President Trump and US politics catchall

[obelixtim]

Funny how Biden is now expected to clean this shit up.

An adult has returned home to find that the kids have broken all the furniture and smeared shit all over the walls and they are going to have to clean it all up.

And in 4 years time, they'll just elect Ivanka, anyway.

Nah. The name Trump or anyone associated with it is going to be political poison in the future.

They are toast, and the carcase of the Trump empire is going to be picked clean by the sharks and vultures who are beginning to circle. And that is just his creditors, let alone the justice system who will be after him.

[Kiwias]

Joe's acceptance speech was not a doddery old codger stuttering a mangled word or two. The USA may yet get a few useful years out of him.

It was a great speech, worthy of an American president. Kamala's was even better.

[Blake]

Funny how Biden is now expected to clean this shit up.

An adult has returned home to find that the kids have broken all the furniture and smeared shit all over the walls and they are going to have to clean it all up.

And in 4 years time, they'll just elect Ivanka, anyway.

Nah. The name Trump or anyone associated with it is going to be political poison in the future.

They are toast, and the carcase of the Trump empire is going to be picked clean by the sharks and vultures who are beginning to circle. And that is just his creditors, let alone the justice system who will be after him.

While that is a lovely image and I hope it comes true, the Trumps have proven that they are survivors and their grifts have no shame.

I expect plenty of “legal fund” contribution solicitations once the new DOJ starts prosecuting them and Fox News paints them as victims being crushed by Joe Biden’s fascist, socialist state.

Also Trump is going to be a kingmaker in GOP primaries (if he doesn’t go to jail). Tea Party and QAnon Republicans are going to line up to purchase Trumps endorsement and appearance at their rallies...and he’ll be happy to sell it to the highest bidder.

[Blake]

Yeah, that’s where I do disagree.

There are plenty of problems where these demographics do have a justifiable point. An example would be immigration.

For me, problems with immigration are substantially outweighed by the positives, especially over the long term.

But for people who live day by day, they don’t give a fuck about long term, nuanced benefits. They just see a simple and immediate supply and demand issue, that Brexit (Uk) and trump (US) promise to resolve.

They have a point.

Calling them morons is just an ad hominem approach that won’t work in my view.

I agree with you mate. I don’t think it is really all that helpful to label them as “stupid”. Your observation relating to “short term thinking” I think is spot-on to some extent.

But I think the biggest problem is te desire to ascribe to “simple solutions to complex problems”. There is no willingness to engage is nuance and the inter-relatedness of problems...every issue/problem has a simple solution.
Immigration? Just build a wall.
Islamist threats? Ban Muslims
Teen pregnancies leading to abortions? Close clinics
Hurricanes? Pray harder and blame the gays
Forest fires? Sweep up the kindling
Being smashed by China in trade? Put a tax on imports
Kids getting shot at school? More security and give teachers guns too!
Etc etc

While I loathe to call them stupid, there seems to be a large overlap between people looking for “simple answers” to life’s problems and religious folks as well. The simplest answer of “God did it” or “It was God’s will” has given a lot of them a lifetime of not questioning much in terms of cause and effect. This lack of skepticism also makes them ideal targets for grifters and conmen.

It’s a broad generalization though, and obviously can’t be applied to the whole group, but I think to a significant slice in both the USA and SA.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Yeah, that’s where I do disagree.

There are plenty of problems where these demographics do have a justifiable point. An example would be immigration.

For me, problems with immigration are substantially outweighed by the positives, especially over the long term.

But for people who live day by day, they don’t give a fuck about long term, nuanced benefits. They just see a simple and immediate supply and demand issue, that Brexit (Uk) and trump (US) promise to resolve.

They have a point.

Calling them morons is just an ad hominem approach that won’t work in my view.

I agree with you mate. I don’t think it is ally all helpful to label them as “stupid”. Your observation relating to “short term thinking” I think is spot-on to some extent.

But I think the biggest problem is te desire to ascribe to “simple solutions to complex problems”. There is no willingness to engage is nuance and the inter-relatedness of problems...every issue/problem has a simple solution.
Immigration? Just build a wall.
Islamist threats? Ban Muslims
Teen pregnancies leading to abortions? Close clinics
Hurricanes? Pray harder and blame the gays
Forest fires? Sweep up the kindling
Being smashed by China in trade? Put a tax on imports
Kids getting shot at school? More security and give teachers guns too!
Etc etc

While I loathe to call them stupid, there seems to be a large overlap between people looking for “simple answers” to life’s problems and religious folks as well. The simplest answer of “God did it” or “It was God’s will” has given a lot of them a lifetime of not questioning much in terms of cause and effect. This lack of skepticism also makes them ideal targets for grifters and conmen.

