Lions Squad - Who's In?

[Slick]

He's only in the conversation because behind Russell there's no obvious candidate.

Ford was magnificent when he came on, but he's not managed to play all that much in the last 18 months. and even if he stays fit from now until the Lions tour Sale aren't going to provide many top end games for him to 'prove his worth'. I'd still take him, mind. He's class, all he should have to prove is fitness. Also need to compensate for being bizarrely overlooked for previous tours...

Who would you not take?

I wouldn't be taking any who've put the red 10 shirt on this year. That's easy.

The Irish lads can flip a coin and the loser's out of the running. Neither has made enough of an impression for me to have a strong feeling about them.

Completely agree with this actually

Prendegast had a decent start to the tournament but has been really poor the last couple of games

I thought Ford was superb when he came on today and if I was going to pick a back up to Russell it would be him

[Biffer]

The problem with Itoje in that captains armband is there'd be twenty players in the squad thinking 'I don't respect him'

Who does everyone respect?

It's a short list

Russell
Sheehan
Genge
Tuipolotou

Maybe Ryan

It's a short list to find someone that, on day one of the lions camp, all of them would go 'yeah, top quality player, absolutely good guy'.

The lions captain can't take three weeks convincing people he should be the Captain.

Tuipulotu is supposedly a captain that players easily fall in behind - his lack of recent game time counts against him.

I really like Genge as a player and for me he is the starting loosehead - is he a Lions captain? I'd be happy enough if he takes on that mantle and is successful, but why isn't he England captain or club captain
Sheehan is nailed on starter but again I don't see him as a captain
Russell just needs to play

He has been both to be fair. Club captaincy was only recently taken away and it had as much to do with availability as anything else. Prem clubs have quite a tradition of giving captaincy to a guy who's around all season rather than any stellar internationals they may have.

International captaincy was under Eddie and I can understand Borthwick making a break with that (althoughI feel like he had Genge as captain at Leicester).

In all honesty, there’s so much leadership in any Lions team that a young captain who’s confident in himself is sometimes the best option.

I’d take Genge as Lions captain.

[Tichtheid]

The problem with Itoje in that captains armband is there'd be twenty players in the squad thinking 'I don't respect him'

Who does everyone respect?

It's a short list

Russell
Sheehan
Genge
Tuipolotou

Maybe Ryan

It's a short list to find someone that, on day one of the lions camp, all of them would go 'yeah, top quality player, absolutely good guy'.

The lions captain can't take three weeks convincing people he should be the Captain.

Tuipulotu is supposedly a captain that players easily fall in behind - his lack of recent game time counts against him.

I really like Genge as a player and for me he is the starting loosehead - is he a Lions captain? I'd be happy enough if he takes on that mantle and is successful, but why isn't he England captain or club captain
Sheehan is nailed on starter but again I don't see him as a captain
Russell just needs to play

He has been both to be fair. Club captaincy was only recently taken away and it had as much to do with availability as anything else. Prem clubs have quite a tradition of giving captaincy to a guy who's around all season rather than any stellar internationals they may have.

International captaincy was under Eddie and I can understand Borthwick making a break with that (althoughI feel like he had Genge as captain at Leicester).

I have a memory of Glasgow giving Leicester an absolute shoeing and Genge totally losing the plot - cards on the table, that colours my view of him and if I'm completely outdated in that view then that is all on me.

I really like him as a player, I think/hope he is the starting loosehead, I'll be happily convinced if he is the guy to lead a tour party from four teams and get them to blend into one side with the one purpose.

[Uncle fester]

I think quite a few English forwards have stepped up and put a lot of pressure on the Irish. Possibly even to the extent of pushing Itoje into the captains armband because I'm not sure Doris is still guaranteed his place.

The problem with Itoje in that captains armband is there'd be twenty players in the squad thinking 'I don't respect him'

Who does everyone respect?

It's a short list

Russell
Sheehan
Genge
Tuipolotou

Maybe Ryan

It's a short list to find someone that, on day one of the lions camp, all of them would go 'yeah, top quality player, absolutely good guy'.

The lions captain can't take three weeks convincing people he should be the Captain.

POM

[Paddington Bear]

The idea that Itoje isn’t respected is fairly astonishing.

