NPR

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:29 pm**

P&O ferries sacked all 800 of the crew this afternoon having cancelled all sailings today.

Staff were told they were losing their jobs by video message, and then private security guards were sent to remove them from their ships.
The No 10 spokesperson said officials were in “urgent” talks to find out what the company’s plans were. He said that, if the company were planning to fire staff and then employ them again on worse terms - so-called “fire and rehire” - the government would be “dismayed”. He said:

Security staff were preparing to remove crew from ships in Dover and Larne, Belfast, after unions instructed crew not to leave vessels. Coaches carrying replacement agency staff – brought in from Colombia, according to reports in the French press – were reported to be standing by at Dover and Hull.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2 ... uncement

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:32 pm**

They're losing a fair few quid and thought this would be a good cost-saving - sacking permanent employees and bringing in poverty-wage temp workers.

Disgraceful.

They were re-bought by some middle-eastern outfit a few years back, so can't believe there's much - if any - engagement or interaction with unions.

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:34 pm**

And the government needs to be more than 'dismayed'.

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:39 pm**

inactionman wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:32 pm They're losing a fair few quid and thought this would be a good cost-saving - sacking permanent employees and bringing in poverty-wage temp workers.

Disgraceful.

They were re-bought by some middle-eastern outfit a few years back, so can't believe there's much - if any - engagement or interaction with unions.

Dubai owned and they also own 2 UK Freeports. Took a shitload of Covid money from the government as well whi hasn't been repayed

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:39 pm**

inactionman wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:34 pm And the government needs to be more than 'dismayed'.

Given the views of this Government towards industrial relations, I would have thought they'd be engorged at mass sackings in favour of dirt cheap labour. Profits and doubles all round!

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:42 pm**

Another Brexit Benefit !

An it'll make the NIP a lot easier to enforce, if NI businesses have no choice but to import, & export thru the ROI ports

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:50 pm**

Brexit?

Doesn’t Brexit limit immigration, so cheap Labour forces not as easy to substitute in.

Or is it all international employees and not at all related?

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:01 pm**

Ymx wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:50 pm Brexit?

Doesn’t Brexit limit immigration, so cheap Labour forces not as easy to substitute in.

Or is it all international employees and not at all related?

It just stops freedom of movement from the EU. It'll be interesting to hear where these Agency workers who're replacing the P&O crews are coming from, & what their contracts are. The Tories are doing their best to sound outraged, but this kind of shit doesn't happen without them previously hollowing out workers rights over years.

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:48 pm**

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:01 pm
Ymx wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:50 pm Brexit?

Doesn’t Brexit limit immigration, so cheap Labour forces not as easy to substitute in.

Or is it all international employees and not at all related?
It just stops freedom of movement from the EU. It'll be interesting to hear where these Agency workers who're replacing the P&O crews are coming from, & what their contracts are. The Tories are doing their best to sound outraged, but this kind of shit doesn't happen without them previously hollowing out workers rights over years.

The crew will be international and from many locations such is the maritime labour market. This is not a British issue, the only places that protect are US, Canada and Australia.

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:01 pm**

inactionman wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:34 pm And the government needs to be more than 'dismayed'.

Given that yesterday the Prime Minster met with the the ultimate owners of DP World (UAE Crown Prince) it's likely he new in advance this was going to happen

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:06 pm**

shaggy wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:48 pm
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:01 pm
Ymx wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:50 pm Brexit?

Doesn’t Brexit limit immigration, so cheap Labour forces not as easy to substitute in.

Or is it all international employees and not at all related?
It just stops freedom of movement from the EU. It'll be interesting to hear where these Agency workers who're replacing the P&O crews are coming from, & what their contracts are. The Tories are doing their best to sound outraged, but this kind of shit doesn't happen without them previously hollowing out workers rights over years.
The crew will be international and from many locations such is the maritime labour market. This is not a British issue, the only places that protect are US, Canada and Australia.

The UK controls what happens on UK flagged vessels !, & as these vessels are running routes under contracts, they also control the Ts & Cs.

It's a cop out to just throw your hands up in the air, & claim there's nothing the UK Government can do.

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:07 pm**

shaggy wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:48 pm
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:01 pm
Ymx wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:50 pm Brexit?

Doesn’t Brexit limit immigration, so cheap Labour forces not as easy to substitute in.

