NPR

Line6 HXFX wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:02 am James Haskell is furious. Seeing him rant and rave about Eddie's Sacking is sublime.

I mean if it wasn't for Itoji cheating in the lineout last year, England would have lost, against one if the poorest Wales sides ever sent to Twickenham.

Hopefully these sackings will break up the world cup cycle, where teams are just building for that, and nothing else really matters.
Priority for players and coaches seems to be
World Cup.
Lions Tours.
Six Nations.
Autumn Internationals.
Summer tours.

Disband the Lions Tours and Summer tours.
Basically four of the things Northern Hemisphere/ Six Nations sides do, is in most part about the Southern Hemisphere and global game.

Thats a hell of a lot of wear and tear and charity work.

Yeah, I think the deification of the World Cup is at the core of the disconnect between fans and team.

From a player and coach perspective, I can see why the focus is on the World Cup; any competitive person must crave winning the biggest prize of all.

But from a fan’s perspective; I’d definitely prefer regularly winning six nations and autumn internationals instead of winning one 4 year tournament.

Ultimately it’s about going to a pub or office or coming to a rugby forum and not having to listen to Welsh and Irish fans saying they’re a better team.

No one thinks England are a good team, yet we got to the final. It just doesn’t matter to me as a fan, and it certainly doesn’t matter to other rugby playing nations.

Focus on winning, entertaining and let me rock up to the office and have the upper hand in a rugby dick waving comp for a change.

Dicks need waving more frequently than every 4 years!

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:27 pm It should also be noted that South Africa were very, very good. It wasn't just about the pack and the "bomb squad", Mapimpi, de Allende, Am and Kolbe were, for my money, four of the best players in the tournament. That Savvo backline was terrific.

They didn't look that flash when beaten easily by the ABs 23-13 in pool play.

Line6 HXFX wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:02 am James Haskell is furious. Seeing him rant and rave about Eddie's Sacking is sublime.

I mean if it wasn't for Itoji cheating in the lineout last year, England would have lost, against one if the poorest Wales sides ever sent to Twickenham.

Hopefully these sackings will break up the world cup cycle, where teams are just building for that, and nothing else really matters.
Priority for players and coaches seems to be
World Cup.
Lions Tours.
Six Nations.
Autumn Internationals.
Summer tours.

Disband the Lions Tours and Summer tours.
Basically four of the things Northern Hemisphere/ Six Nations sides do, is in most part about the Southern Hemisphere and global game.

Thats a hell of a lot of wear and tear and charity work.

Presumably you wouldn't object if the SH teams also disbanded their charity Spring tours?

Certain Navigator wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:50 am Presumably you wouldn't object if the SH teams also disbanded their charity Spring tours?

The problem is that the SH teams just make so much money from them.

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:58 am

Certain Navigator wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:50 am Presumably you wouldn't object if the SH teams also disbanded their charity Spring tours?

The problem is that the SH teams just make so much money from them.

I didn’t believe the match day revenue was split.

“Build a bigger stadium” …

Certain Navigator wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:48 am

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:27 pm It should also be noted that South Africa were very, very good. It wasn't just about the pack and the "bomb squad", Mapimpi, de Allende, Am and Kolbe were, for my money, four of the best players in the tournament. That Savvo backline was terrific.

They didn't look that flash when beaten easily by the ABs 23-13 in pool play.

Credit where it's due, New Zealand looked very good in their first game.

South Africa looked even better in the last game of the tournament.

Random1 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:05 pm

Line6 HXFX wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:02 am James Haskell is furious. Seeing him rant and rave about Eddie's Sacking is sublime.

I mean if it wasn't for Itoji cheating in the lineout last year, England would have lost, against one if the poorest Wales sides ever sent to Twickenham.

Hopefully these sackings will break up the world cup cycle, where teams are just building for that, and nothing else really matters.
Priority for players and coaches seems to be
World Cup.
Lions Tours.
Six Nations.
Autumn Internationals.
Summer tours.