He’s led England excellently this tournament and to my mind it’s his position to lose. England’s decision making under pressure was a cut above the other home nations all tournament

[dpedin]

After yesterday's matches I fail to see any reason or argument for including a single Welshman in the Lions squad ... apart from trying to get some coverage on SC4? I have no idea why folk still think Williams is a better 9 than White who was excellent for Scotland yesterday.

It is hard to make an argument against any of the Scottish backs being included in the Lions squad, even Jordan who could cover a number of positions if required.

For me the 12 position is the hardest to fill, Tupiulotu was a shoe in before getting inured and hopefully will be fit before the end of the season. If he plays then a strong argument for him being captain. If he isnt fit then next off the rank is Aki who is beginning to look his age, after him then if we are still talking a big carrier then Henshaw? There isnt a Welsh candidate and I am not too sure who from England fits the bill?

Even splits between Ireland, England and Ireland for Lions squad - England mostly forwards, Scotland mostly backs and Irish across the team. We can argue about the names ...

[Paddington Bear]

After yesterday's matches I fail to see any reason or argument for including a single Welshman in the Lions squad ... apart from trying to get some coverage on SC4? I have no idea why folk still think Williams is a better 9 than White who was excellent for Scotland yesterday.

Agree with this. Jac Morgan is getting the Parisse treatment of every pundit lapping him up because there’s nothing else in the team to hype up. He was completely dismantled by England’s back row yesterday, all of whom are better players than him and should be in front of him in the queue for a plane ticket.

Dare I say it… a third tour for Daly?

[Biffer]

After yesterday's matches I fail to see any reason or argument for including a single Welshman in the Lions squad ... apart from trying to get some coverage on SC4? I have no idea why folk still think Williams is a better 9 than White who was excellent for Scotland yesterday.

It is hard to make an argument against any of the Scottish backs being included in the Lions squad, even Jordan who could cover a number of positions if required.

For me the 12 position is the hardest to fill, Tupiulotu was a shoe in before getting inured and hopefully will be fit before the end of the season. If he plays then a strong argument for him being captain. If he isnt fit then next off the rank is Aki who is beginning to look his age, after him then if we are still talking a big carrier then Henshaw? There isnt a Welsh candidate and I am not too sure who from England fits the bill?

Even splits between Ireland, England and Ireland for Lions squad - England mostly forwards, Scotland mostly backs and Irish across the team. We can argue about the names ...

Warburton was trying to push Blair Murray for Lions fullback in commentary yesterday. And he specifically said team, not squad or tour. Utter nonsense obviously, he can’t tackle his way out of a paper bag, got dragged over the line by the England wing from six metres out yesterday. So far behind Kinghorn and Keenan that it’s a laughable idea.

[dpedin]

After yesterday's matches I fail to see any reason or argument for including a single Welshman in the Lions squad ... apart from trying to get some coverage on SC4? I have no idea why folk still think Williams is a better 9 than White who was excellent for Scotland yesterday.

It is hard to make an argument against any of the Scottish backs being included in the Lions squad, even Jordan who could cover a number of positions if required.

For me the 12 position is the hardest to fill, Tupiulotu was a shoe in before getting inured and hopefully will be fit before the end of the season. If he plays then a strong argument for him being captain. If he isnt fit then next off the rank is Aki who is beginning to look his age, after him then if we are still talking a big carrier then Henshaw? There isnt a Welsh candidate and I am not too sure who from England fits the bill?

Even splits between Ireland, England and Ireland for Lions squad - England mostly forwards, Scotland mostly backs and Irish across the team. We can argue about the names ...

Warburton was trying to push Blair Murray for Lions fullback in commentary yesterday. And he specifically said team, not squad or tour. Utter nonsense obviously, he can’t tackle his way out of a paper bag, got dragged over the line by the England wing from six metres out yesterday. So far behind Kinghorn and Keenan that it’s a laughable idea.

Clutching at straws! Murray is a decent runner in the loose but not the safest 15 and cant tackle for toffee but it is easy to shine in a team full of utter shite!

[sockwithaticket]

JMK used to remark upon Warburton's tendency to view everything through a Lions lens and how he seemed to believe Welsh players were shoe-ins. I suppose if you came up in the Gatland era of Lions tours, that was more or less correct.

