NPR

To temper my earlier optimism my wife just got back from an awful shift in her ward. She's now seen so many die from Covid that she can recognise the pattern very early on - people who have it but seem 'ok' but very quickly require more and more oxygen until they are so deprived they end up ripping the mask off because they are desperate to try and breathe more and think the mask (that's keeping them alive) is stopping it. Past a certain point death becomes inevitable and the last contact with families in the best case scenario is via a tablet (she had someone die for non covid reasons in the 'safe' part of the ward and remarked how 'nice' it was to have a death with the family present to way it should be - sounds a bit harsh but nurses are pretty hardened to this)

Unfortunately most of her patients are fully vaccinated but because of there age are not considered worth sending to ITU to be ventilated.

Anyway please encourage anyone you know who is eligible to get the booster.

tc27 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:51 am To temper my earlier optimism my wife just got back from an awful shift in her ward. She's now seen so many die from Covid that she can recognise the pattern very early on - people who have it but seem 'ok' but very quickly require more and more oxygen until they are so deprived they end up ripping the mask off because they are desperate to try and breathe more and think the mask (that's keeping them alive) is stopping it. Past a certain point death becomes inevitable and the last contact with families in the best case scenario is via a tablet (she had someone die for non covid reasons in the 'safe' part of the ward and remarked how 'nice' it was to have a death with the family present to way it should be - sounds a bit harsh but nurses are pretty hardened to this)

Unfortunately most of her patients are fully vaccinated but because of there age are not considered worth sending to ITU to be ventilated.

Anyway please encourage anyone you know who is eligible to get the booster.

This is horrendous.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -pcr-tests

Immensa Lab scandal just gets worse and worse. Why the hell is Immensa still providing PCR testing, even in other of their labs? Why is our Gov trying to protect a private lab, set up only months before, who they gave a dodgy £112m deal? Why is our Gov denying that telling 43,000 folk with covid that they didn't have covid hasn't had an impact on infection rates in the region involved? Where is the urgent investigation? This just stinks.

Interesting thread of impact of Immensa Lab failures.

dpedin wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:23 am https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -pcr-tests

Immensa Lab scandal just gets worse and worse. Why the hell is Immensa still providing PCR testing, even in other of their labs? Why is our Gov trying to protect a private lab, set up only months before, who they gave a dodgy £112m deal? Why is our Gov denying that telling 43,000 folk with covid that they didn't have covid hasn't had an impact on infection rates in the region involved? Where is the urgent investigation? This just stinks.

If only we had a group in this country who could stand up and shout loudly about it. Some sort of opposite-side Party to the one in power.......

Re the booster - the system for getting it seems either very flexible or chaotic, take your pick. The six months from second jab expires this week for me. I’ve heard nothing from my GP practice or the NHS, the NHS webpage says ring 119 if you haven’t heard after six months and one week. On the off chance we rang a local health centre and were told we could come in today for one.
There needs to be a lot more publicity about this and other precautions, not just ministers mentioning it in passing in interviews. Has the added benefit of a bit more money for MP’s chums in advertising.

Sandstorm wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:04 pm

dpedin wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:23 am https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -pcr-tests

Immensa Lab scandal just gets worse and worse. Why the hell is Immensa still providing PCR testing, even in other of their labs? Why is our Gov trying to protect a private lab, set up only months before, who they gave a dodgy £112m deal? Why is our Gov denying that telling 43,000 folk with covid that they didn't have covid hasn't had an impact on infection rates in the region involved? Where is the urgent investigation? This just stinks.

If only we had a group in this country who could stand up and shout loudly about it. Some sort of opposite-side Party to the one in power.......

They are shouting but I think we have already found that the current Gov doesn't give a shit as there is no chance their party of Brexit Ultras MPs are going to vote against them. Even the feckin Speaker of the House can't get them to abide by the usual rules and protocols re the budget. They don't give a fuck and when they are held to account they then go after those involved - the judiciary/Supreme Court spring to mind. The Immensa Lab scandal is another that they will ignore and promise a report which will take months/years and they know everyone will have forgotten about when it finally reports.

