Owens would have disallowed May's acrobat try

[Biffer]

No, that's silly. Forward momentum vs a completely different angle - May would not have landed on the defender. Unless you mean players trying to hurdle defenders in front of them, which, sure, I can see that (but not what happened here or in the other dive).

It's a possible danger to May himself, sure.

I take your point but it's not an exercise in a physics lab - that's why I said if it goes wrong.

OK but physics works the same way inside and out of the lab (unless you're Semi Radradra)

I can accept the argument that it could cause May some damage as being reason to legislate against this. Just not something that has a vanishingly small probability of occurring.

If the attacking player jumps while the tackler is attempting to tackle at the kind of height you'd expect to attempt to stop a try being scored, there's a big chance of a knee or boot to the head.

[JM2K6]

I take your point but it's not an exercise in a physics lab - that's why I said if it goes wrong.

OK but physics works the same way inside and out of the lab (unless you're Semi Radradra)

I can accept the argument that it could cause May some damage as being reason to legislate against this. Just not something that has a vanishingly small probability of occurring.

If the attacking player jumps while the tackler is attempting to tackle at the kind of height you'd expect to attempt to stop a try being scored, there's a big chance of a knee or boot to the head.

I seriously think we're talking different things here. Someone trying to stop a winger scoring in the corner is going to be coming from the side and the attacker is trying to leap over the tackler. I don't think there's a risk to the tackler there, the nature of the movements (and the relative head position) makes it unlikely (or no more likely than a normal tackle). Completely agree that in other parts of the field it's more dangerous and I'd happily have a law specifically preventing jumping into the tackle as a result - we'd just also need to make sure we don't lose the ability to dive for the line.

[sockwithaticket]

If the Italian tackler had managed to tackle May around his ankles when he jumped... and had caused May to flip over (A tip tackle?), losing the ball in the process... would the Italian tackler be sent off for a tip tackle.. and a penalty try given?

A win win for May really...

That's not even close to what constitutes a tip tackle, so no.

Well until you see it happen you don't know what it will look like. I can visualise it quite easily... May being tackled around his ankles and ending up losing ball while both legs shoot in the air from the impact of the tackle on his feet... and he ends up landing on his head...

The imagination.. it's a mighty fine thing...

We've definitely had people tilt quite spectacularly as a result of low tackles and the worst that happens is a penalty for a no arms tackle if the defending player committed that particular offence.

[Sandstorm]

A jumping winger is also likely to get his legs clipped and then land on his head in the in-goal area. What then? Red card for the tackler?

[JM2K6]

No-one's brought that up in this very thread!

[Grandpa]

That's not even close to what constitutes a tip tackle, so no.

Well until you see it happen you don't know what it will look like. I can visualise it quite easily... May being tackled around his ankles and ending up losing ball while both legs shoot in the air from the impact of the tackle on his feet... and he ends up landing on his head...

The imagination.. it's a mighty fine thing...

We've definitely had people tilt quite spectacularly as a result of low tackles and the worst that happens is a penalty for a no arms tackle if the defending player committed that particular offence.

Like this one here? From 2013 though.... but even here he is tackling him around the waste.. and was still carded...





https://www.rugbydump.com/news/tom-varn ... io-agulla/

This is the tackle that many are saying was very similar to what Toby Flood has been cited for, as shown in the previous post. In this instance Tom Varndell was yellow carded, while Flood was cited and will more than likely be suspended.

[Openside]

It would be good for World Rugby to make a call on this one way or the other before a referee makes it on the spot. And if they decide that what May did is OK they should clarify that it is legal to tackle a player as they do it - it really would be a bit much to make it impossible to tackle a player who did that.

(For the old timers, it reminds me a bit of Stimpson being tackled when he wasn't holding the ball against SA in 2000 - either he was in possession, in which case it was OK to tackle him, or he wasn't, in which case he'd knocked on, but it seemed quite unfair to suggest he should have been left alone to recover the ball and score. Likewise May's actions are either legal, in which case it must be OK to tackle him, or illegal, in which case he should be penalised.)

I remember that debate well and I totally agree with your summation.

[JM2K6]

Well until you see it happen you don't know what it will look like. I can visualise it quite easily... May being tackled around his ankles and ending up losing ball while both legs shoot in the air from the impact of the tackle on his feet... and he ends up landing on his head...

The imagination.. it's a mighty fine thing...

We've definitely had people tilt quite spectacularly as a result of low tackles and the worst that happens is a penalty for a no arms tackle if the defending player committed that particular offence.

Like this one here? From 2013 though.... but even here he is tackling him around the waste.. and was still carded...





https://www.rugbydump.com/news/tom-varn ... io-agulla/

This is the tackle that many are saying was very similar to what Toby Flood has been cited for, as shown in the previous post. In this instance Tom Varndell was yellow carded, while Flood was cited and will more than likely be suspended.