[Lobby]

After yesterday's matches I fail to see any reason or argument for including a single Welshman in the Lions squad ... apart from trying to get some coverage on SC4? I have no idea why folk still think Williams is a better 9 than White who was excellent for Scotland yesterday.

It is hard to make an argument against any of the Scottish backs being included in the Lions squad, even Jordan who could cover a number of positions if required.

For me the 12 position is the hardest to fill, Tupiulotu was a shoe in before getting inured and hopefully will be fit before the end of the season. If he plays then a strong argument for him being captain. If he isnt fit then next off the rank is Aki who is beginning to look his age, after him then if we are still talking a big carrier then Henshaw? There isnt a Welsh candidate and I am not too sure who from England fits the bill?

Even splits between Ireland, England and Ireland for Lions squad - England mostly forwards, Scotland mostly backs and Irish across the team. We can argue about the names ...

Agree that on merit there isn't a single Welsh player who should get anywhere near the Lions. Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised to see one or maybe two included in the squad for the sake of harmony and including players from all 4 home unions. They'll only be dirt trackers and tackle bag holders and there's no chance they'll get into the test team.

[SaintK]

After yesterday's matches I fail to see any reason or argument for including a single Welshman in the Lions squad ... apart from trying to get some coverage on SC4? I have no idea why folk still think Williams is a better 9 than White who was excellent for Scotland yesterday.

It is hard to make an argument against any of the Scottish backs being included in the Lions squad, even Jordan who could cover a number of positions if required.

For me the 12 position is the hardest to fill, Tupiulotu was a shoe in before getting inured and hopefully will be fit before the end of the season. If he plays then a strong argument for him being captain. If he isnt fit then next off the rank is Aki who is beginning to look his age, after him then if we are still talking a big carrier then Henshaw? There isnt a Welsh candidate and I am not too sure who from England fits the bill?

Even splits between Ireland, England and Ireland for Lions squad - England mostly forwards, Scotland mostly backs and Irish across the team. We can argue about the names ...

Agree that on merit there isn't a single Welsh player who should get anywhere near the Lions. Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised to see one or maybe two included in the squad for the sake of harmony and including players from all 4 home unions. They'll only be dirt trackers and tackle bag holders and there's no chance they'll get into the test team.

Yep. I don't think Farrell will want to be the first Lions coach not to include players from all the home unions

[Uncle fester]

After yesterday's matches I fail to see any reason or argument for including a single Welshman in the Lions squad ... apart from trying to get some coverage on SC4? I have no idea why folk still think Williams is a better 9 than White who was excellent for Scotland yesterday.

It is hard to make an argument against any of the Scottish backs being included in the Lions squad, even Jordan who could cover a number of positions if required.

For me the 12 position is the hardest to fill, Tupiulotu was a shoe in before getting inured and hopefully will be fit before the end of the season. If he plays then a strong argument for him being captain. If he isnt fit then next off the rank is Aki who is beginning to look his age, after him then if we are still talking a big carrier then Henshaw? There isnt a Welsh candidate and I am not too sure who from England fits the bill?

Even splits between Ireland, England and Ireland for Lions squad - England mostly forwards, Scotland mostly backs and Irish across the team. We can argue about the names ...

Just a quick reminder that while Ireland didn't finish the season great, Farrell will be looking at the games between the lions nations and both England and Scotland were well beaten against Ireland.

Farrell Jnr will be one of the 10's I reckon.

[charltom]

After yesterday's matches I fail to see any reason or argument for including a single Welshman in the Lions squad ... apart from trying to get some coverage on SC4? I have no idea why folk still think Williams is a better 9 than White who was excellent for Scotland yesterday.

It is hard to make an argument against any of the Scottish backs being included in the Lions squad, even Jordan who could cover a number of positions if required.

For me the 12 position is the hardest to fill, Tupiulotu was a shoe in before getting inured and hopefully will be fit before the end of the season. If he plays then a strong argument for him being captain. If he isnt fit then next off the rank is Aki who is beginning to look his age, after him then if we are still talking a big carrier then Henshaw? There isnt a Welsh candidate and I am not too sure who from England fits the bill?

Even splits between Ireland, England and Ireland for Lions squad - England mostly forwards, Scotland mostly backs and Irish across the team. We can argue about the names ...

