B&I Lions 2025 Official Thread

[sockwithaticket]

JVP called up to provide cover at SH! A bit of a surprise given his shitshow of a performance on Saturday when he looked the 3rd best SH on show. However it may be that he was the one available and willing to go?

Availability will be one factor, but 9 simply doesn't have much depth across any of the Home Nations at the moment.

[Tichtheid]

The British & Irish Lions v Argentina

15. Marcus Smith (Harlequins/ England) #855
14. Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints/England)
13. Sione Tuipulotu (Glasgow Warriors/Scotland)
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht Rugby/Ireland) #837
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh Rugby/Scotland) #841
10. Fin Smith (Northampton Saints/England)
9. Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints/England)

1. Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears/England)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale Sharks/England) #851
3. Finlay Bealham (Connacht Rugby/Ireland)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens/England) #825 (c)
5. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby/Ireland) #838
6. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks/England) #853
7. Jac Morgan (Ospreys/Wales)
8. Ben Earl (Saracens/England)

Replacements:
16. Ronan Kelleher (Leinster Rugby/Ireland)
17. Pierre Schoeman (Edinburgh Rugby/Scotland)
18. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby/Ireland) #818
19. Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors/ Scotland)
20. Henry Pollock (Northampton Saints/England)
21. Tomos Williams (Gloucester Rugby/Wales)
22. Elliot Daly (Saracens/England) #822
23. Mack Hansen (Connacht Rugby/Ireland)

[Tichtheid]

A hefty 3/4 line and a pack that should dominate the breakdown

[SaintK]

A hefty 3/4 line and a pack that should dominate the breakdown

A hefty 3/4 line that includes a midget playing out of position at full back!!!
I do wish Farrell had picked at least a couple of proper No8's rather than have part timers playing there, mind you the back three in the pack selected have got some gas

[Tichtheid]

A hefty 3/4 line and a pack that should dominate the breakdown

A hefty 3/4 line that includes a midget playing out of position at full back!!!
I do wish Farrell had picked at least a couple of proper No8's rather than have part timers playing there, mind you the back three in the pack selected have got some gas

Point of order for us oldies, or us UK oldies at least - half backs, scrum half and fly half (9&10) centre 3/4 and wing 3/4 (12, 13, 11, 14), fullback (15)

[SaintK]

A hefty 3/4 line and a pack that should dominate the breakdown

A hefty 3/4 line that includes a midget playing out of position at full back!!!
I do wish Farrell had picked at least a couple of proper No8's rather than have part timers playing there, mind you the back three in the pack selected have got some gas

Point of order for us oldies, or us UK oldies at least - half backs, scrum half and fly half (9&10) centre 3/4 and wing 3/4 (12, 13, 11, 14), fullback (15)

Fair enough We have a midget playing out of position at fullback!

[Tichtheid]

A hefty 3/4 line that includes a midget playing out of position at full back!!!
I do wish Farrell had picked at least a couple of proper No8's rather than have part timers playing there, mind you the back three in the pack selected have got some gas

Point of order for us oldies, or us UK oldies at least - half backs, scrum half and fly half (9&10) centre 3/4 and wing 3/4 (12, 13, 11, 14), fullback (15)

Fair enough We have a midget playing out of position at fullback!

That’s more like it

[Slick]

A hefty 3/4 line and a pack that should dominate the breakdown

A hefty 3/4 line that includes a midget playing out of position at full back!!!
I do wish Farrell had picked at least a couple of proper No8's rather than have part timers playing there, mind you the back three in the pack selected have got some gas

Point of order for us oldies, or us UK oldies at least - half backs, scrum half and fly half (9&10) centre 3/4 and wing 3/4 (12, 13, 11, 14), fullback (15)

I don’t get it…

[Tichtheid]

A hefty 3/4 line that includes a midget playing out of position at full back!!!
I do wish Farrell had picked at least a couple of proper No8's rather than have part timers playing there, mind you the back three in the pack selected have got some gas

Point of order for us oldies, or us UK oldies at least - half backs, scrum half and fly half (9&10) centre 3/4 and wing 3/4 (12, 13, 11, 14), fullback (15)

I don’t get it…

It’s just the old fashioned fractions terminology- half backs, three quarter backs, full back. It was the same or similar in French.
New Zealand split the backs slightly differently with a first and second five eighths at 10 and 12.