No, he means ankle/shin tackles that have launched players unintentionally, not ones where players have been lifted.

[Openside]

Which brings up another anomaly. When players chase back for a kick through and the defender falls upon the ball. Frequently, an attacker is penalised for not allowing the defender to stand up. But there is no incentive for the defender to do so. He wants to stall for as long as possible to allow any support to arrive.

Player on the floor has no rights to the ball. Arriving players, who stay on their feet and attempt to play the ball have all the rights to the ball. So player on the floor can't play the ball or prevent the person who's on his feet from playing the ball and must release it immediately or be penalised.

Player who drops on the ball must be allowed the chance to get back up. As soon as he starts to do so, you can of course tackle him/strip the ball etc.

I don't think that is true, you can target the ball immediately.

[Grandpa]

We've definitely had people tilt quite spectacularly as a result of low tackles and the worst that happens is a penalty for a no arms tackle if the defending player committed that particular offence.

Like this one here? From 2013 though.... but even here he is tackling him around the waste.. and was still carded...





https://www.rugbydump.com/news/tom-varn ... io-agulla/

This is the tackle that many are saying was very similar to what Toby Flood has been cited for, as shown in the previous post. In this instance Tom Varndell was yellow carded, while Flood was cited and will more than likely be suspended.

No, he means ankle/shin tackles that have launched players unintentionally, not ones where players have been lifted.

Unfortunately no video for that one so I don't know if he was lifted or whether he had jumped and then been inverted by the tackler...

But surely it's easy to enforce a law saying don't jump tackles... whether in the act of scoring a try or not?

[Sandstorm]

No-one's brought that up in this very thread!

Well then it's a good thing I'm here!

[sockwithaticket]

Well until you see it happen you don't know what it will look like. I can visualise it quite easily... May being tackled around his ankles and ending up losing ball while both legs shoot in the air from the impact of the tackle on his feet... and he ends up landing on his head...

The imagination.. it's a mighty fine thing...

We've definitely had people tilt quite spectacularly as a result of low tackles and the worst that happens is a penalty for a no arms tackle if the defending player committed that particular offence.

Like this one here? From 2013 though.... but even here he is tackling him around the waste.. and was still carded...





https://www.rugbydump.com/news/tom-varn ... io-agulla/

This is the tackle that many are saying was very similar to what Toby Flood has been cited for, as shown in the previous post. In this instance Tom Varndell was yellow carded, while Flood was cited and will more than likely be suspended.

That's a tip tackle where the tackler grips and actively tilts a player which is different to what you seemed to be describing in previous posts where the initial point of contact is the ankle(s), but with sufficient force or weirdness of angle that the 'tackled' player can't be gripped and is flipped up in the air with their legs going above the horizontal.

[Sandstorm]

[sockwithaticket]

Loig *shakes head*

While impressive, in Union that's definitely jumping to avoid a tackle and puts both defender and attacker at in a position of unnecessary risk. He only has to be marginally off for that to end badly.

[Woddy]

Just like what I was questioning a few posts above - not called for anything there, did not endanger the tackler at all. Would it be allowed in a seniors game?

[sockwithaticket]

Just like what I was questioning a few posts above - not called for anything there, did not endanger the tackler at all. Would it be allowed in a seniors game?

I'm not familiar with League's rules about jumping tackles, but that shouldn't be permitted at junior level in Union, let alone senior.

As I posted above, it looks cool, but it is a direct contravention of the rules and there's an awful lot of capacity for that to go badly wrong, injuring one or both of them.

[laurent]

That's a yellow in Proper rugby ...

If the tackler gets him that's so dangerous...

[JM2K6]

Like this one here? From 2013 though.... but even here he is tackling him around the waste.. and was still carded...





https://www.rugbydump.com/news/tom-varn ... io-agulla/

This is the tackle that many are saying was very similar to what Toby Flood has been cited for, as shown in the previous post. In this instance Tom Varndell was yellow carded, while Flood was cited and will more than likely be suspended.

No, he means ankle/shin tackles that have launched players unintentionally, not ones where players have been lifted.

Unfortunately no video for that one so I don't know if he was lifted or whether he had jumped and then been inverted by the tackler...

But surely it's easy to enforce a law saying don't jump tackles... whether in the act of scoring a try or not?

Then you have the massive grey area about diving to score, and probably ruling out quite a lot of tries & making it much harder to score in the corner. Hence the concern about unintended consequences here.

[Grandpa]

No, he means ankle/shin tackles that have launched players unintentionally, not ones where players have been lifted.

Unfortunately no video for that one so I don't know if he was lifted or whether he had jumped and then been inverted by the tackler...

But surely it's easy to enforce a law saying don't jump tackles... whether in the act of scoring a try or not?