It’s a broad generalization though, and obviously can’t be applied to the whole group, but I think to a significant slice in both the USA and SA.

Very good post.

[Insane_Homer]

To the guy that booked that one.

[stemoc]

Nice way of saying Get fucked and Die.

[Slick]

I think there is also an element of Trump bringing folk into politics that had never engaged before. From the outside being a bully on the world stage, bringing a hammer to every problem and alienating people you should be working with looked great.

But it doesn’t work. There needs to be statecraft, there needs to be negotiation or, as has happened, at the first chink in the armour everyone leaves you on your own

[tabascoboy]

While I loathe to call them stupid, there seems to be a large overlap between people looking for “simple answers” to life’s problems and religious folks as well. The simplest answer of “God did it” or “It was God’s will” has given a lot of them a lifetime of not questioning much in terms of cause and effect. This lack of skepticism also makes them ideal targets for grifters and conmen.

It’s a broad generalization though, and obviously can’t be applied to the whole group, but I think to a significant slice in both the USA and SA.

Agreed. Most of us are probably guilty of this to some extent in a world which we can feel that we have less and less control over the events in our lives. The old tenets of "work harder and longer" or "pray to and trust in your deity" to improve your life feel ever more inapplicable. Much easier to play or exploit the blame game and the usual old suspects of foreigners / lefties / unions / the rich will always make good scapegoats, joined now by corporations and globalism or in our case the EU. In that situation, nationalism and insularity or religious zealotry is always going to flourish and there will always be people to take personal advantage of it. Social media is clearly making this easier too.

[Hong Kong]

[Random1]

Yeah, that’s where I do disagree.

There are plenty of problems where these demographics do have a justifiable point. An example would be immigration.

For me, problems with immigration are substantially outweighed by the positives, especially over the long term.

But for people who live day by day, they don’t give a fuck about long term, nuanced benefits. They just see a simple and immediate supply and demand issue, that Brexit (Uk) and trump (US) promise to resolve.

They have a point.

Calling them morons is just an ad hominem approach that won’t work in my view.

I agree with you mate. I don’t think it is really all that helpful to label them as “stupid”. Your observation relating to “short term thinking” I think is spot-on to some extent.

But I think the biggest problem is te desire to ascribe to “simple solutions to complex problems”. There is no willingness to engage is nuance and the inter-relatedness of problems...every issue/problem has a simple solution.
Immigration? Just build a wall.
Islamist threats? Ban Muslims
Teen pregnancies leading to abortions? Close clinics
Hurricanes? Pray harder and blame the gays
Forest fires? Sweep up the kindling
Being smashed by China in trade? Put a tax on imports
Kids getting shot at school? More security and give teachers guns too!
Etc etc

While I loathe to call them stupid, there seems to be a large overlap between people looking for “simple answers” to life’s problems and religious folks as well. The simplest answer of “God did it” or “It was God’s will” has given a lot of them a lifetime of not questioning much in terms of cause and effect. This lack of skepticism also makes them ideal targets for grifters and conmen.

It’s a broad generalization though, and obviously can’t be applied to the whole group, but I think to a significant slice in both the USA and SA.

Yeah, I think your last point is one that’s Especially worth highlighting - generalisation has been a problem for why getting to grips with this could be hard.

For example, I agree with you that there are plenty of trumpers that like simple answers.

But then you have plenty that believe in the most complex and convoluted conspiracy theories, that means that significant cohort can handle, and even embrace, complexity.

The wider point I suppose is that we’re all right; there are morons, there are short termers, there are simplistic folk, there are the religious and overall there is a lack of critical thinkers.

The real people to blame are social scientists who think that society can be separated into monolithic cohorts and those cohorts have consistent, predictable traits.

It has become ubiquitous in the media and work places and has made us all lazy in our assertions.

The real battle is individualism vs collectivism, and these social scientist are causing so much strife with their divisive nonsense like CRT and White privilege.

[Random1]

Sorry. I don't buy it.

I can believe that someone might have more immediate priorities than climate change (although, if you feel that changing weather patterns are some kind of elaborate hoax which don't affect you, there's probably a case to be made against your being terribly smart).

However, the assumption that Donald Trump is doing everything in his power to address your difficulties indicates a gullibility which betrays a weak intellect.

