PFP (Progressive federal Party), it was mockingly known as Packing For Perth.

[_Os_]

It’s more low level, could get x service better at home etc.

Those low level nationalists.

White English speakers are fairly infamous/famous (depending on perspective) in SA for being liberal, unlike nationalists they're going to give unrestrained criticism. Quite amusing you think there's a lot of South Africans in the UK who are uncritical of SA, I've never met them. The 2021 census data was that out of everyone in the UK born in SA (a broad definition which captures people who aren't South African in any meaningful way), half say their ethnicity is "white British" and one third "white other". This isn't a broad sample of SA society we're looking at, I'm guessing Turks in Germany are more representative of Turkey.

It's possible what I'm describing is just off the map for someone that isn't a white English speaking South African, but there's a particular type of person that is very obviously South African but says they're not or tries to hide it. It's not common to ask someone who is South African, "are you South African?". It does exist though. There's been extreme examples in UK politics before, Arthur Kemp was the brain behind the BNP and later campaigned for Brexit to stop immigrants, doubt the UK speaking English was a deciding factor for him moving to the UK.

It now looks like we have a guy who obviously is South African but declines to describe himself as such, giving $100m to a right wing populist party in a country he's not from and has never lived in. Until anyone comes up with a better explanation I'm going to fill in the gaps. It honestly just looks like Musk's politics have become more weird the longer he's been in America saying he's American.

I think you’re completely missing the point but I’m not sure it’s worth spending my afternoon on

Sorry chief, you're just wrong about the nationalists living outside SA. If you're put off by an obvious truth like "the weather is kak", I have no idea what you'll make of the actual nationalists.

Back to Arthur Kemp, I had forgotten some of the details. It seems a right wing party in the UK has been funded by South Africans before, of course they're very unlikely to be people who actually call themselves South African, they're not supporting the Boks on the weekend. If you're an ethno nationalist white English speaking South African, you disassociate with South Africa almost by definition. They're definitely nationalists, just in an entirely different way to what you think. They're unlikely to be the racist Afrikaners of legend either. They're going to be English speaking whites, highly educated urbane and refined people, who just happen to have entirely false notions of what the UK is that they've unfortunately built their identity around. If you know, then you know.

According to the anti-racism magazine Searchlight, however, the largest traffic to the BNP's website comes from South Africa and it claims the party is targeting wealthy white South Africans for donations. "Many of them may be friends and relations of the growing number of South African BNP members, of whom Arthur Kemp, editor of the BNP website and in charge of the ideological training of the party's 250 or so elite activists, is the most prominent," Searchlight's website says.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 82302.html

[Paddington Bear]

Those low level nationalists.

White English speakers are fairly infamous/famous (depending on perspective) in SA for being liberal, unlike nationalists they're going to give unrestrained criticism. Quite amusing you think there's a lot of South Africans in the UK who are uncritical of SA, I've never met them. The 2021 census data was that out of everyone in the UK born in SA (a broad definition which captures people who aren't South African in any meaningful way), half say their ethnicity is "white British" and one third "white other". This isn't a broad sample of SA society we're looking at, I'm guessing Turks in Germany are more representative of Turkey.

It's possible what I'm describing is just off the map for someone that isn't a white English speaking South African, but there's a particular type of person that is very obviously South African but says they're not or tries to hide it. It's not common to ask someone who is South African, "are you South African?". It does exist though. There's been extreme examples in UK politics before, Arthur Kemp was the brain behind the BNP and later campaigned for Brexit to stop immigrants, doubt the UK speaking English was a deciding factor for him moving to the UK.

It now looks like we have a guy who obviously is South African but declines to describe himself as such, giving $100m to a right wing populist party in a country he's not from and has never lived in. Until anyone comes up with a better explanation I'm going to fill in the gaps. It honestly just looks like Musk's politics have become more weird the longer he's been in America saying he's American.

I think you’re completely missing the point but I’m not sure it’s worth spending my afternoon on

Sorry chief, you're just wrong about the nationalists living outside SA. If you're put off by an obvious truth like "the weather is kak", I have no idea what you'll make of the actual nationalists.

Back to Arthur Kemp, I had forgotten some of the details. It seems a right wing party in the UK has been funded by South Africans before, of course they're very unlikely to be people who actually call themselves South African, they're not supporting the Boks on the weekend. If you're an ethno nationalist white English speaking South African, you disassociate with South Africa almost by definition. They're definitely nationalists, just in an entirely different way to what you think. They're unlikely to be the racist Afrikaners of legend either. They're going to be English speaking whites, highly educated urbane and refined people, who just happen to have entirely false notions of what the UK is that they've unfortunately built their identity around. If you know, then you know.

