White privilege and other matters

[Paddington Bear]

Fwiw the belief that you need to be white to be English has collapsed over the last 30 years and most polls have fewer than 10% believing it, largely concentrated in the 70+ age group

[shaggy]

Yeah, but it's not only racist English people who think of "English" as being an ethnic group as the caller does. I can't remember the figures but I saw the results of a survey where I think the majority of non white British people think of themselves as British rather than English, and that has to do with their perception of "English" as an ethnic group to which they do not belong.

What about the white people who consider themselves as British and not English?

What about them?

Well you seem to have the inside line on this so thought you might add some more? Link perhaps, or other examples of where other groups consider themselves as not English to help us understand the point better?

[Ymx]

BLM and others demanding it be removed.

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/black-lives ... ort-950970

Black Lives Matter UK tells Boris Johnson to ‘immediately withdraw’ race report

In a letter to Mr Johnson, organisations including campaigning groups Charity So White and Liberty said the report ‘whitewashes the daily challenges faced by black and minoritised communities’

Campaigners are calling on Prime Minister Boris Johnson to withdraw a report into racism, and instead enact recommendations from multiple previous inquiries, to tackle race equality in Britain in 2021.

Groups including Black Lives Matter UK say the Government-commissioned report has “provoked national indignation”, whilst campaigner Doreen Lawrence called it a “green light for racists”.

In an open letter to Mr Johnson, organisations said the report “whitewashes the daily challenges faced by black and minoritised communities”.

Don’t know where to start with this one.

Demanding it to be burned/cancelled
Green light for racists
Whitewash

[Random1]

It’ll be interesting to see what they’ll do now. I would say they must have planned for this reaction, but this lot don’t seem great at planning.

I’d love to see a proper debate on it. An IQsquared event or something like that.

[Random1]

Interesting guardian article. https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... -in-the-uk

Drawing a focus on ‘equity’ rather than ‘equality’.

Equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

Genuinely don’t know how I feel about the idea that we must encourage black people to enter the Sciences because a black scientist would bring a different perspective on the subject compared to white scientists and therefore bring better results.

The only thing I can think of being different would be in health; where more BAME people researching health inequalities may be a really good idea. But I struggle to see how a black person would be any different to a white person in chemistry or physics.

Anyone got any thoughts?

[notfatcat]

I think all the efforts should be on the unfairness around things like promotion mentioned in the article, assuming there is actual unfairness. Anyone can take some stats and interpret them any way they want to.

As for the 'diversity is our strength' type of stuff - has anyone ever asked why? And how much diversity do we need to be at our strongest? Can there be too much diversity, or can there be the wrong type of diversity? Should we make sure that the proportion of Chinese vets doesn't increase or decrease now that it is proportional to the Chinese population in the UK? Should we be concerned that 75% of vets under 40 are women compared to 58% of all ages? Something is going wrong in the vet world in this country. Obviously blacks are very under-represented amongst vets - how can we force them to become vets, or maybe even encourage them? How can we get more men to become vets?

Lots of questions but I don't have many answers. Tricky thing diversity, and it's harder to navigate when the overwhelming issue is always one or both of too many whites and too many men.

My guess is that while we live through these times where people are utterly obsessed with race (and gender), and make generalised assumptions about people based on their race (and gender), and automatically treat minorities like they're oppressed, then people of different races will view their race as extremely important in defining who they are; and I don't think that is conducive to shoehorning different races into different vocations.

Random question - has anyone on here ever even once had an inkling of a thought that someone of a different race or gender wasn't able to represent them (say if they're a politician or in some other position of influence or power), because of the difference in race or gender?

[Openside]

I think all the efforts should be on the unfairness around things like promotion mentioned in the article, assuming there is actual unfairness. Anyone can take some stats and interpret them any way they want to.