Disband the Lions Tours and Summer tours.
Basically four of the things Northern Hemisphere/ Six Nations sides do, is in most part about the Southern Hemisphere and global game.

Thats a hell of a lot of wear and tear and charity work.

Yeah, I think the deification of the World Cup is at the core of the disconnect between fans and team.

From a player and coach perspective, I can see why the focus is on the World Cup; any competitive person must crave winning the biggest prize of all.

But from a fan’s perspective; I’d definitely prefer regularly winning six nations and autumn internationals instead of winning one 4 year tournament.

Ultimately it’s about going to a pub or office or coming to a rugby forum and not having to listen to Welsh and Irish fans saying they’re a better team.

No one thinks England are a good team, yet we got to the final. It just doesn’t matter to me as a fan, and it certainly doesn’t matter to other rugby playing nations.

Focus on winning, entertaining and let me rock up to the office and have the upper hand in a rugby dick waving comp for a change.

Dicks need waving more frequently than every 4 years!

Yeah, I agree with most of this. WC doesn’t really get me very excited, although that might be partly due to being Scottish.

I’d much rather just have the 6N and the occasional 3 test tour to/from the SH teams

Certain Navigator wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:50 am

Line6 HXFX wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:02 am James Haskell is furious. Seeing him rant and rave about Eddie's Sacking is sublime.

I mean if it wasn't for Itoji cheating in the lineout last year, England would have lost, against one if the poorest Wales sides ever sent to Twickenham.

Hopefully these sackings will break up the world cup cycle, where teams are just building for that, and nothing else really matters.
Priority for players and coaches seems to be
World Cup.
Lions Tours.
Six Nations.
Autumn Internationals.
Summer tours.

Disband the Lions Tours and Summer tours.
Basically four of the things Northern Hemisphere/ Six Nations sides do, is in most part about the Southern Hemisphere and global game.

Thats a hell of a lot of wear and tear and charity work.

Presumably you wouldn't object if the SH teams also disbanded their charity Spring tours?

There are too many international fixtures. Due to the physical game rugby is they should consider alternate year tours so you only tour every other year. I would be tempted to disband the Lions.

petej wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:26 pm
I would be tempted to disband the Lions.

Too big of a cash cow, until that changes the Lions are an ongoing concern. Zero chance of being culled.

edit, also it's the highest honour to play for or against the Lions, I wouldn't take that out of the game. The only thing I'd change is to find a way to involve France - not as Lions players, but as opposition.

Slick wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:11 pm

Random1 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:05 pm

Line6 HXFX wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:02 am James Haskell is furious. Seeing him rant and rave about Eddie's Sacking is sublime.

I mean if it wasn't for Itoji cheating in the lineout last year, England would have lost, against one if the poorest Wales sides ever sent to Twickenham.

Hopefully these sackings will break up the world cup cycle, where teams are just building for that, and nothing else really matters.
Priority for players and coaches seems to be
World Cup.
Lions Tours.
Six Nations.
Autumn Internationals.
Summer tours.

Disband the Lions Tours and Summer tours.
Basically four of the things Northern Hemisphere/ Six Nations sides do, is in most part about the Southern Hemisphere and global game.

Thats a hell of a lot of wear and tear and charity work.

Yeah, I think the deification of the World Cup is at the core of the disconnect between fans and team.

From a player and coach perspective, I can see why the focus is on the World Cup; any competitive person must crave winning the biggest prize of all.

But from a fan’s perspective; I’d definitely prefer regularly winning six nations and autumn internationals instead of winning one 4 year tournament.

Ultimately it’s about going to a pub or office or coming to a rugby forum and not having to listen to Welsh and Irish fans saying they’re a better team.

No one thinks England are a good team, yet we got to the final. It just doesn’t matter to me as a fan, and it certainly doesn’t matter to other rugby playing nations.

Focus on winning, entertaining and let me rock up to the office and have the upper hand in a rugby dick waving comp for a change.