Feels like you’re railing against people without critical thinking skills rather than intelligence.

It always amazes me that intelligent people believe in religion, but they do.

Same shit different topic for me.


Trump = the Pope et al.

Isn't critical thinking skills what we are talking about?

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't see how you can complain about being called a moron if the man you choose to represent the best of you is Donald J. Trump.

The only way we were talking about critical skills initially is if you think that intelligence and critical thinking are the same things.

For me, they aren’t.

Intelligence is innate.

Critical thinking is a skill set, that is learnt.

I gave an example of the religious.

It’s clear that very clever people can be religious, it’s just that they aren’t generally taught critical thinking as it’s apostasy to question that bullshit too much.

[dpedin]

For me, problems with immigration are substantially outweighed by the positives, especially over the long term.

But for people who live day by day, they don’t give a fuck about long term, nuanced benefits. They just see a simple and immediate supply and demand issue, that Brexit (Uk) and trump (US) promise to resolve.

They have a point.

I don't think they do have a point. I just don't think they have the desire to explore the real facts and find it easier to blame a minority for their woes and this current Gov fan the flames as it avoids them having to deal with the issues. It is easier to complain 'those foreigners' are taking all our jobs when the reality is very different. They complain that 'those foreigners jump the NHS queue', 'those foreigners get the council houses' etc as an easy pass. It really is easier to blame someone else for your misfortune than it is to do something about it. My mate gave up trying to hire UK folk into hotel housekeeping jobs, and he really tried, because they were generally lazy, unreliable and didnt last more than a few weeks. The old saying is true - you are more likely to be treated by an immigrant than be behind one in the NHS queue and its not the immigrants fault the Tory party decided council housing was a bad thing and tried to eradicate the sector and put it onto the hands of the private landlord. They don't have a point ... they just find it easier to listen to the right wing Tory/UKIP/Brexit party drivel about 'the immigrants on our beaches invading us' and use its racist ideology as an excuse to support their own racist views. Dangerous path to follow!

[Uncle fester]

If he does refuse to leave, he'll get dragged out the door, right?

[clive]

I think we have to have jobs for the Trump family. A lollypop man for Trump a Porn actress for his Mrs, and for his sons a think anything that involves shovelling shit.

[Random1]

For me, problems with immigration are substantially outweighed by the positives, especially over the long term.

But for people who live day by day, they don’t give a fuck about long term, nuanced benefits. They just see a simple and immediate supply and demand issue, that Brexit (Uk) and trump (US) promise to resolve.

They have a point.

I don't think they do have a point. I just don't think they have the desire to explore the real facts and find it easier to blame a minority for their woes and this current Gov fan the flames as it avoids them having to deal with the issues. It is easier to complain 'those foreigners' are taking all our jobs when the reality is very different. They complain that 'those foreigners jump the NHS queue', 'those foreigners get the council houses' etc as an easy pass. It really is easier to blame someone else for your misfortune than it is to do something about it. My mate gave up trying to hire UK folk into hotel housekeeping jobs, and he really tried, because they were generally lazy, unreliable and didnt last more than a few weeks. The old saying is true - you are more likely to be treated by an immigrant than be behind one in the NHS queue and its not the immigrants fault the Tory party decided council housing was a bad thing and tried to eradicate the sector and put it onto the hands of the private landlord. They don't have a point ... they just find it easier to listen to the right wing Tory/UKIP/Brexit party drivel about 'the immigrants on our beaches invading us' and use its racist ideology as an excuse to support their own racist views. Dangerous path to follow!

Yeah, but aren’t you just taking a similar simplistic approach from the other side?

For the low paid, with fewer qualifications, immigration has impacted them disproportionately.

And wage suppression is part of that.

Council housing and NHS is a logical supply and demand issue from their perspective.

Maybe if your friend paid more, he’d find more willing workers. But he didn’t need to, as immigrants are prepared to work for that salary, as it’s still likely a lot more than they’d get back in true country of origin.

But again, there’s nuance there too. I’d suggest that people who make the decision to leave their country for a better life are more likely to be committed to making that life decision a success, and so will be happier to work harder and longer compared to the kid from a council estate who just has to get a job to tread water.

Yes it’s easy to blame immigrants. But it’s a nonsense to ignore the impact on the uk’s lower classes, and so there is at least some logic to their perspective.

[fishfoodie]

If he does refuse to leave, he'll get dragged out the door, right?