According to the anti-racism magazine Searchlight, however, the largest traffic to the BNP's website comes from South Africa and it claims the party is targeting wealthy white South Africans for donations. "Many of them may be friends and relations of the growing number of South African BNP members, of whom Arthur Kemp, editor of the BNP website and in charge of the ideological training of the party's 250 or so elite activists, is the most prominent," Searchlight's website says.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 82302.html

I never discussed SA nationalists and my only reference to nationalists was in passing to another point with what I find a quite amusing all time reddit post. So thanks for proving my point

[Slick]

You’ve gone from using “some” to insinuate a lot of Saffers to, after being challenged, to saying “some” means hardly any really. As PB says, this seems to be more a bugbear of yours than an actual thing.

It's very simple, a white English speaking South African that has any inclinations towards ethno nationalism no matter how mild, isn't going to say they're South African. They're going to say they're British or something similar, and why are they saying that? Because they're not happy with who they're sharing the South African identity with.

I said "some" to mean exactly that. We are discussing the individual motivations of Musk, someone who never refers to himself as South African.

Anyway, could you explain (in less than 2000 words if possible) what you were meaning on the free speech and Parliamentary Privilege thing? Genuine question, seemed a bit of an odd route to go down

Musk amplifies the "two tier policing" stuff. That it's unjust to jail people for Facebook posts which supported racist violence. This position is built on the idea that the UK has always been pro-free speech and you can say whatever you want. That has never been the case in the UK, if it was the case having carve outs for free speech would be redundant. It was obvious at the time people would be going to jail for social media comments, I posted as much.

Isn’t the whole point of Speakers Corners that folk can go and say what they want? They were originally designed for that? Maybe I’m misunderstanding but I can’t see how the creation of areas for free speech is proof that free speech doesn’t exist

[_Os_]

I never discussed SA nationalists and my only reference to nationalists was in passing to another point with what I find a quite amusing all time reddit post. So thanks for proving my point

Rob, who lives in Turkey has posted the reason Turks in Germany are known for being nationalists, it's because they're far more nationalist than Turks in Turkey. As in they literally support AKP and Erdogan more than Turks in Turkey. Which puts a different spin on that Reddit post.

As myself and SS have posted, South Africans outside SA aren't known for being nationalists. They're not voting for the ANC and they're not voting for any tiny white or Afrikaner nationalist party, they're voting for the biggest liberal party. Because as I've described at some length, it's disproportionately white English speakers living outside SA, its the nature of the beast that anyone with that identity who goes nationalist (a minority, but they definitely exist) isn't going to say they're South African, after that supporting whatever mad right wingery is coming out of the US or UK seems to become quite easy.

Bit of a stretch that someone saying the weather is bad and the Home Office is shithouse or whatever (just the blunt truth), turns someone into something akin to an AKP voting Erdogan supporter.

[Paddington Bear]

I never discussed SA nationalists and my only reference to nationalists was in passing to another point with what I find a quite amusing all time reddit post. So thanks for proving my point

Rob, who lives in Turkey has posted the reason Turks in Germany are known for being nationalists, it's because they're far more nationalist than Turks in Turkey. As in they literally support AKP and Erdogan more than Turks in Turkey. Which puts a different spin on that Reddit post.

As myself and SS have posted, South Africans outside SA aren't known for being nationalists. They're not voting for the ANC and they're not voting for any tiny white or Afrikaner nationalist party, they're voting for the biggest liberal party. Because as I've described at some length, it's disproportionately white English speakers living outside SA, its the nature of the beast that anyone with that identity who goes nationalist (a minority, but they definitely exist) isn't going to say they're South African, after that supporting whatever mad right wingery is coming out of the US or UK seems to become quite easy.

Bit of a stretch that someone saying the weather is bad and the Home Office is shithouse or whatever (just the blunt truth), turns someone into something akin to an AKP voting Erdogan supporter.

OK, so for the last time I have not been talking about nationalism, you have

[_Os_]

Anyway, could you explain (in less than 2000 words if possible) what you were meaning on the free speech and Parliamentary Privilege thing? Genuine question, seemed a bit of an odd route to go down

Musk amplifies the "two tier policing" stuff. That it's unjust to jail people for Facebook posts which supported racist violence. This position is built on the idea that the UK has always been pro-free speech and you can say whatever you want. That has never been the case in the UK, if it was the case having carve outs for free speech would be redundant. It was obvious at the time people would be going to jail for social media comments, I posted as much.

