Heart of darkness: Lucy Letby

[C69]

The traditional hierarchy exists to an extent tbh in lots of places the Nurse management are much stronger and malicious and have more sway than the medical management.
There has been a mushrooming or Nursing Management posts that dwarfs any other profession in the NHS.
Most Chief Nurses surround themselves with people they hàve worked with before and create an incestuous culture around themselves to protect their Empires.

[geordie_6]

Denied permission to appeal.

BBC News - Lucy Letby denied permission for baby murders appeal
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9773l3qzl4o

[Waudbee]

Denied permission to appeal.

BBC News - Lucy Letby denied permission for baby murders appeal
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9773l3qzl4o

[Blackmac]

This is so typical of Govt depts that it verges on the absurd. That is not a fault of private provision, that is a fault of budget setting within the NHS that results in them paying more in total than they need to.

It's astonishing they can't just offer their staff double time overtime instead of going to agency, but they only offer standard rates for extra shifts.

NHS Scotland has every so often placed a ban on use of nurse Agency staff except in some small highly specialist areas. All the boards run staff banks, equivalent to an internal agency, where staff are paid going rate for the job, can work flexibly and get all the other payments too ie annual leave, CPD, etc but less than what agencies might pay. Many nurses work on bank as they dont want to commit to regular hours of full time job, dont want to work at a senior level or have retired but want to keep working flexibly part time. However it requires the NHS and Gov to hold its nerve to try and drive the staff away from agencies and back into boards either as permanent staff or onto banks by refusing to use agency staff no matter what. This does mean in short term some pain for NHS until agency staff realise that if they want work they need to go into NHS staff bank or contract with NHS. It works but is painful and has usually been scuppered when for example the Gov puts NHS under pressure to meet existing or some new targets - then the NHS is left with dilemma of not hitting Gov target and getting it in the neck or quickly increasing staff by using whatever sources they can ie agency staff. My sympathy also lies with the Senior Nurse desperately trying to staff a rota to 'safe levels' but being told they cant use agency staff as a last resort, however NHS can put processes in place to support this over short term.

Agencies are very flexible, can pay what they want and very good at knowing where the NHS is hurting - they tend to be run by ex NHS staff - and know how to increase NHS dependency on their agency staff and how to attract certain groups of staff away from the NHS. Agencies don't care about NHS services they are only in it for a quick short term gain and increases prices if they know the NHS is struggling. They will always be there but the NHS can and should manage their dependency on them way down and look to change a lot of their working practices ie improve flexible working, annualized hours, etc and better workforce planning to identify key workforce risks in advance which has been done in the past. If the Gov and NHS, which essentially controls all the supply pipelines for key clinical staff, create a situation where workforce demand exceeds workforce supply then they are creating an environment where agencies will thrive and that is where we are at now! It is another apsect of privatizing the NHS I'm afraid!

The bank system is great to a certain extent and works well but again does not offer any enhanced rates. My wife and her colleagues are continually pressed to do extra shifts at short notice but only ever offered standard rates including any unsocial hours. There is no real incentive and then they have to resort to the agencies and pay the extortionate rates they charge. Why they can't just empower the nurse managers to offer existing staff, say double time, to cover at short notice is ridiculous and would surely help in reducing the agency dependence.

[C69]

I can't get paid overtime and good will has now gone out of the window.
The Tories have made the NHS a basket case and it's not going to be easy to sort.
I am looking to retire as early as possible, I hate the culture of the NHS and the appalling management.