As for the 'diversity is our strength' type of stuff - has anyone ever asked why? And how much diversity do we need to be at our strongest? Can there be too much diversity, or can there be the wrong type of diversity? Should we make sure that the proportion of Chinese vets doesn't increase or decrease now that it is proportional to the Chinese population in the UK? Should we be concerned that 75% of vets under 40 are women compared to 58% of all ages? Something is going wrong in the vet world in this country. Obviously blacks are very under-represented amongst vets - how can we force them to become vets, or maybe even encourage them? How can we get more men to become vets?

Lots of questions but I don't have many answers. Tricky thing diversity, and it's harder to navigate when the overwhelming issue is always one or both of too many whites and too many men.

My guess is that while we live through these times where people are utterly obsessed with race (and gender), and make generalised assumptions about people based on their race (and gender), and automatically treat minorities like they're oppressed, then people of different races will view their race as extremely important in defining who they are; and I don't think that is conducive to shoehorning different races into different vocations.

Random question - has anyone on here ever even once had an inkling of a thought that someone of a different race or gender wasn't able to represent them (say if they're a politician or in some other position of influence or power), because of the difference in race or gender?

Interesting and thought provoking post.

[Random1]

Interesting guardian article. https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... -in-the-uk

Drawing a focus on ‘equity’ rather than ‘equality’.

Equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

Genuinely don’t know how I feel about the idea that we must encourage black people to enter the Sciences because a black scientist would bring a different perspective on the subject compared to white scientists and therefore bring better results.

The only thing I can think of being different would be in health; where more BAME people researching health inequalities may be a really good idea. But I struggle to see how a black person would be any different to a white person in chemistry or physics.

Anyone got any thoughts?

Second article on the lack of diversity in science.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ce-problem

This one has the classic ‘lived experience’ evidence.

[Random1]

I think all the efforts should be on the unfairness around things like promotion mentioned in the article, assuming there is actual unfairness. Anyone can take some stats and interpret them any way they want to.

As for the 'diversity is our strength' type of stuff - has anyone ever asked why? And how much diversity do we need to be at our strongest? Can there be too much diversity, or can there be the wrong type of diversity? Should we make sure that the proportion of Chinese vets doesn't increase or decrease now that it is proportional to the Chinese population in the UK? Should we be concerned that 75% of vets under 40 are women compared to 58% of all ages? Something is going wrong in the vet world in this country. Obviously blacks are very under-represented amongst vets - how can we force them to become vets, or maybe even encourage them? How can we get more men to become vets?

Lots of questions but I don't have many answers. Tricky thing diversity, and it's harder to navigate when the overwhelming issue is always one or both of too many whites and too many men.

My guess is that while we live through these times where people are utterly obsessed with race (and gender), and make generalised assumptions about people based on their race (and gender), and automatically treat minorities like they're oppressed, then people of different races will view their race as extremely important in defining who they are; and I don't think that is conducive to shoehorning different races into different vocations.

Random question - has anyone on here ever even once had an inkling of a thought that someone of a different race or gender wasn't able to represent them (say if they're a politician or in some other position of influence or power), because of the difference in race or gender?

Your random question isn’t something I’ve thought of before. To answer it; no, I don’t feel a woman or other race is unable to represent me.

I don’t care what category they fall in, as long as they are smart, dedicated and have a moral compass pointing somewhere near the same as mine.

[Torquemada 1420]

As for the 'diversity is our strength' type of stuff - has anyone ever asked why? And how much diversity do we need to be at our strongest? Can there be too much diversity, or can there be the wrong type of diversity? Should we make sure that the proportion of Chinese vets doesn't increase or decrease now that it is proportional to the Chinese population in the UK? Should we be concerned that 75% of vets under 40 are women compared to 58% of all ages? Something is going wrong in the vet world in this country. Obviously blacks are very under-represented amongst vets - how can we force them to become vets, or maybe even encourage them? How can we get more men to become vets?

Diversity for diversity sake (e.g. quotas) is nonsense. Worse: an insult or even counter productive. A 7 stone, 5ft woman is not going to make a good fireman.

