2025 6N thread

[Lobby]

Funnily enough there is suddenly a perfect overhead footage, all over Twitter, that shows it's a full headbutt directly to White's face.

I don't actually remember seeing White go off for an HIA, which presumably is why it wasn't upgraded to a red as there simply wasn't much contact. Which is beyond lucky for a beyond stupid action, he could have easily gotten similar force contact to Botha on Cowan.

That said I wasn't watching that closely, my first instinct was to penalise White for going full footballer, but that's somewhat harsh for all he does seem to reach for some am-dram skills. I have to say I've no sense of what Mauvaka should get for this, in many ways it'd be easier if he really had stuck one on White, he deserves something and yet not a lot seemingly actually resulted from his disgusting reaction

There is a difference between an illegal high tackle during a period of play and basically trying to head butt another player. If a tackle then the protocol comes into play and the degree of danger, where contact is made, degree of force, etc all become part of the equation and decision making. If a player deliberately head butts another player lying on the ground, as in this case, then those issues become immaterial, it is the illegality of the actions of the player ie the head butt alone, that leads to a straight red card. In the video above then it is clear that Mauvaka launches himself using his legs to thrust his head into the head of White who is lying on the ground having done little if anything wrong. It is an unprovoked violent act and should have been a straight red card followed by a lengthy ban.

A Fiji Drua player was shown a straight red card for a headbutt in the Super Rugby Pacific last year. There was less force than Mauvaka's flying headbutt and contact was on the chest rather than the head, but the Fijian player was rightly shown a straight red. The game was played under the 20 minute red card protocols, but as the player was shown a straight red, he was sent off for the rest of the match.

https://x.com/StanSportRugby/status/1776194229296877854

The Super Rugby ref got this right. Unsurprisingly Carley, and then the useless TMO got this completely wrong

[Kawazaki]

x.

[Kawazaki]

Funnily enough there is suddenly a perfect overhead footage, all over Twitter, that shows it's a full headbutt directly to White's face.

In the overhead shot it still looks like Mauvaka's head goes to the left and under White's chin.

I'm only saying what I'm seeing.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Funnily enough there is suddenly a perfect overhead footage, all over Twitter, that shows it's a full headbutt directly to White's face.

I don't actually remember seeing White go off for an HIA, which presumably is why it wasn't upgraded to a red as there simply wasn't much contact. Which is beyond lucky for a beyond stupid action, he could have easily gotten similar force contact to Botha on Cowan.

That said I wasn't watching that closely, my first instinct was to penalise White for going full footballer, but that's somewhat harsh for all he does seem to reach for some am-dram skills. I have to say I've no sense of what Mauvaka should get for this, in many ways it'd be easier if he really had stuck one on White, he deserves something and yet not a lot seemingly actually resulted from his disgusting reaction

There is a difference between an illegal high tackle during a period of play and basically trying to head butt another player. If a tackle then the protocol comes into play and the degree of danger, where contact is made, degree of force, etc all become part of the equation and decision making. If a player deliberately head butts another player lying on the ground, as in this case, then those issues become immaterial, it is the illegality of the actions of the player ie the head butt alone, that leads to a straight red card. In the video above then it is clear that Mauvaka launches himself using his legs to thrust his head into the head of White who is lying on the ground having done little if anything wrong. It is an unprovoked violent act and should have been a straight red card followed by a lengthy ban.

I don't especially want to defend Mauvaka in this, if he gets an 8-16 week ban just for sheer stupidity so be it, but it does look more a head brush than but, granted more by luck than judgement. And then we get into what if you throw a punch that misses territory

I'm also not sure he launches himself at the head, me might be trying to collide the torso. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to tell the difference looking at the video. Mauvaka may know, but if he was being an utter git he's unlikely to come clean at this juncture

[Torquemada 1420]

I don't especially want to defend Mauvaka in this, if he gets an 8-16 week ban just for sheer stupidity so be it, but it does look more a head brush than but, granted more by luck than judgement.

Am still seething at the crass stupidity of it. Expect it of a cretin like Haouas (blame Galthie for the selection) but it's the sort of thing that would have me perma drop a player.
Not like Marchand is a poor 2nd choice.