Another encouraging data point today indicating a decline - for context:

Edit - English data only but my impression is the data from Wales/Scot/NI is showing similar declines.



Also strikes me that the breathless and panicky commentary during the period of rising daily infections seems to go completely unchallenged even when events prove it to be premature - and yet those same voices will be uncritically repeated the next time the infection rate rises.

dpedin wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:32 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:04 pm

dpedin wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:23 am https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -pcr-tests

Immensa Lab scandal just gets worse and worse. Why the hell is Immensa still providing PCR testing, even in other of their labs? Why is our Gov trying to protect a private lab, set up only months before, who they gave a dodgy £112m deal? Why is our Gov denying that telling 43,000 folk with covid that they didn't have covid hasn't had an impact on infection rates in the region involved? Where is the urgent investigation? This just stinks.

If only we had a group in this country who could stand up and shout loudly about it. Some sort of opposite-side Party to the one in power.......

They are shouting but I think we have already found that the current Gov doesn't give a shit as there is no chance their party of Brexit Ultras MPs are going to vote against them. Even the feckin Speaker of the House can't get them to abide by the usual rules and protocols re the budget. They don't give a fuck and when they are held to account they then go after those involved - the judiciary/Supreme Court spring to mind. The Immensa Lab scandal is another that they will ignore and promise a report which will take months/years and they know everyone will have forgotten about when it finally reports.

Need mainstream Press to turn against them too.

tc27 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:31 pm Another encouraging data point today indicating a decline - for context:

Edit - English data only but my impression is the data from Wales/Scot/NI is showing similar declines.



Also strikes me that the breathless and panicky commentary during the period of rising daily infections seems to go completely unchallenged even when events prove it to be premature - and yet those same voices will be uncritically repeated the next time the infection rate rises.

There is no need for panic, but there is a need for action to prevent further hurt and issues.
Great that daily infection numbers are below 50k again, but 40k daily cases is still a huge amount. And the consequences of that are still ongoing and coming: 3 weeks ago there were around 6500 people in hospital, whereas now it's 8700 and rising. Today the daily death report is 263. We may be desensitised to these numbers, but that's a lot of people.

By next week, the start of November, we may well have 10k people in hospitals again, and that's with the winter season still to come, with warnings that flu and similar illnesses will hit harder this winter.
The NHS was already struggling before Covid, and now they've had nearly 2 years of running flat out, with more to come.

The concerns aren't about Covid on its own, it's the effect on a service that is already struggling and understaffed. This will impact all other care and healthcare services, from hip operations to cancer care to paediatrics, which is at this stage (and for a long time to come) the biggest problem.

salanya wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:45 pm

tc27 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:31 pm Another encouraging data point today indicating a decline - for context:

Edit - English data only but my impression is the data from Wales/Scot/NI is showing similar declines.



Also strikes me that the breathless and panicky commentary during the period of rising daily infections seems to go completely unchallenged even when events prove it to be premature - and yet those same voices will be uncritically repeated the next time the infection rate rises.

There is no need for panic, but there is a need for action to prevent further hurt and issues.
Great that daily infection numbers are below 50k again, but 40k daily cases is still a huge amount. And the consequences of that are still ongoing and coming: 3 weeks ago there were around 6500 people in hospital, whereas now it's 8700 and rising. Today the daily death report is 263. We may be desensitised to these numbers, but that's a lot of people.

By next week, the start of November, we may well have 10k people in hospitals again, and that's with the winter season still to come, with warnings that flu and similar illnesses will hit harder this winter.
The NHS was already struggling before Covid, and now they've had nearly 2 years of running flat out, with more to come.

The concerns aren't about Covid on its own, it's the effect on a service that is already struggling and understaffed. This will impact all other care and healthcare services, from hip operations to cancer care to paediatrics, which is at this stage (and for a long time to come) the biggest problem.

This!

