The Official English Rugby Thread

[Ovals]

Assuming Finn is in the Lions party, and Marcus isn't - and assuming Furbank is fit for the Argentina tour - will Borthers put Marcus back at FH or go with Ford......

I'm looking forward to our summer tour - should see some new talent getting an opportunity. Should be interesting to see who comes in as we're likely to lose around 10 of our normal 'starters'. Unfortunately it will probably mean JVP will be the starting SH

[geordie_6]

One thing we desperately need is to figure out viable depth at lock, which feels very bizarre to say as an England fan. After Itoje, Ollie Chessum and Martin it's not immediately clear where we go. CCS did well enough yesterday moving into the row, but he is not a long term solution.

[Paddington Bear]

We should have lost to France and Scotland this time, and that we didn't was in many ways nothing to do with us unless perhaps Fin Smith was using the force to have all those try scoring chances dropped.

Must have imagined us scoring a try bonus point against France and him nailing a kick from the halfway line vs Scotland then!

If you wish to consider that negates all the poor/indifferent play he was party too and makes an indisputable case he must retain the shirt fair enough.

Fwiw I would pick him at 10 next game up, just for me that'd be around trying to build some continuity/progress and not because I think he's wholly claimed the shirt in a manner not seen since Jonny

We can certainly agree he isn’t perfect - yesterday was his fourth international start and he will need to develop. With this said we *do* know what we get from M Smith as he comes up to 50 caps with barely a tier 1 scalp as a starter to his name. He’s undeniably a phenomenal talent and the criticism he gets from Jones etc. is unhinged, but his game does not consistently threaten international teams as it does club ones, and at some point we’ll need to accept that as a feature rather than a bug.

Re: Ford above, I don’t discount Borthwick going back to him from time to time, but given we are now in bUiLdInG fOr ThE wOrLd CuP timescales (and in fairness to Borthwick this is clearly a diktat from up high), I think he’s going to ensure Smith has a large book of starts behind him

[el capitan]

For the second six nations in a row, things got brighter - both in the wins, and especially in terms of the rugby product - the longer the tournament went on and after they'd copped a bit of stick. However a lot of that probably was down to playing Italy and Wales last, and you can't blame anyone for being sceptical given last year wasn't built on and England quickly went back to negative terrorist rugby tactics.

I think overall F. Smith showed enough, and given all the other Saints backs in the mix for a place, that he deserves an extended run in the 10 shirt now. If he's not there, Ford is a capable experienced understudy for the starting spot (and mentor also). M. Smith for me permanently rides the pine in the 22 shirt if everyone in the backline is fit. Some might say that's harsh, and a waste of natural talent, but I think he's just too individualistic and lacking in controlling both his own game and the rest of the backline at test level. Plus to focus on the positive aspects of that role, great weapon to bring on depending on the situation, either at 10 or wider out, if you want more of a running threat from your playmaker or as the game breaks open.

[Ovals]

Following that game against Wales - how long will it be before England go with a 7/1 bench - considering we didn't really need Ford on the bench - we could have done it yesterday - and with guys, like Earl and Pollock, able to fill in in the backs - I reckon it is just a matter of time, especially when we take on sides like France and SA.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

For the second six nations in a row, things got brighter - both in the wins, and especially in terms of the rugby product - the longer the tournament went on and after they'd copped a bit of stick. However a lot of that probably was down to playing Italy and Wales last, and you can't blame anyone for being sceptical given last year wasn't built on and England quickly went back to negative terrorist rugby tactics.

Not to rag on them, they get a bad enough rap as is, but what pray tell would be positive terrorist rugby?

[sockwithaticket]

Following that game against Wales - how long will it be before England go with a 7/1 bench - considering we didn't really need Ford on the bench - we could have done it yesterday - and with guys, like Earl and Pollock, able to fill in in the backs - I reckon it is just a matter of time, especially when we take on sides like France and SA.

I hope never, but against those particular teams who may well do it themselves it seems an inevitability.

