Another mass shooting in the US

[Fangle]

The average starting salary for cops is ridiculously low. They won’t attract the best, when for instance the city of Atlanta is at $40,000, and they pay the best, other than the state. Smaller towns start at under $35,000. The salaries are going up, but they struggle to get decent recruits, especially in this charged anti-police atmosphere. Atlanta are giving intensive de-escalation courses.

[Calculon]

Yes, he initially refused. Your point?

Since you are making the claim, why don't you provide a link showing how long he waited between hearing the police asking him, and him putting his hands out of the window.

[Calculon]

“I’m a Lieutenant in the Army!”

No one cares bro, put your dumb hands outside the window.

He already had his hands outside the window for ages when he said he was a lieutenent, and he said he was a lieutenent in response to the cop asking him what he does in the army. FFS you're as bad as fatcat on this

[notfatcat]

Yes, he initially refused. Your point?

Since you are making the claim, why don't you provide a link showing how long he waited between hearing the police asking him, and him putting his hands out of the window.

Find it yourself. It's on the guy's own livestream video. I can't remember which site I saw it on a fortnight ago so do your own Googling.

[notfatcat]

“I’m a Lieutenant in the Army!”

No one cares bro, put your dumb hands outside the window.

He already had his hands outside the window for ages when he said he was a lieutenent, and he said he was a lieutenent in response to the cop asking him what he does in the army. FFS you're as bad as fatcat on this

What is it you think I'm saying which is so bad?

[Kiwias]

Rinkals, the other poster (Calculon?) stated that the army guy complied, which he did... eventually. He left out the (salient) facts that the guy also ignored the police requests/instructions to 1) pull over, 2) put his hands out of the window, and 3) get out of the vehicle prior to eventually complying. Ignoring the police is going to put them on high alert and significantly raise the temperature of the situation - surely that's not even debatable? There's no doubt that the one police officer acted like a right twat and was seriously unprofessional, and he's been deservedly fired. I don't think it's at all controversial or hard to accept that both parties were at fault.

You too omit the salient fact that he put on his hazard lamps and slowed to well under the speed limit until he found a well-lit place to stop, rather than on the side of a poorly-lit road. There was no way to convey his reason for doing so until he had stopped, at which point he remained calm and tried to talk to the police, with his hands visible and then out of the window. I am not sure how he was meant to keep his hands out of the window and get out of the car, requiring him to undo his seatbelt, simultaneously.

I suspect he thought that the uniform and the fact that he is a serving lieutenant in the armed forces would have bought him a little understanding and courtesy. He was wrong.

I'm not doubting the guy's good intentions but he was wrong to do that. Plus it took him a while to obey the instructions to place his hands outside the window.

He was right in assuming he was in danger if he got out of the car. Know how we know that? The fat cop confirmed it.

The police knew he was serving military as soon as they approached the car but they ignored that, affording him neither respect nor courtesy.

[notfatcat]

Well we both agree the cop (at least one of them) was a wanker. So, whereas I think the guy was also at fault you're saying that his behaviour was textbook stuff or something? Are you saying that the best thing to do is to ignore police instructions until it suits you? (not you personally)

[Kiwias]

Well we both agree the cop (at least one of them) was a wanker. So, whereas I think the guy was also at fault you're saying that his behaviour was textbook stuff or something? Are you saying that the best thing to do is to ignore police instructions until it suits you? (not you personally)

He took the less bad of the two choices in deciding to drive slowly to find a well-lit place to stop, perhaps assuming that it would be obvious to the police that he was not trying to escape. And I think that the second policeman was not a hell of a lot better than the fat wanker one. He too was holding his pistol aimed at the lieutenant and he too was yelling instructions, rather than talking to him calmly the way the lieutenant was.

[notfatcat]

So you're saying he was correct in ignoring the police instructions to pull over while driving for a mile. We'll have to just disagree then. I think that would be stupid advice to give someone and therefore stupid to do. I think it's really obvious that ignoring police instructions will almost without question make the situation worse. Oh well, at least we can agree that the police were bad.

[Kiwias]

So you're saying he was correct in ignoring the police instructions to pull over while driving for a mile. We'll have to just disagree then. I think that would be stupid advice to give someone and therefore stupid to do. I think it's really obvious that ignoring police instructions will almost without question make the situation worse. Oh well, at least we can agree that the police were bad.

I said I think he had a tough choice to make and I believe he chose the better of two bad options. I do not disagree that ignoring instructions will make the situation worse but I would argue that he assumed that his being a serving lieutenant should have helped improve the situation. Clearly that is going too much credit to the policemen.

[notfatcat]

Just so I'm clear - are you saying the better of two bad options was driving for a mile before pulling over and the worse of the two was to pull over immediately?

[Sandstorm]

Pull over now or drive on for another mile? Jeez, I think we need to look at the Army to find out who hired the bigger idiot!

Who disobeys police instructions? Felons, drunks or terrorists. No wonder the cops were in a state of hightened anxiety.