Also you still need 7 days of drop in numbers to say if there is a trend, not sure from the graph if the 'case nos/case nos 7 days a week before' shows this - can't tell from graphic.

UK 7 day average for deaths is still running at 140 which is still 980 per week and over 50,000 per annum. Excess deaths last week running at 1,668 per week more than 5 year ave pre pandemic. All this would suggest we have a long way to go to get out of the woods. Let see how winter goes.

Sounds to me like the 'breathless and panicky commentary' has a point?

1000 died per day in January and the country rightly went mental.
246 died today and no-one seems to care.

It’s very weird and very sad.

Sandstorm wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:49 pm 1000 died per day in January and the country rightly went mental.
246 died today and no-one seems to care.

It’s very weird and very sad.

Yeah, we're really desensitised to the numbers.
I stand by my previous comments that the media are mainly responsible for this: they stopped in large parts showing clips of hospital patients and NHS staff. And no, I don't want them to dramatise and scaremonger, but we have to be visually reminded from time to time that Covid has the potential to do huge damage to the human body, and see the impact of going on ventilators, the care it requires, the wider impact on the NHS etc.
Numbers and words are for information, but as a 21st century society we mostly need visuals to engage with a subject.

Obviously the government haven't helped, as the PR-game of vaccinations has finished now (as most western countries have caught up). They don't want to go back to any measures (and the costs of them), so this government's choice is to ignore or downplay, rather than focusing on messaging to keep vigilant and put us in the best position to avoid the return of Covid measures and casualties.

Of course we're all tired of Covid, and technically we all know (and most acknowledge) the realities of it. But if you're not reminded occassionally, it slowly fades in significance, and words and numbers no longer have the same impact.

Also re testing numbers. It's half term and a huge amount of testing takes place in schools.

salanya wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:57 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:49 pm 1000 died per day in January and the country rightly went mental.
246 died today and no-one seems to care.

It’s very weird and very sad.

Yeah, we're really desensitised to the numbers.
I stand by my previous comments that the media are mainly responsible for this: they stopped in large parts showing clips of hospital patients and NHS staff. And no, I don't want them to dramatise and scaremonger, but we have to be visually reminded from time to time that Covid has the potential to do huge damage to the human body, and see the impact of going on ventilators, the care it requires, the wider impact on the NHS etc.
Numbers and words are for information, but as a 21st century society we mostly need visuals to engage with a subject.

Obviously the government haven't helped, as the PR-game of vaccinations has finished now (as most western countries have caught up). They don't want to go back to any measures (and the costs of them), so this government's choice is to ignore or downplay, rather than focusing on messaging to keep vigilant and put us in the best position to avoid the return of Covid measures and casualties.

Of course we're all tired of Covid, and technically we all know (and most acknowledge) the realities of it. But if you're not reminded occassionally, it slowly fades in significance, and words and numbers no longer have the same impact.

The media has stopped the reports inside hospitals because they are not generating hits. If they persist in stories that gain no traction they quickly lose their audience. It is a commercial decision in many cases.

salanya wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:57 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:49 pm 1000 died per day in January and the country rightly went mental.
246 died today and no-one seems to care.

It’s very weird and very sad.

Yeah, we're really desensitised to the numbers.
I stand by my previous comments that the media are mainly responsible for this: they stopped in large parts showing clips of hospital patients and NHS staff. And no, I don't want them to dramatise and scaremonger, but we have to be visually reminded from time to time that Covid has the potential to do huge damage to the human body, and see the impact of going on ventilators, the care it requires, the wider impact on the NHS etc.
Numbers and words are for information, but as a 21st century society we mostly need visuals to engage with a subject.

Obviously the government haven't helped, as the PR-game of vaccinations has finished now (as most western countries have caught up). They don't want to go back to any measures (and the costs of them), so this government's choice is to ignore or downplay, rather than focusing on messaging to keep vigilant and put us in the best position to avoid the return of Covid measures and casualties.

Of course we're all tired of Covid, and technically we all know (and most acknowledge) the realities of it. But if you're not reminded occassionally, it slowly fades in significance, and words and numbers no longer have the same impact.

