The Official English Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

Ford's had a rotten 18 months in terms of injuries, his lack of game time plus being rushed back to England squads while not match fit has certainly impacted his form and the two Smiths are currently justifiably ahead of him in the pecking order. However, the two younger men are not immune to the threat of injury themselves and even if they stay fit, should Ford can put together a decent run of games there's no reason he can't get back to his best and establish himself as England's first choice again. He's 32 in a few days time, not 40. Far too soon to be writing him off, especially in a position like fly half, so there's definitely no need to be putting him on the bench for this fixture and potentially pad out his cap total.

[Kawazaki]

This is the England national team and the 6 Nations championship ffs. You don't use it to toss out caps to hit a quota number because a player is a nice bloke or near to 100 caps.

[Hal Jordan]

This is the England national team and the 6 Nations championship ffs. You don't use it to toss out caps to hit a quota number because a player is a nice bloke or near to 100 caps.

Some people (not me) would say it's just a testing ground for the World Cup campaigns, so who cares?

They are, of course, wrong.

[Ovals]

It's really quite difficult to see what this selection logic is supposed to be.

Scenario 1.
M. Smith gets injured then Daly will move to 15, but then who goes to the wing?

If Freeman moves there then who plays 13?

Scenario 2.
Dingwall gets injured then who plays 12? Does Earl go there and Willis comes on?

Scenario 3.
Itoji or Chessum gets injured then who goes in to play lock?

There's many more scenarios that throw up more potential problems than simply don't exist with a different bench.

Having no cover for 11-15 or for 4/5 - is completely unhinged. It's impossible to rationalise the selection of Ford on the bench with two FHs in the starting XV. We'll probably still win, but it be no thanks to Borther's insane selections.

[Hal Jordan]

It's Dimwit levels of positional selection.

[ASMO]

England U20's playing utterly shit, Wales deservedly winning.

[Lady P]

England U20's playing utterly shit, Wales deservedly winning.

Absolute car crash

[Brazil]

This ref is fucking shocking. We've blown it, but his decisions in the last seven minutes suggest bias

[Brazil]

You cheating saffa cunt

[petej]

This ref is fucking shocking. We've blown it, but his decisions in the last seven minutes suggest bias

This ref is shit. He is crap owes England about 5 minutes, a card and at least 7 points.

[Lady P]

Taff kids getting very chopsy about winning one game.

[sockwithaticket]

I was a little bit annoyed at having to miss the game tonight, sounds like it was actually for the best.

[tc27]

Agree the ref was appalling.

Felt England were incredibly one dimensional though. Getting one of the big uns to run hard at the 10-13 channel didn't work. Wales knew exactly what was coming and flooded the contact area with tacklers. There was no attempt to attack the fringes or out a kick in behind and keep the defense guessing.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

terrific prep to play for England. if plan A isn't working do plan A harder, but sprinkle with some needless errors, ideally give some soft pens away into the bargain

[Hal Jordan]

terrific prep to play for England. if plan A isn't working do plan A harder, but sprinkle with some needless errors, ideally give some soft pens away into the bargain

I hope they were stupid penalties rather than soft, or they'll never grace that Twickenham turf with the big boys

[Rhubarb & Custard]

thing is you can look at the eventual winners this season, France, and concede those wanting to pick big beasts who put in a shift have a point that such can dominate more skilled approaches

[Paddington Bear]

That’s a good reminder, if anyone needed one before tomorrow, of why every England side has to respect a trip to Wales. The mini Welsh showed superb character and defended like Trojans, it felt like so many England Wales games where we have failed to find a plan B.

Ref was utterly appalling, it cost Wales a few sides but was comical against England at the end. Reverse a penalty against England for trying to get the ball off Wales then don’t do anything when Wales start a scrap the play afterward. Was embarrassing to watch.

[geordie_6]

Agree the ref was appalling.

Felt England were incredibly one dimensional though. Getting one of the big uns to run hard at the 10-13 channel didn't work. Wales knew exactly what was coming and flooded the contact area with tacklers. There was no attempt to attack the fringes or out a kick in behind and keep the defense guessing.

Really bizarre given that they were far more varied against Scotland.

[Lobby]

That’s a good reminder, if anyone needed one before tomorrow, of why every England side has to respect a trip to Wales. The mini Welsh showed superb character and defended like Trojans, it felt like so many England Wales games where we have failed to find a plan B.

