6 nations 2021 Scrum down in the lockdown

[Torquemada 1420]

Is anyone really surprised about Farrell getting on the wrong side of the ref given how much of a petulant duck he's been recently?

If you pick a dickhead as your captain, you're going to get shitty decisions from the ref. Way of the world.

He didn’t get on the wrong side of him, he was following the ref’s instructions, the ref then let Biggar play.

Plenty of press commentary on how Farrell p*sses off refs. You are living in the same dream world as Eddie methinks.

If he was captaining France, I'd be furious (setting aside him being selected at all and being a Northern Mungo Monkey to boot) at his management of officials. In addition, his sh*t attitude and behaviour appears to permeate through to his team's ill discipline.

[Lemoentjie]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

[ASMO]

Is anyone really surprised about Farrell getting on the wrong side of the ref given how much of a petulant duck he's been recently?

If you pick a dickhead as your captain, you're going to get shitty decisions from the ref. Way of the world.

He didn’t get on the wrong side of him, he was following the ref’s instructions, the ref then let Biggar play.

Plenty of press commentary on how Farrell p*sses off refs. You are living in the same dream world as Eddie methinks.

If he was captaining France, I'd be furious (setting aside him being selected at all and being a Northern Mungo Monkey to boot) at his management of officials. In addition, his sh*t attitude and behaviour appears to permeate through to his team's ill discipline.

Don't disagree with that analysis, he is a terrible terrible captain, petulant and totally unable to control the team. Any half decent captain would have read the riot act to them about the number of penalties they are giving away, stupid dumb penalties, he did fuck all except whine to the referee.

[Ymx]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

[Paddington Bear]

The two decisions don’t excuse England’s appalling discipline, I fully agree with that

[Openside]

I’m the one saying it’s a knock on OS

Apols, someone must have left a quote in the wrong place...it seemed to suggest you were back the on field decision. Or I have misinterpreted in a hurry (always possible)

I was surprised to see a sensible Surrey man talking gobbledygook

[Openside]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

It was nothing, his shoulder bounced off the ball upwards it was absolutely fine ...

[Slick]

When England did start throwing the ball about, particularly at the end of the 2nd half, they looked excellent and almost unplayable. Silly errors lost the momentum but they looked a much better team playing like that

[Ymx]

I’m not sure this fully holds - the entire flow of the game gets changed by those two decisions and forces us to play 50 minutes + of catch up. Beyond that though our discipline is appalling and it’s hard to win games getting pinged off the park.

Still can’t get over Jiffy giggling and trying to award the ref MoM

Think he said it to alleviate the situation in the room, with the Guscott and Johnson outrage.

I don’t think he did. The outrage is justifiable. Pretending that the loss is solely about the ref would be wrong, but those are two shocking calls for 14 points. Shouldn’t see that at test level. Jones and Farrell did remarkably well not to pile in afterwards

He was certainly making light of it.

[Ymx]

I’m the one saying it’s a knock on OS

Apols, someone must have left a quote in the wrong place...it seemed to suggest you were back the on field decision. Or I have misinterpreted in a hurry (always possible)

I was surprised to see a sensible Surrey man talking gobbledygook

Speaking of the local area. Don’t know about you but the sun of last couple of days was both great and a killer. Golf clubs were twitching, and I’ve completely forgotten how bad I am at golf.

[GogLais]

The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.

[Blackmac]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

Agreed, they said the tackle rode up to hit his face and seemed to ignore that it started too bloody high in the first place.

[Ymx]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

Agreed, they said the tackle rode up to hit his face and seemed to ignore that it started too bloody high in the first place.

It may have grazed his arm on the way but just hit him smack on the chin with force rocking his head back was my take on it.

I think it was an apologetic let off for the 2 odd calls in the first half.

[assfly]

The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.

Agreed. And Biggar deserves credit for his response. England were fully expecting a kick for the posts or lineout. Most team would have struggled to have adjusted when Biggar tapped immediately after time on was called. Let's not forget Ford was close enough to compete too.

[JM2K6]

The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.

Water carriers for Wales, too, iirc.

20 seconds is plenty of time to get the message across. It's quite tight to get the players in, give them a chat, then get them to go back to their positions, though, which is the problem.

I usually have zero sympathy in these situations, so I'm not gonna pretend to be angry about it, but I can see Farrell's point (and Johnson's - it's his reaction more than Farrell's that explains just how bizarrely refereed this was)

[JM2K6]

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

Agreed, they said the tackle rode up to hit his face and seemed to ignore that it started too bloody high in the first place.