A couple of technical points - Tuesdays are always 'peak death' reporting day and include deaths from the days of the week - again the 7 day rate is the one that matters here.

Secondly there has being no real decline in absolute testing numbers as of yesterday so its not that.

We can quite reasonably talk about tougher rules for masks and vaccination passports but do the current levels of deaths and infections require a return to spring/winter 2020 style social distancing and the enormous economic and social costs of that? Does anyone have a number in mind?

Again to clarify- I am not one of those who thinks there isn't a problem - as I said before I support mask rules and vaccine passports for public events. However the only proven way to decisively drive down infections and deaths is a full lockdown and social distancing measures - how many people actually support this?

TC27: nobody (here) is saying we need to go back to lockdown measures.

Obviously we are in a much better situation than we were 18 or 9 months ago, with the vaccine the biggest contributor to that.
Several of us are pointing out that despite this, the numbers are still high, and to protect ourselves, others and the NHS specifically, the community at large should be actively engaged and encouraged to take Covid seriously still, and adhere to the basic hygiene measures.
That way the numbers will be curbed more, fewer lives badly impacted, and we wouldn't even need to mention possibilities of any form of lockdown.

In summary: we got society and the economy going again, let's protect it by not ignoring Covid and its impact, but by taking it seriously and doing the basics well.

salanya wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:00 am TC27: nobody (here) is saying we need to go back to lockdown measures.

Obviously we are in a much better situation than we were 18 or 9 months ago, with the vaccine the biggest contributor to that.
Several of us are pointing out that despite this, the numbers are still high, and to protect ourselves, others and the NHS specifically, the community at large should be actively engaged and encouraged to take Covid seriously still, and adhere to the basic hygiene measures.
That way the numbers will be curbed more, fewer lives badly impacted, and we wouldn't even need to mention possibilities of any form of lockdown.

In summary: we got society and the economy going again, let's protect it by not ignoring Covid and its impact, but by taking it seriously and doing the basics well.

Exactly - it is this scaremongering about 'full lockdown' that is preventing a sensible approach and adoption of sensible and relatively simple PH mitigations. I am not sure if folk do this deliberately or through ignorance?

Wearing masks indoors/shops/transport, social distancing where possible, better ventilation (keeping doors and windows open where possible), working from home where possible, etc are all easy to do and don't have any real impact on day to day life. Its not stopping me living an almost 'normal' life. However this could be enough to stop covid cases and flu type bugs increasing over winter and thus stopping unbearable pressure on NHS. It would also be the best way of avoiding a 'full lockdown' which no-one wants. It would also be useful to have a full and functioning TT&T system that is spewing out 43,000 false negatives!

The only reason the Gov has not pushed for these simple measures is that its plan is to try and achieve herd immunity more quickly through infection within the younger age groups. Apart from being immoral and irresponsible this is dangerous when we have perfectly good and effective vaccines which if rolled out to everyone, kids included, and paired with the simple PH measures I mentioned would achieve a far better outcome quicker and more safely. It would also have less impact on the economy.

Cases, hospitalisations, ICU and deaths all up today! 7 day average for deaths at 144 - 1,000 a week or 52,000 a year. 7 day average of cases is going slightly down but as expected 7 day average for deaths going up.

If the Blonde Bumblecunt is saying that there is nothing in these numbers that they didnt expect and are within their plans and therefore they are not going to implement further restrictions then this implies that they have planned for and are comfortable within 50k deaths a year? I can only assume the bodies aren't piling up high enough to take any actions to mitigate the spread? I hate to think what the actual number of deaths would need to be for them to trigger Plan B!

It’s the kids !!

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ons-by-age

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:41 pm
Half term. It'll bounce again in 3 weeks time.

I always said it was the children. Even when I knew it was the bears.......

Right you are. 7 times more prevalent, the pubescent spreading little bastards.

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:26 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:41 pm
Half term. It'll bounce again in 3 weeks time.