Dicks need waving more frequently than every 4 years!

Yeah, I agree with most of this. WC doesn’t really get me very excited, although that might be partly due to being Scottish.

I’d much rather just have the 6N and the occasional 3 test tour to/from the SH teams

I worked out a little while ago when people were defending the 2021 5th place 6N finish and Eddie's "It's all about the world cup" stance that a full world cup run (from pools to final) constitutes about 17% of the test matches a typical tier 6N team will play in a four year world cup cycle. There's simply too much rugby for the world cup to be the most important thing.

NZ spent a good chunk of time as undisputed number 1 team in the world without holding the trophy and as an England supporter the period between the '03 and '07 tournaments means I'm acutely aware of how hollow and meaningless the term 'world champions' can be outside the run time of the particular world cup it was achieved during.

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:29 pm

petej wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:26 pm
I would be tempted to disband the Lions.

Too big of a cash cow, until that changes the Lions are an ongoing concern. Zero chance of being culled.

edit, also it's the highest honour to play for or against the Lions, I wouldn't take that out of the game. The only thing I'd change is to find a way to involve France - not as Lions players, but as opposition.

I’ve said this before and it’s been seen as borderline blasphemous, and maybe it is as a result of my rugby experience being entirely in the pro era, but I honestly do not care about the Lions and wouldn’t lose any sleep if they never toured again.
Lions memories for me are O’Gara having his face redecorated, Hill losing his knee, O’Driscoll being speared, Burger eye gouging, O’Gara and that pen, Sonny Bill’s red and then Rassie. It just seems to me an excuse for the hosting nation to behave appallingly and the rest of us to have a debate in the run up in the pub. I’d much rather England’s best players didn’t travel.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:58 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:41 pm The success of the 2019 RWC run hinged on a number of longshots coming in. And they did come in, right up until his lack of contingency planning at 3 and 9 was brutally exposed. In fact, it's difficult to know how more wrong the final could have gone. I've not watched it again or even highlights of it so maybe somebody else can summarise?!

We got lucky with not facing France, though we did batter them last time. Argentina, Australia, NZ were all dismissed in very impressive displays. Australia he changed gameplan for and it paid off big time; NZ was a superbly organised display that made a mockery of them.

The final we had some bad luck with Sinckler …

I’m starting to think Mehrtens was bang on!

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:34 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:29 pm

petej wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:26 pm
I would be tempted to disband the Lions.

Too big of a cash cow, until that changes the Lions are an ongoing concern. Zero chance of being culled.

edit, also it's the highest honour to play for or against the Lions, I wouldn't take that out of the game. The only thing I'd change is to find a way to involve France - not as Lions players, but as opposition.

I’ve said this before and it’s been seen as borderline blasphemous, and maybe it is as a result of my rugby experience being entirely in the pro era, but I honestly do not care about the Lions and wouldn’t lose any sleep if they never toured again.
Lions memories for me are O’Gara having his face redecorated, Hill losing his knee, O’Driscoll being speared, Burger eye gouging, O’Gara and that pen, Sonny Bill’s red and then Rassie. It just seems to me an excuse for the hosting nation to behave appallingly and the rest of us to have a debate in the run up in the pub. I’d much rather England’s best players didn’t travel.

Lions tours have long been an unpleasant circus, although I don't think that's down solely to the host nations.

Yourmoaner

We put 39 points on Argentina, 40 on Australia, dominated NZ from the start and were comfortable winners even with a couple of tries chalked off, so yeah I'm comfortable with my choice of language there - and that's some seriously disingenuous editing of my post with regards to the comment on Sinckler.

As for France, we played them earlier in the year and absolutely smashed them 44-8.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:34 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:29 pm

petej wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:26 pm
I would be tempted to disband the Lions.