Just a quick reminder that while Ireland didn't finish the season great, Farrell will be looking at the games between the lions nations and both England and Scotland were well beaten against Ireland.

Farrell Jnr will be one of the 10's I reckon.

He may also care about the home nations performed against Australia, making Scotland the dominant party within the squad and Sione T (once recovered) the captain.

[Uncle fester]

After yesterday's matches I fail to see any reason or argument for including a single Welshman in the Lions squad ... apart from trying to get some coverage on SC4? I have no idea why folk still think Williams is a better 9 than White who was excellent for Scotland yesterday.

It is hard to make an argument against any of the Scottish backs being included in the Lions squad, even Jordan who could cover a number of positions if required.

For me the 12 position is the hardest to fill, Tupiulotu was a shoe in before getting inured and hopefully will be fit before the end of the season. If he plays then a strong argument for him being captain. If he isnt fit then next off the rank is Aki who is beginning to look his age, after him then if we are still talking a big carrier then Henshaw? There isnt a Welsh candidate and I am not too sure who from England fits the bill?

Even splits between Ireland, England and Ireland for Lions squad - England mostly forwards, Scotland mostly backs and Irish across the team. We can argue about the names ...

Just a quick reminder that while Ireland didn't finish the season great, Farrell will be looking at the games between the lions nations and both England and Scotland were well beaten against Ireland.

Farrell Jnr will be one of the 10's I reckon.

He may also care about the home nations performed against Australia, making Scotland the dominant party within the squad and Sione T (once recovered) the captain.

Yes, agreed. England would suffer on that count.

[SaintK]

After yesterday's matches I fail to see any reason or argument for including a single Welshman in the Lions squad ... apart from trying to get some coverage on SC4? I have no idea why folk still think Williams is a better 9 than White who was excellent for Scotland yesterday.

It is hard to make an argument against any of the Scottish backs being included in the Lions squad, even Jordan who could cover a number of positions if required.

For me the 12 position is the hardest to fill, Tupiulotu was a shoe in before getting inured and hopefully will be fit before the end of the season. If he plays then a strong argument for him being captain. If he isnt fit then next off the rank is Aki who is beginning to look his age, after him then if we are still talking a big carrier then Henshaw? There isnt a Welsh candidate and I am not too sure who from England fits the bill?

Even splits between Ireland, England and Ireland for Lions squad - England mostly forwards, Scotland mostly backs and Irish across the team. We can argue about the names ...

Just a quick reminder that while Ireland didn't finish the season great, Farrell will be looking at the games between the lions nations and both England and Scotland were well beaten against Ireland.

Farrell Jnr will be one of the 10's I reckon.

He may also care about the home nations performed against Australia, making Scotland the dominant party within the squad and Sione T (once recovered) the captain.

He may also look at which teams and players have improved since then. Whereas Ireland and Scotland have regressed somewhat and England have made considerable strides

[charltom]

Just a quick reminder that while Ireland didn't finish the season great, Farrell will be looking at the games between the lions nations and both England and Scotland were well beaten against Ireland.

Farrell Jnr will be one of the 10's I reckon.

He may also care about the home nations performed against Australia, making Scotland the dominant party within the squad and Sione T (once recovered) the captain.

He may also look at which teams and players have improved since then. Whereas Ireland and Scotland have regressed somewhat and England have made considerable strides

Only against Wales.

[Yr Alban]

Just a quick reminder that while Ireland didn't finish the season great, Farrell will be looking at the games between the lions nations and both England and Scotland were well beaten against Ireland.

Farrell Jnr will be one of the 10's I reckon.

He may also care about the home nations performed against Australia, making Scotland the dominant party within the squad and Sione T (once recovered) the captain.

He may also look at which teams and players have improved since then. Whereas Ireland and Scotland have regressed somewhat and England have made considerable strides

I wouldn’t say Scotland have regressed. We’re standing still. Exciting backs, check. Struggling pack, check. Can’t play for 80 minutes, check. Shit the bed v Ireland, check. Games lost through not taking chances, check. Victories made closer than they should be by switching off for spells in games, check.

That’s pretty much the exact package we’ve provided for several years now. The only difference is that England beat us by a point at home in a game we should probably have won. England were impressive v France, and far more efficient at disposing of a hapless Wales than we were, but I’m not sure whether that constitutes ‘considerable strides’?