[Uncle fester]

Lucy Letby failed nurse placement for being 'cold'
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyz904y0xyo

Eirian Powell made comments that "Lucy would go far, she had a great career, earmarked her as a good nurse."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz7jd3jd7qvo

[Slick]

Lucy Letby failed nurse placement for being 'cold'
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyz904y0xyo

Eirian Powell made comments that "Lucy would go far, she had a great career, earmarked her as a good nurse."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz7jd3jd7qvo

Private Eye have gone pretty much all in on her side for a new trial. I have to say I’m very surprised and can’t help but think they are going to look very foolish. I just hope they have the decency to put their hands up if that is the case

[dpedin]

Lucy Letby failed nurse placement for being 'cold'
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyz904y0xyo

Eirian Powell made comments that "Lucy would go far, she had a great career, earmarked her as a good nurse."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz7jd3jd7qvo

Private Eye have gone pretty much all in on her side for a new trial. I have to say I’m very surprised and can’t help but think they are going to look very foolish. I just hope they have the decency to put their hands up if that is the case

As I have said previously I have no idea if Letby is guilty of one or all of the deaths. However for her to get away with the number of deaths she has been found guilty of then the whole of the neonatal unit and in particular its senior clinicians and management must be guilty of complete and utter mismanagement and clinical negligence. My experience, albeit limited, is that there should be a whole array of systems in place to monitor and investigate every unexplained death and every spike in deaths rising above a specific level at a unit, regional and national level. Look at the ug scrutiny associated with the unexplained neonatal deaths in Glasgow, eventually attributed to water infection and the detail of subsequent investigations, external reviews and a FAI. The attached doc is an example of the type of wider monitoring of neonatal deaths in Scotland which isn't perfect but an example.

https://www.healthcareimprovementscotla ... MBARGO.pdf

Letby may well be guilty but I suspect a number of deaths not attributed to her have been thrown into the mix to protect the clinicians and managers from their obvious failures. I find it inconceivable that the number of unexplained neonatal deaths can be attributed to a single person despite their criminal intent without it being identified a lot, lot earlier.

[SaintK]

Lucy Letby failed nurse placement for being 'cold'
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyz904y0xyo

Eirian Powell made comments that "Lucy would go far, she had a great career, earmarked her as a good nurse."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz7jd3jd7qvo

Private Eye have gone pretty much all in on her side for a new trial. I have to say I’m very surprised and can’t help but think they are going to look very foolish. I just hope they have the decency to put their hands up if that is the case

It's pretty interesting the Eye are backing Phil Hammond to the hilt editorally on this so far. He's raised some interesting theories and thrown light on just how badly departments are run and managed across the board
The senior management at the Countess of Chester hospital are in full arse covering mode even though the neonatal unit sounds as if it was already a basket case and dreadfully managed. I guess the thought of corporate manslaughter charges would do that.
The main "expert" witness for the prosecution Dr Evans comes over as a know it all, arrogant twat of a human being but appears to have been stood down by Cheshire police even though there are potentially another 25 "suspicious" cases to be investigated.
All in all whether she's guily or not it paints a hideous picture of just how dysfunctional the NHS is.

[Margin__Walker]

Just feels like something that will run and run. There's a lot about the case that seems unsatisfactory.

She may well be guilty, but the case that was built seems to be based around throwing a lot of stuff at a wall to see what sticks. Wouldn't be at all surprised if one or more of the murders or attempted murders she was convicted of was naturally occuring.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Lucy Letby failed nurse placement for being 'cold'
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyz904y0xyo

Eirian Powell made comments that "Lucy would go far, she had a great career, earmarked her as a good nurse."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz7jd3jd7qvo

Private Eye have gone pretty much all in on her side for a new trial. I have to say I’m very surprised and can’t help but think they are going to look very foolish. I just hope they have the decency to put their hands up if that is the case

It's pretty interesting the Eye are backing Phil Hammond to the hilt editorally on this so far. He's raised some interesting theories and thrown light on just how badly departments are run and managed across the board
The senior management at the Countess of Chester hospital are in full arse covering mode even though the neonatal unit sounds as if it was already a basket case and dreadfully managed. I guess the thought of corporate manslaughter charges would do that.
The main "expert" witness for the prosecution Dr Evans comes over as a know it all, arrogant twat of a human being but appears to have been stood down by Cheshire police even though there are potentially another 25 "suspicious" cases to be investigated.
All in all whether she's guily or not it paints a hideous picture of just how dysfunctional the NHS is.

Private Eye have some form in this. They went all in for Andrew Wakefield and the MMR/Autism thing long after it was clear the guy was a fraud.