Ref was utterly appalling, it cost Wales a few sides but was comical against England at the end. Reverse a penalty against England for trying to get the ball off Wales then don’t do anything when Wales start a scrap the play afterward. Was embarrassing to watch.

I particularly enjoyed the ref demanding that England retake their line out for no discernible reason with 4 minutes to go, and then spent another 90 seconds chatting to the Welsh captain without stopping the clock before allowing the game to continue. Even the Welsh commentators thought that was mad.

The Welsh performance was a carbon copy of their game against the Irish where they just defended like mad and won the game off the back of a mixture of Irish errors and stupidity in continually repeating a game plan that patently wasn't working.

[SaintK]

That’s a good reminder, if anyone needed one before tomorrow, of why every England side has to respect a trip to Wales. The mini Welsh showed superb character and defended like Trojans, it felt like so many England Wales games where we have failed to find a plan B.

Ref was utterly appalling, it cost Wales a few sides but was comical against England at the end. Reverse a penalty against England for trying to get the ball off Wales then don’t do anything when Wales start a scrap the play afterward. Was embarrassing to watch.

I particularly enjoyed the ref demanding that England retake their line out for no discernible reason with 4 minutes to go, and then spent another 90 seconds chatting to the Welsh captain without stopping the clock before allowing the game to continue. Even the Welsh commentators thought that was mad.

The Welsh performance was a carbon copy of their game against the Irish where they just defended like mad and won the game off the back of a mixture of Irish errors and stupidity in continually repeating a game plan that patently wasn't working.

Recckon that was one of the all time worst ref performances I've seen at that level. appalling!!!!
Not that England deserved to win having committed 14 unforced errors including 3 that were over the Welsh try line!!!!

[Lobby]

That’s a good reminder, if anyone needed one before tomorrow, of why every England side has to respect a trip to Wales. The mini Welsh showed superb character and defended like Trojans, it felt like so many England Wales games where we have failed to find a plan B.

Ref was utterly appalling, it cost Wales a few sides but was comical against England at the end. Reverse a penalty against England for trying to get the ball off Wales then don’t do anything when Wales start a scrap the play afterward. Was embarrassing to watch.

I particularly enjoyed the ref demanding that England retake their line out for no discernible reason with 4 minutes to go, and then spent another 90 seconds chatting to the Welsh captain without stopping the clock before allowing the game to continue. Even the Welsh commentators thought that was mad.

The Welsh performance was a carbon copy of their game against the Irish where they just defended like mad and won the game off the back of a mixture of Irish errors and stupidity in continually repeating a game plan that patently wasn't working.

Recckon that was one of the all time worst ref performances I've seen at that level. appalling!!!!
Not that England deserved to win having committed 14 unforced errors including 3 that were over the Welsh try line!!!!

Agreed, totally incompetent.

Oh and pace Paddington, the ref did do something when the Welsh started a scrap in the play immediately after the reversed penalty. He sent an English player to the bin.

[Paddington Bear]

I particularly enjoyed the ref demanding that England retake their line out for no discernible reason with 4 minutes to go, and then spent another 90 seconds chatting to the Welsh captain without stopping the clock before allowing the game to continue. Even the Welsh commentators thought that was mad.

The Welsh performance was a carbon copy of their game against the Irish where they just defended like mad and won the game off the back of a mixture of Irish errors and stupidity in continually repeating a game plan that patently wasn't working.

Recckon that was one of the all time worst ref performances I've seen at that level. appalling!!!!
Not that England deserved to win having committed 14 unforced errors including 3 that were over the Welsh try line!!!!

Agreed, totally incompetent.

Oh and pace Paddington, the ref did do something when the Welsh started a scrap in the play immediately after the reversed penalty. He sent an English player to the bin.

Mea culpa

[petej]

terrific prep to play for England. if plan A isn't working do plan A harder, but sprinkle with some needless errors, ideally give some soft pens away into the bargain

This is the way of England rugby. Stop playing with any variation/creativity and pointlessly bosh away

tenor.gif (700.72 KiB) Viewed 4748 times

[tc27]

That’s a good reminder, if anyone needed one before tomorrow, of why every England side has to respect a trip to Wales. The mini Welsh showed superb character and defended like Trojans, it felt like so many England Wales games where we have failed to find a plan B.

Ref was utterly appalling, it cost Wales a few sides but was comical against England at the end. Reverse a penalty against England for trying to get the ball off Wales then don’t do anything when Wales start a scrap the play afterward. Was embarrassing to watch.

It's very likely this England side would lose today if going for a slam or a realistic shot at the championship.