[sockwithaticket]

I really wish we would stop dicking M. Smith's international career around by picking him at 15.

If you don't think he's the best fly half, then stick him on the bench. An actual fullback will be better in the role.

[laurent]

Point of order for us oldies, or us UK oldies at least - half backs, scrum half and fly half (9&10) centre 3/4 and wing 3/4 (12, 13, 11, 14), fullback (15)

I don’t get it…

It’s just the old fashioned fractions terminology- half backs, three quarter backs, full back. It was the same or similar in French.
New Zealand split the backs slightly differently with a first and second five eighths at 10 and 12.

Demi de mêlée, demi d'ouverture, trois quarts centres, trois quarts ailes, arrière...

[Uncle fester]

Thought Tuipulotu was more of a 12?

[Paddington Bear]

Point of order for us oldies, or us UK oldies at least - half backs, scrum half and fly half (9&10) centre 3/4 and wing 3/4 (12, 13, 11, 14), fullback (15)

I don’t get it…

It’s just the old fashioned fractions terminology- half backs, three quarter backs, full back. It was the same or similar in French.
New Zealand split the backs slightly differently with a first and second five eighths at 10 and 12.

My grandad always insisted that he played wing forward not flanker

[Slick]

Point of order for us oldies, or us UK oldies at least - half backs, scrum half and fly half (9&10) centre 3/4 and wing 3/4 (12, 13, 11, 14), fullback (15)

I don’t get it…

It’s just the old fashioned fractions terminology- half backs, three quarter backs, full back. It was the same or similar in French.
New Zealand split the backs slightly differently with a first and second five eighths at 10 and 12.

I’ve never heard three quarter backs before, all the backs were three quarters

[Simian]

Thought Tuipulotu was more of a 12?

Plays both for Glasgow, but’s generally more effective at 12.

[Slick]

Really not sure what Farrell is thinking about picking M Smith at 15. The evidence strongly points to him being fucking useless in that position, does Farrell think he can coach it into him over the next 6 weeks?

[Biffer]

Really not sure what Farrell is thinking about picking M Smith at 15. The evidence strongly points to him being fucking useless in that position, does Farrell think he can coach it into him over the next 6 weeks?

No genuine fullbacks available. Kinghorn with Toulouse, Keenan took a knock last week.

[sockwithaticket]

Really not sure what Farrell is thinking about picking M Smith at 15. The evidence strongly points to him being fucking useless in that position, does Farrell think he can coach it into him over the next 6 weeks?

No genuine fullbacks available. Kinghorn with Toulouse, Keenan took a knock last week.

Daly.

[Oxbow]

Tommy Freeman played there enough early in his career to still be a better choice than Smith.

[Gumboot]

Can't find an official Wobblies fred, so here will do.

Joe Schmidt has named his first squad of the year...

Forwards (20):
Allan Alaalatoa, Angus Bell, Nick Champion De Crespigny, Matt Faessler, Nick Frost, Langi Gleeson, Tom Hooper, Fraser McReight, Zane Nonggorr, Billy Pollard, David Porecki, Tom Robertson, Will Skelton, James Slipper, Darcy Swain, Carlo Tizzano, Taniela Tupou, Rob Valetini, Jeremy Williams, Harry Wilson

Backs (16):
Filipo Daugunu, Ben Donaldson, Jake Gordon, Len Ikitau, Max Jorgensen, Andrew Kellaway, Noah Lolesio, Tom Lynagh, Tate McDermott, Hunter Paisami, Dylan Pietsch, Harry Potter, Joseph-Aukuso Suaalii, Corey Toole, Nic White, Tom Wright

[Hal Jordan]

Really not sure what Farrell is thinking about picking M Smith at 15. The evidence strongly points to him being fucking useless in that position, does Farrell think he can coach it into him over the next 6 weeks?