[Brazil]

I was about to say the same thing Dinsdale. For every Post Office scandal there's a comparable fuck up, and I know from their articles on my industry you have to take their reporting with a pinch of salt as it tends to lean heavily on individual sources that suit their agenda.

[SaintK]

Private Eye have gone pretty much all in on her side for a new trial. I have to say I’m very surprised and can’t help but think they are going to look very foolish. I just hope they have the decency to put their hands up if that is the case

It's pretty interesting the Eye are backing Phil Hammond to the hilt editorally on this so far. He's raised some interesting theories and thrown light on just how badly departments are run and managed across the board
The senior management at the Countess of Chester hospital are in full arse covering mode even though the neonatal unit sounds as if it was already a basket case and dreadfully managed. I guess the thought of corporate manslaughter charges would do that.
The main "expert" witness for the prosecution Dr Evans comes over as a know it all, arrogant twat of a human being but appears to have been stood down by Cheshire police even though there are potentially another 25 "suspicious" cases to be investigated.
All in all whether she's guily or not it paints a hideous picture of just how dysfunctional the NHS is.

Private Eye have some form in this. They went all in for Andrew Wakefield and the MMR/Autism thing long after it was clear the guy was a fraud.

Sorry, are you saying they thought Wakefield was correct in his assertions or am I getting confused?
My recollection is that they went after him big time.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

It's pretty interesting the Eye are backing Phil Hammond to the hilt editorally on this so far. He's raised some interesting theories and thrown light on just how badly departments are run and managed across the board
The senior management at the Countess of Chester hospital are in full arse covering mode even though the neonatal unit sounds as if it was already a basket case and dreadfully managed. I guess the thought of corporate manslaughter charges would do that.
The main "expert" witness for the prosecution Dr Evans comes over as a know it all, arrogant twat of a human being but appears to have been stood down by Cheshire police even though there are potentially another 25 "suspicious" cases to be investigated.
All in all whether she's guily or not it paints a hideous picture of just how dysfunctional the NHS is.

Private Eye have some form in this. They went all in for Andrew Wakefield and the MMR/Autism thing long after it was clear the guy was a fraud.

Sorry, are you saying they thought Wakefield was correct in his assertions or am I getting confused?
My recollection is that they went after him big time.

They were actively supporting his theory for long after it has been shown to be a load of bollocks.

[SaintK]

Private Eye have some form in this. They went all in for Andrew Wakefield and the MMR/Autism thing long after it was clear the guy was a fraud.

Sorry, are you saying they thought Wakefield was correct in his assertions or am I getting confused?
My recollection is that they went after him big time.

They were actively supporting his theory for long after it has been shown to be a load of bollocks.

Aaah ok, I don't recall they did but then I'm getting old!!!
Wakefield is still at it but now in the USA. He married some multi billionairess who funds all his anti vax and other wacky conspracy theories but to a wider and more gullible audience

[Enzedder]

Sorry if RR - is there some element of coincidence in all this?

A neonatal ward manager at Lucy Letby’s hospital outlined 15 reasons why the British nurse could not be to blame for the deaths and collapse of babies, it has emerged.

Documents released for the Thirlwall Inquiry, which is examining how incidents at the Countess of Chester could have been prevented, show that Eirian Powell, Letby’s boss, was unconvinced by allegations against the nurse.

She distributed a document entitled Neonatal Unit review 2015-2016, in May 2016, which gave 15 reasons why it was unlikely there was a baby killer on the ward.

“There is no evidence whatsoever against LL (Lucy Letby) other than coincidence,” she wrote.

“LL works full time and has the qualification in speciality (QIS). She is therefore more likely to be looking after the sickest infant on the unit, LL is also available herself to work overtime when the acuity of the unit is over capacity.”

The neonatal ward manager went on to point out that the spike in deaths could be accounted for by failings on the unit and elsewhere as well as health problems with the babies.

Powell argued that two of the babies were diagnosed with congenital pneumonia, two had necrotising enterocolitis – a dangerous complication for preterm infants – one mother had a maternal syndrome and one baby had overwhelming sepsis.

