Uber business model fecked

[Biffer]

Uber have lost their third appeal about whether or not their drivers are their employees. This should screw them in so many ways. Not least that they now will owe about £5billion back VAT to HMRC. And in theory corporation tax.

Good. This business model beloved by silicon valley VCs of using capital to subsidise a company undercutting an old industry (while pretending it's all about new technology) is a fucking disgrace, and another tool that's used to concentrate capital assets in the hands of a small number of people. It's effectively asset stripping an industry sector.

[Blake]

Agreed. Hopefully the dominoes will start to topple soon.

[Glaston]

Uber have lost their third appeal about whether or not their drivers are their employees. This should screw them in so many ways. Not least that they now will owe about £5billion back VAT to HMRC. And in theory corporation tax.

Good. This business model beloved by silicon valley VCs of using capital to subsidise a company undercutting an old industry (while pretending it's all about new technology) is a fucking disgrace, and another tool that's used to concentrate capital assets in the hands of a small number of people. It's effectively asset stripping an industry sector.

So they arent exceedingly popular with their customers?
Providing a service that people prefer to the old model.

Never used them but people who do, seem to like them .

[sockwithaticket]

Uber have lost their third appeal about whether or not their drivers are their employees. This should screw them in so many ways. Not least that they now will owe about £5billion back VAT to HMRC. And in theory corporation tax.

Good. This business model beloved by silicon valley VCs of using capital to subsidise a company undercutting an old industry (while pretending it's all about new technology) is a fucking disgrace, and another tool that's used to concentrate capital assets in the hands of a small number of people. It's effectively asset stripping an industry sector.

So they arent exceedingly popular with their customers?
Providing a service that people prefer to the old model.

Never used them but people who do, seem to like them .

People primarily like the price. That price isn't supportable by the business model and includes fucking over those that work for the company. If you can't provide a service without screwing the workforce then you deserve to be shut down.

Consumers who aren't in solidarity with this need a healthy dose of class consciousness and to stop being so selfish.

It's true also that the app/digital infrastructure is more user friendly than the traditional alternatives, but, again, that doesn't trump exploitative labour practices. Pressure the traditional carriers to do better on that score.

This case has potential implications for other areas of the gig economy and I welcome it.

[TheNatalShark]

Are there any other current apps out there that genuinely operate under a model that the drivers are truly independent? That give the consumer the option of choosing driver and rate.

Just thought of the London black cab app Gett which I imagine operates in above manner.

I imagine issues re vetting drivers beyond large cities with black cab type licenses would make such an app/model unworkable

[robmatic]

While I don't have a tremendous amount of sympathy for taxi drivers as they aren't always exactly customer-focused or helpful, it's scandalous that a company was trying to treat workers like employees in almost every way except their employment rights.

[Biffer]

Uber have lost their third appeal about whether or not their drivers are their employees. This should screw them in so many ways. Not least that they now will owe about £5billion back VAT to HMRC. And in theory corporation tax.

Good. This business model beloved by silicon valley VCs of using capital to subsidise a company undercutting an old industry (while pretending it's all about new technology) is a fucking disgrace, and another tool that's used to concentrate capital assets in the hands of a small number of people. It's effectively asset stripping an industry sector.

So they arent exceedingly popular with their customers?
Providing a service that people prefer to the old model.

Never used them but people who do, seem to like them .

People primarily like the price. That price isn't supportable by the business model and includes fucking over those that work for the company. If you can't provide a service without screwing the workforce then you deserve to be shut down.

Consumers who aren't in solidarity with this need a healthy dose of class consciousness and to stop being so selfish.

It's true also that the app/digital infrastructure is more user friendly than the traditional alternatives, but, again, that doesn't trump exploitative labour practices. Pressure the traditional carriers to do better on that score.

This case has potential implications for other areas of the gig economy and I welcome it.

That, and the fact that it's a deliberate loss making model underwritten by massive capital to deliberately drive competition into the ground and establish a monopoly. Prices won't stay low after that.

[robmatic]

While I don't have a tremendous amount of sympathy for taxi drivers as they aren't always exactly customer-focused or helpful, it's scandalous that a company was trying to treat workers like employees in almost every way except their employment rights.

To be fair to Uber though, they are hardly the only example of this. Even local authorities enforce this fake self-employment on their workers.