I always said it was the children. Even when I knew it was the bears.......

Right you are. 7 times more prevalent, the pubescent spreading little bastards.

This is why getting them vaccinated; or at least a decent chunk of them vaccinated; before sending them all back to school was a no-brainer.

Unfortunately; no-brain would be a significant improvement on those running the UK.

Irelands figures are still high; despite having had the over 12s approved, & a good uptake since late August.

fishfoodie wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:46 pm

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:26 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:41 pm
Half term. It'll bounce again in 3 weeks time.

I always said it was the children. Even when I knew it was the bears.......

Right you are. 7 times more prevalent, the pubescent spreading little bastards.

This is why getting them vaccinated; or at least a decent chunk of them vaccinated; before sending them all back to school was a no-brainer.

Unfortunately; no-brain would be a significant improvement on those running the UK.

Irelands figures are still high; despite having had the over 12s approved, & a good uptake since late August.

High case numbers in school age kids was always going to happen given we sent them back to school unvaccinated and with minimal or no PH mitigations. You would almost think it was premeditated way of achieving herd immunity via infection? However kids have parents and grandparents and with Delta variant this means that infection within households and relatives was pretty obvious. Chuck in a lab that was sending out 43,000 false negatives and a virus with an R of 7-10 and guess what! This is criminal negligence, nowhere else in the world, bar Brazil, is exposing its pop deliberately to a dangerous and relatively unknown virus in order to achieve pop immunity, which is never going to be achieved in this way. Is it any wonder we still have c1,000 deaths a week. Criminal.

Obviously I’m not talking about the dodgy lab … But in terms of managing it once you’ve 90% vaccinated, (and ideally the 12-16’s covered), what actually is/was the other option apart from live with it?

There is no way this thing is not going to burn through our population. And possibly better it does sooner while the vaccinations are more effective.

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:37 pm Obviously I’m not talking about the dodgy lab … But in terms of managing it once you’ve 90% vaccinated, (and ideally the 12-16’s covered), what actually is/was the other option apart from live with it?

There is no way this thing is not going to burn through our population. And possibly better it does sooner while the vaccinations are more effective.

Keep doing the simple PH measures that have done all the hard yards this far !

Let people work from home (Ireland, has now gone from aiming for this to reduce in Oct/Nov, to conceding it can't happen till Spring)

Businesses already have all the shields, masks, etc in place; so keep using them, & tell people that social distancing is still best if they have the space.

It's all about minimizing the risks where we a lot of the hard work is done; & then keep pushing vaccination, & start shooting the anti-vaxxer cunts scaring people*



* may not be completely legal; but we have to start thinking about doing it in a limited & specific way.

But surely it’s not something we will be able to avoid. And it’s better to catch it now than later whilst vaccinations are most effective, and not to mention to catch it before the next dangerous strain inevitably comes along - and take the edge of that one.

Shooting anti vaxxers sounds like one way to keep the covid linked deaths lower.

fishfoodie wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:57 pm

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:37 pm Obviously I’m not talking about the dodgy lab … But in terms of managing it once you’ve 90% vaccinated, (and ideally the 12-16’s covered), what actually is/was the other option apart from live with it?

There is no way this thing is not going to burn through our population. And possibly better it does sooner while the vaccinations are more effective.

Keep doing the simple PH measures that have done all the hard yards this far !

Let people work from home (Ireland, has now gone from aiming for this to reduce in Oct/Nov, to conceding it can't happen till Spring)

Businesses already have all the shields, masks, etc in place; so keep using them, & tell people that social distancing is still best if they have the space.

It's all about minimizing the risks where we a lot of the hard work is done; & then keep pushing vaccination, & start shooting the anti-vaxxer cunts scaring people*



* may not be completely legal; but we have to start thinking about doing it in a limited & specific way.

Rich business property landlords have pressured/bribed the Govt to get people back to work.

I was wondering what’s going to happen to the commercial real estate. Converted to residential was the expectation. Though that needs capital to do.