[shaggy]

He may also care about the home nations performed against Australia, making Scotland the dominant party within the squad and Sione T (once recovered) the captain.

He may also look at which teams and players have improved since then. Whereas Ireland and Scotland have regressed somewhat and England have made considerable strides

I wouldn’t say Scotland have regressed. We’re standing still. Exciting backs, check. Struggling pack, check. Can’t play for 80 minutes, check. Shit the bed v Ireland, check. Games lost through not taking chances, check. Victories made closer than they should be by switching off for spells in games, check.

That’s pretty much the exact package we’ve provided for several years now. The only difference is that England beat us by a point at home in a game we should probably have won. England were impressive v France, and far more efficient at disposing of a hapless Wales than we were, but I’m not sure whether that constitutes ‘considerable strides’?

Apart from the subtle change from kicking the ball to running with it?

[Slick]

He may also care about the home nations performed against Australia, making Scotland the dominant party within the squad and Sione T (once recovered) the captain.

He may also look at which teams and players have improved since then. Whereas Ireland and Scotland have regressed somewhat and England have made considerable strides

I wouldn’t say Scotland have regressed. We’re standing still. Exciting backs, check. Struggling pack, check. Can’t play for 80 minutes, check. Shit the bed v Ireland, check. Games lost through not taking chances, check. Victories made closer than they should be by switching off for spells in games, check.

That’s pretty much the exact package we’ve provided for several years now. The only difference is that England beat us by a point at home in a game we should probably have won. England were impressive v France, and far more efficient at disposing of a hapless Wales than we were, but I’m not sure whether that constitutes ‘considerable strides’?

I agree, I think some of the new fanfare around England is a bit delusional.

[Slick]

He may also look at which teams and players have improved since then. Whereas Ireland and Scotland have regressed somewhat and England have made considerable strides

I wouldn’t say Scotland have regressed. We’re standing still. Exciting backs, check. Struggling pack, check. Can’t play for 80 minutes, check. Shit the bed v Ireland, check. Games lost through not taking chances, check. Victories made closer than they should be by switching off for spells in games, check.

That’s pretty much the exact package we’ve provided for several years now. The only difference is that England beat us by a point at home in a game we should probably have won. England were impressive v France, and far more efficient at disposing of a hapless Wales than we were, but I’m not sure whether that constitutes ‘considerable strides’?

Apart from the subtle change from kicking the ball to running with it?

Against Italy and Wales

[SaintK]

He may also care about the home nations performed against Australia, making Scotland the dominant party within the squad and Sione T (once recovered) the captain.

He may also look at which teams and players have improved since then. Whereas Ireland and Scotland have regressed somewhat and England have made considerable strides

I wouldn’t say Scotland have regressed. We’re standing still. Exciting backs, check. Struggling pack, check. Can’t play for 80 minutes, check. Shit the bed v Ireland, check. Games lost through not taking chances, check. Victories made closer than they should be by switching off for spells in games, check.

That’s pretty much the exact package we’ve provided for several years now. The only difference is that England beat us by a point at home in a game we should probably have won. England were impressive v France, and far more efficient at disposing of a hapless Wales than we were, but I’m not sure whether that constitutes ‘considerable strides’?

I'll stick with my assertion about England and maaybe give the benefit of the doubt about Scotland though Ireland just don't look the same team as the last couple of years.
England may have been a tad lucky against Scotland and France, but over the past 12 months they would have lost both those matches. In the previous 12 months the only victories England had were aginst Italy, Wales and Japan.

[shaggy]

I wouldn’t say Scotland have regressed. We’re standing still. Exciting backs, check. Struggling pack, check. Can’t play for 80 minutes, check. Shit the bed v Ireland, check. Games lost through not taking chances, check. Victories made closer than they should be by switching off for spells in games, check.

That’s pretty much the exact package we’ve provided for several years now. The only difference is that England beat us by a point at home in a game we should probably have won. England were impressive v France, and far more efficient at disposing of a hapless Wales than we were, but I’m not sure whether that constitutes ‘considerable strides’?

Apart from the subtle change from kicking the ball to running with it?

Against Italy and Wales

How does that invalidate the considerable stride in changing almost completely how the team attacks? The relevance of the opposition is only a fact if you just look at the score and not the nature in how it was achieved.