All we should strive for is a broad equality of opportunity in order that those who make the choice to embark upon a path (e.g. a black kid wants to be a vet) has as reasonable shot at it as the white kid next door.



Trouble is embedded in this is the wider problem of class/wealth which correlates (too) highly with colour.

Ironic with all the gushing at the moment, this gulf is best personified by the royals.

[notfatcat]

Second article on the lack of diversity in science.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ce-problem

This one has the classic ‘lived experience’ evidence.

Yet again, these people seem to think it should be the norm in any society for everything, and I mean everything, to be ordered in accordance with racial population stats. Plus more assertions with no evidence.

[Random1]

Second article on the lack of diversity in science.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ce-problem

This one has the classic ‘lived experience’ evidence.

Yet again, these people seem to think it should be the norm in any society for everything, and I mean everything, to be ordered in accordance with racial population stats. Plus more assertions with no evidence.

Yeah, it’s the folly of equity rather than equality. The idea that institutions should be representative is nice in theory, but in practice, it has obvious flaws.

Having said that, a targeted approach to increasing representation could very well be a good thing. I’ve mentioned health studies before - there could easily be a case for us studying health differences between all sorts of demographics. We have an issue with most health studies being conducted on and by men. Leaving women under represented, hence Women’s health could really do with some more research scientists to think differently.

But when it comes to physics and chemistry, I don’t understand the argument.

[Glaston]

When did the Chinese become "persons of colour" ?

quoting the BBC here..
BAFTA Awards
" Zhao's victory means she is the first woman of colour to pick up the prize"

[Sandstorm]

Interesting guardian article. https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... -in-the-uk

Drawing a focus on ‘equity’ rather than ‘equality’.

Equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

Genuinely don’t know how I feel about the idea that we must encourage black people to enter the Sciences because a black scientist would bring a different perspective on the subject compared to white scientists and therefore bring better results.

The only thing I can think of being different would be in health; where more BAME people researching health inequalities may be a really good idea. But I struggle to see how a black person would be any different to a white person in chemistry or physics.

Anyone got any thoughts?

They’d be better at studying black holes or dark matter?

[notfatcat]

When did the Chinese become "persons of colour" ?

quoting the BBC here..
BAFTA Awards
" Zhao's victory means she is the first woman of colour to pick up the prize"

POC = not white

[robmatic]

Interesting guardian article. https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... -in-the-uk

Drawing a focus on ‘equity’ rather than ‘equality’.

Equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

Genuinely don’t know how I feel about the idea that we must encourage black people to enter the Sciences because a black scientist would bring a different perspective on the subject compared to white scientists and therefore bring better results.

The only thing I can think of being different would be in health; where more BAME people researching health inequalities may be a really good idea. But I struggle to see how a black person would be any different to a white person in chemistry or physics.

Anyone got any thoughts?

That sounds super racist. Do black scientists who have been through the same Western education system have a different perspective because they have retained their 'noble savage' insight or something?

I'm all for encouraging black people to enter the sciences because that is in itself a good thing without the racist essentialisation.

[robmatic]

When did the Chinese become "persons of colour" ?

quoting the BBC here..
BAFTA Awards
" Zhao's victory means she is the first woman of colour to pick up the prize"

Good grief. What's the word for that thing you do when you automatically apply the same classification to a wealthy, privileged foreigner as you do to an underprivileged member of your own community because of their skin colour?

[Torquemada 1420]

When did the Chinese become "persons of colour" ?

quoting the BBC here..
BAFTA Awards
" Zhao's victory means she is the first woman of colour to pick up the prize"

POC = not white

He's trying hard
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/spor ... 22119.html

[Biffer]

It’ll be interesting to see what they’ll do now. I would say they must have planned for this reaction, but this lot don’t seem great at planning.

I’d love to see a proper debate on it. An IQsquared event or something like that.