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:09 pm I was wondering what’s going to happen to the commercial real estate. Converted to residential was the expectation. Though that needs capital to do.

So in other words; commercial real estate owners want a bribe from the taxpayers; to switch to a more profitable real estate; & because the cunts in power can sell this as a win; they're confident they'll get that bribe.

Government give tax payers money to insanely rich people to spend said money to convert commercial lets into residential.

Tories trumpet their Green credentials; by enabling more people to WFH.

Tories trumpet their Caring credentials; by enabling the creation of many more housing Units in the most expensive parts of Cities.

Tax payers get fleeced; by paying twice; if not three times for a tiny flat in a former commercial let.

I’m not certain the capital to transform it will be a hand out.

Probably some owners of commercial property will have their ownership bought out by private developers.

Most owners of commercial property own shares in a building and it generates income and capital gains for them. Selling done through property broker.

But that income is at risk of drying up as commercial leases start expiring or expect to expire. The valuation is significantly driven by income (like with a bond) so the valuation of their ownership will dive.

So I expect the residential developers will pick it up at bargain prices.

But I think this will all be driven by natural capital markets, no need for government to intervene. Except unless they offer grants. But haven’t read that.

This is just my understanding, and I might be totally wrong about all of this. An expert on the bored may correct my understanding.

fishfoodie wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:03 pm

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:09 pm I was wondering what’s going to happen to the commercial real estate. Converted to residential was the expectation. Though that needs capital to do.

So in other words; commercial real estate owners want a bribe from the taxpayers; to switch to a more profitable real estate; & because the cunts in power can sell this as a win; they're confident they'll get that bribe.

Government give tax payers money to insanely rich people to spend said money to convert commercial lets into residential.

Tories trumpet their Green credentials; by enabling more people to WFH.

Tories trumpet their Caring credentials; by enabling the creation of many more housing Units in the most expensive parts of Cities.

Tax payers get fleeced; by paying twice; if not three times for a tiny flat in a former commercial let.

Do you know where your pension pot is invested? Commercial property is indelibly linked to all of our retirements, they are not just the plaything of some small group of evil overseas investors.

Commercial landlords are going to bring enormous pressure to bear to get people back to work in 2022.
Fwiw though no one is crying salt tears for them, I'm increasingly down on wfh - in general I think it does reduce productivity and makes it very difficult for people to start new roles/take on new projects. A lot of people have coasted through the pandemic from their spare room.

I've made the point before but if there is no benefit to having a London/Amsterdam/New York etc office then in the longer term we cannot expect London/Amsterdam/NY wages and I think we'll find jobs replaced in Bucharest and Bangalore.

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:05 pm But surely it’s not something we will be able to avoid. And it’s better to catch it now than later whilst vaccinations are most effective, and not to mention to catch it before the next dangerous strain inevitably comes along - and take the edge of that one.

Shooting anti vaxxers sounds like one way to keep the covid linked deaths lower.

The harder we make it for the virus to spread, the more likely it is to mutate to a milder form.

Uncle fester wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:09 am

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:05 pm But surely it’s not something we will be able to avoid. And it’s better to catch it now than later whilst vaccinations are most effective, and not to mention to catch it before the next dangerous strain inevitably comes along - and take the edge of that one.

Shooting anti vaxxers sounds like one way to keep the covid linked deaths lower.

The harder we make it for the virus to spread, the more likely it is to mutate to a milder form.

Norovirus has been rampant in England in the last decade and neither my wife or I have had it. No reason why everyone will inevitably catch Covid.

Uncle fester wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:09 am

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:05 pm But surely it’s not something we will be able to avoid. And it’s better to catch it now than later whilst vaccinations are most effective, and not to mention to catch it before the next dangerous strain inevitably comes along - and take the edge of that one.

Shooting anti vaxxers sounds like one way to keep the covid linked deaths lower.

The harder we make it for the virus to spread, the more likely it is to mutate to a milder form.

Hmmm, I’m not sure that is based on any science I’ve heard. But ping a link through.