“Some of the issues were related to midwifery problems,” she added. “The Cheshire and Mersey transport service have been involved in a few of these mortalities and they may have survived if the service was running adequately.”

She concluded: “Of all the post results there was no evidence of foul play.”

Powell also pointed out that two doctors, Dr John Gibbs and Dr Dave Harkness, had been present at several of the incidents.

Letby was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting to murder seven more at the Countess of Chester Hospital between 2015 and 2016.

Since the verdicts, many scientists, statisticians, doctors and nurses have come forward to question the evidence given to the jury, who were not told about several reviews undertaken by the hospital to find out what was causing the spike in deaths. They largely pointed to overcrowding, sub-optimal care, understaffing and transfer issues.

More here https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/3604 ... s-innocent

[Calculon]

Don't know anything about this case apart from skim reading a small part of the surprisingly lengthy wiki article. She seems a complete nutcase. Is there actually anything to her being innocent or is this like the Amanda Knox
case where otherwise rational people were insisting Knox was guilty despite it being an obvious stich up by the Italians?

[Jethro]

Just so I am absolutely clear on this

YMX has never ever posted racist / xenophobic stuff and I am super super sorry if my earlier post intimated otherwise.

Thank you Donald, good luck with the Presidency.

[Uncle fester]

Sorry if RR - is there some element of coincidence in all this?

A neonatal ward manager at Lucy Letby’s hospital outlined 15 reasons why the British nurse could not be to blame for the deaths and collapse of babies, it has emerged.

Documents released for the Thirlwall Inquiry, which is examining how incidents at the Countess of Chester could have been prevented, show that Eirian Powell, Letby’s boss, was unconvinced by allegations against the nurse.

She distributed a document entitled Neonatal Unit review 2015-2016, in May 2016, which gave 15 reasons why it was unlikely there was a baby killer on the ward.

“There is no evidence whatsoever against LL (Lucy Letby) other than coincidence,” she wrote.

“LL works full time and has the qualification in speciality (QIS). She is therefore more likely to be looking after the sickest infant on the unit, LL is also available herself to work overtime when the acuity of the unit is over capacity.”

The neonatal ward manager went on to point out that the spike in deaths could be accounted for by failings on the unit and elsewhere as well as health problems with the babies.

Powell argued that two of the babies were diagnosed with congenital pneumonia, two had necrotising enterocolitis – a dangerous complication for preterm infants – one mother had a maternal syndrome and one baby had overwhelming sepsis.

“Some of the issues were related to midwifery problems,” she added. “The Cheshire and Mersey transport service have been involved in a few of these mortalities and they may have survived if the service was running adequately.”

She concluded: “Of all the post results there was no evidence of foul play.”

Powell also pointed out that two doctors, Dr John Gibbs and Dr Dave Harkness, had been present at several of the incidents.

Letby was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting to murder seven more at the Countess of Chester Hospital between 2015 and 2016.

Since the verdicts, many scientists, statisticians, doctors and nurses have come forward to question the evidence given to the jury, who were not told about several reviews undertaken by the hospital to find out what was causing the spike in deaths. They largely pointed to overcrowding, sub-optimal care, understaffing and transfer issues.

More here https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/3604 ... s-innocent

There's been a number of these articles and they all ignore the insulin. Those babies were deliberately poisoned.

[Slick]

Don't know anything about this case apart from skim reading a small part of the surprisingly lengthy wiki article. She seems a complete nutcase. Is there actually anything to her being innocent or is this like the Amanda Knox
case where otherwise rational people were insisting Knox was guilty despite it being an obvious stich up by the Italians?

It’s a bit like Covid, lots of people jumping on bandwagons to be different

[Uncle fester]

David Davis sticking his oar in now.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... dApp_Other

[frodder]

She'll be back in court alright....to face more charges

[SaintK]

I wonder where this is going to end up?

