The Official English Rugby Thread

[fishfoodie]

With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

How low can the League go ?

I mean the pips are already squeaking with the loss of two teams, & their fixtures & the associated gates, so how will losing another fixture possibly be sustained ?

BT, & the ERC, must have clauses in their contracts that link the money they pay out, to the participation, & if the league drops 20% of teams, it's not unreasonable that the broadcasters would reduce their payments by a similar ratio ?

It's a rare case of the Politicians actually doing their jobs & calling the inevitable, potential disaster, & telling the administrators they need to act, & act fast !

[Paddington Bear]

With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

How low can the League go ?

I mean the pips are already squeaking with the loss of two teams, & their fixtures & the associated gates, so how will losing another fixture possibly be sustained ?

BT, & the ERC, must have clauses in their contracts that link the money they pay out, to the participation, & if the league drops 20% of teams, it's not unreasonable that the broadcasters would reduce their payments by a similar ratio ?

It's a rare case of the Politicians actually doing their jobs & calling the inevitable, potential disaster, & telling the administrators they need to act, & act fast !

Probably to 10 teams. There's a rumour that there's one other side with financial issues but that's just speculation. On TV rights I'm not sure it matters so much - a 10 team league means there doesn't need to be any games during international windows, I can't imagine that a Sunday lunchtime kick off the day after England have played is drawing in BT's larger viewing numbers, and these weekends are a general drag on attendances and therefore ticket/bar/food sales etc anyway. BT never televised Worcester anyway!

In terms of 'we need to act' - what's the solution? Crowds are pretty healthy across the league, there's a good tv deal, the on field product is good and salaries are coming down. The challenge is particularly acute due to covid debts, if the clubs can weather this they ought to be fine in the medium term.

When we look at other club models:
Wales is in a worse state on any metric
France has more resources and men willing to chuck their cash at teams
Scotland has two pro sides underwritten by their governing body, both with average to poor attendances compared to almost all English clubs
Ireland has unique and well discussed advantages, England can't and won't copy the model

[shaggy]

With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

How low can the League go ?

I mean the pips are already squeaking with the loss of two teams, & their fixtures & the associated gates, so how will losing another fixture possibly be sustained ?

BT, & the ERC, must have clauses in their contracts that link the money they pay out, to the participation, & if the league drops 20% of teams, it's not unreasonable that the broadcasters would reduce their payments by a similar ratio ?

It's a rare case of the Politicians actually doing their jobs & calling the inevitable, potential disaster, & telling the administrators they need to act, & act fast !

Probably to 10 teams. There's a rumour that there's one other side with financial issues but that's just speculation. On TV rights I'm not sure it matters so much - a 10 team league means there doesn't need to be any games during international windows, I can't imagine that a Sunday lunchtime kick off the day after England have played is drawing in BT's larger viewing numbers, and these weekends are a general drag on attendances and therefore ticket/bar/food sales etc anyway. BT never televised Worcester anyway!

In terms of 'we need to act' - what's the solution? Crowds are pretty healthy across the league, there's a good tv deal, the on field product is good and salaries are coming down. The challenge is particularly acute due to covid debts, if the clubs can weather this they ought to be fine in the medium term.

When we look at other club models:
Wales is in a worse state on any metric
France has more resources and men willing to chuck their cash at teams
Scotland has two pro sides underwritten by their governing body, both with average to poor attendances compared to almost all English clubs
Ireland has unique and well discussed advantages, England can't and won't copy the model

How long before the calls for a B&I league start up again with a new twist on ‘to save English rugby’?

[JM2K6]

With the 10 team talk not going anywhere that increasingly suggests Newcastle are being lined up as the lamb to be slaughtered.

How low can the League go ?

I mean the pips are already squeaking with the loss of two teams, & their fixtures & the associated gates, so how will losing another fixture possibly be sustained ?

BT, & the ERC, must have clauses in their contracts that link the money they pay out, to the participation, & if the league drops 20% of teams, it's not unreasonable that the broadcasters would reduce their payments by a similar ratio ?

