The Official English Rugby Thread

[Simian]

[TartanBear]

well done England! Now it’s a wee bit more ominous as a Scotland fan…. This has been coming.

[JM2K6]

Unexpected result, but especially so given how genuinely dreadful we were for a big chunk of that game. Well done to the Saints boys, the replacements, and Curry & Earl for seeing that one through with an improved 2nd half.

Astonishing profligacy by the extremely mentally weak French.

[el capitan]

Proper banter win. Total cripple fight from both teams, France should have been out of sight in the first hour, and you could see that coming

Tbf whilst there was still a ton of shit in that last quarter... There was some intent and phases of play towards the end. And the bench seemed to bring something for once.

5 more years for Scabbers.

[Oxbow]

So, when Furbank is fit, Marcus Smith to the bench then?

[sockwithaticket]

The answer seems to be 'put more Saints in the backline', so DIngwall to 12 next game.

Genuinely a bit stunned that we pulled that off and with four good tries too. Still an awful lot to work on (lineout!), but stopping the rot with the losses should be a massive boost for the team.

[Kawazaki]

So, when Furbank is fit, Marcus Smith to the bench then?

Only if Daly is injured.

[JM2K6]

So, when Furbank is fit, Marcus Smith to the bench then?

I think everyone would rather we play with a proper fullback and a 10 on the bench.

Now that we've won and I can't be accused of being unfair... Fin's first half was the sort of thing that would've seen pages of scorn aimed at Marcus. Charged down straight off, multiple dreadful kicks from hand, a few fumbles, and let Dupont get away from him when that pass was grounded which led to their opening try. Fair play to him for admitting it in the interview!

Second half? Far more like the actual Fin Smith. Pin point cross kick for Freeman, the usual smooth passing, nailed his kicks and made his tackles. Couple of aimless kicks aside, a complete turnaround.

Is that enough to be nailed on? Had some of the best players in the world not inexplicably blown 3-4 tries with simple errors, we could've been out of the game at half time...

Definitely think he should start against Scotland. Would be terrible man management to do anything else, but regardless I don't think Borthwick will change a winning team.

[TartanBear]

So, when Furbank is fit, Marcus Smith to the bench then?

I think everyone would rather we play with a proper fullback and a 10 on the bench.

Now that we've won and I can't be accused of being unfair... Fin's first half was the sort of thing that would've seen pages of scorn aimed at Marcus. Charged down straight off, multiple dreadful kicks from hand, a few fumbles, and let Dupont get away from him when that pass was grounded which led to their opening try. Fair play to him for admitting it in the interview!

Second half? Far more like the actual Fin Smith. Pin point cross kick for Freeman, the usual smooth passing, nailed his kicks and made his tackles. Couple of aimless kicks aside, a complete turnaround.

Is that enough to be nailed on? Had some of the best players in the world not inexplicably blown 3-4 tries with simple errors, we could've been out of the game at half time...

Definitely think he should start against Scotland. Would be terrible man management to do anything else, but regardless I don't think Borthwick will change a winning team.

No dog in this fight. Fin is your man. Not quite the magician as is Marcus, but he will help England win. He’ll also develop as his confidence increases wearing the starting jersey and if the Saints backs continue on form and being selected, it looks good for England.

[JM2K6]

So, when Furbank is fit, Marcus Smith to the bench then?

I think everyone would rather we play with a proper fullback and a 10 on the bench.

Now that we've won and I can't be accused of being unfair... Fin's first half was the sort of thing that would've seen pages of scorn aimed at Marcus. Charged down straight off, multiple dreadful kicks from hand, a few fumbles, and let Dupont get away from him when that pass was grounded which led to their opening try. Fair play to him for admitting it in the interview!

Second half? Far more like the actual Fin Smith. Pin point cross kick for Freeman, the usual smooth passing, nailed his kicks and made his tackles. Couple of aimless kicks aside, a complete turnaround.

Is that enough to be nailed on? Had some of the best players in the world not inexplicably blown 3-4 tries with simple errors, we could've been out of the game at half time...