[sockwithaticket]

That was satisfying.

Still not convinced by Borthwick's selections. Not sure you get away with the 2 locks, 6 back rows and 3 fly halves against a better team.

George Ford is still absolute quality when he's fit and in form.

Same as last year, we finished the tournament stronger than we started it and that came alongside opening up the style of play. We need our gameplan to play more to the strengths of the players we have.

[Oxbow]

Amidst all the tries Dingwall was unflashily effective again, solid in defence, distributed well, sometimes from first receiver allowing F Smith to play wider. The continued picking of Slade is looking more and more ridiculous given the other options (not just Dingwall) we had available to try out.

[sockwithaticket]

Amidst all the tries Dingwall was unflashily effective again, solid in defence, distributed well, sometimes from first receiver allowing F Smith to play wider. The continued picking of Slade is looking more and more ridiculous given the other options (not just Dingwall) we had available to try out.

Vigorous agreement. He should never have been dropped during the last 6N and it shouldn't have taken this long to reintroduce him to an obviously misfiring midfield.

[Sinkers]

Andy Foode alluding to there being a bit of a player rebellion prior to the Italy game?

[Paddington Bear]

Andy Foode alluding to there being a bit of a player rebellion prior to the Italy game?

Not sure how seriously you can take his shit stirring tbh

Funny tournament. I think we’d have all bitten the hand off anyone offering us four wins in January. The way we went through the gears in the last two games is very promising in terms of talent, cohesion and coaching.

The back row was absolutely world class all tournament, Itoje and Chessum were very strong in the second row, scrum was quality every week (Stuart much improved). Not sure what we do when George retires.

Backs more of a work in progress. Mitchell played much better when allowed to play his normal game, shockingly, F Smith has settled the debate at fly half for a bit, he’s a real talent and sets up exactly as a test 10 needs to. Hopefully we’ve seen the last of Slade in an England shirt, him being fully binned out of the 23 coincided with our best attacking rugby. Lawrence was excellent until his injury.

There’s a really excellent side to be moulded here, hard to claim that this didn’t represent progress. What might have been if we didn’t fall asleep for 20 minutes in Dublin…

[dpedin]

England were every bit as good as Wales were awful. The power of their pack was at last coupled with pace and movement in the backs. However it was a very, very poor Wales performance for whom even the basics of the game seemed to have evaded them. Hard to judge how good England were in all honesty, but far too good for Wales!

[Sandstorm]

Backs more of a work in progress. Mitchell played much better when allowed to play his normal game, shockingly, F Smith has settled the debate at fly half for a bit, he’s a real talent and sets up exactly as a test 10 needs to.

Yes, both looked good behind a very dominant pack.

[sockwithaticket]

F Smith has settled the debate at fly half for a bit, he’s a real talent and sets up exactly as a test 10 needs to.

Has he? We started the second half pretty poorly and he was yanked off quite early, things picked up massively when Ford came on. The middle of the first half wasn't that impressive either. Not all down to either player, obviously, but a fit and firing Ford is still our best fly half while F. Smith is still very green at this level, so I don't think anything's settled at all.

[sockwithaticket]

England were every bit as good as Wales were awful. The power of their pack was at last coupled with pace and movement in the backs. However it was a very, very poor Wales performance for whom even the basics of the game seemed to have evaded them. Hard to judge how good England were in all honesty, but far too good for Wales!

That's where I am with it. You can only beat what's in front of you and we hammered a poor Wales team, but with a couple of their early close calls having gone a different way, our somewhat fluky head led tries not panning out the Cardiff crowd isn't silenced so early and there's a much different scoreline in the offing. We will also never see our forwards that physically dominant against proper opposition. Wales pack being mince is probably why Cunningham-South moving up to second row for most of the game didn't cost us more in the scrum, but I can't picture getting away with that against Scotland or Argentina, let alone France or South Africa.

So although it's nice to put that many points past Wales on their own patch after many of their party-pooping results down the years, I'm not sure too much can be read into it beyond England look best when we steer clear of the eye-bleeding anti-rugby.

[Paddington Bear]

F Smith has settled the debate at fly half for a bit, he’s a real talent and sets up exactly as a test 10 needs to.

Has he? We started the second half pretty poorly and he was yanked off quite early, things picked up massively when Ford came on. The middle of the first half wasn't that impressive either. Not all down to either player, obviously, but a fit and firing Ford is still our best fly half while F. Smith is still very green at this level, so I don't think anything's settled at all.