It's a rare case of the Politicians actually doing their jobs & calling the inevitable, potential disaster, & telling the administrators they need to act, & act fast !

Probably to 10 teams. There's a rumour that there's one other side with financial issues but that's just speculation. On TV rights I'm not sure it matters so much - a 10 team league means there doesn't need to be any games during international windows, I can't imagine that a Sunday lunchtime kick off the day after England have played is drawing in BT's larger viewing numbers, and these weekends are a general drag on attendances and therefore ticket/bar/food sales etc anyway. BT never televised Worcester anyway!

In terms of 'we need to act' - what's the solution? Crowds are pretty healthy across the league, there's a good tv deal, the on field product is good and salaries are coming down. The challenge is particularly acute due to covid debts, if the clubs can weather this they ought to be fine in the medium term.

When we look at other club models:
Wales is in a worse state on any metric
France has more resources and men willing to chuck their cash at teams
Scotland has two pro sides underwritten by their governing body, both with average to poor attendances compared to almost all English clubs
Ireland has unique and well discussed advantages, England can't and won't copy the model

Salaries are going back up, no?

[GogLais]

Joe Hawkins going to Exeter. Look after him please.

[inactionman]

Tom Ellis leaving Bath for Sale

Could do well there, he's a powerful unit

[SaintK]

Alex Codling named as new head coach at Falcons.
An odd choice as apart from a couple of seasons at Ealing as lead coach, his main experiences have been as a forwards coach.
He certainly didn't alst long as part of Jones's England set up and has flitted between jobs and is currently at Oyonnax in Pro D2
I just wonder if he fitted Falcon'ss budget allowance for the job?

[Kawazaki]

Alex Codling named as new head coach at Falcons.
An odd choice as apart from a couple of seasons at Ealing as lead coach, his main experiences have been as a forwards coach.
He certainly didn't alst long as part of Jones's England set up and has flitted between jobs and is currently at Oyonnax in Pro D2
I just wonder if he fitted Falcon'ss budget allowance for the job?

Used to coach Barking as well (who just finished bottom of Counties 2 Essex - level 9 league on -3pts)

[Margin__Walker]

Codling not actually confirmed yet by the club. Just a rugbypass article linking him.

Albeit it probably is true.

[SaintK]

Codling not actually confirmed yet by the club. Just a rugbypass article linking him.

Albeit it probably is true.

It is, my mate was speaking to him at the weekend

[SaintK]

Alex Codling named as new head coach at Falcons.
An odd choice as apart from a couple of seasons at Ealing as lead coach, his main experiences have been as a forwards coach.
He certainly didn't alst long as part of Jones's England set up and has flitted between jobs and is currently at Oyonnax in Pro D2
I just wonder if he fitted Falcon'ss budget allowance for the job?

Used to coach Barking as well (who just finished bottom of Counties 2 Essex - level 9 league on -3pts)

So did Kevin Sorrell if I recall correctly?
Amazing what happens when a club goes into absolute freefall having previously"bought" themselves success
See Staines RFC as well

[Raggs]

Jack Willis staying with Toulouse until 2026. He is available for the world cup though. So a couple of years in France, but back again for 2027 if he fancies it perhaps.

[JM2K6]

Fascinated by this Charlie Ewels move to the Bulls. Wonder how he'll get on.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Jack Willis staying with Toulouse until 2026. He is available for the world cup though. So a couple of years in France, but back again for 2027 if he fancies it perhaps.

We know Borthwick wants changes to what's permissible. A bit shitty the RFU aren't telling Borthers to do one in this or letting the players know what the situation will be ahead of signing contracts.

[SaintK]

Fascinated by this Charlie Ewels move to the Bulls. Wonder how he'll get on.

Short term contract to get game time so he can push for a RWC squad place...............God forbid!
Back in Bath colours for 23/24 season

[Raggs]

Jack Willis staying with Toulouse until 2026. He is available for the world cup though. So a couple of years in France, but back again for 2027 if he fancies it perhaps.