Too big of a cash cow, until that changes the Lions are an ongoing concern. Zero chance of being culled.

edit, also it's the highest honour to play for or against the Lions, I wouldn't take that out of the game. The only thing I'd change is to find a way to involve France - not as Lions players, but as opposition.

I’ve said this before and it’s been seen as borderline blasphemous, and maybe it is as a result of my rugby experience being entirely in the pro era, but I honestly do not care about the Lions and wouldn’t lose any sleep if they never toured again.
Lions memories for me are O’Gara having his face redecorated, Hill losing his knee, O’Driscoll being speared, Burger eye gouging, O’Gara and that pen, Sonny Bill’s red and then Rassie. It just seems to me an excuse for the hosting nation to behave appallingly and the rest of us to have a debate in the run up in the pub. I’d much rather England’s best players didn’t travel.

The guys playing now are in the same boat, their rugby experience has been entirely in the pro era - tell them that the Lions means fuck all.

Tell Marcus Smith he'll never start a Lions test, tell any young Kiwi (Savvo/Aussie) that the once in a 12 year cycle has been taken away and that it's all meaningless to you, so it should be to them.

Tichtheid wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:10 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:34 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:29 pm


Too big of a cash cow, until that changes the Lions are an ongoing concern. Zero chance of being culled.

edit, also it's the highest honour to play for or against the Lions, I wouldn't take that out of the game. The only thing I'd change is to find a way to involve France - not as Lions players, but as opposition.

I’ve said this before and it’s been seen as borderline blasphemous, and maybe it is as a result of my rugby experience being entirely in the pro era, but I honestly do not care about the Lions and wouldn’t lose any sleep if they never toured again.
Lions memories for me are O’Gara having his face redecorated, Hill losing his knee, O’Driscoll being speared, Burger eye gouging, O’Gara and that pen, Sonny Bill’s red and then Rassie. It just seems to me an excuse for the hosting nation to behave appallingly and the rest of us to have a debate in the run up in the pub. I’d much rather England’s best players didn’t travel.

The guys playing now are in the same boat, their rugby experience has been entirely in the pro era - tell them that the Lions means fuck all.

Tell Marcus Smith he'll never start a Lions test, tell any young Kiwi (Savvo/Aussie) that the once in a 12 year cycle has been taken away and that it's all meaningless to you, so it should be to them.

I would be genuinely very interested to ask them this question behind closed doors to get the reaction. I think I know what the reaction would be if I added in hypothetical 2) the sponsors have pulled out.

These things are all personal but I do not think for *most* England fans and players the Lions is the ultimate. It’s why Warburton’s commentary has become an inside joke/drinking game for some.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:58 pm Yourmoaner

We put 39 points on Argentina, 40 on Australia, dominated NZ from the start and were comfortable winners even with a couple of tries chalked off, so yeah I'm comfortable with my choice of language there - and that's some seriously disingenuous editing of my post with regards to the comment on Sinckler.

As for France, we played them earlier in the year and absolutely smashed them 44-8.

You tell me.



Roar !!!!!

Quality posting

I think I was just made a “mockery of “

Hask really needs to let it go.

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:29 pm

petej wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:26 pm
I would be tempted to disband the Lions.

Too big of a cash cow, until that changes the Lions are an ongoing concern. Zero chance of being culled.

edit, also it's the highest honour to play for or against the Lions, I wouldn't take that out of the game. The only thing I'd change is to find a way to involve France - not as Lions players, but as opposition.

It's not much of a cash cow for England, it is for some of our competitors, essentially making participation doubly stupid

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:13 am

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:29 pm

petej wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:26 pm
I would be tempted to disband the Lions.

Too big of a cash cow, until that changes the Lions are an ongoing concern. Zero chance of being culled.

edit, also it's the highest honour to play for or against the Lions, I wouldn't take that out of the game. The only thing I'd change is to find a way to involve France - not as Lions players, but as opposition.