It may have grazed his arm on the way but just hit him smack on the chin with force rocking his head back was my take on it.

I think it was an apologetic let off for the 2 odd calls in the first half.

It was a chest high tackle that knocked the player back, the shoulder bounced off the ball and grazed the chin.

[JM2K6]

The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.

Agreed. And Biggar deserves credit for his response. England were fully expecting a kick for the posts or lineout. Most team would have struggled to have adjusted when Biggar tapped immediately after time on was called. Let's not forget Ford was close enough to compete too.

No he wasn't. He was close enough to make a tackle after the player caught it. Never close enough to compete.

[sockwithaticket]

Anyone would be seething if that first try was scored against them in that manner. If the ref takes time off and sends a captain away to speak to their team it's customary to tell them when the game's about to resume and give them a few seconds to sort themselves out before starting the clock again. Not stand miles away and only tell the opposition that time's back on.

It may be ok by the letter of the law, but established precedent counts for a lot in rugby.

[Deveron Boy]

Re poss yellow cards yesterday should have had one for cumulative pens

[GogLais]

Anyone would be seething if that first try was scored against them in that manner. If the ref takes time off and sends a captain away to speak to their team it's customary to tell them when the game's about to resume and give them a few seconds to sort themselves out before starting the clock again. Not stand miles away and only tell the opposition that time's back on.

It may be ok by the letter of the law, but established precedent counts for a lot in rugby.

Well speaking of precedence - every time I recall seeing a captain pass on a warning he’s walked towards the team, waved his arms down and literally had a quick word. I don’t remember a team huddling together in that situation with two of the coaching staff. The object of the exercise is to pass on a warning, not to have a coaching meeting.

[JM2K6]

That's just silly. There's been countless occasions of teams being called in to pass on the refs instructions.

[Saint]

The pitch at the Gardens looks like a bowling green. Beautiful

[GogLais]

I can only quote David Walsh in the Sunday Times - when the referee suggested to Farrell that he should have a word with his team, he wasn’t inviting him to have a water break, nor did he ask the England captain to come back to him with word on when his team were ready to recommence.

[JM2K6]

I can only quote David Walsh in the Sunday Times - when the referee suggested to Farrell that he should have a word with his team, he wasn’t inviting him to have a water break, nor did he ask the England captain to come back to him with word on when his team were ready to recommence.

Having just looked at it again myself, nor was it the 20 seconds you've been claiming. I don't think you're looking at this even remotely objectively.

There were water carriers from both sides on the pitch. As the ref puts time off, a welsh player is literally taking a bottle off the welsh water carrier a few yards behind Biggar, and another is chatting to the welsh backs. As he puts time on, the two welsh ones are still near players, of of them giving water to two players.

It's a stupid thing to use to attack England.

edit:

[Torquemada 1420]

Don't disagree with that analysis, he is a terrible terrible captain, petulant and totally unable to control the team. Any half decent captain would have read the riot act to them about the number of penalties they are giving away, stupid dumb penalties, he did fuck all except whine to the referee.

More commentary along those lines

With regard to Farrell, the interview exists in the context of people questioning his leadership style in general. He is a rugby player and person with a lot of impressive qualities, but communication with referees is not always apparent among them. He is a lead-by-example skipper, which is fine, but part of the captain’s role these days is to get the referee onside, and it was clear from his interactions with Pascal Gaüzère that he is a million miles away from the referee-whispering qualities of, say, Sam Warburton.

in an article on the online abuse by English supporters to the beeb interviewer.

[Torquemada 1420]

The two decisions don’t excuse England’s appalling discipline, I fully agree with that

Only 2 decisions against you (one of which wasn't law anyway and the other one remains contentious).

I'm weeping for your injustices. Weeping I tells ya along with the rest of the world.

How about Itoje escaping yellow for 5 pens?

[Ymx]

Agreed, they said the tackle rode up to hit his face and seemed to ignore that it started too bloody high in the first place.

It may have grazed his arm on the way but just hit him smack on the chin with force rocking his head back was my take on it.

I think it was an apologetic let off for the 2 odd calls in the first half.

It was a chest high tackle that knocked the player back, the shoulder bounced off the ball and grazed the chin.