[Biffer]

. Most of the people saying he shouldn't get a big ban because he hardly made contact with the head are also the ones who would often say foul play shouldn't be judged on outcomes.

[Jock42]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

[Slick]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

[dpedin]

I don't actually remember seeing White go off for an HIA, which presumably is why it wasn't upgraded to a red as there simply wasn't much contact. Which is beyond lucky for a beyond stupid action, he could have easily gotten similar force contact to Botha on Cowan.

That said I wasn't watching that closely, my first instinct was to penalise White for going full footballer, but that's somewhat harsh for all he does seem to reach for some am-dram skills. I have to say I've no sense of what Mauvaka should get for this, in many ways it'd be easier if he really had stuck one on White, he deserves something and yet not a lot seemingly actually resulted from his disgusting reaction

There is a difference between an illegal high tackle during a period of play and basically trying to head butt another player. If a tackle then the protocol comes into play and the degree of danger, where contact is made, degree of force, etc all become part of the equation and decision making. If a player deliberately head butts another player lying on the ground, as in this case, then those issues become immaterial, it is the illegality of the actions of the player ie the head butt alone, that leads to a straight red card. In the video above then it is clear that Mauvaka launches himself using his legs to thrust his head into the head of White who is lying on the ground having done little if anything wrong. It is an unprovoked violent act and should have been a straight red card followed by a lengthy ban.

I don't especially want to defend Mauvaka in this, if he gets an 8-16 week ban just for sheer stupidity so be it, but it does look more a head brush than but, granted more by luck than judgement. And then we get into what if you throw a punch that misses territory

I'm also not sure he launches himself at the head, me might be trying to collide the torso. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to tell the difference looking at the video. Mauvaka may know, but if he was being an utter git he's unlikely to come clean at this juncture

Again you cant judge his behavior on whether he injured White or if he hit his head or neck - he launched himself head first into another player's head area and made contact with his head or as damn as near it to make it difficult to tell. It is the act and the intention that is punishable here not whether he actually hit White's forehead, cheek or chin! It was not a tackle, it was a deliberate violent act after the whistle had gone and with White lying prone on the ground, you should not apply the dangerous tackle criteria to this act.

It is the similar debate about when Murray jumped into the tackle against Scotland and went on to score a 'try', he was punished for a dangerous jump into the tackle and not let off because he didn't make contact with anyone whilst making a dangerous and illegal act. The outcome is irrelevant if he has clearly jumped into the tackle, end of!

[Jock42]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

At the very least surely some reflective practice with a more senior ref(s)?

[Biffer]

French TV didn't show us all the angles?

I'm as shocked as I've ever been

Shocked beyond my previous concept of shockability

Shocked to a shockhoodness that barely bears comparison to my previous under standing of beshockedness.

Is anyone else shocked or am I alone on my shocking little island of shockeroonie-edness?

[Yeeb]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

Need to award the match to Scotland I think , by about 65 points they would have beaten a poor French side a man down after 20 mins by.
Any effect on the end table is coincidental.

[Biffer]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

[SaintK]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

At the very least surely some reflective practice with a more senior ref(s)?

Problem is he is a senior ref, he's 40 tests in since 2017.
All refs and officials are reviewed after a test match. Hopefully head of WR referees Joel Jutge wil give him more than a slap on the wrists for that performance though I doubt anything will be made public!!

[Tichtheid]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

I’m less critical of Carley here than I am of Tempest.
Tempest doesn’t have the white heat of a test match to deal with, he should have said it wasn’t a tackle situation.
Then after failing that he should have upgraded yellow to red
He can call for all angles to be shown in the 8 minutes he has to deal with it

[topofthemoon]

There were only two match officials who were awarded more than a single game as ref during the current Six Nations - which you would think would give some indication where they are considered to rank in the current pecking order of top tier officials.

One is Matthew Carley, the ref for France v Scotland, the other is Karl Dickson, the lead Assistant Referee for France v Scotland.