Good idea to test their poor training standards, Lieutenant.

[Tichtheid]

Pull over now or drive on for another mile? Jeez, I think we need to look at the Army to find out who hired the bigger idiot!

Who disobeys police instructions? Felons, drunks or terrorists. No wonder the cops were in a state of hightened anxiety.

Good idea to test their poor training standards, Lieutenant.

I saw the video when it went viral, but the only other information I've read about it has been on these pages.

From what I gather he was told to pull over by the side of the road in the dark, is that correct?

He put his hazard lights on and drove very slowly to a brightly lit public area, about a mile from where he was initially told to pull over, yes?

If he was going, say, 15mph, it would have taken him around four minutes, driving very slowly with his hazard lights on.

Why did this black Latino army officer choose to not stop at the side of a darkened road and choose instead to stop at a brightly lit public area, whilst giving the police every indication that he could that he had seen and understood their instructions?

His state of fear was confirmed as being justified by the officer who has now been sacked for his aggressive and unprofessional behaviour.

I think he acted wisely, he is still alive.

[Slick]

Whilst I definitely understand his motives, I can understand why police don't want a precedent of people driving a mile after being told to stop.

Of course the main point here is that someone feels the need to do it to feel safe from the police, fucked up.

[Sandstorm]

The cops “understood the intentions of a driver”who was doing something completely weird???

Usually a drunk idiot with a gun on the seat does something crazy on a darkened road. Cops have 4 minutes to start thinking about how weird/crazy/dangerous this driver is.

[notfatcat]

You could just as easily argue the officer went all high-octane Dirty Harry because of the lieutenant's stupidity. It's frickin obvious that disobeying the police will wind them the hell up. Also, it's interesting how this dimly lit road scenario has now become some sort of accepted norm in the space of 2 weeks - hey police, don't pull people over on dimly lit roads. Hey people, ignore the police if they try to pull you over on a dimly lit road.

[Tichtheid]

Walk a mile in his shoes, high profile police killings of black men are all over the news.

The cop has been sacked for his actions, I don't know how it's possible to argue that his behaviour was legitimate if even his police force say otherwise.

[Tichtheid]

Apologies if this has already been posted.

A South African's thoughts;

[notfatcat]

Walk a mile in his shoes, high profile police killings of black men are all over the news.

The cop has been sacked for his actions, I don't know how it's possible to argue that his behaviour was legitimate if even his police force say otherwise.

The police killing black men is all over the news because the media doesn't care about any other race when it comes to police killings, and with the pace at which BLM has grown police killing a black man is big, big big news, and profitable too. There are still 'only' around 10 to 20 killings of unarmed black men per year, and most of those are resisting arrest - something that doesn't really get mentioned in a truthful context in the news.

Also, I don't think anyone on here has argued that the police behaviour was legitimate, although I think their reason for being wound up was legitimate.

[Calculon]

Yes, he initially refused. Your point?

Since you are making the claim, why don't you provide a link showing how long he waited between hearing the police asking him, and him putting his hands out of the window.

Find it yourself. It's on the guy's own livestream video. I can't remember which site I saw it on a fortnight ago so do your own Googling.

So you can't find a link, what a surprise

[Calculon]

The cops “understood the intentions of a driver”who was doing something completely weird???

Usually a drunk idiot with a gun on the seat does something crazy on a darkened road. Cops have 4 minutes to start thinking about how weird/crazy/dangerous this driver is.

Even the sacked cop indicated afterwards that he didn't have a problem with the guy driving for less than a mile to a safe place to pull over. This is a really silly justification for the way the cops behaved

[Calculon]

The police killing black men is all over the news because the media doesn't care about any other race when it comes to police killings,

"other race" is of course code for white men. The poor oppressed white men in America

[notfatcat]

Since you are making the claim, why don't you provide a link showing how long he waited between hearing the police asking him, and him putting his hands out of the window.

Find it yourself. It's on the guy's own livestream video. I can't remember which site I saw it on a fortnight ago so do your own Googling.

So you can't find a link, what a surprise

Mate, if you want to believe that the army guy complied perfectly with police instructions that's fine by me. It is also no surprise whatsoever that you have no intention of looking for the video yourself.

[notfatcat]

The police killing black men is all over the news because the media doesn't care about any other race when it comes to police killings,

"other race" is of course code for white men. The poor oppressed white men in America

Can you name one of the 500+ white men killed in the last 16 months by police? I can't.

[Calculon]

You made a claim, not backed up by anyone else and unwilling to provide a link. I'm calling bullshit for now. The fact that you think I didn't look for is also not a surprise

[robmatic]

There are still 'only' around 10 to 20 killings of unarmed black men per year, and most of those are resisting arrest - something that doesn't really get mentioned in a truthful context in the news.

It's still somewhat problematic if unarmed men are getting killed for 'resisting arrest'.