Head knocked back at the impact. High dangerous tackle connected with force. Or are you changing your stance on high tackles for this one?

[Ymx]

Anyone would be seething if that first try was scored against them in that manner. If the ref takes time off and sends a captain away to speak to their team it's customary to tell them when the game's about to resume and give them a few seconds to sort themselves out before starting the clock again. Not stand miles away and only tell the opposition that time's back on.

It may be ok by the letter of the law, but established precedent counts for a lot in rugby.

What was that previous well known account of this? Talking to team when quick tap taken. For some reason I recall Ireland somehow involved.

[JM2K6]

It may have grazed his arm on the way but just hit him smack on the chin with force rocking his head back was my take on it.

I think it was an apologetic let off for the 2 odd calls in the first half.

It was a chest high tackle that knocked the player back, the shoulder bounced off the ball and grazed the chin.

Head knocked back at the impact. High dangerous tackle connected with force. Or are you changing your stance on high tackles for this one?

I'm saying what happened. Players getting knocked back with a chest tackle isn't high or dangerous, though I accept he should tackle lower or risk it going wrong - lowering the tackle height is important.

Players suffering from collisions like that is less about tackle height and more about the dangers of modern rugby in terms of the collisions being simply too great and the brain still suffering even if the head doesn't get hit - it's a different discussion. We currently aren't legislating against player size or anything, so there's not much to discuss there. Agreed he did clip the jaw, just about, but after the main big collision and with all the force going upwards (hence grazing).

Does that make sense? I'm not looking to excuse anything here. And I'm happy to revisit if someone can remind me roughly what time it happened, so I can look at it again.

[GogLais]

I can only quote David Walsh in the Sunday Times - when the referee suggested to Farrell that he should have a word with his team, he wasn’t inviting him to have a water break, nor did he ask the England captain to come back to him with word on when his team were ready to recommence.

Having just looked at it again myself, nor was it the 20 seconds you've been claiming. I don't think you're looking at this even remotely objectively.

There were water carriers from both sides on the pitch. As the ref puts time off, a welsh player is literally taking a bottle off the welsh water carrier a few yards behind Biggar, and another is chatting to the welsh backs. As he puts time on, the two welsh ones are still near players, of of them giving water to two players.

It's a stupid thing to use to attack England.

edit:

The point I’m trying to make about water carriers is that it suggests that England were treating it as more than a brief stoppage for a captain to pass on a warning to his team. Wales may have had them on the pitch as well but they weren’t the ones defending the penalty.

[JM2K6]

I can only quote David Walsh in the Sunday Times - when the referee suggested to Farrell that he should have a word with his team, he wasn’t inviting him to have a water break, nor did he ask the England captain to come back to him with word on when his team were ready to recommence.

Having just looked at it again myself, nor was it the 20 seconds you've been claiming. I don't think you're looking at this even remotely objectively.

There were water carriers from both sides on the pitch. As the ref puts time off, a welsh player is literally taking a bottle off the welsh water carrier a few yards behind Biggar, and another is chatting to the welsh backs. As he puts time on, the two welsh ones are still near players, of of them giving water to two players.

It's a stupid thing to use to attack England.

edit:

The point I’m trying to make about water carriers is that it suggests that England were treating it as more than a brief stoppage for a captain to pass on a warning to his team. Wales may have had them on the pitch as well but they weren’t the ones defending the penalty.

But that makes no sense. Water carriers aren't called on by the team. They come on when there's a stoppage. There was a stoppage.

The point is that England came together because the referee requested the captain talk to his team. The referee, aware that Wales wanted to go quickly, chose to put time back on when he could see that England had only just stopped talking, giving Wales a big advantage. That's what people are angry about. The ref caused England to not be in position in the first place - it's not right that he didn't give them the chance after doing what he asked to go back to a defensive position.

[sockwithaticket]

Ian Tempest has just called time off in the Saints - Bath game, told Priestland to go talk to his team (a huddle is formed) and then only put time back on having established everyone's ready to resume play which is how refs typically do this sort of thing.

[Lemoentjie]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

Itoje gave 5 penalties by himself. Definitely a YC.

[Ymx]

It was a chest high tackle that knocked the player back, the shoulder bounced off the ball and grazed the chin.

Head knocked back at the impact. High dangerous tackle connected with force. Or are you changing your stance on high tackles for this one?

I'm saying what happened. Players getting knocked back with a chest tackle isn't high or dangerous, though I accept he should tackle lower or risk it going wrong - lowering the tackle height is important.