Marius van der Westhuizen (TMO) and Ian Tempest (FPRO) both had three appointments, putting them among the top rank of the off field officials.

Basically this was about as experienced and rated a team of officials as there could have been and they still went down the wrong route with their decision-making.

There is something more fundamental wrong than just this group of five officials.

[Biffer]

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

I’m less critical of Carley here than I am of Tempest.
Tempest doesn’t have the white heat of a test match to deal with, he should have said it wasn’t a tackle situation.
Then after failing that he should have upgraded yellow to red
He can call for all angles to be shown in the 8 minutes he has to deal with it

Yeah, I understand that, but Carlet has been below international standard for all his time as an international ref. Somehow went from just learning to too experienced to be called shit without anyone picking up the fact he wasn't up to it.

[Kawazaki]

I don't like Carley because I don't think he's very empathetic to the players and has a standoffish aura about him. However, he's actually considered as possibly the best referee in terms of his technical proficiency and strict adherence to the letter of the laws rather than an interpretation of them.

Which is kind of ironic.

[Biffer]

I like Mauvaka, he’s really fun to watch and I’ve no problem with these 3 weeks. At least no players were injured like Ire-Fra with 1 concussion , 1 player out for 6 months and not even a yc
Yes it’s a big problem with the rucks and some refs like Carley and Gardner too many to list, the best one right now is Pearce.

Agrred about Pearce. Of all the more experienced refs around atm, I think he'd be the most likely to have said 'why do I need to send that to the bunker? That fella is done for the day"

[Uncle fester]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

People keep saying this but fact of the matter is that these are the best refs out there. It is a serious serious process to get to that level and any weaker refs are weeded out long beforehand.

[Uncle fester]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

Nope. The most incriminating angle was only available after the game.

[Biffer]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

Nope. The most incriminating angle was only available after the game.

Was it? It wasn't shown on TV, but they're meant to have access to all of them in the ref box. If they didn't the French producers shiuld have the contract removed.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

There is a difference between an illegal high tackle during a period of play and basically trying to head butt another player. If a tackle then the protocol comes into play and the degree of danger, where contact is made, degree of force, etc all become part of the equation and decision making. If a player deliberately head butts another player lying on the ground, as in this case, then those issues become immaterial, it is the illegality of the actions of the player ie the head butt alone, that leads to a straight red card. In the video above then it is clear that Mauvaka launches himself using his legs to thrust his head into the head of White who is lying on the ground having done little if anything wrong. It is an unprovoked violent act and should have been a straight red card followed by a lengthy ban.

I don't especially want to defend Mauvaka in this, if he gets an 8-16 week ban just for sheer stupidity so be it, but it does look more a head brush than but, granted more by luck than judgement. And then we get into what if you throw a punch that misses territory

I'm also not sure he launches himself at the head, me might be trying to collide the torso. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to tell the difference looking at the video. Mauvaka may know, but if he was being an utter git he's unlikely to come clean at this juncture

Again you cant judge his behavior on whether he injured White or if he hit his head or neck - he launched himself head first into another player's head area and made contact with his head or as damn as near it to make it difficult to tell. It is the act and the intention that is punishable here not whether he actually hit White's forehead, cheek or chin! It was not a tackle, it was a deliberate violent act after the whistle had gone and with White lying prone on the ground, you should not apply the dangerous tackle criteria to this act.

It is the similar debate about when Murray jumped into the tackle against Scotland and went on to score a 'try', he was punished for a dangerous jump into the tackle and not let off because he didn't make contact with anyone whilst making a dangerous and illegal act. The outcome is irrelevant if he has clearly jumped into the tackle, end of!

I wasn't applying a tackle situation, merely I was pondering to sanction a headbutt there being a butt wouldn't not be a thing.

If the standard is driving into dangerous space then fine, only it's not as we see with POM attempting to end the career of Dupont

[Slick]

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

People keep saying this but fact of the matter is that these are the best refs out there. It is a serious serious process to get to that level and any weaker refs are weeded out long beforehand.

I agree with this. I don’t think he is particularly bad at all, but this was a stinker.