[Biffer]

While I don't have a tremendous amount of sympathy for taxi drivers as they aren't always exactly customer-focused or helpful, it's scandalous that a company was trying to treat workers like employees in almost every way except their employment rights.

including the emphasis that they were 'their' drivers in the applications to transport for London around licensing.

Good info on this here

https://www.londonreconnections.com/201 ... al-crisis/

I like this from the original judgement of the employment tribunal in particular

“We have been struck,” the tribunal said, “by the remarkable lengths to which Uber has gone in order to compel agreement with its (perhaps we should say its lawyers’) description of itself.”

“In her evidence,” they continued, “Ms Bertram [Uber’s lawyer] chose her words with the utmost care. But in publicity material and correspondence those speaking Uber’s name have frequently expressed themselves in language which appears to be incompatible with the case before us.”

The tribunal had looked at the fundamental contradiction lurking at the heart of Uber and decided that they were having none of it. They were presented with ample evidence that Uber consistently referred to ‘our drivers’. The firm constantly told passengers that it was Uber who was carrying them around. Uber also seemed happy to claim to TfL and the London Assembly Transport Committee that it employed people too. Indeed the tribunal were presented with testimony from the same team of lawyers that had presented to the Transport Committee. In it Ms Bertram herself referred to Uber creating jobs and having drivers.

“To our considerable surprise,” The ruling says, “Ms Bertram attempted before us to dismiss this as a typographical error.”

[Sandstorm]

People primarily like the price.

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

[sockwithaticket]

People primarily like the price.

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

Well, you say that, but when they were first becoming a thing my city clicker mates were all in their 20s and couldn't stop going on about how much cheaper Uber was than the alternatives. People might self-justify by claiming ease of use, but setting prices that low and utilising capital to subsidise it as Biffer points out, (at least until there's no need to do so having routed the competition) isn't something Uber would be doing if they thought they could generate custom simply by having a more user friendly experience of booking.

[Sandstorm]

People primarily like the price.

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

Well, you say that, but when they were first becoming a thing my city clicker mates were all in their 20s and couldn't stop going on about how much cheaper Uber was than the alternatives. People might self-justify by claiming ease of use, but setting prices that low and utilising capital to subsidise it as Biffer points out, (at least until there's no need to do so having routed the competition) isn't something Uber would be doing if they thought they could generate custom simply by having a more user friendly experience of booking.

Of course we'll talk about the cheap prices.
However if you had to call up Uber, wait on hold and then get a surly tart tell you "there's no drivers in your area for the next 60 minutes" then only genuine cheap-skates would use it. The App is what makes Uber so brilliant.

Pity they are also greedy fucks.

[Fangle]

People primarily like the price.

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

I agree with this. Just open the app, give your destination and done. And for me, most of my drivers have been part-timers like students or even nurses going off shift.

Maybe the cab companies have caught up, but I don’t know the app to be used.

[robmatic]

People primarily like the price.

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

Well, you say that, but when they were first becoming a thing my city clicker mates were all in their 20s and couldn't stop going on about how much cheaper Uber was than the alternatives. People might self-justify by claiming ease of use, but setting prices that low and utilising capital to subsidise it as Biffer points out, (at least until there's no need to do so having routed the competition) isn't something Uber would be doing if they thought they could generate custom simply by having a more user friendly experience of booking.

Before Uber got banned in Istanbul, they were more expensive than the taxis but were wildly popular because they made it possible to get a ride without being scammed by some bandit with a taxi medallion, be harassed, insulted etc.
or have to negotiate to actually be picked up or taken to where you want to go.

[I like neeps]

The app is definitely good and would surely keep going to Uber when the price is the same as black cabs...

But they got whey they are as PE investors subsidised the journeys and tried to price established taxi firms out of business. They also undercut regulations around licencing and employment.

[Hugo]

Have never used it. I only use a cab about 3-4 times a year so taking a more expensive cab versus taking a cheaper uber is not going to make or break my finances, I can save that money elsewhere in my budget.

I started downloading the app years ago but it was asking for access to this and that and my contacts and such and I can't be arsed with all that just for the sake of saving a few quid on 4 cab trips a year.

[sorCrer]

Here in Johannesburg they are absolutely critical (well were before Covid). There is no after hours transport service so if you're visiting mates or going out to a restaurant or club you obviously need a designated driver. With Uber everywhere you can just hop on and off wherever you're going. I don't think I've ever waited more than 4 minutes. Safe, comfortable, very well priced. Just fucking works.