If they want to leave without having to drag him out; they just need the SDNY to subpoena him to appear before a Grand Jury, & he'll be on a plane to somewhere that doesn't have an extradition treaty in short order.

[clive]

Just saw on the beeb, Trump supporters refusing to admit defeat, a few of them standing there in military uniform with semi automatic guns, what the name of holy fuck do they think they are gonna do.
The reported asked this lady what evidence she had of fraud, she reeled off a load of states, so the reporter said there is no evidence in any of those states and even if there were Biden has won with 10s of thousands of votes, it would make no difference, that's true the lady replied.

[stemoc]

this was recorded after the 2nd debate but fo some odd reason Bernie Sanders knew how it will play out its a shame he is not rhe Dem choice cause he is freakishly intelligent for someone who should probably be losing his memory by now

[Niegs]

Just saw on the beeb, Trump supporters refusing to admit defeat, a few of them standing there in military uniform with semi automatic guns, what the name of holy fuck do they think they are gonna do.
The reported asked this lady what evidence she had of fraud, she reeled off a load of states, so the reporter said there is no evidence in any of those states and even if there were Biden has won with 10s of thousands of votes, it would make no difference, that's true the lady replied.

Would be hilarious if that triggered such a revelation that she turned around and went home in that instant.

[Margin__Walker]

this was recorded after the 2nd debate but fo some odd reason Bernie Sanders knew how it will play out its a shame he is not rhe Dem choice cause he is freakishly intelligent for someone who should probably be losing his memory by now

That's not the only thing he'd be losing by now

[Hugo]

this was recorded after the 2nd debate but fo some odd reason Bernie Sanders knew how it will play out its a shame he is not rhe Dem choice cause he is freakishly intelligent for someone who should probably be losing his memory by now

Wow, he absolutely nailed it.

Sanders is pretty switched on and a decent bloke who seems to genuinely care about his country and the people in it.

[clive]

Just saw on the beeb, Trump supporters refusing to admit defeat, a few of them standing there in military uniform with semi automatic guns, what the name of holy fuck do they think they are gonna do.
The reported asked this lady what evidence she had of fraud, she reeled off a load of states, so the reporter said there is no evidence in any of those states and even if there were Biden has won with 10s of thousands of votes, it would make no difference, that's true the lady replied.

Would be hilarious if that triggered such a revelation that she turned around and went home in that instant.

Indeed sad thing is no matter how much factual truth you can place in front of these people, their mind cannot absorb it r act upon it, so much BS has been spoon-fed into them that they have like a mini seizure of realisation, their coping mechanism is to agree with what they just disagreed with.

It reminded me of that scene from Life Of Brian when Stan wants to be a woman and wants to have babies, only to be told he hasn't got a womb, then offered the right to have babies.

[Insane_Homer]

Donald Trump is the first US president since 1892 to lose the popular vote twice.

[Niegs]

[Hal Jordan]

this was recorded after the 2nd debate but fo some odd reason Bernie Sanders knew how it will play out its a shame he is not rhe Dem choice cause he is freakishly intelligent for someone who should probably be losing his memory by now

Wow, he absolutely nailed it.

Sanders is pretty switched on and a decent bloke who seems to genuinely care about his country and the people in it.

Yeh but socialist.

[Saint]

And in a surprise to absolutely no-one, Senate Republicans have suddenly remembered that they're in favour of fiscal conservatism - but are against tax rises.

[fishfoodie]

And in a surprise to absolutely no-one, Senate Republicans have suddenly remembered that they're in favour of fiscal conservatism - but are against tax rises.

Those damn Tax & Spend Democrats !!

Just look at the deficit !!!



& because the Orange Losser has locked itself in the WH, the minor issues of a pandemic thats killing over a thousand Americans a day; an economic crisis out of that, & the refusal of the GOP to work with the Democrats, means that there is still no stimulus package, & little prospect of one

But no; the important thing is made up voter fraud

[eldanielfire]

Funny how Biden is now expected to clean this shit up.

An adult has returned home to find that the kids have broken all the furniture and smeared shit all over the walls and they are going to have to clean it all up.

And in 4 years time, they'll just elect Ivanka, anyway.

Nah. The name Trump or anyone associated with it is going to be political poison in the future.

They are toast, and the carcase of the Trump empire is going to be picked clean by the sharks and vultures who are beginning to circle. And that is just his creditors, let alone the justice system who will be after him.