Then you have the massive grey area about diving to score, and probably ruling out quite a lot of tries & making it much harder to score in the corner. Hence the concern about unintended consequences here.

And if we allow lifting in the lineout and to catch a ball at kick off... what about lifting players into the air to score tries.. you could probably sling-shot Aaron Smith 30 feet into the air... over the defence and into the try zone...

The sky is the limit...

[JM2K6]

Unfortunately no video for that one so I don't know if he was lifted or whether he had jumped and then been inverted by the tackler...

But surely it's easy to enforce a law saying don't jump tackles... whether in the act of scoring a try or not?

Then you have the massive grey area about diving to score, and probably ruling out quite a lot of tries & making it much harder to score in the corner. Hence the concern about unintended consequences here.

And if we allow lifting in the lineout and to catch a ball at kick off... what about lifting players into the air to score tries.. you could probably sling-shot Aaron Smith 30 feet into the air... over the defence and into the try zone...

The sky is the limit...

I genuinely want to see a team try that.

[Grandpa]

Then you have the massive grey area about diving to score, and probably ruling out quite a lot of tries & making it much harder to score in the corner. Hence the concern about unintended consequences here.

And if we allow lifting in the lineout and to catch a ball at kick off... what about lifting players into the air to score tries.. you could probably sling-shot Aaron Smith 30 feet into the air... over the defence and into the try zone...

The sky is the limit...

I genuinely want to see a team try that.

But with Owen Farrell...

[JM2K6]

And if we allow lifting in the lineout and to catch a ball at kick off... what about lifting players into the air to score tries.. you could probably sling-shot Aaron Smith 30 feet into the air... over the defence and into the try zone...

The sky is the limit...

I genuinely want to see a team try that.

But with Owen Farrell...

Oh no, I'd want people to try booting Farrell into the stands instead.

[average joe]

We've definitely had people tilt quite spectacularly as a result of low tackles and the worst that happens is a penalty for a no arms tackle if the defending player committed that particular offence.

Like this one here? From 2013 though.... but even here he is tackling him around the waste.. and was still carded...





https://www.rugbydump.com/news/tom-varn ... io-agulla/

This is the tackle that many are saying was very similar to what Toby Flood has been cited for, as shown in the previous post. In this instance Tom Varndell was yellow carded, while Flood was cited and will more than likely be suspended.

That's a tip tackle where the tackler grips and actively tilts a player which is different to what you seemed to be describing in previous posts where the initial point of contact is the ankle(s), but with sufficient force or weirdness of angle that the 'tackled' player can't be gripped and is flipped up in the air with their legs going above the horizontal.

How do you know from that picture that the tackler is actively tilting the player? He might have caught him in the air mid jump and momentum combined with gravity caused him to tilt over. Have you ever tried to hold up a 92kg person by their waist and legs?

[Mahoney]

Player on the floor has no rights to the ball. Arriving players, who stay on their feet and attempt to play the ball have all the rights to the ball. So player on the floor can't play the ball or prevent the person who's on his feet from playing the ball and must release it immediately or be penalised.

Player who drops on the ball must be allowed the chance to get back up. As soon as he starts to do so, you can of course tackle him/strip the ball etc.

I don't think that is true, you can target the ball immediately.

Agreed, as I understand it so long as you stay on your feet you can try and grab the ball immediately and they must release, there's no obligation to let them get up. You just can't fall on them.

The problem is that when you go for the ball they'll probably stand up holding it, which may not put you in the best position to tackle them (I recall Tuquiri using that opportunity to upend Lewsey over his back).

[GogLais]

No, he means ankle/shin tackles that have launched players unintentionally, not ones where players have been lifted.

Unfortunately no video for that one so I don't know if he was lifted or whether he had jumped and then been inverted by the tackler...

But surely it's easy to enforce a law saying don't jump tackles... whether in the act of scoring a try or not?

Then you have the massive grey area about diving to score, and probably ruling out quite a lot of tries & making it much harder to score in the corner. Hence the concern about unintended consequences here.

Yes but. The vast majority of diving tries don't become such a contentious issue.

[Mahoney]

This wouldn’t be such a contentious issue if it hadn’t been scored by England.

[Grandpa]

This wouldn’t be such a contentious issue if it hadn’t been scored by England.

England.. as the spiritual Trump of rugby just have to accept paranoia as part of the package...

[laurent]

This wouldn’t be such a contentious issue if it hadn’t been scored by England.

England.. as the spiritual Trump of rugby just have to accept paranoia as part of the package...

Better still They should not be allowed to score :P

[sockwithaticket]

Like this one here? From 2013 though.... but even here he is tackling him around the waste.. and was still carded...





https://www.rugbydump.com/news/tom-varn ... io-agulla/

This is the tackle that many are saying was very similar to what Toby Flood has been cited for, as shown in the previous post. In this instance Tom Varndell was yellow carded, while Flood was cited and will more than likely be suspended.