No genuine fullbacks available. Kinghorn with Toulouse, Keenan took a knock last week.

Daly.

Like he said, no genuine fullbacks available.

[clydecloggie]

I don’t get it…

It’s just the old fashioned fractions terminology- half backs, three quarter backs, full back. It was the same or similar in French.
New Zealand split the backs slightly differently with a first and second five eighths at 10 and 12.

My grandad always insisted that he played wing forward not flanker

in modern parlance the wing forward is the odd one out in a pod system (i.e., the one forward who is not in a pod but out on the wing linking the play on a break) - and it's quite often the hooker.

It's why it's impossible to talk to old people.

[sockwithaticket]

No genuine fullbacks available. Kinghorn with Toulouse, Keenan took a knock last week.

Daly.

Like he said, no genuine fullbacks available.

I've been a very vocal critic of Daly at fullback in the past, but England stopped picking him there as he was finally getting to grips with the position and starting there regularly for his club. He's better than he was and a better bet than M. Smith.

[Hal Jordan]

Daly.

Like he said, no genuine fullbacks available.

I've been a very vocal critic of Daly at fullback in the past, but England stopped picking him there as he was finally getting to grips with the position and starting there regularly for his club. He's better than he was and a better bet than M. Smith.

No argument from me.

[Tichtheid]

I don’t get it…

It’s just the old fashioned fractions terminology- half backs, three quarter backs, full back. It was the same or similar in French.
New Zealand split the backs slightly differently with a first and second five eighths at 10 and 12.

My grandad always insisted that he played wing forward not flanker

I'm going to take a punt and say that the terminology around wing forward/flanker changed when Adidas brought out the Flanker forwards boot. It was certainly common parlance when I was at school and most people even now, I think, would know what you are talking about if you mentioned wing forward.

South Africa talk about Eighth Man, rather than Number 8, I think.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Daly.

Like he said, no genuine fullbacks available.

I've been a very vocal critic of Daly at fullback in the past, but England stopped picking him there as he was finally getting to grips with the position and starting there regularly for his club. He's better than he was and a better bet than M. Smith.

England stopped picking him there after he turned his back on a Wales attack (from a penalty) and allowed a try to be scored without any due attention from our last line of defence, and you can't really ever complain about being dropped for such incompetence, not reasonably

[dpedin]

Like he said, no genuine fullbacks available.

I've been a very vocal critic of Daly at fullback in the past, but England stopped picking him there as he was finally getting to grips with the position and starting there regularly for his club. He's better than he was and a better bet than M. Smith.

England stopped picking him there after he turned his back on a Wales attack (from a penalty) and allowed a try to be scored without any due attention from our last line of defence, and you can't really ever complain about being dropped for such incompetence, not reasonably

Kinghorn will be 15 for the full Lions team with Keenan as back up. M Smith is pretty useless at 15, his positional play, tackling and decision making are all poor in that position. M Smith is a decent 10 but not as good as Russel or F Smith so will float around the squad and play to fill gaps when required. Daly is a safer bet for 15 but still bit flakey, he at least has a big boot on him.

[Paddington Bear]

It’s just the old fashioned fractions terminology- half backs, three quarter backs, full back. It was the same or similar in French.
New Zealand split the backs slightly differently with a first and second five eighths at 10 and 12.

My grandad always insisted that he played wing forward not flanker

I'm going to take a punt and say that the terminology around wing forward/flanker changed when Adidas brought out the Flanker forwards boot. It was certainly common parlance when I was at school and most people even now, I think, would know what you are talking about if you mentioned wing forward.