They’ll ignore everything. They’ve ticked their box and had their review, and the core support will just be encouraged by the usual supplicant sections of the media to view the backlash as woke millennials crying again.

[Biffer]

Interesting guardian article. https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... -in-the-uk

Drawing a focus on ‘equity’ rather than ‘equality’.

Equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

Genuinely don’t know how I feel about the idea that we must encourage black people to enter the Sciences because a black scientist would bring a different perspective on the subject compared to white scientists and therefore bring better results.

The only thing I can think of being different would be in health; where more BAME people researching health inequalities may be a really good idea. But I struggle to see how a black person would be any different to a white person in chemistry or physics.

Anyone got any thoughts?

That sounds super racist. Do black scientists who have been through the same Western education system have a different perspective because they have retained their 'noble savage' insight or something?

I'm all for encouraging black people to enter the sciences because that is in itself a good thing without the racist essentialisation.

I can attest to Space Science, Physics and Astronomy being astonishingly white.

[Glaston]

When did the Chinese become "persons of colour" ?

quoting the BBC here..
BAFTA Awards
" Zhao's victory means she is the first woman of colour to pick up the prize"

POC = not white

Funny though.

All the Chinese/Thai/Philipino people I knew wanted to stay as pale as possible.
Having a dark/sun tanned skin colour meant you were essentially a peasant.

I would love to see someone describe Xi Jinping as a "person of colour"

[robmatic]

Interesting guardian article. https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... -in-the-uk

Drawing a focus on ‘equity’ rather than ‘equality’.

Equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

Genuinely don’t know how I feel about the idea that we must encourage black people to enter the Sciences because a black scientist would bring a different perspective on the subject compared to white scientists and therefore bring better results.

The only thing I can think of being different would be in health; where more BAME people researching health inequalities may be a really good idea. But I struggle to see how a black person would be any different to a white person in chemistry or physics.

Anyone got any thoughts?

That sounds super racist. Do black scientists who have been through the same Western education system have a different perspective because they have retained their 'noble savage' insight or something?

I'm all for encouraging black people to enter the sciences because that is in itself a good thing without the racist essentialisation.

I can attest to Space Science, Physics and Astronomy being astonishingly white.

Nerd environments (and I don't mean nerd in a negative way) can be incredibly unwelcoming.

I did Computer Science at uni which I imagine to share many similarities and I can imagine minorities being put off. It was bad enough for the girls.

[Torquemada 1420]

Interesting read on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56737929

Young black people three times more likely to be unemployed than white peers
Post COVID
UK jobless rate for
- young black people 35%
- your Asians = 24%
- young whites = 13%

Now, not surprised by those numbers per se. What was surprising is:

By the end of last year, unemployment among young black graduates had risen to 34%, up from 22% before the pandemic.

That was a rate almost three times that of young white graduates during the same period (13%). The unemployment rate for young Asian graduates during this period was 24%.

So what's going on here? Are black students choosing even more toilet paper degrees than their white counterparts? Or is these something structurally wider in the employment sector?

The Asian graduates appears to give a lie to them "all studying pharmacy, dentistry and GP".

BTW, the fact that white unemployment is the same across the entire set as it is for graduates pretty much proves they are studying useless subjects.

[Biffer]

Prince Andrew doing his utmost to demonstrate his privilege I see.

[Random1]

Interesting read on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56737929

Young black people three times more likely to be unemployed than white peers
Post COVID
UK jobless rate for
- young black people 35%
- your Asians = 24%
- young whites = 13%

Now, not surprised by those numbers per se. What was surprising is:

By the end of last year, unemployment among young black graduates had risen to 34%, up from 22% before the pandemic.

That was a rate almost three times that of young white graduates during the same period (13%). The unemployment rate for young Asian graduates during this period was 24%.

So what's going on here? Are black students choosing even more toilet paper degrees than their white counterparts? Or is these something structurally wider in the employment sector?