A bit dispriting tbh. Seems to indicate that the game becomes ever more a collision sport and the days of being an evasion game are long, long past.

[Paddington Bear]

Following that game against Wales - how long will it be before England go with a 7/1 bench - considering we didn't really need Ford on the bench - we could have done it yesterday - and with guys, like Earl and Pollock, able to fill in in the backs - I reckon it is just a matter of time, especially when we take on sides like France and SA.

I hope never, but against those particular teams who may well do it themselves it seems an inevitability.

A bit dispriting tbh. Seems to indicate that the game becomes ever more a collision sport and the days of being an evasion game are long, long past.

I think it’s inevitable, has to have been discussed now Earl has had stints in the centres. We’re arguably the only other union capable of consistent physical parity with France and SA, and if that’s the way they’re going we likely have to follow.

We also increasingly have dynamism on the bench, CCS, Willis, Dan, Pollock etc

[Ovals]

Following that game against Wales - how long will it be before England go with a 7/1 bench - considering we didn't really need Ford on the bench - we could have done it yesterday - and with guys, like Earl and Pollock, able to fill in in the backs - I reckon it is just a matter of time, especially when we take on sides like France and SA.

I hope never, but against those particular teams who may well do it themselves it seems an inevitability.

A bit dispriting tbh. Seems to indicate that the game becomes ever more a collision sport and the days of being an evasion game are long, long past.

Agreed. I foresee a time (soon) when it is normal to have Backrowers who are hybrid forwards that cover for the centres. Someone like Pollock could easily become one such player.

[Kawazaki]

Anyone who has watched England play with FS at 10 compared to how they play with MS at 10 and then can't see any discernible improvement is either a hopeless rugby observer and/or a pathetic Quin fanboy.

The difference is night and day. There's just far more headroom for England to play with FS pulling the strings. I'm looking forward to seeing FS play a test match with a proper 15 behind him when Furbank returns.

[Ovals]

Anyone who has watched England play with FS at 10 compared to how they play with MS at 10 and then can't see any discernible improvement is either a hopeless rugby observer and/or a pathetic Quin fanboy.

The difference is night and day. There's just far more headroom for England to play with FS pulling the strings. I'm looking forward to seeing FS play a test match with a proper 15 behind him when Furbank returns.

And both a big improvement over Farrell

[Kawazaki]

Anyone who has watched England play with FS at 10 compared to how they play with MS at 10 and then can't see any discernible improvement is either a hopeless rugby observer and/or a pathetic Quin fanboy.

The difference is night and day. There's just far more headroom for England to play with FS pulling the strings. I'm looking forward to seeing FS play a test match with a proper 15 behind him when Furbank returns.

And both a big improvement over Farrell

On a line with Owen Farrell at one end and Marcus Smith at the other, Fin Smith is far far nearer Owen Farrell in terms of keeping the ball ahead of his forwards, controlling tempo, defence, goal kicking, tactical kicking and bringing other players onto the ball.

I suspect it will be touch and go whether Marcus Smith maintains a regular place in the team when other options are available again.

[Paddington Bear]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

[petej]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

Harry Ellis at 9?

[sockwithaticket]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

Harry Ellis at 9?

Matt Dawson comes across as a prick.

Johnny Hill seems like a pretty good shout for the 5 shirt.

What did Foden do?

[tc27]

Ford was pretty bloody good at the end wasn't he? I think he's being quietly brilliant for a while. Long term the Smiths are probably better options but would not at all upset if he was starting at ten.

[Ovals]

Ford was pretty bloody good at the end wasn't he? I think he's being quietly brilliant for a while. Long term the Smiths are probably better options but would not at all upset if he was starting at ten.

He was very good - but the game was over and the Welsh had got very ragged - an armchair ride with gaps everywhere in the defence. His own defence wasn't tested either - Fin is very good on both sides of the ball.