[SaintK]

In other news it ssounds like Farrell is going to appoint an all Ireland coaching team +David Nucifora. Would certainlt benefit the Irish squad members as they are all familiar with them.

Sources have indicated to Telegraph Sport that Farrell will rely on his tried-and-trusted lieutenants in the Ireland set-up despite their underwhelming finish to the Six Nations Championship.
However, Paul O’Connell may not take up a role as forwards coach for which he was strongly touted. Last year, the former Lions second row declared that he did not feel “ready” to take on the role. Andrew Goodman and John Fogarty appear to be the frontrunners to take on the roles of attack and scrum coach respectively.

https://archive.ph/H6bqw#selection-4387.0-4395.319

[Paddington Bear]

He may also look at which teams and players have improved since then. Whereas Ireland and Scotland have regressed somewhat and England have made considerable strides

I wouldn’t say Scotland have regressed. We’re standing still. Exciting backs, check. Struggling pack, check. Can’t play for 80 minutes, check. Shit the bed v Ireland, check. Games lost through not taking chances, check. Victories made closer than they should be by switching off for spells in games, check.

That’s pretty much the exact package we’ve provided for several years now. The only difference is that England beat us by a point at home in a game we should probably have won. England were impressive v France, and far more efficient at disposing of a hapless Wales than we were, but I’m not sure whether that constitutes ‘considerable strides’?

I'll stick with my assertion about England and maaybe give the benefit of the doubt about Scotland though Ireland just don't look the same team as the last couple of years.
England may have been a tad lucky against Scotland and France, but over the past 12 months they would have lost both those matches. In the previous 12 months the only victories England had were aginst Italy, Wales and Japan.

I don’t think you can fairly analyse England’s 6N without addressing how impressive our pack was throughout. 12 months ago we were all discussing how serious our issue was up front unless and until some of the under 20s proved to be bolters. Then suddenly Stuart appears playing at Lions level.

I started to grasp it at the France game where at an early scrum I was yelling for us to stop dicking about and just get it out before we ship a penalty, only to realise we were going forward.

Itoje Chessum and Martin are three excellent second rows (Maro looks back towards his best), the back row was phenomenal throughout and well covered before.

So basically with England you have to judge them on more than just backs moves, albeit we pulled off a fair few of those and not just against Wales and Italy

[Rhubarb & Custard]

One of the actual interesting things about the Lions for those of us who think it's an anachronistic jamboree that too heavily impacts our nation is what IP is gleaned that can be brought back to various squads post the Lions? I'm not actually sure if an all/majority Irish coaching team means they'll be the ones handing info to players from Scotland, Wales and England or if actually it avoids Farrell sharing data/IP with coaches from other nations which might be the more impactful part

[Slick]

Apart from the subtle change from kicking the ball to running with it?

Against Italy and Wales

How does that invalidate the considerable stride in changing almost completely how the team attacks? The relevance of the opposition is only a fact if you just look at the score and not the nature in how it was achieved.

They were boo'd at Twickenham in round 3 for making everyone's eyes bleed and then threw it around a bit against the 2 weakest teams, it's a bit much to claim it changed completely how the team attacks.

[Ovals]

Against Italy and Wales

How does that invalidate the considerable stride in changing almost completely how the team attacks? The relevance of the opposition is only a fact if you just look at the score and not the nature in how it was achieved.

They were boo'd at Twickenham in round 3 for making everyone's eyes bleed and then threw it around a bit against the 2 weakest teams, it's a bit much to claim it changed completely how the team attacks.

Whilst that is true - and we certainly shouldn't get carried away - last year we would have stuck to a conservative game plan and won the games by just a score or two. It is definitely progress to see them using the forward domination to release the backs and keep the ball in hand more. And to see a bit more 'joined up' play where the backs and forwards combine together in attack.

[Paddington Bear]

How does that invalidate the considerable stride in changing almost completely how the team attacks? The relevance of the opposition is only a fact if you just look at the score and not the nature in how it was achieved.

They were boo'd at Twickenham in round 3 for making everyone's eyes bleed and then threw it around a bit against the 2 weakest teams, it's a bit much to claim it changed completely how the team attacks.