[notfatcat]

You made a claim, not backed up by anyone else and unwilling to provide a link. I'm calling bullshit for now. The fact that you think I didn't look for is also not a surprise

That's fine.

[Calculon]

The police killing black men is all over the news because the media doesn't care about any other race when it comes to police killings,

"other race" is of course code for white men. The poor oppressed white men in America

Can you name one of the 500+ white men killed in the last 16 months by police? I can't.

Not everyone is as obsessed with the "culture wars", I don't even remember the name of the fat black guy that was recently killed

[notfatcat]

There are still 'only' around 10 to 20 killings of unarmed black men per year, and most of those are resisting arrest - something that doesn't really get mentioned in a truthful context in the news.

It's still somewhat problematic if unarmed men are getting killed for 'resisting arrest'.

Ideally police would kill no one.

[notfatcat]

"other race" is of course code for white men. The poor oppressed white men in America

Can you name one of the 500+ white men killed in the last 16 months by police? I can't.

Not everyone is as obsessed with the "culture wars", I don't even remember the name of the fat black guy that was recently killed

Good for you!

[Tichtheid]

As per a graph I posted the other day, the number of black Americans shot to death by police officers is for the last four years is 223, 209, 235 and 241

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

It is a little over half as many as whites, but given that the African American population amounts to 13-14% of the whole and whites account for around 75%, it works out that black people are roughly three times more likely to die at the hands of a police officer than whites.

Latinos are one and a half times more likely to be killed by police officers than whites, and blacks are roughly twice as likely to be killed by police officers as Latinos.

[Calculon]

You made a claim, not backed up by anyone else and unwilling to provide a link. I'm calling bullshit for now. The fact that you think I didn't look for is also not a surprise

That's fine.

Just as I thought, and of course he didn't comply perfectly with police instructions, they were contradictory for a start

[notfatcat]

As per a graph I posted the other day, the number of black Americans shot to death by police officers is for the last four years is 223, 209, 235 and 241

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

It is a little over half as many as whites, but given that the African American population amounts to 13-14% of the whole and whites account for around 75%, it works out that black people are roughly three times more likely to die at the hands of a police officer than whites.

Latinos are one and a half times more likely to be killed by police officers than whites, and blacks are roughly twice as likely to be killed by police officers as Latinos.

Yes they accord proportionately with involvement in violent crime. It's pretty pointless comparing the numbers to the population figures when talking about police brutality/behaviour, otherwise you could claim the police are egregiously sexist because the vast majority of the people killed are men, or that they are ageist because half the number of people killed are aged between 20 and 40.

[Tichtheid]

Well then, taking population proportions out of it, of all violent crime, nearly 60% is committed by whites, while around 37% is committed by blacks.

https://open.lib.umn.edu/socialproblems ... 03_s05_f01

(the above is based on arrests)

[Kiwias]

Just so I'm clear - are you saying the better of two bad options was driving for a mile before pulling over and the worse of the two was to pull over immediately?

It took you a while but you have finally got there. He had his hazard lamps on and was driving slowly, not what a hardened criminal would do, and when he stopped in a well-lit place, the police would have a good chance to check with him, once they had seen he was in the military and was calm and courteous.

His worst mistake was in overestimating the policemen's ability to act with reason and courtesy.

[Enzedder]

Remind me again why he was pulled over in the first place?

I have no idea. However everyone knows a driver (black, white, brown or purple) who gets pulled over needs to be more compliant when dealing with cops. Because cops are basically badly trained idiots.

Didn't pull over in a quiet, poorly lit location when first flagged. Pulled over at busy, well lit location and based on what ensued, you'd have to say that was a good call.

Cop has been fired and I would say a substantial settlement is being arranged

[Fangle]

Police unions are a curse, protecting the lousy cops. Chauvin should have been fired a long time ago.

[Calculon]

I read somewhere that even if a cop is fired, he can usually join another police department easily enough.

[Calculon]

US police mock dementia sufferer during arrest

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56897186

Tbf she was resisting arrest so she had it coming to her.

[Rinkals]

I have no idea. However everyone knows a driver (black, white, brown or purple) who gets pulled over needs to be more compliant when dealing with cops. Because cops are basically badly trained idiots.

Didn't pull over in a quiet, poorly lit location when first flagged. Pulled over at busy, well lit location and based on what ensued, you'd have to say that was a good call.

Cop has been fired and I would say a substantial settlement is being arranged

I'm really not keen to watch that, but it seems to me that the cop isn't really to blame.

Yes, he was a bit of an arsehole, but it seems to me that he got carried away with the moment and the fact that both of the cops were shouting and yelling and escalating the confrontational dynamic.

It's quite clear that, with better training the situation needn't have got to the point where the aggression spilled over and the anger took over.

Had the instructions to the victim been better conveyed in a calmer manner, I think the whole situation might have been routine, but that would need the officers to be better trained.

I'm also not convinced that a white driver would have faced the same level of aggro.