Definitely think he should start against Scotland. Would be terrible man management to do anything else, but regardless I don't think Borthwick will change a winning team.

No dog in this fight. Fin is your man. Not quite the magician as is Marcus, but he will help England win. He’ll also develop as his confidence increases wearing the starting jersey and if the Saints backs continue on form and being selected, it looks good for England.

He certainly has the talent and should be given the opportunity to prove it (as should've happened before now against weaker opposition, but Borthwick is a coward). Just seems a little premature given his first half to claim he's the long term option without any caveats.

Beating the French gets you a lot of credit in the bank though

[Raggs]

Whilst Furbank is broken, I'd stick with Smith at 15. He did well. France tend to kick long rather than competing, but he did well. They definitely then link up well.

Players need to trust the inside man a bit more, especially if it's Lawrence, he's unlikely to get done for pace.

Baxter came on with a bang too.

[JM2K6]

Whilst Furbank is broken, I'd stick with Smith at 15. He did well. France tend to kick long rather than competing, but he did well. They definitely then link up well.

Players need to trust the inside man a bit more, especially if it's Lawrence, he's unlikely to get done for pace.

Baxter came on with a bang too.

Hendy or Carpenter need some game time this 6N, though.

[Paddington Bear]

Fin Smith was excellent in the second half and adjusted fast to test rugby. He plays close to the line and brings along the backline with him. He’s earned a chance to run this side for a run of games.

Marcus Smith was brave but really poor. He’s not a 15 so he shouldn’t take all the blame but he also kicked poorly which is inexcusable.

[lemonhead]

Fin Smith was excellent in the second half and adjusted fast to test rugby. He plays close to the line and brings along the backline with him. He’s earned a chance to run this side for a run of games.

Marcus Smith was brave but really poor. He’s not a 15 so he shouldn’t take all the blame but he also kicked poorly which is inexcusable.

Unhelpful but from outside, you did well with both on field and Smith the Steadier at 10.

Had Smith the Unquiet not been around I don't think there's enough batshit freneticism to put the wind up France. Mistakes aplenty, shouldn't have had the tee so long (and really feared ye lads had shat the bed on 66mins) but otherwise both were assets.

[Kawazaki]

Fin Smith was excellent in the second half and adjusted fast to test rugby. He plays close to the line and brings along the backline with him. He’s earned a chance to run this side for a run of games.

Marcus Smith was brave but really poor. He’s not a 15 so he shouldn’t take all the blame but he also kicked poorly which is inexcusable.

Fin at 10 gave England much needed shape and direction. He looks a far more natural 10. Marcus is a very skilled rugby player but he's not a leader or smart tactician, he creates personal moments but he doesn't make those around him better players. A pity but he's reached his ceiling.

I'm glad Daly showed what a proper 15 can do at the end, hopefully it spells the end for Steward who simply isn't a test standard 15.

[Oxbow]

Daly came on for Slade didn't he?

[sockwithaticket]

Daly came on for Slade didn't he?

Yeah, which I assume means we went with 12. Lawrence 13. Freeman 14. Daly for his time on the pitch.

[JM2K6]

Daly came on for Slade didn't he?

Yeah, which I assume means we went with 12. Lawrence 13. Freeman 14. Daly for his time on the pitch.

I assumed he went to 13

[Paddington Bear]

Daly clearly has his issues but my goodness that was an excellent line and exactly what we’ve been crying out for from an experienced player off the bench. Adding a winner today to his one in Cardiff 2017 places him into English rugby lore in a way I am deeply happy about

[tc27]

Daly clearly has his issues but my goodness that was an excellent line and exactly what we’ve been crying out for from an experienced player off the bench. Adding a winner today to his one in Cardiff 2017 places him into English rugby lore in a way I am deeply happy about

Yeah really enjoyed how well timed his transfer from keeping the blindside defence honest to being a runner off Smiths shoulder was.

[Ovals]

Daly came on for Slade didn't he?

Yeah, which I assume means we went with 12. Lawrence 13. Freeman 14. Daly for his time on the pitch.