[sockwithaticket]

Ford was pretty bloody good at the end wasn't he? I think he's being quietly brilliant for a while. Long term the Smiths are probably better options but would not at all upset if he was starting at ten.

He was very good - but the game was over and the Welsh had got very ragged - an armchair ride with gaps everywhere in the defence. His own defence wasn't tested either - Fin is very good on both sides of the ball.

He came on around 55 minutes and the Welsh very much had the better of that inital 10 -15 after half time. They couldn't score, but they had us pinned in our third of the pitch. Ford's arrival seemed to coincide with lifting our game again.

[Paddington Bear]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

Harry Ellis at 9?

Matt Dawson comes across as a prick.

Johnny Hill seems like a pretty good shout for the 5 shirt.

What did Foden do?

Got remarried on the day he divorced!

[SaintK]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

Some bloody good players there mind!

[Kawazaki]

He came on around 55 minutes and the Welsh very much had the better of that inital 10 -15 after half time. They couldn't score, but they had us pinned in our third of the pitch. Ford's arrival seemed to coincide with lifting our game again.

Jesus wept, you've gone full Quintard!

[sockwithaticket]

He came on around 55 minutes and the Welsh very much had the better of that inital 10 -15 after half time. They couldn't score, but they had us pinned in our third of the pitch. Ford's arrival seemed to coincide with lifting our game again.

Jesus wept, you've gone full Quintard!

By suggesting that a player who has never played for Quins helped lift us out of a second half slump.

Right.

[Paddington Bear]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

Some bloody good players there mind!

The vibe is four crushing wins followed by choking the slam in Dublin, two players arrested after an incident in Temple Bar and the side’s post match social plastered across MailOnline

[Sandstorm]

He came on around 55 minutes and the Welsh very much had the better of that inital 10 -15 after half time. They couldn't score, but they had us pinned in our third of the pitch. Ford's arrival seemed to coincide with lifting our game again.

Jesus wept, you've gone full Quintard!

If F Smith plays for the Lions, has a horror-show performance and gets dropped, will you agree to do us all a favour and fuck-off back to PR?

[Ovals]

Ford was pretty bloody good at the end wasn't he? I think he's being quietly brilliant for a while. Long term the Smiths are probably better options but would not at all upset if he was starting at ten.

He was very good - but the game was over and the Welsh had got very ragged - an armchair ride with gaps everywhere in the defence. His own defence wasn't tested either - Fin is very good on both sides of the ball.

He came on around 55 minutes and the Welsh very much had the better of that inital 10 -15 after half time. They couldn't score, but they had us pinned in our third of the pitch. Ford's arrival seemed to coincide with lifting our game again.

The 'header' from Daly was what ended that period, rather than Ford's introduction - after that Wales fell apart and looked shagged out.

[tc27]

So.my question is should England practice heading the ball forward? Thread last three times it's happened we have scored.

[Ovals]

So.my question is should England practice heading the ball forward? Thread last three times it's happened we have scored.

It should be a knock on - needs a change to the laws.

[Raggs]

So.my question is should England practice heading the ball forward? Thread last three times it's happened we have scored.

It should be a knock on - needs a change to the laws.

You're not allowed to do it deliberately. I think that's sufficient.

[Kawazaki]

He came on around 55 minutes and the Welsh very much had the better of that inital 10 -15 after half time. They couldn't score, but they had us pinned in our third of the pitch. Ford's arrival seemed to coincide with lifting our game again.

Jesus wept, you've gone full Quintard!

If F Smith plays for the Lions, has a horror-show performance and gets dropped, will you agree to do us all a favour and fuck-off back to PR?

If M Smith plays for the Lions, has a horror-show performance and gets dropped, will you agree to do us all a favour and fuck-off back to PR?

[Kawazaki]

You're not allowed to do it deliberately. I think that's sufficient.

I didn't know that.

[Punter15]

So the Prem is trialling away ends. Seriously? As a Bath resident am I supposed to start worrying about the Harlequins Ultras coming in a couple of weeks?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

So.my question is should England practice heading the ball forward? Thread last three times it's happened we have scored.

