Irelands starting 15 for tomorrow is 33% Southern Hemisphere born.

[Theflier]

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

Bloody heck, I didn't know it was that bad.

I mean to do the deacde, but I was far too depressed after 5 years

[Theflier]

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

Bloody heck, I didn't know it was that bad.

If you're going to stretch your indignation that far, don't forget to include Ali Price and Huw Jones who qualify on similar grounds to people on that list.

Probably the only proper project players on that list would be Kebble, Duhan, Nel and Strauss, i.e. signed with an eye on future qualification through residency to solve a selection headache. Johnson for instance qualifies on residency but is a completely different story - no-one thought he'd ever get as far as he has and he initially came over on a short-term squad-filler contract.

Skinner, Watson, Harris etc. - what are you on about? Unless you think anyone born and/or raised on the island of Great Britain should only automatically qualify for England.

I nearly included both, as in my opinion, both have a far stronger case for English representation.

I think all of those players have far stronger cases that they are not Scootish by doctrine. The blatant abuse of residency may be stronger than others, but none of them are Scots in my book
Skinners as English as they come, Harris is as English as they come, case could be made for Watson, though he's still English.

Tldr, all of those players would've represented another country had they thought they'd have the same chance of representation and salary as Scotland provides before playing for Scotland

[Theflier]

Shit I forgot Hugh Blake, a man who's first visit to Scotland ended in one sole cap, before ever representitng a Scottish team, then thrown to the heap.

He was literally selected, because he wasn't Scottish, which must mean he was better than who was.

Shameful

[eldanielfire]

So are you of the 'must be born in the country to represent the country' point of view?

So none of Frizzell, Naholo, Koroibete, Kuridrani, Kaino, Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Muliaina, Collins, Mehrtens, would have played for New Zealand? Pocock and Genia wouldn't have played for Oz? Mtawarira, Skinstadt, Mujati wouldn't have played for South Africa?

That is some conflation. I don't think many, if any of the players named where particularly Scottish in any way bar some technicality related to relatives or work. The running joke for years was you know if you go to the changing room at Twickenham and it's full of home county accents, you know you've entered the Scottish one.

But this is the problem isn't it - how do you define a particular nationality. You either set a hard line in the sand and people fall one side of it or the other, or you do some kind of touchy feely BS where someone has to meet someone else's view of being 'Scottish'. And if you choose the second one you get into never ending arguments. More than half of that list of names have Scottish parents or grandparents. If grandparents are set as the line, there's not a problem. I've never liked the three year rule, I think the change to 5 years is much needed as that mean you'll likely play half your professional career in country.

Even if there isn't exactly a clear and precise line in the sand, which makes some cases debatable there are obviously clear and egregious abuses of the nationality concept in sport (and elsewhere). A union collecting project players is one. Players born, elsewhere, culturally makes no connection with the nation they will represent via the various means and the country they represent is clearly a second choice based upon money related reasons is in most cases another. Grand Parent rules for a country that athlete is otherwise not connected to nor shows interest is one too.

[Slick]

Bloody heck, I didn't know it was that bad.

If you're going to stretch your indignation that far, don't forget to include Ali Price and Huw Jones who qualify on similar grounds to people on that list.

Probably the only proper project players on that list would be Kebble, Duhan, Nel and Strauss, i.e. signed with an eye on future qualification through residency to solve a selection headache. Johnson for instance qualifies on residency but is a completely different story - no-one thought he'd ever get as far as he has and he initially came over on a short-term squad-filler contract.

Skinner, Watson, Harris etc. - what are you on about? Unless you think anyone born and/or raised on the island of Great Britain should only automatically qualify for England.

I nearly included both, as in my opinion, both have a far stronger case for English representation.

I think all of those players have far stronger cases that they are not Scootish by doctrine. The blatant abuse of residency may be stronger than others, but none of them are Scots in my book
Skinners as English as they come, Harris is as English as they come, case could be made for Watson, though he's still English.

Tldr, all of those players would've represented another country had they thought they'd have the same chance of representation and salary as Scotland provides before playing for Scotland

I'm not particularly comfortable with the project player/residency thing, but while you have countries with vastly bigger player resources, such as England and NZ, taking advantage of it then you can hardly expect much, much smaller nations like Scotland not to play the game.

For the record I have zero problem with Watson, Skinner, Harris etc etc FFS did you see Skinner and his dad after his first cap?

[Hugo]

Any born and bred Englishman with Scottish parents or grandparents is an entirely legitimate Scotland cap in my estimation. In fact I would say that an Englishman with Scottish roots representing Scotland is as perfectly natural as him representing his country of birth.

In addition to the obvious inherited genes and the natural affinity that one feels for the country of their parents birth I would cite the Act of Union as the basis for this. The countries have been politically unified for over 300 years and because of that I don't think you can define Scottish national identity as narrowly as being born in Scotland. It is interwoven with and perhaps superceded by Britishness.

[Paddington Bear]

Thing is, nationality is complicated. My cousin was born in NZ to English parents, raised there until he was 15, has lived in England since. Beyond still somehow saying 'fush' I'd consider him as English as I am, and he would also identify as English. Of course if he were any good at rugby he'd be called a poach.
Project players a different story.

[Calculon]

I agree that the ones who are so called project players, but I don't see ie as anymore crap than the Grandparent rule, FFS if your greatgrandparents were visiting some country, and had a kid born there that makes him able to play for them, and I don't even like the parent rule much, it should be where you live or have lived the majority of your life. Grandparent rule still means someone can play for any of up to 7 countries!!

The grandparent rule is an absolute farce. It exists solely to benefit the Home Nations. It effectively means that almost every white male in NZ or Australia would be eligible for one of the Home Nations. I'm Samoan and half New Zealander and I'd be eligible for Scotland because my mum's Dad was part Scottish. Never been to Scotland or felt in any way Scottish but I could pull on a Scottish test jersey tomorrow if I was good enough. That's a farce.

Yeah, this really.

[Sandstorm]

Any born and bred Englishman with Scottish parents

There's no such thing. He's a Scot born in England.

[Yeeb]

Our imports are better than your imports

Change the word imports and the exact phrase was apparently used by a saffa player right after the last Rwc final

[JM2K6]

Forwards?

[Torquemada 1420]

The grandparent rule is an absolute farce. It exists solely to benefit the Home Nations. It effectively means that almost every white male in NZ or Australia would be eligible for one of the Home Nations. I'm Samoan and half New Zealander and I'd be eligible for Scotland because my mum's Dad was part Scottish. Never been to Scotland or felt in any way Scottish but I could pull on a Scottish test jersey tomorrow if I was good enough. That's a farce.

Agreed. But coming from the nation which routinely pillaged talent from PI nations after foraging around under the guise of schoolboy tours.........

Spoiler

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[Sandstorm]

Forwards?

Supplements?