That's a tip tackle where the tackler grips and actively tilts a player which is different to what you seemed to be describing in previous posts where the initial point of contact is the ankle(s), but with sufficient force or weirdness of angle that the 'tackled' player can't be gripped and is flipped up in the air with their legs going above the horizontal.

How do you know from that picture that the tackler is actively tilting the player? He might have caught him in the air mid jump and momentum combined with gravity caused him to tilt over. Have you ever tried to hold up a 92kg person by their waist and legs?

Fine, active wasn't a useful word to throw in there because active or passive, tilting a player in a tackle like that is illegal and will be sanctioned. Or would if anyone still did it. but players seem to have managed to modify their behaviour on this.

[JM2K6]

Unfortunately no video for that one so I don't know if he was lifted or whether he had jumped and then been inverted by the tackler...

But surely it's easy to enforce a law saying don't jump tackles... whether in the act of scoring a try or not?

Then you have the massive grey area about diving to score, and probably ruling out quite a lot of tries & making it much harder to score in the corner. Hence the concern about unintended consequences here.

Yes but. The vast majority of diving tries don't become such a contentious issue.

Correct, they don't. If you start legislating against it, then they will!

[GogLais]

Then you have the massive grey area about diving to score, and probably ruling out quite a lot of tries & making it much harder to score in the corner. Hence the concern about unintended consequences here.

Yes but. The vast majority of diving tries don't become such a contentious issue.

Correct, they don't. If you start legislating against it, then they will!

I'm not suggesting any legislation, the possibilities in these situations are so varied that I think they can only be dealt with under a general reckless and dangerous provision. However, unless one subscribes to English paranoia there's something different about this one.

[shaggy]

There is no paranoia, just Owens and his inability to be objective when it involves English rugby players.

[JM2K6]

Yes but. The vast majority of diving tries don't become such a contentious issue.

Correct, they don't. If you start legislating against it, then they will!

I'm not suggesting any legislation, the possibilities in these situations are so varied that I think they can only be dealt with under a general reckless and dangerous provision. However, unless one subscribes to English paranoia there's something different about this one.

OK well the conversation you quoted was about legislation, so...

I accept there's something different about this one. It looked weird. It was still a guy leaping into the air to avoid being knocked into touch and scoring while airborne, but I accept the reasons why all of you ANYONE BUT ENGLAND types are banging on about it ;)

[Grandpa]

There is no paranoia, just Owens and his inability to be objective when it involves English rugby players.

Though it's not just Owens. It's all over social media... independent amateur adjudicators from around the globe,... Owens just happened to be a well known ref who mentioned it.

[shaggy]

And without him metaphorically stepping in from the sidelines with his flag raised it would likely have gone without much comment.

He has history, he cannot stop finding non-existent crimes by England and in this case he is a lightning rod for the rest of the rugby public with any firm of bias.

[sockwithaticket]

And without him metaphorically stepping in from the sidelines with his flag raised it would likely have gone without much comment.

He has history, he cannot stop finding non-existent crimes by England and in this case he is a lightning rod for the rest of the rugby public with any firm of bias.

I wish I could remember the exact game where he piped up from the touchline with some alleged foul play against England that eneded up being a penalty in our favour. Think it was an autumn game against Australia. It was an incident that certainly helped fuel my perception he officiates us more strictly. That plus the 1st test of the 2014 New Zealand tour where every dropped ball was apparently knock on even with contrary video evidence...

[Raggs]

And without him metaphorically stepping in from the sidelines with his flag raised it would likely have gone without much comment.

He has history, he cannot stop finding non-existent crimes by England and in this case he is a lightning rod for the rest of the rugby public with any firm of bias.

I wish I could remember the exact game where he piped up from the touchline with some alleged foul play against England that eneded up being a penalty in our favour. Think it was an autumn game against Australia. It was an incident that certainly helped fuel my perception he officiates us more strictly. That plus the 1st test of the 2014 New Zealand tour where every dropped ball was apparently knock on even with contrary video evidence...

That was hilarious :D, Burns had the ball hit his fingers and continue to roll behind him, got called as a knock on. He said something about it not mattering at the time :D.

[shaggy]

It was worse than that, he actually made up a law to cover himself. The ball went backwards but he explained because the players arms went forward it was a throw forward.

[Uncle fester]

Ref branch zoom meeting tonight.
Verdict: penalty Italy

Apparently world rugby will be issuing a statement of some sort on it.

[sturginho]

Ref branch zoom meeting tonight.
Verdict: penalty Italy

Apparently world rugby will be issuing a statement of some sort on it.

So really the score should have been 15-14 with Farrell in the bin instead of 27-11, we wuz robbed. Asterisks all round!