Babies the former nurse Lucy Letby was convicted of murdering were in fact the victims of “bad medical care” or deteriorated as a result of natural causes, an expert panel has concluded.
Outlining what the senior Conservative MP David Davis described as “one of worst injustices of recent times”, the international team told a press conference there was “no medical evidence” to support claims of deliberate harm.
A panel of experts, chaired by Dr Shoo Lee, examined the cases of 17 babies whom Letby was charged with murdering or harming at the Countess of Chester hospital in north-west England.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ ... el-finds

[Slick]

I wonder where this is going to end up?

Babies the former nurse Lucy Letby was convicted of murdering were in fact the victims of “bad medical care” or deteriorated as a result of natural causes, an expert panel has concluded.
Outlining what the senior Conservative MP David Davis described as “one of worst injustices of recent times”, the international team told a press conference there was “no medical evidence” to support claims of deliberate harm.
A panel of experts, chaired by Dr Shoo Lee, examined the cases of 17 babies whom Letby was charged with murdering or harming at the Countess of Chester hospital in north-west England.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ ... el-finds

No where I imagine. Did you see any of the press conference? Davis and Lee absolutely loving the attention. It reminds me a bit of the Covid stuff where one or two "experts" getting on a bandwagon gives credibility to the nutters.

[SaintK]

I wonder where this is going to end up?

Babies the former nurse Lucy Letby was convicted of murdering were in fact the victims of “bad medical care” or deteriorated as a result of natural causes, an expert panel has concluded.
Outlining what the senior Conservative MP David Davis described as “one of worst injustices of recent times”, the international team told a press conference there was “no medical evidence” to support claims of deliberate harm.
A panel of experts, chaired by Dr Shoo Lee, examined the cases of 17 babies whom Letby was charged with murdering or harming at the Countess of Chester hospital in north-west England.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ ... el-finds

No where I imagine. Did you see any of the press conference? Davis and Lee absolutely loving the attention. It reminds me a bit of the Covid stuff where one or two "experts" getting on a bandwagon gives credibility to the nutters.

Yes I watched a brief clip on the lunchtime news and don't disagree with yyou.
Wherever it ends up there are still an awful lot of questions to be asked of the senior management at the Countess of Chester's Hospital over that period. Private Eye have been covering this through their "MD" contributor for a long time now and the sheer incompetence and serial buck passing that went is extraordinary.............or not!

[Margin__Walker]

I think the issue really is that it's more than one or two experts. You don't have to be a nutter to have some misgivings about the case and the way medical evidence was solicited and presented. No doubt this is the latest bandwagon for a few covid/5g/15 minute city nutters, but I think it goes further than that.

[Slick]

I think the issue really is that it's more than one or two experts. You don't have to be a nutter to have some misgivings about the case and the way medical evidence was solicited and presented. No doubt this is the latest bandwagon for a few covid/5g/15 minute city nutters, but I think it goes further than that.

Yeah, your probably right that that isn't a fair representation, but it does feel like a bandwagon

[Slick]

I wonder where this is going to end up?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ ... el-finds

No where I imagine. Did you see any of the press conference? Davis and Lee absolutely loving the attention. It reminds me a bit of the Covid stuff where one or two "experts" getting on a bandwagon gives credibility to the nutters.

Yes I watched a brief clip on the lunchtime news and don't disagree with yyou.
Wherever it ends up there are still an awful lot of questions to be asked of the senior management at the Countess of Chester's Hospital over that period. Private Eye have been covering this through their "MD" contributor for a long time now and the sheer incompetence and serial buck passing that went is extraordinary.............or not!

I do think that PE has shot their bolt on this one a bit and are digging in. Could be completely wrong of course but it just doesn't feel right.

[Blackmac]

I think the issue really is that it's more than one or two experts. You don't have to be a nutter to have some misgivings about the case and the way medical evidence was solicited and presented. No doubt this is the latest bandwagon for a few covid/5g/15 minute city nutters, but I think it goes further than that.

