The Met: the force that keeps on giving

[Guy Smiley]

So is the problem society as much as the police then? Are they just a reflection of us?

Or is something rotten to the core throughout the UK police force system that needs attention from the top and bottom.. and everything inbetween?

I don't know if that's the case.. just pondering aloud...

That’s a good point actually. I grew up terrified of getting in trouble with the police and as I got older had a healthy respect for them. Kids, in all parts of society now seem to have lost that, not all of course, but right through from the ones that don’t give a shit to the smart arses filming on their phones. Policing seems to be seen by that generation as something you do if you can’t do anything else rather than a vocation, and that leads to that disrespect.

Yes... I think it's 'society'.

Gleefully taking a plunge here into the risk of fulfilling some stereotype of 60 yr old man yells at clouds for being worse clouds than back in his day, but...


you could relabel this thread, change a few specifics and address it to any large organisation of your choosing.

The Labour Party, perhaps. Or the Tories. Shell, BP... Tesla and Amazon for their labour policies.

Get my drift? There's historical corruption on a smallish scale like the local police chief taking backhanders or turning a blind eye. That's been around forever. What I think we see now is ...

and this has become my handy label to affix to all problems of late


the natural progression of neoliberalism where financial constraints over rule quality, be it in product or training. In a parallel to the idea that most decent conspiracy theories can be discounted on the basis of human error or ineptitude, the dumbfuckery described here on the part of the Met and the wider cultural issues being alluded to can be countered through education and awareness. Same with corporate malpractise. Educate your participants to aim for best possible outcomes as opposed to some sort of quota.

The bigger success stories involving large organisations nearly always involve some sort of grass roots human values component being supported through all levels of the organisation.

Our collective political and economic mindset refuses to actively incorporate that principle.

We are ruled by donkeys... and we allow it.

[I like neeps]

I think the met are a result of the punitive political culture we have mixed in with the huge underfunding of civil society. So they make increasingly bizarre decisions because they lack the budget to tackle the meatier stuff. And like most public life have corruption baked in.

Their armed response in Kensington yesterday was completely bizarre on the face of it. However, squatters in London's prime real estate is something the police absolutely cannot allow so they had a whole dog and pony show.

[Happyhooker]

I think the met are a result of the punitive political culture we have mixed in with the huge underfunding of civil society. So they make increasingly bizarre decisions because they lack the budget to tackle the meatier stuff. And like most public life have corruption baked in.

Their armed response in Kensington yesterday was completely bizarre on the face of it. However, squatters in London's prime real estate is something the police absolutely cannot allow so they had a whole dog and pony show.

Why can't they allow it?

How does it differ from my friend's place that got squatted during lockdown as he went to live with his parents. The police did fuck all about that.

This kind of obedience thinking is a large part of our current problems

[Crash669]

So is the problem society as much as the police then? Are they just a reflection of us?

Or is something rotten to the core throughout the UK police force system that needs attention from the top and bottom.. and everything inbetween?

I don't know if that's the case.. just pondering aloud...

That’s a good point actually. I grew up terrified of getting in trouble with the police and as I got older had a healthy respect for them. Kids, in all parts of society now seem to have lost that, not all of course, but right through from the ones that don’t give a shit to the smart arses filming on their phones. Policing seems to be seen by that generation as something you do if you can’t do anything else rather than a vocation, and that leads to that disrespect.

I think that's a "back in my day" false narrative. There's never been a time where young people generally had respect for the police or we wouldn't have had the Teddy Boys, hippies, punk or rave culture. I'm sure you, being brought up in a decent middle class family, were instilled with a solid respect for the police but all the coppers offer to a lot of society is fear, and that only gets you so far.

And why would you respect the police right now? Obviously stories like this with regards to the met make them look like their primary interest is the protection of their own power rather than any sense of serving the public, the increased presence of armed officers in public makes them seem less approachable, and on a personal level the coppers I know are so fucking thick you aren't left with a lot of hope for the force. But then this is nothing new either, as terrible as the met are now, are they really more corrupt than the 1970's?