[Ymx]

People primarily like the price.

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

[GogLais]

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

Well, you say that, but when they were first becoming a thing my city clicker mates were all in their 20s and couldn't stop going on about how much cheaper Uber was than the alternatives. People might self-justify by claiming ease of use, but setting prices that low and utilising capital to subsidise it as Biffer points out, (at least until there's no need to do so having routed the competition) isn't something Uber would be doing if they thought they could generate custom simply by having a more user friendly experience of booking.

Before Uber got banned in Istanbul, they were more expensive than the taxis but were wildly popular because they made it possible to get a ride without being scammed by some bandit with a taxi medallion, be harassed, insulted etc.
or have to negotiate to actually be picked up or taken to where you want to go.

Reminds me of the taxi service (I use the word loosely) in Marrakesh. They fleeced me like a lamb going to the slaughter.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

People primarily like the price.

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

The number of cities I have been ripped off in by thieving bastard taxi drivers is significant. Arriving at a foreign airport, firing up the Uber app and knowing you will get where you want to go safely is very valuable.

Uber in London has also made black cabs expand their range. For the first couple of years using Uber, 90% of my journeys were from East End curry houses. There wasn't a black cab in sight, ever. Now they have discovered there's actually money to be made by heading to Tower Hamlets.

Also if you don't think that in many countries, particularly the USA, cab drivers aren't treated like dirt, you are naive.

[Torquemada 1420]

So they arent exceedingly popular with their customers?
Providing a service that people prefer to the old model.

Never used them but people who do, seem to like them .

That way there lie demons.
- Muckdonalds
- end of the book pricing agreement
- advertising TV

The masses will buy any sh*t that is cheap regardless of health, morality or economic sustainability.

[Yr Alban]

Uber isn’t a thing where I live, so I’ve never used it on my own account. But I have ridden in them a few times when others have used them, and they do seem very quick, convenient and simple to use. Everything regular city taxis generally aren’t.

Do I think they should get away with flouting employment law? No. But they are clearly providing a service that people like, so I hope they don’t go out of business as a result of this.

[Biffer]

Lot of people very confused between service model and business model here.

[Guy Smiley]

People primarily like the price.

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

I’d be surprised if that doesn’t apply to the vast majority of cities where Uber operates. I was in Perth when it launched. To see the smacking the taxi companies took was a pleasure long in coming and thoroughly deserved. Seeing them belatedly launch a similar app based service that ENSURES ACCOUNTABILITY OF SERVICE was simple poetic justice.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

People primarily like the price.

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

Yep.

I'm just impressed at how Uber managed to strong arm all those millions of exploited workers to give up their free time to drive people around all day.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Have to love Bendigo Taxis (huge right) for "welcoming" the chance to compete with Uber.

They talk a good game, but would be done over in a week with their rip off, multiple pricing long wait service.

They are protected by the council.

Cry me a river you chariot of cunts.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Can I just endorse whatever Sandstorm is posting?

Fifty years from now, men will still say this thread was his finest hour.

He's up 71-0 at the 60 minute mark.

Etc.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

So they arent exceedingly popular with their customers?
Providing a service that people prefer to the old model.

Never used them but people who do, seem to like them .

That way there lie demons.
- Muckdonalds
- end of the book pricing agreement
- advertising TV

The masses will buy any sh*t that is cheap regardless of health, morality or economic sustainability.

Snobbish, simplistic rubbish.

[MungoMan]

So they arent exceedingly popular with their customers?
Providing a service that people prefer to the old model.

Never used them but people who do, seem to like them .

That way there lie demons.
- Muckdonalds
- end of the book pricing agreement
- advertising TV

The masses will buy any sh*t that is cheap regardless of health, morality or economic sustainability.

Snobbish, simplistic rubbish.

Yep. Whenever I spot ‘the masses’ used in that way my reflexive response is fell8 me.

[Torquemada 1420]

So they arent exceedingly popular with their customers?
Providing a service that people prefer to the old model.

Never used them but people who do, seem to like them .

That way there lie demons.
- Muckdonalds
- end of the book pricing agreement
- advertising TV

The masses will buy any sh*t that is cheap regardless of health, morality or economic sustainability.

Snobbish, simplistic rubbish.

4 billion christians and muslims proves you wrong. Eternal life for no money at all: just a few immoral compromises.