I assumed he went to 13

Daly came on, on the left Wing - that's where he was stationed in the lead up to his try. I think Freeman moved into the centre.

[JM2K6]

Yeah, which I assume means we went with 12. Lawrence 13. Freeman 14. Daly for his time on the pitch.

I assumed he went to 13

Daly came on, on the left Wing - that's where he was stationed in the lead up to his try. I think Freeman moved into the centre.

Cheers

[Deveron Boy]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

[Kawazaki]

Daly clearly has his issues but my goodness that was an excellent line and exactly what we’ve been crying out for from an experienced player off the bench. Adding a winner today to his one in Cardiff 2017 places him into English rugby lore in a way I am deeply happy about

Yep. Daly's maligned by people who don't know a proper player when they see one. Pleased he showed his class today to sit the haters down.

[Kawazaki]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

He's too strong in his criticism but his instincts on MS are proving correct.

[Paddington Bear]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

[Kawazaki]

Blimey, even Marcus Smith's second biggest fanboy reckons Fin has usurped him now...

Fin settles the Smith fly half debate after 15 ice-cold minutes

Fin Smith teed up Tommy Freeman brilliantly to score, played the pass for Elliot Daly’s late try and kicked the winning points; he may have won the battle for the England No10 shirt

https://archive.ph/f15J7

[Slick]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

[dpedin]

Looks like Finn not Marcus as the Smith at 10 going forward? He brought a shape and structure to the English play that Marcus has struggled to bring. He wasnt perfect but looked far more composed there. Not sure Marcus was all that tidy at 15 either, he looked a bit exposed at times with his positioning, etc. Although a better option that Steward there must be other EQ 15s that can be given slot and gain experience? Marcus is now an impact 10/15 off the bench?

If the French hadn't washed their hands in baby oil before the game then we might be having a slightly different discussion, they should have been 20-30 points ahead at half time, however thems the breaks!

[Kawazaki]

Looks like Finn not Marcus as the Smith at 10 going forward? He brought a shape and structure to the English play that Marcus has struggled to bring. He wasnt perfect but looked far more composed there. Not sure Marcus was all that tidy at 15 either, he looked a bit exposed at times with his positioning, etc. Although a better option that Steward there must be other EQ 15s that can be given slot and gain experience? Marcus is now an impact 10/15 off the bench?

If the French hadn't washed their hands in baby oil before the game then we might be having a slightly different discussion, they should have been 20-30 points ahead at half time, however thems the breaks!

Marcus Smith is a very good rugby player, definitely test quality, but he tends to create Marcus Smith moments rather than connected team moments and that's always been the problem because he plays at Flyhalf. He's a much much better fullback than Freddie Steward is though so, if only for that reason alone, he should learn more fullback ploys and stay in the England squad. The trouble is, Elliot Daly is a much better 23 than Marcus is and, if we're being honest, Daly is a better 15 as well - as are, perhaps, 1 or 2 other players not even in the England squad.

[sockwithaticket]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

The difference a narrow win makes. If that game had been yet another close loss his performance would be under a lot more scrutiny.

As it is, English rugby's obsession with the 10 shirt and the euphoria of managing to beat tier 1 opposition mean he's now the second coming of Christ.

[Ovals]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

I really like Finn Smith - but his performance yesterday wasn't that great - he was pretty anonymous for 50/60 minutes before getting it together for the final 20mins or so. How he was awarded PotM, ahead of Curry, was truly odd.

He's got a decent opportunity to nail the position down with the next 3 games against opposition we have a good chance of beating. But, knowing how fickle the supporters and media are, I doubt it will be long before one indifferent performance will see this latest bubble burst. If we lose to the Scots, everyone will forget the golden 20 mins he had in this game.

[Kawazaki]

I'll tell you an England player who is getting on my radar - for all the wrong reasons - Ollie Lawrence. He's a media darling and forum favourite but his workrate is actually quite poor, particularly in defence.

[inactionman]

I'm happy he had it in him - as did the squad - to keep going and actually have a very strong closing 15-20 minutes.