We know Borthwick wants changes to what's permissible. A bit shitty the RFU aren't telling Borthers to do one in this or letting the players know what the situation will be ahead of signing contracts.

Jack has a 2+1 contract in place, if the rules haven't changed he can come back in 2 years time with plenty of chance to fight for a place. If they have changed, he can sit in France.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It's hardly just Willis.

I suspect, hope, much of this is they haven't yet agreed the new model for English rugby from RFU investments into the EPS/Clubs to the format of the league. And so it is simply up in the air, just it's a shame that now we've had a few clubs go bust, that the money isn't growing much in the game and there's the ongoing impact of Covid we're seeing the RFU chase circumstances right now rather than being able to set the scene.

I can see why the RFU and the clubs would still be thrashing an agreement out, it's just leaving some players to take a punt on where they look to play in a way that confirms the game really isn't too fussed about the players. Or maybe they know what they'll do and they're just waiting to confirm in the hope as many players as possible stay in England as cheaply as possible in a way that wouldn't happen if Scabnose pushes his request through, that would be a bit shitty, but it is the RFU

[Margin__Walker]

Isn't the RFU position just that there is no change to the policy? Good luck to Willis, as its clearly a personal decision, but being able to play for England next year is going to be a bonus for him if there is any change. It shouldn't have formed the basis of his decision here.

Always feel the exodus thing is overplayed generally. Sure there are a few going after the RWC, but there always will be at the end of a cycle. You'll probably get a few more leaving this cycle than last, but we're not yet in the position of losing a wave established internationals in their prime.

[JM2K6]

It's basically Willis + the Exeter lot, right? I'm not seeing the exodus either.

Willis I can completely understand, he's been burned by the Wasps collapse and his own personal injury history.

[SaintK]

Chris Ashton retiring at the end of the season. Been playing top class rugby since he was 18, outstanding winger when he was at the top of his game.
Hope he gets 2 more tries and hits the 100 mark in the Premiership before he goes
https://www.rugbydump.com/news/the-mos ... irement/

[Slick]

Also, I'm not sure I know of any player that hasn't gone to France and absolutely loved it, seems a great thing to do for a few seasons in a short career whatever your ambitions.

Apart from Sexton, but that probably says more about him than them.

[inactionman]

Also, I'm not sure I know of any player that hasn't gone to France and absolutely loved it, seems a great thing to do for a few seasons in a short career whatever your ambitions.

Apart from Sexton, but that probably says more about him than them.

Nick Abendanon thrived at Clermont - thought he could have had a decent international career but never quite made the jump, so instead went to France and, by all accounts, loved it.

[inactionman]

It's basically Willis + the Exeter lot, right? I'm not seeing the exodus either.

Willis I can completely understand, he's been burned by the Wasps collapse and his own personal injury history.

Marchant as well.

[sockwithaticket]

Exactly, he's a bit of an outlier.

The so-called Exodus is mostly speculative in nature or deliberately spinning end of career cash grabs as something more insidious and existential for English rugby.

I do think that if the policy was changed to allow players to ply their trade abroad and still play for England that the offers would more or less dry up. Part of the value in the contracts being offered to a Cowan-Dickie or a Willis is their full availability for the Top14 given the RFU's current position. If they were to start missing club games during nternational periods, not to mention being more run down and injury prone due to playing games of that intensity close together, their value decreases.

[JM2K6]

It's basically Willis + the Exeter lot, right? I'm not seeing the exodus either.

Willis I can completely understand, he's been burned by the Wasps collapse and his own personal injury history.

Marchant as well.

Marchant already went for a jaunt in NZ and wasn't exactly well treated by Eddie (or Borthwick tbf) so as annoying as it is to lose him, he's obviously a guy who wants to experience more of the rugby world and didn't think his England career had much in the way of a future.

[SaintK]

It's basically Willis + the Exeter lot, right? I'm not seeing the exodus either.

Willis I can completely understand, he's been burned by the Wasps collapse and his own personal injury history.