Yeah, your probably right that that isn't a fair representation, but it does feel like a bandwagon

It was heavily reported that most of Letby's nursing colleagues still strongly believed in her innocence and felt she was being railroaded to hide care issues in the departments. I'm the least likely person in the world to distrust the British judicial system but this one has me feeling uneasy.

[dpedin]

No where I imagine. Did you see any of the press conference? Davis and Lee absolutely loving the attention. It reminds me a bit of the Covid stuff where one or two "experts" getting on a bandwagon gives credibility to the nutters.

Yes I watched a brief clip on the lunchtime news and don't disagree with yyou.
Wherever it ends up there are still an awful lot of questions to be asked of the senior management at the Countess of Chester's Hospital over that period. Private Eye have been covering this through their "MD" contributor for a long time now and the sheer incompetence and serial buck passing that went is extraordinary.............or not!

I do think that PE has shot their bolt on this one a bit and are digging in. Could be completely wrong of course but it just doesn't feel right.

My concerns remains about the senior clinical management within the unit and across the region. Knowing what happens in NHS in Scotland in monitoring neonatal units and the minute detail that is recorded on bespoke IT systems and audited about every baby and every unexplained incident/death then I find it unbelievable that Letby could commit so many crimes without then being picked up by internal and external review processes. Any unexplained small 'blip' in the expected patterns of care and deaths in NHS Scotland neonatal units is monitored in minute detail and investigated internally and externally to find a reason. There is no way the pattern in Letbys unit would be allowed to have continued as it did. I don't know if she is guilty of murder or not but there has obviously been ongoing systematic failures on behalf of the nurse leaders, consultant body and senior clinicians ie Clinical and Medical Directors. Without doubt any pattern of unexplained illnesses and deaths should have been picked up by their internal audit and review processes and investigated asap. This should also have involved external experts and if required the unit should have been closed until explanations were found. For me this whole episode smells very much of a cover up - Letby may well be guilty of murder but the numbers and timescales are unbelievable.

[Torquemada 1420]

Private Eye have been covering this through their "MD" contributor for a long time now and the sheer incompetence and serial buck passing that went is extraordinary.............or not!

Could be the adopted motto for the NHS.

[dpedin]

Private Eye have been covering this through their "MD" contributor for a long time now and the sheer incompetence and serial buck passing that went is extraordinary.............or not!

Could be the adopted motto for the NHS.

Cheap shot, unnecessary and untrue! The vast majority of neonatal units in the UK are clinically fantastic and do a great job in caring for babies that were only a few years ago unviable. Also those babies are now far more likely to go on and have healthy and fullfilling lives whereas previously they might not have survived without physical or mental issues. The difficulties and risks in looking after a pre term baby who might be born at 24 weeks and weigh only just over a pound are just immense. The pressure clinicians are under working in these units is just immense and more than the average poster on this site could cope with!

It is true that, as in every large organization, there are problems as have been identified in this case, I have seen exactly the same type of issues in every large organisation I have worked in, including some of our largest most profitable and successful private sector ones which were way worse. Thanks feck the Boeing management dont run the NHS then?

[inactionman]

I think the issue really is that it's more than one or two experts. You don't have to be a nutter to have some misgivings about the case and the way medical evidence was solicited and presented. No doubt this is the latest bandwagon for a few covid/5g/15 minute city nutters, but I think it goes further than that.

Yeah, your probably right that that isn't a fair representation, but it does feel like a bandwagon

It was heavily reported that most of Letby's nursing colleagues still strongly believed in her innocence and felt she was being railroaded to hide care issues in the departments. I'm the least likely person in the world to distrust the British judicial system but this one has me feeling uneasy.

Uneasy is exactly how I'm feeling about it. They've gone through the trials and appeals where the evidence has been argued over so I should feel that the conviction is sound but this groundswell of dissent is getting louder . There seem to be challenges to every part of the prosecution case - from medical diagnosis, analysis of rotas, statistics and the interpretations of Letby's behaviour - from a wide number of parties. I recognise a number of the parties have vested interest or probably seek the limelight, however the Royal Statistical Society has requested Justice Thirlwall include investigation in the use of statistical evidence in clinical cases in her remit, as they're more broadly concerned about misrepresentation and misinterpretation.