The Asian graduates appears to give a lie to them "all studying pharmacy, dentistry and GP".

BTW, the fact that white unemployment is the same across the entire set as it is for graduates pretty much proves they are studying useless subjects.

These sorts of reports annoy me.

They’ve done the stats study to show the disparity, but they’ve done nothing to work out the ‘why’ it’s happening.

Has Covid made people more racist? Have people/employers laid off based on colour? If so, that’s disgusting. We really need to prove that though so we can work out what to do.

But we can’t, because the study took the low hanging fruit and didn’t do the diagnostics.

I should probably put this on the ‘things that annoy me’ Fred!

[Torquemada 1420]

These sorts of reports annoy me.

They’ve done the stats study to show the disparity, but they’ve done nothing to work out the ‘why’ it’s happening.

Has Covid made people more racist? Have people/employers laid off based on colour? If so, that’s disgusting. We really need to prove that though so we can work out what to do.

But we can’t, because the study took the low hanging fruit and didn’t do the diagnostics.

I should probably put this on the ‘things that annoy me’ Fred!

Agree. The problems amongst black youth are far more complex than the "it's institutional racism". That just allows everyone off the hook (including the black community) and guess what......... nothing changes.

[shaggy]

Interesting read on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56737929

Young black people three times more likely to be unemployed than white peers
Post COVID
UK jobless rate for
- young black people 35%
- your Asians = 24%
- young whites = 13%

Now, not surprised by those numbers per se. What was surprising is:

By the end of last year, unemployment among young black graduates had risen to 34%, up from 22% before the pandemic.

That was a rate almost three times that of young white graduates during the same period (13%). The unemployment rate for young Asian graduates during this period was 24%.

So what's going on here? Are black students choosing even more toilet paper degrees than their white counterparts? Or is these something structurally wider in the employment sector?

The Asian graduates appears to give a lie to them "all studying pharmacy, dentistry and GP".

BTW, the fact that white unemployment is the same across the entire set as it is for graduates pretty much proves they are studying useless subjects.

These sorts of reports annoy me.

They’ve done the stats study to show the disparity, but they’ve done nothing to work out the ‘why’ it’s happening.

Has Covid made people more racist? Have people/employers laid off based on colour? If so, that’s disgusting. We really need to prove that though so we can work out what to do.

But we can’t, because the study took the low hanging fruit and didn’t do the diagnostics.

I should probably put this on the ‘things that annoy me’ Fred!

If they did a complete analysis there would less chance for further headlines and stories. All media is now about generating the next story and further clicks.

[Torquemada 1420]

If they did a complete analysis there would less chance for further headlines and stories. All media is now about generating the next story and further clicks.

And in the current climate, I suspect some of the findings would not go down well. Specifically in this case a partial element of contributory affliction in the form of gang mentality/violence**

** And I recognise and acknowledge that cycles of poverty contribute to a significant degree towards such behaviour. Amongst men anyway.

[Random1]

Decent quality discussion about why people are trying to push back on critical race theory in schools in the US.

Both guys stand their ground and each make good points IMO

Didn’t think this sort of thing was allowed on US tv anymore!

[Chilli]

We are sitting with a similar issue in South Africa.
White people who were born here from generations of white people who were born here are not considered to be African.

[Line6 HXFX]

Fun fact, the UK never had any need for slaves to work for nothing but food and shelter in the factories, fields and down the mines and in the mills, because yip guess what,
That's right, there was masses of white poor desperate people, with zero alternative in life and forced to do it for next to nothing.
Not much priviledge around since either, plenty of underpriviledge though,

[Chilli]

Fun fact, the UK never had any need for slaves to work for nothing but food and shelter in the factories, fields and down the mines and in the mills, because yip guess what,
That's right, there was masses of white poor desperate people, with zero alternative in life and forced to do it for next to nothing.
Not much priviledge around since either, plenty of underpriviledge though,

Irish & Welsh?