I take it as a positive. We can work on consistency later, especially now he's had his self-admitted rabbit in the headlights moment.

[SaintK]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

I've just read it as well. Very mean spirited and personal. He just loves being a contrary twat, probably doesn't like the floppy hair and hitch-kicck!!
He's been writing for The Times since the mid 70's and it's about time he was put out to pasture and while they're at it they can also get rid of Barnes and Dallaglio as columnists
I would only have given M Smith a 6 rating at the very most and F Smith a 7 though I thought he played very well for the whole of the second half not just the last 10/15 minutes. Still, 2 good young fly halves fighting it out for the 10 shirt can't be a bad thing.

[JM2K6]

I haven't seen many players turn around a really poor first half on starting debut like that so 7 for Fin seems unfair. Marcus chewed off a lot of metres and had an okay first half but made far too many errors, even before you get to his off day with the boot. You'd be hard pressed to give more than 5/10.

Don't think him wanting to go for the corner - something he always wants to do - is a sign of him not fancying the kick, though! Also not sure Daly's wing cameo has much to do with anything - if Fin starts, Marcus is either 15 or bench as we're not going to play without a backup 10.


Aside from the Smiths, Earl looked happier at 7 but missed a huge amount of tackles, Curry was obviously huge at 6 and his brother had a big impact. England did not use Willis well at all, he was basically a tackle bot and carried much less often than you'd expect. He looked strong but his entire USP is massive weight of carrying, and hopefully England can bring him into the game more in future.

LCD was not good, George was a big upgrade. Baxter obviously did pretty great, Genge less so, but for once the scrums were a complete sideshow.

Slade is getting big props from the media but I only really remember his errors, missed tackles, and the lack of trust his teammates have in his ability on the drift. Lawrence was quiet but you gotta love that hand off and I think he will be one of the big beneficiaries of the Fin Era, because I think he's happier getting an outside arc rather than a short ball and Fin is more naturally a longer passer.

Freeman had some big errors in defence early on but he really started to make inroads with ball in hand, his try was brilliantly taken, and we finally saw what he can do when he gets involved (and why he's so effective as a 13, too). Sleightholme looked a bit out of sorts in attack and defence.

The big worry for me is that the result is excellent, the second half performance promising, but we needed what looks like divine intervention to not be 20 points down at half time. That was an extremely shaky first half and we looked genuinely incompetent across the board. If we play half as badly as that against Scotland, they'll be out of sight.

[Brazil]

I'm surprised that Jones hasn't had the Spanish archer before for his comments about kiwi poaching. He's been trying to be the Clarkson of rugby for a while, and is a dislikeable mean spirited cunt. His vendetta against quins is extremely unprofessional, and his incessant bullying of smith extremely unpleasant. Unfortunately he's "the voice of rugby", and the sort of person parotted by Barbour jacketed twats across the country, though from the BTL comments on the times it would appear people have cottoned on to just what a spoofer he really is.

[sockwithaticket]

Comments and clicks are engagement, engagement is currency.

If people stopped reading his bilge they might sack him.

[Oxbow]

Re: Sleightholme, he didn't have a great game but he's been out injured since December and that was his first game back. Hopefully he'll be more up to speed against against Scotland.

[JM2K6]

Re: Sleightholme, he didn't have a great game but he's been out injured since December and that was his first game back. Hopefully he'll be more up to speed against against Scotland.

Yeah. I do want Roebuck to get a proper chance, though. I guess he'll just have to be patient.

The 6/2 bench really limits us and we can't really live without it at the moment. I'm really pleased that the bench did a great job but I was half hoping for us to be forced into a Ted Hill pick as someone who could cover multiple positions and be a real lineout threat. 6/2 also makes it harder to not pick Marcus at 15, and we'd all rather see a proper 15 like Carpenter or Hendy given a real opportunity with Marcus on the bench as the backup 10 or late game cover for 15. The Murley Meltdown really exposed the lack of flexibility.

Slade seems nailed on for the foreseeable, which is hugely frustrating, as we absolutely need to be looking at alternatives like Loz or Atkinson in a live match.