True
And it's really just Willis and LC-D that would be missed from an England selection point of view

[sockwithaticket]

Also, I'm not sure I know of any player that hasn't gone to France and absolutely loved it, seems a great thing to do for a few seasons in a short career whatever your ambitions.

Apart from Sexton, but that probably says more about him than them.

Rhys Webb was trying to get out of his Toulon contract almost as soon as he signed it and JD2 seemed pretty keen to come back from Clermont, but then the Welsh don't seem to travel very well. Jamie Roberts is probably the only one who's strayed particularly far from the Severn and done well. The other Welsh leavers who can stick it out don't seem to venture further than the West Country.

[Raggs]

LCD will be a bit old for the next rwc though wouldn't he? Maybe still useful, but maybe not needed.

And considering we just lost two clubs, I'd say it's not surprising there's less room for players at the moment.

[Slick]

Also, I'm not sure I know of any player that hasn't gone to France and absolutely loved it, seems a great thing to do for a few seasons in a short career whatever your ambitions.

Apart from Sexton, but that probably says more about him than them.

Rhys Webb was trying to get out of his Toulon contract almost as soon as he signed it and JD2 seemed pretty keen to come back from Clermont, but then the Welsh don't seem to travel very well. Jamie Roberts is probably the only one who's strayed particularly far from the Severn and done well. The other Welsh leavers who can stick it out don't seem to venture further than the West Country.

I think we are slowly getting to the crux of this.

As an aside, I'd love more Scottish players to get out there for a couple of seasons, but it's obviously a very different situation here

[JM2K6]

Also, I'm not sure I know of any player that hasn't gone to France and absolutely loved it, seems a great thing to do for a few seasons in a short career whatever your ambitions.

Apart from Sexton, but that probably says more about him than them.

Rhys Webb was trying to get out of his Toulon contract almost as soon as he signed it and JD2 seemed pretty keen to come back from Clermont, but then the Welsh don't seem to travel very well. Jamie Roberts is probably the only one who's strayed particularly far from the Severn and done well. The other Welsh leavers who can stick it out don't seem to venture further than the West Country.

Roberts made money, but I can't in good conscience say he did well outside of Wales for anyone...

[sockwithaticket]

Also, I'm not sure I know of any player that hasn't gone to France and absolutely loved it, seems a great thing to do for a few seasons in a short career whatever your ambitions.

Apart from Sexton, but that probably says more about him than them.

Rhys Webb was trying to get out of his Toulon contract almost as soon as he signed it and JD2 seemed pretty keen to come back from Clermont, but then the Welsh don't seem to travel very well. Jamie Roberts is probably the only one who's strayed particularly far from the Severn and done well. The other Welsh leavers who can stick it out don't seem to venture further than the West Country.

Roberts made money, but I can't in good conscience say he did well outside of Wales for anyone...

By doing well I mean, was able to stick around and put in some effort (albeit not with the impact that might have been desired) without apparently being homesick and needing to slink back home asap.

[SaintK]

Rhys Webb was trying to get out of his Toulon contract almost as soon as he signed it and JD2 seemed pretty keen to come back from Clermont, but then the Welsh don't seem to travel very well. Jamie Roberts is probably the only one who's strayed particularly far from the Severn and done well. The other Welsh leavers who can stick it out don't seem to venture further than the West Country.

Roberts made money, but I can't in good conscience say he did well outside of Wales for anyone...

By doing well I mean, was able to stick around and put in some effort (albeit not with the impact that might have been desired) without apparently being homesick and needing to slink back home asap.

Will be interesting to see how Dan Biggar and his family settle in Toulon. If I remember correctly Rhys Webb's family were very homesick and didn't settle in at all.

[sockwithaticket]

Roberts made money, but I can't in good conscience say he did well outside of Wales for anyone...

By doing well I mean, was able to stick around and put in some effort (albeit not with the impact that might have been desired) without apparently being homesick and needing to slink back home asap.

Will be interesting to see how Dan Biggar and his family settle in Toulon. If I remember correctly Rhys Webb's family were very homesick and didn't settle in at all.