[Thor Sedan]

Fun fact, the UK never had any need for slaves to work for nothing but food and shelter in the factories, fields and down the mines and in the mills, because yip guess what,
That's right, there was masses of white poor desperate people, with zero alternative in life and forced to do it for next to nothing.
Not much priviledge around since either, plenty of underpriviledge though,

Erm - didn't most of the slave labour that the UK 'employed' work in colonies rather than the UK itself? West UK with goods to West Africa - trade for slaves and then across the Atlantic to the working colonies and back to the UK with traded goods?

And I don't think you can compare the plight of the low paid workers (as awful as it was) in their own town, city, country to the forcible removal of entire generations of men and boys to be used as slave labour on what would have felt like a completely different world.

It seems like you are making the 'what about all lives matter' argument. An argument which is deeply flawed and entirely disingenuous.

[Rinkals]

These sorts of reports annoy me.

They’ve done the stats study to show the disparity, but they’ve done nothing to work out the ‘why’ it’s happening.

Has Covid made people more racist? Have people/employers laid off based on colour? If so, that’s disgusting. We really need to prove that though so we can work out what to do.

But we can’t, because the study took the low hanging fruit and didn’t do the diagnostics.

I should probably put this on the ‘things that annoy me’ Fred!

Agree. The problems amongst black youth are far more complex than the "it's institutional racism". That just allows everyone off the hook (including the black community) and guess what......... nothing changes.

Could it be that the economic power remains largely in the hands of whites? ie, are management and HR departments under represented by POC?

In South Africa there is obviously a push to slant the job market in favour of Indigenous races, but most white people will use their connections to advance in the job market. Blacks don't tend to have the contacts to be able to do this (unless they are closely connected with the ANC, of course).

[Tichtheid]

I see that England player Tyrone Mings has called out Priti Patel (for non-UKers, she is the Home Secretary)

Mings tweeted a response to her voicing her disgust at the racist abuse aimed at some of the team after Sunday's defeat;

“You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens.”

https://theathletic.com/news/tyrone-min ... FSvG0dJgLE

[Glaston]

I see that England player Tyrone Mings has called out Priti Patel (for non-UKers, she is the Home Secretary)

Mings tweeted a response to her voicing her disgust at the racist abuse aimed at some of the team after Sunday's defeat;

“You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens.”

https://theathletic.com/news/tyrone-min ... FSvG0dJgLE

Also for non UK'ers
Thats Priti Patel of Asian background who has quite often been racially abused by numerous Lefties in UK Politics.
Even in the House of Commons

[notfatcat]

I've seen some odd things directed at Patel on Facebook over the last several days.

Taking the knee is surely the very definition of gesture politics.

[Rinkals]

I've seen some odd things directed at Patel on Facebook over the last several days.

Taking the knee is surely the very definition of gesture politics.

Are you suggesting that drawing attention to racist behaviour is hypocritical?

Presumably that is because you feel that such behaviour doesn't exist?

Because I feel that it does exist and I feel that taking the knee is a valid way of drawing attention to it.

[notfatcat]

Are you suggesting that drawing attention to racist behaviour is hypocritical?

No I'm not.

[Paddington Bear]

A few thousand people across England absolutely disgraced themselves on Sunday, whilst the vast majority had a great day.
Note the condemnation of racism is near universal, from The Sun downward.
Wembley was carnage but compare it to England fans of the 90s and there's no comparison.
After the loss in 96 there were riots, severe criminal damage to German businesses and a murder. Beyond a few cretins round Trafalgar Square, on Sunday just about everyone went home. 78% are proud of the team rather than disappointed, there's no effigies on streets or dartboards in the papers.

Obviously we still have major strides to take, but the revulsion (and that is the word) across English society at the way some people have treated the players is indicative of a society that has transformed in 20 odd years.

Social media amplifies cretins, they clearly do not speak for England.

And the people calling the Italian win a victory for anti-racism can cop the fuck on.