Isn’t the whole point of Speakers Corners that folk can go and say what they want? They were originally designed for that? Maybe I’m misunderstanding but I can’t see how the creation of areas for free speech is proof that free speech doesn’t exist

The contention of folk like Musk is basically that the whole of the UK is speakers' corner (that there's a convention that any speech goes) or the whole of the UK has parliamentary privilege (that there's a law that all speech is protected). The notion is that it's the deep rooted tradition of the UK to have free speech laws akin to the US spanning the entire country. That people were instead jailed for speech violations, something which was predictable, is for people like Musk an affront to what they understand the UK to be. This is then spun out into further talking points: Starmer is fascist/Starmer must resign/two tier justice system.

Put simply Musk and others are just wrong. That isn't where the UK has ever been on free speech. There's limited and defined areas where that notion of free speech exists in the UK, those are the exception. The rule is if what you're saying is disliked by someone powerful, or it's what the government doesn't like and is said at the wrong time, you could find yourself in court. The UK is the place where a journalist was dragged to court by Yevgeny Prigozhin for saying he was the leader of Wagner, when he was the leader of Wagner.

Now apply how wrong Musk gets that, to all his views on the UK.

[Biffer]

Toby Young given a peerage. What the ever loving fuck.

[SaintK]

Toby Young given a peerage. What the ever loving fuck.

Badenoch promoting her anti-woke mates.
He's an utter twat.

In 2018, Young was forced to resign from the board of the universities regulator after a series of tweets emerged in which he commented on various women’s breasts. E.g: “What happened to Winkleman’s breasts? Put on some weight, girlie.”
He was condemned after suggesting that wheelchair ramps in schools were a symptom of “ghastly inclusivity”.
He has also proposed offering “parents on low incomes with below-average IQs” the option of genetically engineering their embryos to make the child clever.
More recently, he was found by the press regulator to have published “significantly misleading” claims about the Covid pandemic

[Paddington Bear]

Toby Young given a peerage. What the ever loving fuck.

Ultimate example of failing upwards. A lifetime of £300 a day supplements for turning up before hitting the subsidised bars.

Which come to think of it is a great advert for getting in on the grift, much to consider

[Slick]

Toby Young given a peerage. What the ever loving fuck.

Badenoch promoting her anti-woke mates.
He's an utter twat.

In 2018, Young was forced to resign from the board of the universities regulator after a series of tweets emerged in which he commented on various women’s breasts. E.g: “What happened to Winkleman’s breasts? Put on some weight, girlie.”
He was condemned after suggesting that wheelchair ramps in schools were a symptom of “ghastly inclusivity”.
He has also proposed offering “parents on low incomes with below-average IQs” the option of genetically engineering their embryos to make the child clever.
More recently, he was found by the press regulator to have published “significantly misleading” claims about the Covid pandemic

And the utterly moronic Coffey

[_Os_]

OK, so for the last time I have not been talking about nationalism, you have

Did you or did you not post this:
"all people with a connection to an ‘old country’ tend to put it on a pedestal when they’re not actually there, regardless of what country it is. Hence the phenomenon of internet warriors telling you that Turkey is the greatest country in the world from their flat in Berlin, or Pakistanis from their place in Bradford etc etc.".

All those Saffas in London tapping away online posting their love for the ANC and how SA is perfect, who don't in fact exist. The stereotype of what a Saffa in London posts online, is the exact opposite.

But I'll take you at your word, go back to the original post and ignore the Reddit/nationalism comment that was there to add some colour:

Rather than a great insight into South Africans this is just diaspora politics and cuts both ways. As one of the all time great reddit AMAs started:
‘I’m a Turkish Nationalist, AMA’
‘What’s it like living in Berlin?’

South Africans in the UK making criticisms grounded in their life experience (in your words "more low level, could get x service better at home etc"), is the same as a smaller group of people who say they're not South African at all and in my experience get very disappointed in the UK then leave (and not as Yeeb assumed back to SA)? Rose tinted just different directions? Doesn't really work, one is saying something as obvious as "the weather is bad", the other is really quite mad.

No clue how any of it refutes my explanation of why someone who isn't from the UK, parents aren't from the UK, has never lived in the UK, wants to pump $100m into UK right wing populism. Until a better explanation is offered I'm going with "his understanding of the UK is cartoonish". I'm open to some greed/self interest take as an alternative as the initial post stated, but there seems to be nothing obvious in that direction at the moment.

[Hal Jordan]

Toby Young given a peerage. What the ever loving fuck.

Ultimate example of failing upwards. A lifetime of £300 a day supplements for turning up before hitting the subsidised bars.

Which come to think of it is a great advert for getting in on the grift, much to consider

Small wonder that so many apparently reasonable people go full frother for the money.

Edit: Toby Young is not included in this category, he appears to have been a cunt from.day one.