[I like neeps]

I think the met are a result of the punitive political culture we have mixed in with the huge underfunding of civil society. So they make increasingly bizarre decisions because they lack the budget to tackle the meatier stuff. And like most public life have corruption baked in.

Their armed response in Kensington yesterday was completely bizarre on the face of it. However, squatters in London's prime real estate is something the police absolutely cannot allow so they had a whole dog and pony show.

Why can't they allow it?

How does it differ from my friend's place that got squatted during lockdown as he went to live with his parents. The police did fuck all about that.

This kind of obedience thinking is a large part of our current problems

Oh because this country is run by people who care more about Kensington and monied interests than your friend.

It's not obedience, it's a disgrace. But it's just the country we live in.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think the met are a result of the punitive political culture we have mixed in with the huge underfunding of civil society. So they make increasingly bizarre decisions because they lack the budget to tackle the meatier stuff. And like most public life have corruption baked in.

Their armed response in Kensington yesterday was completely bizarre on the face of it. However, squatters in London's prime real estate is something the police absolutely cannot allow so they had a whole dog and pony show.

Why can't they allow it?

How does it differ from my friend's place that got squatted during lockdown as he went to live with his parents. The police did fuck all about that.

This kind of obedience thinking is a large part of our current problems

I've said this n times which makes me a broken record but the Law in the UK long since changed from caring about crimes against the person to crimes against property: specifically property of the wealthy/elite. Rob a bank and you'll get less than for murder of a Joe Bloggs (obviously killing a "celeb" is different).

{EDIT} As per neeps.

[ASMO]

Issue for me is that they take the "force" part of their title literally now, they act like the paramilitary arm of the government, they even dress like it. All semblance of them being there to uphold the law has gone, they are their to do the bidding of their masters and the rich and famous. There is a complete lack of transparency and accountability from the top down, they hate the fact the public are legally allowed to film their activities becuase they can't get away with shit they used to, and that is why they illegally challenge people doing it all the time.

[Crash669]

I think the met are a result of the punitive political culture we have mixed in with the huge underfunding of civil society. So they make increasingly bizarre decisions because they lack the budget to tackle the meatier stuff. And like most public life have corruption baked in.

Their armed response in Kensington yesterday was completely bizarre on the face of it. However, squatters in London's prime real estate is something the police absolutely cannot allow so they had a whole dog and pony show.

Why can't they allow it?

How does it differ from my friend's place that got squatted during lockdown as he went to live with his parents. The police did fuck all about that.

This kind of obedience thinking is a large part of our current problems

I've said this n times which makes me a broken record but the Law in the UK long since changed from caring about crimes against the person to crimes against property: specifically property of the wealthy/elite. Rob a bank and you'll get less than for murder of a Joe Bloggs (obviously killing a "celeb" is different).

{EDIT} As per neeps.

While you're right that's what the law does I think you're wrong to suggest that it's changed to become that. The protection of property rights is the foundation of our entire legal and political system, it's what parliament and Magna Carta were created to do, and the requirement to own property to have to vote only went a century ago.

Really this is our political and legal structures acting exactly as they're meant to.

[petej]

So is the problem society as much as the police then? Are they just a reflection of us?

Or is something rotten to the core throughout the UK police force system that needs attention from the top and bottom.. and everything inbetween?

I don't know if that's the case.. just pondering aloud...

That’s a good point actually. I grew up terrified of getting in trouble with the police and as I got older had a healthy respect for them. Kids, in all parts of society now seem to have lost that, not all of course, but right through from the ones that don’t give a shit to the smart arses filming on their phones. Policing seems to be seen by that generation as something you do if you can’t do anything else rather than a vocation, and that leads to that disrespect.

Yes... I think it's 'society'.

Gleefully taking a plunge here into the risk of fulfilling some stereotype of 60 yr old man yells at clouds for being worse clouds than back in his day, but...


you could relabel this thread, change a few specifics and address it to any large organisation of your choosing.