Players suffering from collisions like that is less about tackle height and more about the dangers of modern rugby in terms of the collisions being simply too great and the brain still suffering even if the head doesn't get hit - it's a different discussion. We currently aren't legislating against player size or anything, so there's not much to discuss there. Agreed he did clip the jaw, just about, but after the main big collision and with all the force going upwards (hence grazing).

Does that make sense? I'm not looking to excuse anything here. And I'm happy to revisit if someone can remind me roughly what time it happened, so I can look at it again.

Haven’t looked again. But found this.

63:30 match time.

[GogLais]

Having just looked at it again myself, nor was it the 20 seconds you've been claiming. I don't think you're looking at this even remotely objectively.

There were water carriers from both sides on the pitch. As the ref puts time off, a welsh player is literally taking a bottle off the welsh water carrier a few yards behind Biggar, and another is chatting to the welsh backs. As he puts time on, the two welsh ones are still near players, of of them giving water to two players.

It's a stupid thing to use to attack England.

edit:

The point I’m trying to make about water carriers is that it suggests that England were treating it as more than a brief stoppage for a captain to pass on a warning to his team. Wales may have had them on the pitch as well but they weren’t the ones defending the penalty.

But that makes no sense. Water carriers aren't called on by the team. They come on when there's a stoppage. There was a stoppage.

The point is that England came together because the referee requested the captain talk to his team. The referee, aware that Wales wanted to go quickly, chose to put time back on when he could see that England had only just stopped talking, giving Wales a big advantage. That's what people are angry about. The ref caused England to not be in position in the first place - it's not right that he didn't give them the chance after doing what he asked to go back to a defensive position.

There was indeed a stoppage but it was for a specific purpose - warning his team. As an aside I don’t see the point of these warnings - if a team or a captain doesn’t realise they’re infringing too much then they have a problem anyway.

[Ymx]

1:19:00

Mute the useless commentary if you can

[Paddington Bear]

Have to say am starting to see the Quitaly point of view. Feel like their match is cheating us of a game each weekend, barely watched the second half yesterday.

Possible alternatives:
- South Africa. Can see it and obviously the rugby would be top draw. Not sure about the travel.
- Georgia. Nope. Worse than Italy
- Fiji/Japan. If either played in the 6N for 5 years they’d have better records than Italy. Fiji playing their home games in a booze adjacent British city (Newcastle came to mind) would actually be quite interesting

[GogLais]

Have to say am starting to see the Quitaly point of view. Feel like their match is cheating us of a game each weekend, barely watched the second half yesterday.

Possible alternatives:
- South Africa. Can see it and obviously the rugby would be top draw. Not sure about the travel.
- Georgia. Nope. Worse than Italy
- Fiji/Japan. If either played in the 6N for 5 years they’d have better records than Italy. Fiji playing their home games in a booze adjacent British city (Newcastle came to mind) would actually be quite interesting

Indeed. First match I’ve switched off at half time for God knows how long.

[JM2K6]

1:19:00

Mute the useless commentary if you can

Ta. Am enjoying a sneaky picnic in what remains of the sun, will check later

[Torquemada 1420]

Have to say am starting to see the Quitaly point of view. Feel like their match is cheating us of a game each weekend, barely watched the second half yesterday.

Possible alternatives:
- South Africa. Can see it and obviously the rugby would be top draw. Not sure about the travel.
- Georgia. Nope. Worse than Italy
- Fiji/Japan. If either played in the 6N for 5 years they’d have better records than Italy. Fiji playing their home games in a booze adjacent British city (Newcastle came to mind) would actually be quite interesting

I feel for Italy at the moment. I honestly think they are a lot better (absolutely) than they've been for a very long time and have some promising youngsters coming through. Trouble is ALL the rest of the 6N is at a higher (relative) standard than ever before to them. The Sweaties are a serious side. Wales' demise appears to have been heralded early. France have given up flaky (for now). Ireland are limited but friggin' hard to beat. Eng always going to be too good for Italy (only 6N side never to have lost to them?).

It's a tough gig and I don't think anyone else would fare better. Italy would beat Georgia. Options therefore are
- go back to 5N
- try and liven it up with relegation and a properly structured 2nd tier comp which, BTW, I would like to see.

Oh. And sadly, I can't be arsed watching them getting bummed game after game either.