They’ve put refs in a shit situation where they can duck big decisions but still get all the crap. There is a team of at least 5 who’s sole aim should be to help the ref make the right decision and be the sole arbiter and that doesn’t seem to be happening

[Paddington Bear]

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

People keep saying this but fact of the matter is that these are the best refs out there. It is a serious serious process to get to that level and any weaker refs are weeded out long beforehand.

I agree with this. I don’t think he is particularly bad at all, but this was a stinker.

They’ve put refs in a shit situation where they can duck big decisions but still get all the crap. There is a team of at least 5 who’s sole aim should be to help the ref make the right decision and be the sole arbiter and that doesn’t seem to be happening

Tend to agree with this. We shouldn’t conflate ref abuse, quibbling over technical decisions and asking for accountability from professionals. An equivalent mistake from a player would see them sent back to the club game for a bit

[Biffer]

Genuinely, if you don't think Carley is shit, you've not watched him much.

[Biffer]

Correct me. If I'm wrong. In 1990,punxhing someone was a red card. Is that right

Genuine question.

[topofthemoon]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

Nope. The most incriminating angle was only available after the game.

Not sure that's relevant. The information was all there to make the correct decision. After the whistle. Off the ball. Strike with the head. Contact with the head confirmed by the TMO. Straight red under Law 9.12.

Instead, Carley - with the rest of the 'Team of 4' complicit - wandered off down the Head Contact Process route. A process designed to assess in play actions under Laws 9.11 (ball carrier leading with forearm or elbow into head), 9.13 (dangerous tackle with head contact) and 9.20 (dangerous ruck entry with head contact).

It was a straightforward cock-up by all involved.

[Blackmac]

Correct me. If I'm wrong. In 1990,punxhing someone was a red card. Is that right

Genuine question.

Pretty much yes. Was it not Scott Murray who was sent off for swinging a boot at an opponents leg and barely made contact.

[Biffer]

Correct me. If I'm wrong. In 1990,punxhing someone was a red card. Is that right

Genuine question.

Pretty much yes. Was it not Scott Murray who was sent off for swinging a boot at an opponents leg and barely made contact.

just wondering, because in Carley's first ever game as a ref in 1990 he gave someone a yellow for punching another player. Start as you mean to continue, eh.

[Oxbow]

Correct me. If I'm wrong. In 1990,punxhing someone was a red card. Is that right

Genuine question.

Pretty much yes. Was it not Scott Murray who was sent off for swinging a boot at an opponents leg and barely made contact.

just wondering, because in Carley's first ever game as a ref in 1990 he gave someone a yellow for punching another player. Start as you mean to continue, eh.

Ah come on now, it must have been tough refereeing a game at just six years old.

[Torquemada 1420]

Genuinely, if you don't think Carley is shit, you've not watched him much.

He is certainly the worst competence wise in the NH. Brace is simply an outright cheat.

[Lobby]

Correct me. If I'm wrong. In 1990,punxhing someone was a red card. Is that right

Genuine question.

Pretty much yes. Was it not Scott Murray who was sent off for swinging a boot at an opponents leg and barely made contact.

Murray was sent off because he kicked Ian Gough's head. It was a glancing blow and almost certainly accidental, but in modern parlance, there was contact with the head. It was also in 2006, some 16 years after the time period queried by Biffer.

Back in the 90s a punch would generally result in a strict telling off by the referee but not much more. When Kobus Wiese knocked Derwyn Jones out cold with a blindside punch in 1995 he wasn't carded and played on for the rest of the match (although he did later receive a 30 day ban).

In the 80s it was even worse. Wade Dooley broke John Davies jaw with a punch in 1989. John Beattie took Dooley out with a punch in the opening seconds of a Calcutta Cup match in 1986 (and into the 2010s Beattie was still arguing that punching an opponent should only warrant a penalty and that sending players off for fighting was ridiculous).

Even into the 2000s a punch up would often only result in a yellow card. For example when Julian White punched Malcolm O'Kelly several times in a Leicester Leinster match in 2008 he was only shown a yellow card. This was despite him carrying on after the ref, Joel Jutge, telling him to stop.