It could just be that its relatively hot on the heels of the horizon prosecutions, where flawed expert testimony in highly technical areas which wasn't adequately challenged resulted in miscarriages of justice, and I'm seeing Letby's case through that lens.

It just feels odd, to recognise the judicial process has run its course but it doesn't feel like it's in any way concluded.

[Torquemada 1420]

Private Eye have been covering this through their "MD" contributor for a long time now and the sheer incompetence and serial buck passing that went is extraordinary.............or not!

Could be the adopted motto for the NHS.

Cheap shot, unnecessary and untrue! The vast majority of neonatal units in the UK are clinically fantastic and do a great job in caring for babies that were only a few years ago unviable. Also those babies are now far more likely to go on and have healthy and fullfilling lives whereas previously they might not have survived without physical or mental issues. The difficulties and risks in looking after a pre term baby who might be born at 24 weeks and weigh only just over a pound are just immense. The pressure clinicians are under working in these units is just immense and more than the average poster on this site could cope with!

It is true that, as in every large organization, there are problems as have been identified in this case, I have seen exactly the same type of issues in every large organisation I have worked in, including some of our largest most profitable and successful private sector ones which were way worse. Thanks feck the Boeing management dont run the NHS then?

Sorry, and don't take this personally, but I call bollox. The NHS is a basket case, clusterf**k of mismanagement, non existent communication, abrogation of responsibility, buck passing, catastrophic resource waste and a shed load of incompetence and work shy to boot. All resulting in dismal outcomes for patients. And sure, contributory factors such as
- millions of irresponsible, Mcdonalds eating, obese, diabetic, cancer prone tw*ts
- and every Government using it as a political football
are adding to the pressure to an already failed system but failed it is.

You've isolated neonatal which might just be the least bad part of the system but even then I give you Shrewsbury/Telford and Leeds. If you are elderly, you are probably better never going to hospital. Stuff like this
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 08192.html
is the norm. Who was that senior health official last year who stated the last place he'd send an elderly patient to was a hospital because it was in effect a death sentence? I can vouch or that. Several times over.

[Blackmac]

Could be the adopted motto for the NHS.

Cheap shot, unnecessary and untrue! The vast majority of neonatal units in the UK are clinically fantastic and do a great job in caring for babies that were only a few years ago unviable. Also those babies are now far more likely to go on and have healthy and fullfilling lives whereas previously they might not have survived without physical or mental issues. The difficulties and risks in looking after a pre term baby who might be born at 24 weeks and weigh only just over a pound are just immense. The pressure clinicians are under working in these units is just immense and more than the average poster on this site could cope with!

It is true that, as in every large organization, there are problems as have been identified in this case, I have seen exactly the same type of issues in every large organisation I have worked in, including some of our largest most profitable and successful private sector ones which were way worse. Thanks feck the Boeing management dont run the NHS then?

Sorry, and don't take this personally, but I call bollox. The NHS is a basket case, clusterf**k of mismanagement, non existent communication, abrogation of responsibility, buck passing, catastrophic resource waste and a shed load of incompetence and work shy to boot. All resulting in dismal outcomes for patients. And sure, contributory factors such as
- millions of irresponsible, Mcdonalds eating, obese, diabetic, cancer prone tw*ts
- and every Government using it as a political football
are adding to the pressure to an already failed system but failed it is.

You've isolated neonatal which might just be the least bad part of the system but even then I give you Shrewsbury/Telford and Leeds. If you are elderly, you are probably better never going to hospital. Stuff like this
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 08192.html
is the norm. Who was that senior health official last year who stated the last place he'd send an elderly patient to was a hospital because it was in effect a death sentence? I can vouch or that. Several times over.

There might be many problems but "workshy" is certainly not one of them. Most medical and nursing staff in front line settings are absolutely beasted to within an inch of their lives.

[Torquemada 1420]

There might be many problems but "workshy" is certainly not one of them. Most medical and nursing staff in front line settings are absolutely beasted to within an inch of their lives.