South Africa talk about Eighth Man, rather than Number 8, I think.

In the US they say 8-man as well.

Also, am I imagining this or did it used to be common to call full time no-side?

[SaintK]

I've been a very vocal critic of Daly at fullback in the past, but England stopped picking him there as he was finally getting to grips with the position and starting there regularly for his club. He's better than he was and a better bet than M. Smith.

England stopped picking him there after he turned his back on a Wales attack (from a penalty) and allowed a try to be scored without any due attention from our last line of defence, and you can't really ever complain about being dropped for such incompetence, not reasonably

Kinghorn will be 15 for the full Lions team with Keenan as back up. M Smith is pretty useless at 15, his positional play, tackling and decision making are all poor in that position. M Smith is a decent 10 but not as good as Russel or F Smith so will float around the squad and play to fill gaps when required. Daly is a safer bet for 15 but still bit flakey, he at least has a big boot on him.

Providing he survives the two matches that Toulouse potentially still have to play!
I think it's a lot closer between Keenan and Kinghorn than you seem to think.
Daly would be a good bench option for the test team covering 3 positions and was outstanding at 15 ffor Saracens when selected there for the season just gone.

[Big D]

England stopped picking him there after he turned his back on a Wales attack (from a penalty) and allowed a try to be scored without any due attention from our last line of defence, and you can't really ever complain about being dropped for such incompetence, not reasonably

Kinghorn will be 15 for the full Lions team with Keenan as back up. M Smith is pretty useless at 15, his positional play, tackling and decision making are all poor in that position. M Smith is a decent 10 but not as good as Russel or F Smith so will float around the squad and play to fill gaps when required. Daly is a safer bet for 15 but still bit flakey, he at least has a big boot on him.

Providing he survives the two matches that Toulouse potentially still have to play!
I think it's a lot closer between Keenan and Kinghorn than you seem to think.
Daly would be a good bench option for the test team covering 3 positions and was outstanding at 15 ffor Saracens when selected there for the season just gone.

Yeah 15 will be won or lost based on tour form (and fitness).

[Torquemada 1420]

Really not sure what Farrell is thinking about picking M Smith at 15. The evidence strongly points to him being fucking useless in that position, does Farrell think he can coach it into him over the next 6 weeks?

No genuine fullbacks available. Kinghorn with Toulouse, Keenan took a knock last week.

Daly.

[Paddington Bear]

No genuine fullbacks available. Kinghorn with Toulouse, Keenan took a knock last week.

Daly.

Daly is obviously a better fullback than Smith and has been superb at club level there all year.

[Yr Alban]

Point of order for us oldies, or us UK oldies at least - half backs, scrum half and fly half (9&10) centre 3/4 and wing 3/4 (12, 13, 11, 14), fullback (15)

I don’t get it…

It’s just the old fashioned fractions terminology- half backs, three quarter backs, full back. It was the same or similar in French.
New Zealand split the backs slightly differently with a first and second five eighths at 10 and 12.

Point of order here: can someone explain to me what the logic behind the NZ terminology is? What on earth is a ‘five-eighth’? It’s never made any sense to me. Apart from anything else, there are 7 backs, not 8?

[Yr Alban]

Kinghorn will be 15 for the full Lions team with Keenan as back up. M Smith is pretty useless at 15, his positional play, tackling and decision making are all poor in that position. M Smith is a decent 10 but not as good as Russel or F Smith so will float around the squad and play to fill gaps when required. Daly is a safer bet for 15 but still bit flakey, he at least has a big boot on him.

Providing he survives the two matches that Toulouse potentially still have to play!
I think it's a lot closer between Keenan and Kinghorn than you seem to think.
Daly would be a good bench option for the test team covering 3 positions and was outstanding at 15 ffor Saracens when selected there for the season just gone.

Yeah 15 will be won or lost based on tour form (and fitness).