[SaintK]

Pretty much yes. Was it not Scott Murray who was sent off for swinging a boot at an opponents leg and barely made contact.

just wondering, because in Carley's first ever game as a ref in 1990 he gave someone a yellow for punching another player. Start as you mean to continue, eh.

Ah come on now, it must have been tough refereeing a game at just six years old.

Quite!
Carley was given his first international match in 2016.

[dpedin]

I don't especially want to defend Mauvaka in this, if he gets an 8-16 week ban just for sheer stupidity so be it, but it does look more a head brush than but, granted more by luck than judgement. And then we get into what if you throw a punch that misses territory

I'm also not sure he launches himself at the head, me might be trying to collide the torso. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to tell the difference looking at the video. Mauvaka may know, but if he was being an utter git he's unlikely to come clean at this juncture

Again you cant judge his behavior on whether he injured White or if he hit his head or neck - he launched himself head first into another player's head area and made contact with his head or as damn as near it to make it difficult to tell. It is the act and the intention that is punishable here not whether he actually hit White's forehead, cheek or chin! It was not a tackle, it was a deliberate violent act after the whistle had gone and with White lying prone on the ground, you should not apply the dangerous tackle criteria to this act.

It is the similar debate about when Murray jumped into the tackle against Scotland and went on to score a 'try', he was punished for a dangerous jump into the tackle and not let off because he didn't make contact with anyone whilst making a dangerous and illegal act. The outcome is irrelevant if he has clearly jumped into the tackle, end of!

I wasn't applying a tackle situation, merely I was pondering to sanction a headbutt there being a butt wouldn't not be a thing.

If the standard is driving into dangerous space then fine, only it's not as we see with POM attempting to end the career of Dupont

Again you are confusing a dangerous tackle/clear out whilst the game was going on and ball was in the ruck being contested with a reckless and violent act after the whistle had been blown and the ball nowhere near either of them. See Topofthemoon post for detail on rules that apply.

[Yr Alban]

Irrespective of whether it should have been a straight red or not, I disagree with everyone who has said it wouldn’t have affected the outcome of the game. France v Scotland was very finely balanced at HT and the game only swung France’s way when they started flexing their bench. If they had been playing with 14 in the second half it could have made a huge difference.

[SaintK]

Genuinely, if you don't think Carley is shit, you've not watched him much.

He is certainly the worst competence wise in the NH. Brace is simply an outright cheat.

Brace doesn't deliberately cheat he is just hugely inconsistent as is Fank Murphy.
I don't think Carley is anywhere near the worst, Mike Adamson is the most incompetent referee I've noticed in the NH followed by several French refs including Brousset (sp)
T

[Tichtheid]

Irrespective of whether it should have been a straight red or not, I disagree with everyone who has said it wouldn’t have affected the outcome of the game. France v Scotland was very finely balanced at HT and the game only swung France’s way when they started flexing their bench. If they had been playing with 14 in the second half it could have made a huge difference.

I suppose it's the "sportsmanship" angle, but I agree, when Scotland's attack is based mainly around getting around the outside of a team rather than thumping it up through the middle, playing with 14 for an hour takes its toll on a defence.

[Lobby]

Genuinely, if you don't think Carley is shit, you've not watched him much.

He is certainly the worst competence wise in the NH. Brace is simply an outright cheat.

Brace doesn't deliberately cheat he is just hugely inconsistent as is Fank Murphy.
I don't think Carley is anywhere near the worst, Mike Adamson is the most incompetent referee I've noticed in the NH followed by several French refs including Brousset (sp)
T

Most incompetent refereeing performance I've ever seen was from Griffin Colby (SA) in the U20 match.

[Slick]

Genuinely, if you don't think Carley is shit, you've not watched him much.

He is certainly the worst competence wise in the NH. Brace is simply an outright cheat.

Brace doesn't deliberately cheat he is just hugely inconsistent as is Fank Murphy.
I don't think Carley is anywhere near the worst, Mike Adamson is the most incompetent referee I've noticed in the NH followed by several French refs including Brousset (sp)
T

No referee cheats, it's primary school level discussion.