Especially coming from Saints who seem to have a pretty good rep for being welcoming and involving players' families.

[inactionman]

In Webb's defence, language barrier and no family on doorstep/within a relatively short dash can be a bit overwhelming for young families with young kids.

[Kawazaki]

Unless the Premiership clubs get CVC out then I fear the league doesn't stand a hope of surviving.

Could the clubs just leave the Premiership and start something new without CVC or do they own 27% of whatever the clubs get commercially regardless?

And does the deal have a time limit or are they in hock for ever?

[Paddington Bear]

Tend to agree about the exodus being overdone. If anything Nowell going shows the system works - he’s done in an England shirt, go collect a pay cheque with our best wishes

[Happyhooker]

Watson???

[sockwithaticket]

Watson???

At 29 he's another who's no certainty for the next world cup. Factor in his unfortunate injury history and it makes sense for him to chase a final big contract after the world cup. Especially when so many younger players are gunning for back three positions. Arundell, Hassell-Collins, Freeman, Murley, Malins, Loader and Radwan are obviously the main contenders for any vacated spot and there will surely be others to emerge over the next world cup cycle.

[Raggs]

Watson???

At 29 he's another who's no certainty for the next world cup. Factor in his unfortunate injury history and it makes sense for him to chase a final big contract after the world cup. Especially when so many younger players are gunning for back three positions. Arundell, Hassell-Collins, Freeman, Murley, Malins, Loader and Radwan are obviously the main contenders for any vacated spot and there will surely be others to emerge over the next world cup cycle.

Yeah, Watson seems like an obvious case of getting in a world cup, then picking up some big paychecks for a few seasons before retiring. How many 33+ year old back 3 are playing for tier 1 sides in world cups? Especially as pointed out, we've got a glut of young good players coming up behind.

[inactionman]

Watson???

At 29 he's another who's no certainty for the next world cup. Factor in his unfortunate injury history and it makes sense for him to chase a final big contract after the world cup. Especially when so many younger players are gunning for back three positions. Arundell, Hassell-Collins, Freeman, Murley, Malins, Loader and Radwan are obviously the main contenders for any vacated spot and there will surely be others to emerge over the next world cup cycle.

Yeah, Watson seems like an obvious case of getting in a world cup, then picking up some big paychecks for a few seasons before retiring. How many 33+ year old back 3 are playing for tier 1 sides in world cups? Especially as pointed out, we've got a glut of young good players coming up behind.

Perhaps obvious to say, but it's not a decision he'll likely have to actively make - it'll be made for him, if age and injury (his Achilles heel, pardoning unintentional pun) catch up with him in the early next WC cycle and the young tyros take their chances.

On a separate but beautifully segued related note, Pat Lam chimes in on salary cap:

“You’re killing the reputation of the Premiership,” said Lam. “I know people say it’s not fair [for some clubs] but we’re keeping everything down at the expense of the quality of the competition. I believe English players shouldn’t be selected from overseas but if the salary cap is £5m then players will leave. You can’t have it both ways.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... istols-lam

It is, of course, easy to say that when you're head coach of a team backed by Steve Lansdown. I think Steve Diamond or Lee Blackett might be able to offer some contrasting views.

He also suggests a draft system for players out of academies, which is a more interesting point.

“The academy boundary system we have is crazy. We’re the only country in the world that has it. If you look at the top 100 schools in the country, I think Harlequins have got 22, London Irish have 16 and Saracens have 14. We have two and Exeter has one. At the moment, it’s a massively uneven playing field.

“You can’t survive on a £5m cap and have the boundary system you have. If you want to keep it at £5m you’ve got to open up those boundaries. The second idea is that everyone picks five players from within their boundaries and then there’s a draft. Then it’s pretty much guaranteed the top 100 18-year-olds will go into Premiership teams every year. Some guys are missing out on genuine opportunities because they’re not in the right area. It’s a late development sport. You can’t actually tell if a 17-year-old is actually going to make it. It’s not like football.”