He’d led an attack that was 35 points up at half time!

And yes Ford is an excellent player, I think it’s clear Borthwick wants to go with a younger option and that leaves Smith or Smith, and one is better suited to test rugby than the other

[Rhubarb & Custard]

You could easily have said at the end of the autumn internationals Marcus had claimed the 10 shirt. Really we've two good young 10s and an older perhaps still slightly better 10 in Ford. There would be good reasons for picking any of them.

Positives this 6N has been the emergence of Stuart as a good starter, previously he's only looked good off the bench for me. And Heyes has done a job coming off the bench. And the return of one Curry and the emergence of the other.

Lots of questions though, will we turn to Dan as a hooker, who will partner Itoje, will there be a 3rd lock on the bench, what's the backrow balance to be, will Hill get a shot, who's the 10, who're the centres, who are the wingers and who's the 15? Nice to end with two much better performances, maybe next time we'll start a little better

[Paddington Bear]

You could easily have said at the end of the autumn internationals Marcus had claimed the 10 shirt. Really we've two good young 10s and an older perhaps still slightly better 10 in Ford. There would be good reasons for picking any of them.

Positives this 6N has been the emergence of St

The difference of course is that we lost every game of consequence in the Autumn

[Rhubarb & Custard]

You could easily have said at the end of the autumn internationals Marcus had claimed the 10 shirt. Really we've two good young 10s and an older perhaps still slightly better 10 in Ford. There would be good reasons for picking any of them.

Positives this 6N has been the emergence of St

The difference of course is that we lost every game of consequence in the Autumn

We should have lost to France and Scotland this time, and that we didn't was in many ways nothing to do with us unless perhaps Fin Smith was using the force to have all those try scoring chances dropped.

[Paddington Bear]

You could easily have said at the end of the autumn internationals Marcus had claimed the 10 shirt. Really we've two good young 10s and an older perhaps still slightly better 10 in Ford. There would be good reasons for picking any of them.

Positives this 6N has been the emergence of St

The difference of course is that we lost every game of consequence in the Autumn

We should have lost to France and Scotland this time, and that we didn't was in many ways nothing to do with us unless perhaps Fin Smith was using the force to have all those try scoring chances dropped.

Must have imagined us scoring a try bonus point against France and him nailing a kick from the halfway line vs Scotland then!

[sockwithaticket]

F Smith has settled the debate at fly half for a bit, he’s a real talent and sets up exactly as a test 10 needs to.

Has he? We started the second half pretty poorly and he was yanked off quite early, things picked up massively when Ford came on. The middle of the first half wasn't that impressive either. Not all down to either player, obviously, but a fit and firing Ford is still our best fly half while F. Smith is still very green at this level, so I don't think anything's settled at all.

He’d led an attack that was 35 points up at half time!

And yes Ford is an excellent player, I think it’s clear Borthwick wants to go with a younger option and that leaves Smith or Smith, and one is better suited to test rugby than the other

Against the poorest Wales side of my lifetime. It's not nothing, but I don't think it's enough to settle any debate. I like F. Smith, I like the way Northampton play and having him there with so many of his teammates is great for cohesion in attacl, but I think it's still far too early to be declaring him the guy.

The biggest factors as to whether the side go well remain our gameplan and overall team composition. Last year we finished with the two toughest opponents (France and Ireland) rather than the two easiest , the performances in the final '24 games were our best of the tournament because we moved away from the awful anti-rugby we had been trying. Give M. Smith his head, have the team play with some ambition and select a midfield enencumbered by Slade and I'm pretty sure he could guide England to a punishment level score against tier 2 opposition too.

On Ford vs. younger options, Borthwick's mostly been forced into going with either Smith because of Ford's lack of fitness and thus form lately. If Ford stays fit I feel certain he'll go back to first choice with one of the Smith's as understudy.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

The difference of course is that we lost every game of consequence in the Autumn

We should have lost to France and Scotland this time, and that we didn't was in many ways nothing to do with us unless perhaps Fin Smith was using the force to have all those try scoring chances dropped.

Must have imagined us scoring a try bonus point against France and him nailing a kick from the halfway line vs Scotland then!

If you wish to consider that negates all the poor/indifferent play he was party too and makes an indisputable case he must retain the shirt fair enough.

Fwiw I would pick him at 10 next game up, just for me that'd be around trying to build some continuity/progress and not because I think he's wholly claimed the shirt in a manner not seen since Jonny