Kinghorn has the potential disadvantage that he can cover all of the back 3 positions and 10 at a push, which makes him a natural bench choice. He’s had a fantastic season at Toulouse and I really hope he gets the starting shirt, but this causes me concern.

[Biffer]

I don’t get it…

It’s just the old fashioned fractions terminology- half backs, three quarter backs, full back. It was the same or similar in French.
New Zealand split the backs slightly differently with a first and second five eighths at 10 and 12.

Point of order here: can someone explain to me what the logic behind the NZ terminology is? What on earth is a ‘five-eighth’? It’s never made any sense to me. Apart from anything else, there are 7 backs, not 8?

It's between half and three quarters. So your backs go half -> five eighths -> three quarters -> full.

[Biffer]

Providing he survives the two matches that Toulouse potentially still have to play!
I think it's a lot closer between Keenan and Kinghorn than you seem to think.
Daly would be a good bench option for the test team covering 3 positions and was outstanding at 15 ffor Saracens when selected there for the season just gone.

Yeah 15 will be won or lost based on tour form (and fitness).

Kinghorn has the potential disadvantage that he can cover all of the back 3 positions and 10 at a push, which makes him a natural bench choice. He’s had a fantastic season at Toulouse and I really hope he gets the starting shirt, but this causes me concern.

I've thought this from day one.

[Tichtheid]

I don’t get it…

It’s just the old fashioned fractions terminology- half backs, three quarter backs, full back. It was the same or similar in French.
New Zealand split the backs slightly differently with a first and second five eighths at 10 and 12.

Point of order here: can someone explain to me what the logic behind the NZ terminology is? What on earth is a ‘five-eighth’? It’s never made any sense to me. Apart from anything else, there are 7 backs, not 8?

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that the 5/8 is one out from 1/2, so they are more seen as running players than a fly half style "take and give or punt it" fly half.

At least that would make sense to me if that is the thinking - as I say, total guess work on my part, maybe Enzedder or others can help here?

[erictheodorecartman]

I found this on a reddit post:

The 1903 All Black captain, Jimmy Duncan, is credited with coining the name five-eighths when he decided to take a player from the forwards to add to the backs. The backs at that time consisted of two half-backs, three three-quarters, and a full-back. As the additional player stood between half-back and three-quarters, Duncan came up with the term five-eighths according to the fraction between them.

The player at five-eighths, also known as the five-eighth, could take the ball back to the forwards or pass it on to the three-quarters.

As the game of rugby union evolved, the two half-back positions acquired separate functions. The outside half-back, now known as the outhalf or fly-half, became the first five-eighths in New Zealand under the two five-eighths system. The next player on his outside was called the second five-eighths

[Kawazaki]

I really wish we would stop dicking M. Smith's international career around by picking him at 15.

If you don't think he's the best fly half, then stick him on the bench. An actual fullback will be better in the role.

He wouldn't get picked for the tour if he couldn't play 15 {however poorly). He's a way behind the Fins as a 10.

[Slick]

England stopped picking him there after he turned his back on a Wales attack (from a penalty) and allowed a try to be scored without any due attention from our last line of defence, and you can't really ever complain about being dropped for such incompetence, not reasonably

Kinghorn will be 15 for the full Lions team with Keenan as back up. M Smith is pretty useless at 15, his positional play, tackling and decision making are all poor in that position. M Smith is a decent 10 but not as good as Russel or F Smith so will float around the squad and play to fill gaps when required. Daly is a safer bet for 15 but still bit flakey, he at least has a big boot on him.

Providing he survives the two matches that Toulouse potentially still have to play!
I think it's a lot closer between Keenan and Kinghorn than you seem to think.
Daly would be a good bench option for the test team covering 3 positions and was outstanding at 15 ffor Saracens when selected there for the season just gone.

I think Keenan is in pole position really and has enough in the bank to make that fairly uncontroversial, much as I love watching Kinghorn. Have always thought Keenan was the most underrated player in the Irish team