The Labour Party, perhaps. Or the Tories. Shell, BP... Tesla and Amazon for their labour policies.

Get my drift? There's historical corruption on a smallish scale like the local police chief taking backhanders or turning a blind eye. That's been around forever. What I think we see now is ...

and this has become my handy label to affix to all problems of late


the natural progression of neoliberalism where financial constraints over rule quality, be it in product or training. In a parallel to the idea that most decent conspiracy theories can be discounted on the basis of human error or ineptitude, the dumbfuckery described here on the part of the Met and the wider cultural issues being alluded to can be countered through education and awareness. Same with corporate malpractise. Educate your participants to aim for best possible outcomes as opposed to some sort of quota.

The bigger success stories involving large organisations nearly always involve some sort of grass roots human values component being supported through all levels of the organisation.

Our collective political and economic mindset refuses to actively incorporate that principle.

We are ruled by donkeys... and we allow it.

I think the media narrative is nearly always negative and we are more constantly reported on than ever before so you easily get the situation where you have less shitness but more of the shitness reported. The tolerance of said shitness I suspect is also lower these days. For example, the younger generations are less tolerant of Johnson's shit than the older ones who voted for him.

I do think that people massively underestimate incompetence, laziness and dull practicalities.

[Torquemada 1420]

Why can't they allow it?

How does it differ from my friend's place that got squatted during lockdown as he went to live with his parents. The police did fuck all about that.

This kind of obedience thinking is a large part of our current problems

I've said this n times which makes me a broken record but the Law in the UK long since changed from caring about crimes against the person to crimes against property: specifically property of the wealthy/elite. Rob a bank and you'll get less than for murder of a Joe Bloggs (obviously killing a "celeb" is different).

{EDIT} As per neeps.

While you're right that's what the law does I think you're wrong to suggest that it's changed to become that. The protection of property rights is the foundation of our entire legal and political system, it's what parliament and Magna Carta were created to do, and the requirement to own property to have to vote only went a century ago.

Really this is our political and legal structures acting exactly as they're meant to.

Maybe I should have been clearer on "long since". You are right that from MC up until the formation of the police, it was entirely that way. The unusual evolution of the police in Britain (formed from the public [hence "citizen's arrest" and I know you know all this but some might not!] rather than as an arm of the state to control the populace) meant that policing evolved far more towards protecting the general public. The notion of the village bobby on the beat was a real thing. Centralisation, Z Cars and Thatcherism have turned the thing entirely back towards what existed for the preceding 800 years. The police now are pretty much an arm of the state as anywhere else.

"The police used to watch over the people. Now they are watching the people".

[Happyhooker]

Fairly sizeable protest going on atmo outside stoke newington police station, completely blocking the A10.

Another one planned for tomorrow

[Crash669]

Maybe I should have been clearer on "long since". You are right that from MC up until the formation of the police, it was entirely that way. The unusual evolution of the police in Britain (formed from the public [hence "citizen's arrest" and I know you know all this but some might not!] rather than as an arm of the state to control the populace) meant that policing evolved far more towards protecting the general public. The notion of the village bobby on the beat was a real thing. Centralisation, Z Cars and Thatcherism have turned the thing entirely back towards what existed for the preceding 800 years. The police now are pretty much an arm of the state as anywhere else.

"The police used to watch over the people. Now they are watching the people".

I think we're going to be in general agreement - like saying Finn Russell is shit, just a question of how shit.

I think the police were always predominantly there to protect property and enforce a political position over protecting the general public. The idea that they're there to be a monopoly on organised violence first and foremost has been the experience I've had of them most over the last 30 years and I really think their purpose as an arm of the state isn't to protect the general public but to police the general public.