Whilst that is true - and we certainly shouldn't get carried away - last year we would have stuck to a conservative game plan and won the games by just a score or two. It is definitely progress to see them using the forward domination to release the backs and keep the ball in hand more. And to see a bit more 'joined up' play where the backs and forwards combine together in attack.

We also scored 7 tries in the first two rounds! The suggestion that England’s default is anti rugby is IMO out of time, it wasn’t how we finished the 2024 6N, how we played in NZ or the Autumn, and Scotland this time was the exception rather than the rule

[Slick]

How does that invalidate the considerable stride in changing almost completely how the team attacks? The relevance of the opposition is only a fact if you just look at the score and not the nature in how it was achieved.

They were boo'd at Twickenham in round 3 for making everyone's eyes bleed and then threw it around a bit against the 2 weakest teams, it's a bit much to claim it changed completely how the team attacks.

Whilst that is true - and we certainly shouldn't get carried away - last year we would have stuck to a conservative game plan and won the games by just a score or two. It is definitely progress to see them using the forward domination to release the backs and keep the ball in hand more. And to see a bit more 'joined up' play where the backs and forwards combine together in attack.

Yup, that's fair enough. Don't get me wrong, I think England have improved, but I don't think it's a big a leap as some seem to be suggesting. PB has been deranged all 6N.

[shaggy]

Against Italy and Wales

How does that invalidate the considerable stride in changing almost completely how the team attacks? The relevance of the opposition is only a fact if you just look at the score and not the nature in how it was achieved.

They were boo'd at Twickenham in round 3 for making everyone's eyes bleed and then threw it around a bit against the 2 weakest teams, it's a bit much to claim it changed completely how the team attacks.

A very lazy analysis.

[charltom]

Let's give England some credit. While Slick is right, Borthwick did one thing that helped contribute to the improved performance in the last two matches: he picked more Saints backs, allowing England to leverage Saints' coaching.

[Sandstorm]

Let's give England some credit. While Slick is right, Borthwick did one thing that helped contribute to the improved performance in the last two matches: he picked more Saints backs, allowing England to leverage Saints' coaching.

Bin Slade, play attractive Rugby. Even neutral were calling for this to happen.

[SaintK]

Let's give England some credit. While Slick is right, Borthwick did one thing that helped contribute to the improved performance in the last two matches: he picked more Saints backs, allowing England to leverage Saints' coaching.

He bought Dingwall into the squad that already contained the other Saints backs. He actually dropped one for the Wales match.
Whilst I agree that Saints backs are coached very well for a particular style of play it quite often doesn't work due to the lack of power in the Saints forwards hence their current league position this season.
Credit to Borthwick and Wigglesworth for finally putting together the right selection in the backs with a very powerful set of forwards and the right game plan to make it work.

[Ovals]

Let's give England some credit. While Slick is right, Borthwick did one thing that helped contribute to the improved performance in the last two matches: he picked more Saints backs, allowing England to leverage Saints' coaching.

He bought Dingwall into the squad that already contained the other Saints backs. He actually dropped one for the Wales match.
Whilst I agree that Saints backs are coached very well for a particular style of play it quite often doesn't work due to the lack of power in the Saints forwards hence their current league position this season.
Credit to Borthwick and Wigglesworth for finally putting together the right selection in the backs with a very powerful set of forwards and the right game plan to make it work.

He's actually brought in, and, or, established, some 'newish' or younger players. Willis, Roebuck, F Smith, Dingwall, CCS, Pollock, Sleightholme. and even tried Freeman at 13 ! So the squad has developed quite a bit this year. Shame he still persists with JVP though.
It seems to take him a while to make the changes but perhaps that's just a case of wanting consistency and not adding too many variables - so it can been seen what works best.

[Slick]

Let's give England some credit. While Slick is right, Borthwick did one thing that helped contribute to the improved performance in the last two matches: he picked more Saints backs, allowing England to leverage Saints' coaching.

He bought Dingwall into the squad that already contained the other Saints backs. He actually dropped one for the Wales match.
Whilst I agree that Saints backs are coached very well for a particular style of play it quite often doesn't work due to the lack of power in the Saints forwards hence their current league position this season.
Credit to Borthwick and Wigglesworth for finally putting together the right selection in the backs with a very powerful set of forwards and the right game plan to make it work.

Genuine question, do you think Freeman at 13 is a realistic option going forward? I have no idea.