[Openside]

Uber isn’t a thing where I live, so I’ve never used it on my own account. But I have ridden in them a few times when others have used them, and they do seem very quick, convenient and simple to use. Everything regular city taxis generally aren’t.

Do I think they should get away with flouting employment law? No. But they are clearly providing a service that people like, so I hope they don’t go out of business as a result of this.

Sums up my feelings.

The only time I have tried Uber they were wanting 7x normal rate. so we walked a mile to a bus stop and got on a bus going in vaguely the right direction. As it turned out bus dropped me 50 yds from MiL's front door(who we were saying with)

[Paddington Bear]

Uber is very user friendly and cheap, compared to cabbies who by and large think they’re doing you a favour and are not cheap.
That doesn’t mean they should be allowed to break the law though

[I like neeps]

Uber is very user friendly and cheap, compared to cabbies who by and large think they’re doing you a favour and are not cheap.
That doesn’t mean they should be allowed to break the law though

And they are cheap because they burned through VC cash to increase user numbers with the goal to reduce competition and hike the price up a later date.

They won't go out of business but they won't redesign transport either. They'll just become a taxi company with a really great app.

[Blackmac]

Nope, the technology and ease-of use is the #1 reason to use Uber (and similar services).

London Black Cab app only got off it's fucking arse when Uber and Co threatened their over-priced monopoly.

I have much more sympathy with Uber drivers than I do for taxi firms who didn't give a fuck for decades about their customers.

Well, you say that, but when they were first becoming a thing my city clicker mates were all in their 20s and couldn't stop going on about how much cheaper Uber was than the alternatives. People might self-justify by claiming ease of use, but setting prices that low and utilising capital to subsidise it as Biffer points out, (at least until there's no need to do so having routed the competition) isn't something Uber would be doing if they thought they could generate custom simply by having a more user friendly experience of booking.

Before Uber got banned in Istanbul, they were more expensive than the taxis but were wildly popular because they made it possible to get a ride without being scammed by some bandit with a taxi medallion, be harassed, insulted etc.
or have to negotiate to actually be picked up or taken to where you want to go.

Thats generally why I love it. Being able to arrive in a new country and not have to negotiate the usual taxi scam is brilliant.

[Biffer]

Well, you say that, but when they were first becoming a thing my city clicker mates were all in their 20s and couldn't stop going on about how much cheaper Uber was than the alternatives. People might self-justify by claiming ease of use, but setting prices that low and utilising capital to subsidise it as Biffer points out, (at least until there's no need to do so having routed the competition) isn't something Uber would be doing if they thought they could generate custom simply by having a more user friendly experience of booking.

Before Uber got banned in Istanbul, they were more expensive than the taxis but were wildly popular because they made it possible to get a ride without being scammed by some bandit with a taxi medallion, be harassed, insulted etc.
or have to negotiate to actually be picked up or taken to where you want to go.

Thats generally why I love it. Being able to arrive in a new country and not have to negotiate the usual taxi scam is brilliant.

Yep, service model is good. Business model is shithole, fucks over everyone in the long run. Workers by trampling all over their rights, the taxpayer by not fucking paying any, and users by establishing a monopoly and then later charging the arse out of you when they’re in control of supply.

Unfortunately the service model relies on the shithole business model.

[I like neeps]

I don't understand how Uber are in business - take punishing financial losses every year. 60bn last year, 80bn the year before. Never once made any money past VC funds pumping cash into them. Expect to be profitable this year? Seems unlikely.

[Biffer]

I don't understand how Uber are in business - take punishing financial losses every year. 60bn last year, 80bn the year before. Never once made any money past VC funds pumping cash into them. Expect to be profitable this year? Seems unlikely.

Point is to use capital to push competition out of business then hike prices. SC judgement really knocks them back, in theory.

[I like neeps]

I don't understand how Uber are in business - take punishing financial losses every year. 60bn last year, 80bn the year before. Never once made any money past VC funds pumping cash into them. Expect to be profitable this year? Seems unlikely.

Point is to use capital to push competition out of business then hike prices. SC judgement really knocks them back, in theory.

Exploitation of workers isn't the worst part of the business model though. As others have posted other taxi firms aren't sunshine and lollipops.

The real worry is VC investment created huge, unprofitable companies which distort markets completely.

[Lemoentjie]

Service - very good
Business model - horrible

[Ymx]

Service - very good
Business model - horrible

No one is forced to use an Uber or be an Uber driver