Really? Sounds to me his followers are as behind Trump as ever. I mean George Bush can go kill a million people in the middle east in an illegal war he never actually ends and fuck it up no end but his brother was initially one of the front runners for the Republican nom in 2016 and George seems to be loved now by all kinds of Dems.

The fact is Biden "returning to normal" and the masses finding nothing has really changed is only going to fuel the anti-establishment fire that brought Trump in.

[eldanielfire]

this was recorded after the 2nd debate but fo some odd reason Bernie Sanders knew how it will play out its a shame he is not rhe Dem choice cause he is freakishly intelligent for someone who should probably be losing his memory by now

Wow, he absolutely nailed it.

Sanders is pretty switched on and a decent bloke who seems to genuinely care about his country and the people in it.

Yeh but socialist.

It's funny how people drone on today that Socialist Bernie Sanders couldn't win, while ignoring that Trump not only won in 2016 but was damn close in 2020 when the supposed wisdom was he would be thrashed. Plus the Dems don't even have the senate.

[Un Pilier]

Wow, he absolutely nailed it.

Sanders is pretty switched on and a decent bloke who seems to genuinely care about his country and the people in it.

Yeh but socialist.

It's funny how people drone on today that Socialist Bernie Sanders couldn't win, while ignoring that Trump not only won in 2016 but was damn close in 2020 when the supposed wisdom was he would be thrashed. Plus the Dems don't even have the senate.

I’m not sure how Bernie could have won the rust belt. That was Biden’s USP and he did it.

[Saint]

Anyway, onto scorched earth. Turns out that Trump is refusing to authorise the post election transition phase. It doesn't concede anything at all, it should simply be the basics of "if I lose, this is continuity of power" but he's point blank refusing. It's the law of the USA to authorise this if there's any chance he's not won, and he's ignoring it.

I had thought that the only realistic damage he could inflict over the next few months was effectively not doing anything, but he's now actively working against the process

[Sandstorm]

Relax Saint, everything Donny touches turns to shit. He’ll fuck up this sit-in too.

[Rinkals]

Feels like you’re railing against people without critical thinking skills rather than intelligence.

It always amazes me that intelligent people believe in religion, but they do.

Same shit different topic for me.


Trump = the Pope et al.

Isn't critical thinking skills what we are talking about?

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't see how you can complain about being called a moron if the man you choose to represent the best of you is Donald J. Trump.

The only way we were talking about critical skills initially is if you think that intelligence and critical thinking are the same things.

For me, they aren’t.

Intelligence is innate.

Critical thinking is a skill set, that is learnt.

I gave an example of the religious.

It’s clear that very clever people can be religious, it’s just that they aren’t generally taught critical thinking as it’s apostasy to question that bullshit too much.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then.

I suppose it depends on your definition of intelligence, but for me, an important indicator of intelligence is in an understanding of cause and effect and without an ability to think critically, that's very difficult.

There are plenty of smart scientists who are able to remain devout Christians (or Muslims, for that matter) and I'd guess that it's their ability to use critical thinking that allows them to realise that the scriptures are not dogmatic absolutes. Which are probably not in their original language anyway.

Like Blake, I'm reluctant to label 70 million Americans as stupid, but it's a difficult conclusion to avoid.

In 2016, I would not have made such a judgement, but we've had four years of Trump, and if we can't see the cause and effect of his rule in that time, then God (if He exists) help us.

70 million.

FFS.

[Rinkals]

Relax Saint, everything Donny touches turns to shit. He’ll fuck up this sit-in too.

Much as I'd love to see him in orange pyjamas, I don't think that the imperative for the dignity of the office would allow that. Maybe Bill Barr?

As I understand it, three to four million dollars comes due shortly which may pose a problem for him.

However, 70 million is a fairly large number in terms of book sales...

[Enzedder]

I would suggest that a huge proportion of that 70 million would have been voting for the Republican Party and against Biden though.

They could have put up a goat and still got 70 million votes















Oh shit, that's right. They did

[Longshanks]

ABC news report that fireworks were seen all over London after Biden win.

[sturginho]

ABC news report that fireworks were seen all over London after Biden win.

As any local FB page in the UK will tell you, there have been fireworks all week

[Raggs]

ABC news report that fireworks were seen all over London after Biden win.

As any local FB page in the UK will tell you, there have been fireworks all week

Yeah, bonfire night has ended up spreading over a few days.

[Rinkals]

I have to say that I'll be very disappointed if Trump leaves the Whitehouse quietly.

I'm expecting a clown-car level of entertainment when the day comes.