It's not much of a cash cow for England, it is for some of our competitors, essentially making participation doubly stupid

The home unions get paid per player, the players themselves get a big old wedge for playing for the Lions, plus, being a Lion means your negotiation stakes rise for the next round of contract talks.
The clubs always say "B&I Lion" ... so and so, in a bid to attract audiences, the clubs know the pull players have when they achieve international and Lions status.

The Lions are a huge pull for the fans and it remains the highest honour for a player - more so than in a world cup, where you play with the same guys you've played with since the age of 15 or so, with the Lions you get to play with guys you've respected from elsewhere, it's a unique entity.

Tichtheid wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:27 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:13 am

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:29 pm


Too big of a cash cow, until that changes the Lions are an ongoing concern. Zero chance of being culled.

edit, also it's the highest honour to play for or against the Lions, I wouldn't take that out of the game. The only thing I'd change is to find a way to involve France - not as Lions players, but as opposition.

It's not much of a cash cow for England, it is for some of our competitors, essentially making participation doubly stupid

The home unions get paid per player, the players themselves get a big old wedge for playing for the Lions, plus, being a Lion means your negotiation stakes rise for the next round of contract talks.
The clubs always say "B&I Lion" ... so and so, in a bid to attract audiences, the clubs know the pull players have when they achieve international and Lions status.

The Lions are a huge pull for the fans and it remains the highest honour for a player - more so than in a world cup, where you play with the same guys you've played with since the age of 15 or so, with the Lions you get to play with guys you've respected from elsewhere, it's a unique entity.

I don’t think this stacks up. Jonny Wilkinson is still one of the few rugby players who’d be recognised walking down the street anywhere, Matt Dawson is on Question of Sport etc because they won a world cup. That is the ultimate and you can tell by the recognition it gave that team within and outside of the sport, and the way they’ve dined out on it.

The Lions is unique, undoubtedly, but if you offered most of us two out of three of:
Lions tour win
World cup win
Grand slam

I think most would take the latter two.
I am very curious what will happen to the Lions. The last series was horrifically damaging to the ‘product’, and there’s a good chance they’ll spank the Aussies in not much of a contest next time. Will it retain the commercial draw?

When you say ‘us’, you mean you.

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:41 am When you say ‘us’, you mean you.

I’ve been clear for me its a no brainer, but I caveated the post with ‘I think’ as whilst it would tally with what I hear and see these things are personal, as I’ve also posted.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:46 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:41 am When you say ‘us’, you mean you.

I’ve been clear for me its a no brainer, but I caveated the post with ‘I think’ as whilst it would tally with what I hear and see these things are personal, as I’ve also posted.

You see what you want to see.

Tichtheid wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:27 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:13 am

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:29 pm


Too big of a cash cow, until that changes the Lions are an ongoing concern. Zero chance of being culled.

edit, also it's the highest honour to play for or against the Lions, I wouldn't take that out of the game. The only thing I'd change is to find a way to involve France - not as Lions players, but as opposition.

It's not much of a cash cow for England, it is for some of our competitors, essentially making participation doubly stupid

The home unions get paid per player, the players themselves get a big old wedge for playing for the Lions, plus, being a Lion means your negotiation stakes rise for the next round of contract talks.
The clubs always say "B&I Lion" ... so and so, in a bid to attract audiences, the clubs know the pull players have when they achieve international and Lions status.

The Lions are a huge pull for the fans and it remains the highest honour for a player - more so than in a world cup, where you play with the same guys you've played with since the age of 15 or so, with the Lions you get to play with guys you've respected from elsewhere, it's a unique entity.

Not really that much per player, and it's not like we couldn't be earning money doing other things instead. And yes it raises profiles which brings in more money, but it also raises wage demands which costs more. Yes it's a unique thing, but that has nothing to do with it raises far, far more money for our competitors than us. We can of course put aside some of the recent losses on Lions tours, there hopefully will not always be a pandemic.