I'll split this into 2. Medical staff and the rest (management, admin, car parking attendants, whatever).

That latter group. Classic public sector. Overstaffed and productivity levels that would result in being immediately fired in the private sector.
Medical staff:
- GPs. Significant amount of lazy tw*ts here.
- Hospital staff. There are enough shirkers. No names but I have 2 clients from whom this has come from

1) Is one of the most senior cancer consultant/surgeons in the UK. When I saw him in November he told me the nos of staff "working from home but actually doing bugger all" was
not something I'd believe. He also has so many staff in key areas unavailable (some through sickness too) that it's taking 2 weeks + to get urgent (meant to be next day latest) scans through for his cancer patients. This is a staff issue and not lack of equipment. In his own words, this is the difference now between some of his patients living and dying.
2) The other is (as of end of last year) a retired radiographer at a different hospital. She quit because there were so many staff shortages, many of them on same day "I won't be in" that when she was meant to be working a 3 day week, she was on 5 days+. She loved her job but was p*ssed off that she and others were being forced to carry others' workloads.

So yeah, I don't doubt that you are 100% correct with your comments because
a) They are medical and in the front line and that's now carnage.Partly because lazy GPs are sending people to the hospital: especially from care homes. Partly because of people turning up at A&E of their own volition who should not be there.
b) Which would already have them under pressure.
c) But it's worse because there is significant absenteeism and we can argue the toss over why.

[Blackmac]

There might be many problems but "workshy" is certainly not one of them. Most medical and nursing staff in front line settings are absolutely beasted to within an inch of their lives.

I'll split this into 2. Medical staff and the rest (management, admin, car parking attendants, whatever).

That latter group. Classic public sector. Overstaffed and productivity levels that would result in being immediately fired in the private sector.
Medical staff:
- GPs. Significant amount of lazy tw*ts here.
- Hospital staff. There are enough shirkers. No names but I have 2 clients from whom this has come from

1) Is one of the most senior cancer consultant/surgeons in the UK. When I saw him in November he told me the nos of staff "working from home but actually doing bugger all" was
not something I'd believe. He also has so many staff in key areas unavailable (some through sickness too) that it's taking 2 weeks + to get urgent (meant to be next day latest) scans through for his cancer patients. This is a staff issue and not lack of equipment. In his own words, this is the difference now between some of his patients living and dying.
2) The other is (as of end of last year) a retired radiographer at a different hospital. She quit because there were so many staff shortages, many of them on same day "I won't be in" that when she was meant to be working a 3 day week, she was on 5 days+. She loved her job but was p*ssed off that she and others were being forced to carry others' workloads.

So yeah, I don't doubt that you are 100% correct with your comments because
a) They are medical and in the front line and that's now carnage.Partly because lazy GPs are sending people to the hospital: especially from care homes. Partly because of people turning up at A&E of their own volition who should not be there.
b) Which would already have them under pressure.
c) But it's worse because there is significant absenteeism and we can argue the toss over why.

Like any working environment there will always be the odd chancer but there really isn't a lot of room for them in modern front line public service like nursing and policing. High rates of absenteeism are just an obvious result of the conditions they are working under. My wife's nursing department has been operating at approximately 60% staffing for over a year. It's an extremely high pressure, specialised environment and things are only getting worse as the remaining nurses drop like flies under the pressure.

[Margin__Walker]

Interesting podcast on the Guardian covering recent developments. Investigative reporter who was struggling throughout the aftermath to find any experts who felt the prosecution medical evidence made sense. Also their reporter who sat in for the duration of the original trial and has changed his view on the safety of the convictions.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/ ... SApp_Other

[Biffer]

The digital nature of the modern world means people want this to be either one thing (murderous nurse) or the other (clinical mismanagement).

I think there's a strong possibility that a murderous nurse would tend towards somewhere clinically mismanaged. So it could very well be both.

[Margin__Walker]

I think the majority of people questioning it just want it to be a transparently safe conviction. Something it really doesn't always feel like.