It should be a knock on - needs a change to the laws.

You're not allowed to do it deliberately. I think that's sufficient.

what's that covered under?

you couldn't throw it up for yourself, or you'd have to somehow throw it backwards and still get your head on it, but what covers heading a ball in open play you've not thrown forwards? against the spirit would be a fair charge perhaps

[Rhubarb & Custard]

So.my question is should England practice heading the ball forward? Thread last three times it's happened we have scored.

It should be a knock on - needs a change to the laws.

could that see a ball carrier looking to pass into a defender to again a scrum? you probably couldn't be certain you'd get the chance, and it'd have some risk, but there might be moments you could exploit such opportunity

[SaintK]

Not sure this will make much difference but worth a try.

The Premiership will trial away ­sections for supporters in two forthcoming matches in April, in an effort to improve atmospheres in top‑flight fixtures.
It is understood that for ­Saracens’ fixture against Gloucester on 19 April and Leicester’s match against ­Harlequins on 26 April, ­specific areas for visiting supporters to congregate in will be created.
Traditionally, rugby crowds have been unsegregated with many supporters holding the view that being able to mix with opposing fans is one of the sport’s appeals. But there is a school of thought that separate areas of concentrated visiting fans would lead to greater noise.
Premiership Rugby announced in October that it was considering a trial and it is understood a number of clubs have expressed an interest. Organisers are keen to stress that visiting supporters can still watch elsewhere in the stadiums and mix with home fans if they wish.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025 ... hip-fans

[Raggs]

I like the idea of having a designated area to allow them to group if they want, whilst not segregating those who don't want to be.

[Paddington Bear]

Agree it’s worth trying. It (I think?) used to be part of the regs for the Heineken and Challenge Cups, I think on the whole I’d sit in an away section unless going with a mate who supports the oppo etc. Might encourage a few more away fans to travel as well

[Slick]

Not sure this will make much difference but worth a try.

The Premiership will trial away ­sections for supporters in two forthcoming matches in April, in an effort to improve atmospheres in top‑flight fixtures.
It is understood that for ­Saracens’ fixture against Gloucester on 19 April and Leicester’s match against ­Harlequins on 26 April, ­specific areas for visiting supporters to congregate in will be created.
Traditionally, rugby crowds have been unsegregated with many supporters holding the view that being able to mix with opposing fans is one of the sport’s appeals. But there is a school of thought that separate areas of concentrated visiting fans would lead to greater noise.
Premiership Rugby announced in October that it was considering a trial and it is understood a number of clubs have expressed an interest. Organisers are keen to stress that visiting supporters can still watch elsewhere in the stadiums and mix with home fans if they wish.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025 ... hip-fans

I was just about to start a thread on the English ruining the game but you beat me to it.

[Slick]

Agree it’s worth trying. It (I think?) used to be part of the regs for the Heineken and Challenge Cups, I think on the whole I’d sit in an away section unless going with a mate who supports the oppo etc. Might encourage a few more away fans to travel as well

You are all disgusting

[Tichtheid]

I remember Robbie Savage being at a rugby game and couldn't believe the size of the players, but he also said the atmosphere was a bit, meh.

The same Robbie Savage almost kaked his breeks at an Old Firm game. The police and SFA allowed away supporters at a Celtic Rangers game this weekend, it was the first time for two and half years or something. I'm not saying rugby will end up like that, 99.9% of football fixtures don't.

Isn't mixing with the opposition supporters part of the fun?

[Hal Jordan]

Agree it’s worth trying. It (I think?) used to be part of the regs for the Heineken and Challenge Cups, I think on the whole I’d sit in an away section unless going with a mate who supports the oppo etc. Might encourage a few more away fans to travel as well

You are all disgusting

I'm not a fan of "away fans" ends, if only because it would deprive opposition fans of my inventive cursing when whichever team I happen to be supporting contrives to fuck it up in a new and interesting way.