I think talking about Earl and some other forward covering the centres is fucking mad.

[Slick]

Let's give England some credit. While Slick is right, Borthwick did one thing that helped contribute to the improved performance in the last two matches: he picked more Saints backs, allowing England to leverage Saints' coaching.

He bought Dingwall into the squad that already contained the other Saints backs. He actually dropped one for the Wales match.
Whilst I agree that Saints backs are coached very well for a particular style of play it quite often doesn't work due to the lack of power in the Saints forwards hence their current league position this season.
Credit to Borthwick and Wigglesworth for finally putting together the right selection in the backs with a very powerful set of forwards and the right game plan to make it work.

He's actually brought in, and, or, established, some 'newish' or younger players. Willis, Roebuck, F Smith, Dingwall, CCS, Pollock, Sleightholme. and even tried Freeman at 13 ! So the squad has developed quite a bit this year. Shame he still persists with JVP though.
It seems to take him a while to make the changes but perhaps that's just a case of wanting consistency and not adding too many variables - so it can been seen what works best.

This is also a fair point. Eddie really fucked England up and Borthwick does seem to be eventually steadying things and bringing in some new names. I can remember saying a few months back that the England team just seemed to be the same names stretching back a long time and it was those same players who were not performing, but he seems to have got the likes of Genge, Itoje, Curry back on form whilst bringing in the new guys.

I know it's never fast enough for us supporters, but I do think he inherited a hell of a mess and international rugby is no place for rapid transformation

[SaintK]

Let's give England some credit. While Slick is right, Borthwick did one thing that helped contribute to the improved performance in the last two matches: he picked more Saints backs, allowing England to leverage Saints' coaching.

He bought Dingwall into the squad that already contained the other Saints backs. He actually dropped one for the Wales match.
Whilst I agree that Saints backs are coached very well for a particular style of play it quite often doesn't work due to the lack of power in the Saints forwards hence their current league position this season.
Credit to Borthwick and Wigglesworth for finally putting together the right selection in the backs with a very powerful set of forwards and the right game plan to make it work.

Genuine question, do you think Freeman at 13 is a realistic option going forward? I have no idea.

I think talking about Earl and some other forward covering the centres is fucking mad.

Yes I think Freeman is a realistic option though I guess it will depend on how much game time ge gets there with Saints
Earl is probably the only backrow that could do it for England, though I'm not sure I'd want to see it against one of the top 6 sides other than maybe covering a 10 minute yellow card. I'd hate it if Borthwick starts making selections based on that happening as a tactical switch

[Ovals]

He bought Dingwall into the squad that already contained the other Saints backs. He actually dropped one for the Wales match.
Whilst I agree that Saints backs are coached very well for a particular style of play it quite often doesn't work due to the lack of power in the Saints forwards hence their current league position this season.
Credit to Borthwick and Wigglesworth for finally putting together the right selection in the backs with a very powerful set of forwards and the right game plan to make it work.

Genuine question, do you think Freeman at 13 is a realistic option going forward? I have no idea.

I think talking about Earl and some other forward covering the centres is fucking mad.

Yes I think Freeman is a realistic option though I guess it will depend on how much game time ge gets there with Saints
Earl is probably the only backrow that could do it for England, though I'm not sure I'd want to see it against one of the top 6 sides other than maybe covering a 10 minute yellow card. I'd hate it if Borthwick starts making selections based on that happening as a tactical switch

I think Pollock could do it at least as well as Earl - with a bit more experience - probably a bit too green to do it atm.

[Uncle fester]

In other news it ssounds like Farrell is going to appoint an all Ireland coaching team +David Nucifora. Would certainlt benefit the Irish squad members as they are all familiar with them.

Sources have indicated to Telegraph Sport that Farrell will rely on his tried-and-trusted lieutenants in the Ireland set-up despite their underwhelming finish to the Six Nations Championship.
However, Paul O’Connell may not take up a role as forwards coach for which he was strongly touted. Last year, the former Lions second row declared that he did not feel “ready” to take on the role. Andrew Goodman and John Fogarty appear to be the frontrunners to take on the roles of attack and scrum coach respectively.

https://archive.ph/H6bqw#selection-4387.0-4395.319

This is not great news. If Farrell has a weakness, it's that he seems to have a tendency towards sentimentality.