Mind that I hope all this would lead to an end of the Lions, or at least an end of players in the England EPS being selected, isn't too likely. At some point I'd suppose the home nations will get a cut of the TV deal with the host nations and that would make the whole much more financially viable, although the hosts will then complain to WR they need more funding and that could well see distribution of WC revenues still more in favour of tier 1 sides at the expense of the global game

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:47 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:46 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:41 am When you say ‘us’, you mean you.

I’ve been clear for me its a no brainer, but I caveated the post with ‘I think’ as whilst it would tally with what I hear and see these things are personal, as I’ve also posted.

You see what you want to see.

Yeah well I see someone being a little bitch

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:38 am
I don’t think this stacks up. Jonny Wilkinson is still one of the few rugby players who’d be recognised walking down the street anywhere, Matt Dawson is on Question of Sport etc because they won a world cup. That is the ultimate and you can tell by the recognition it gave that team within and outside of the sport, and the way they’ve dined out on it.

The Lions is unique, undoubtedly, but if you offered most of us two out of three of:
Lions tour win
World cup win
Grand slam

I think most would take the latter two.
I am very curious what will happen to the Lions. The last series was horrifically damaging to the ‘product’, and there’s a good chance they’ll spank the Aussies in not much of a contest next time. Will it retain the commercial draw?

There was talk of the Lions being in danger because they kept losing, now it's in danger because they win?
It's not going away as long as shirts are being sold etc and sponsorship is raised

Anyway, this gives me the opportunity to relate a Doddie Weir story that was circulating after his death. Weir was talking at a dinner at Twickenham, presumably in the run up to a Calcutta Cup match. Brian Moore and Dawson spoke about how great England were and Dawson even showed his RWC winners medal.

Doddie stood up and said, "My name is Doddie Weir and I've won fuck all."
The place was in an uproar.

He then put his hand up and said, "Hands up anyone who has scored two tries against the All Blacks.....in the one match"
The place went ballistic.

Puts him right up there with Topsy Ojo. Legends.

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:05 pm Puts him right up there with Topsy Ojo. Legends.

I’m still waiting for the hilarious story about Matt Dawson speaking at a dinner at Murrayfield and asking anyone who had won a World Cup to put their hands up. I’m sure a Murrayfield audience would have loved that.

Tichtheid wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:15 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:38 am
I don’t think this stacks up. Jonny Wilkinson is still one of the few rugby players who’d be recognised walking down the street anywhere, Matt Dawson is on Question of Sport etc because they won a world cup. That is the ultimate and you can tell by the recognition it gave that team within and outside of the sport, and the way they’ve dined out on it.

The Lions is unique, undoubtedly, but if you offered most of us two out of three of:
Lions tour win
World cup win
Grand slam

I think most would take the latter two.
I am very curious what will happen to the Lions. The last series was horrifically damaging to the ‘product’, and there’s a good chance they’ll spank the Aussies in not much of a contest next time. Will it retain the commercial draw?

There was talk of the Lions being in danger because they kept losing, now it's in danger because they win?
It's not going away as long as shirts are being sold etc and sponsorship is raised

Anyway, this gives me the opportunity to relate a Doddie Weir story that was circulating after his death. Weir was talking at a dinner at Twickenham, presumably in the run up to a Calcutta Cup match. Brian Moore and Dawson spoke about how great England were and Dawson even showed his RWC winners medal.

Doddie stood up and said, "My name is Doddie Weir and I've won fuck all."
The place was in an uproar.

He then put his hand up and said, "Hands up anyone who has scored two tries against the All Blacks.....in the one match"
The place went ballistic.

It’s a great story about a great man but it isn’t really relevant, to paraphrase Will McKenzie

Well, two sides of a discussion had been stated, there wasn’t much more to add, so I moved on

There’s certainly a lot of grumpiness on the bored.

Santas Claus is watching all of you !!!

Ymx wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:10 pm There’s certainly a lot of grumpiness on the bored.

Santas Claus is watching all of you !!!

With the price of energy, there's a fair few that would welcome a free lump of coal in their stocking.