In fact, the opposite happened with the Kent strain and then the Indian strain, whilst the world was locked down. Survival of the fittest saw to these strains taking over their respective predecessors. The ones able to survive and flourish effectively in a more locked down state.

In terms of mild/dangerous, the single most important factor here is in relation to the state of the human immune system response. And what it has previously battled and recognises.

At this rate it'll be a long time to say things are getting back to normal, when there are still "hot-spots" springing up here there and everywhere especially when a majority remain unvaccinated for whatever reason

Covid: Moscow shops and restaurants shut in partial lockdown

Shops, restaurants and schools have shut in Moscow in a partial lockdown, as Russia battles record Covid deaths and infections. Only essential shops like supermarkets and pharmacies are allowed to open in the capital, while food outlets are only providing takeaways.

Authorities have also given workers across Russia nine days off from Saturday in a bid to curb infections. Russia has reported a record 1,159 deaths from Covid in the past 24 hours. The official data also reveals 40,096 new infections in 85 regions of Russia - another record.

Russia's overall Covid death toll in the pandemic is officially more than 230,000, the highest in Europe and one of the highest in the world. Russia's last major lockdown was in May-June 2020.

The proportion of Russia's population fully vaccinated remains low - on 23 October it was 32.8%, Our World in Data reports. Most European countries have much higher rates. Despite an intensive state vaccination drive, many Russians remain suspicious of the Sputnik V vaccine, which is internationally recognised as an effective shield against Covid.

Sandstorm wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:10 am

Uncle fester wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:09 am

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:05 pm But surely it’s not something we will be able to avoid. And it’s better to catch it now than later whilst vaccinations are most effective, and not to mention to catch it before the next dangerous strain inevitably comes along - and take the edge of that one.

Shooting anti vaxxers sounds like one way to keep the covid linked deaths lower.

The harder we make it for the virus to spread, the more likely it is to mutate to a milder form.

Norovirus has been rampant in England in the last decade and neither my wife or I have had it. No reason why everyone will inevitably catch Covid.

It's a winter virus that doesn't last as long as Covid, isn't as infectious as Covid, and has nowhere near the numbers of people infected as Covid. Not sure it's a great comparison.

Ymx wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:05 pm But surely it’s not something we will be able to avoid. And it’s better to catch it now than later whilst vaccinations are most effective, and not to mention to catch it before the next dangerous strain inevitably comes along - and take the edge of that one.

Shooting anti vaxxers sounds like one way to keep the covid linked deaths lower.

There is no scenario where 'catching' covid is a better way of achieving a level of immunity inn the community than being vaccinated. Any strategy which involves deliberately letting a section of society 'catch' a relatively unknown virus with a death rate of 7-10 times that of flu and as yet not fully understood long term health implications is criminal.Letting it 'burn through' the young isnt a PH strategy it is an abdication of the basic priority of a Gov to protect its people.

We know that even those double vaccinated can still catch or transmit covid but we also know they are many times less likely to be hospitalised or die. We also know that they are also far less likely to transmit covid and over a shorter period of time. Boosters will reduce these even further. The sensible strategy would have been to wait until we had a very high level of vaccination, including school kids, before we loosened PH mitigations and then only do that in a controlled way. It would also make more sense to do this in spring once we have got over what looks like a shitty winter coming up.

Longer term we need to drive down community transmission of covid by using the standard PH mitigations, continue to boost or adapt vaccinations if required, have locally based PH teams in place to test, track and trace local outbreaks and improve various issues like ventilation on crowded areas much of which could be simple and low cost solutions ie portable HEPA filters.

I was not saying people catch it instead of being vaccinated. Not sure if that was a deliberately mis construing my words, or not? Though I was pretty clear, I thought.

But those vaccinated are also catching it (delta) too. And it will continue to propagate through the vaccinated country until the next strain does after which.

I think it is fine to return to normal for those who’ve been double vaccinated. And like I say it’s probably better for you and me (against future unstoppable strains) to also have our bodies fend off the delta strain first.