That might sound like a wanky leftist student talk, but the only "effective policing" I've seen has been in the aftermath of riots where property has been damaged and the state wants a show of force. Somebody glasses you, burgles your house, snatches a purse and they're grossly ineffective and I don't think that's accidental.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think we're going to be in general agreement - like saying Finn Russell is shit, just a question of how shit.

I think the police were always predominantly there to protect property and enforce a political position over protecting the general public. The idea that they're there to be a monopoly on organised violence first and foremost has been the experience I've had of them most over the last 30 years and I really think their purpose as an arm of the state isn't to protect the general public but to police the general public.

That might sound like a wanky leftist student talk, but the only "effective policing" I've seen has been in the aftermath of riots where property has been damaged and the state wants a show of force. Somebody glasses you, burgles your house, snatches a purse and they're grossly ineffective and I don't think that's accidental.

Yes. Although I would try and make a distinction between the village/town bobby on the beat of the late 60s/early 70s (after which point they all wanted to play at being The Sweeney and/or were centralised) and city policing. The beat bobby actually provided some deterrent and hence prevention (mostly because he had the ear of the locals) and sure, someone will point out that those sorts of crimes were hardly the Great Train Robbery or Brinks-Mat (Wait. Forget that. That was the police.) but that is exactly the point you and I are making. The sort of crime that blights our lives as plebs is mainly anti-social behaviour** and that absolutely is not policed except outside Westminster. Regardless, prevention versus solving + conviction is massively one sided. Despite what the hundreds of super sleuth shows that jam our TV schedules and titillate the masses suggest, the police and the courts are utterly sh*t at detection and conviction. We'd be better selling all their cars and vans and buying them DMs.

** And not the Hatton Gardens job.

[Hugo]

Great posts crash & Torq. There is a lot of food for thought to digest there.

[Grandpa]

The Metropolitan Police's approach to tackling corruption within its ranks is "fundamentally flawed", an inspection by the police watchdog has concluded.

The watchdog found the force had recruited people with criminal connections in the last two years, and more than 100 staff had broken the law.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60832186

[Torquemada 1420]

The Metropolitan Police's approach to tackling corruption within its ranks is "fundamentally flawed", an inspection by the police watchdog has concluded.

The watchdog found the force had recruited people with criminal connections in the last two years, and more than 100 staff had broken the law.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60832186

The Met welcomed the report and said it was committed to tackling corruption.

Sure it does.

[rockfield]

I think we're going to be in general agreement - like saying Finn Russell is shit, just a question of how shit.

I think the police were always predominantly there to protect property and enforce a political position over protecting the general public. The idea that they're there to be a monopoly on organised violence first and foremost has been the experience I've had of them most over the last 30 years and I really think their purpose as an arm of the state isn't to protect the general public but to police the general public.

That might sound like a wanky leftist student talk, but the only "effective policing" I've seen has been in the aftermath of riots where property has been damaged and the state wants a show of force. Somebody glasses you, burgles your house, snatches a purse and they're grossly ineffective and I don't think that's accidental.

Yes. Although I would try and make a distinction between the village/town bobby on the beat of the late 60s/early 70s (after which point they all wanted to play at being The Sweeney and/or were centralised) and city policing. The beat bobby actually provided some deterrent and hence prevention (mostly because he had the ear of the locals) and sure, someone will point out that those sorts of crimes were hardly the Great Train Robbery or Brinks-Mat (Wait. Forget that. That was the police.) but that is exactly the point you and I are making. The sort of crime that blights our lives as plebs is mainly anti-social behaviour** and that absolutely is not policed except outside Westminster. Regardless, prevention versus solving + conviction is massively one sided. Despite what the hundreds of super sleuth shows that jam our TV schedules and titillate the masses suggest, the police and the courts are utterly sh*t at detection and conviction. We'd be better selling all their cars and vans and buying them DMs.

** And not the Hatton Gardens job.

Very good post - hits the nail on the head, to gain the respect of the general public focus on the crimes that matter to them

[Enzedder]

So sad to see that they haven't changed since they murdered Blair Peach in the 1970s