Or is it all international employees and not at all related?
It just stops freedom of movement from the EU. It'll be interesting to hear where these Agency workers who're replacing the P&O crews are coming from, & what their contracts are. The Tories are doing their best to sound outraged, but this kind of shit doesn't happen without them previously hollowing out workers rights over years.
The crew will be international and from many locations such is the maritime labour market. This is not a British issue, the only places that protect are US, Canada and Australia.

Yep. That’s kind of what I was wondering.

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:14 pm**

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:06 pm
shaggy wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:48 pm
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:01 pm

It just stops freedom of movement from the EU. It'll be interesting to hear where these Agency workers who're replacing the P&O crews are coming from, & what their contracts are. The Tories are doing their best to sound outraged, but this kind of shit doesn't happen without them previously hollowing out workers rights over years.
The crew will be international and from many locations such is the maritime labour market. This is not a British issue, the only places that protect are US, Canada and Australia.
The UK controls what happens on UK flagged vessels !, & as these vessels are running routes under contracts, they also control the Ts & Cs.

It's a cop out to just throw your hands up in the air, & claim there's nothing the UK Government can do.

Exactly. P&O is a British shipping company, as such they are obliged to notify the government if they are making redundancies over a certain number (I think it's 100)

The UK Gov says they have had no notification

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:58 pm**

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:01 pm
Ymx wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:50 pm Brexit?

Doesn’t Brexit limit immigration, so cheap Labour forces not as easy to substitute in.

Or is it all international employees and not at all related?
It just stops freedom of movement from the EU. It'll be interesting to hear where these Agency workers who're replacing the P&O crews are coming from, & what their contracts are. The Tories are doing their best to sound outraged, but this kind of shit doesn't happen without them previously hollowing out workers rights over years.

What workers rights have changed since the UK left the eu?

In any case it will end up in the law courts
https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights/consultation

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:07 pm**

Glaston wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:58 pm
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:01 pm
Ymx wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:50 pm Brexit?

Doesn’t Brexit limit immigration, so cheap Labour forces not as easy to substitute in.

Or is it all international employees and not at all related?
It just stops freedom of movement from the EU. It'll be interesting to hear where these Agency workers who're replacing the P&O crews are coming from, & what their contracts are. The Tories are doing their best to sound outraged, but this kind of shit doesn't happen without them previously hollowing out workers rights over years.
What workers rights have changed since the UK left the eu?

In any case it will end up in the law courts
https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights/consultation

Well the Court of last resort is now the UK Supreme court; the one the Tories want to either remove, or make judicial appointments purely political ....

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:37 pm**

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:14 pm
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:06 pm
shaggy wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:48 pm

The crew will be international and from many locations such is the maritime labour market. This is not a British issue, the only places that protect are US, Canada and Australia.
The UK controls what happens on UK flagged vessels !, & as these vessels are running routes under contracts, they also control the Ts & Cs.

It's a cop out to just throw your hands up in the air, & claim there's nothing the UK Government can do.

Exactly. P&O is a British shipping company, as such they are obliged to notify the government if they are making redundancies over a certain number (I think it's 100)

The UK Gov says they have had no notification

Are there alternative operators for the Scottish Isles ?

Ireland, & Dover are okay, because there are alternatives; but the Isles could be proper screwed if P&O just decide to go into Liquidation.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:13 am**

Glaston wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:58 pm
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:01 pm
Ymx wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:50 pm Brexit?

Doesn’t Brexit limit immigration, so cheap Labour forces not as easy to substitute in.

Or is it all international employees and not at all related?
It just stops freedom of movement from the EU. It'll be interesting to hear where these Agency workers who're replacing the P&O crews are coming from, & what their contracts are. The Tories are doing their best to sound outraged, but this kind of shit doesn't happen without them previously hollowing out workers rights over years.
What workers rights have changed since the UK left the eu?

In any case it will end up in the law courts
https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights/consultation

It's not a "Brexit has caused this" case (as some seem desperate to claim with explanation), but rather a possible demonstration of its futility - the RMT said we needed to leave the EU in order to prevent these job losses and in this manner. Well we've left over 2 years ago and it is the non-EU jobs currently culled, whilst those P&O staff in France and Netherlands have remained, potentially a result of the the stronger labour laws that aren't inhibited by the EU, as the RMT claimed they were.

Its political effort could have been expended on something useful to these P&O staff.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:32 am**

inactionman wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:32 pm They're losing a fair few quid and thought this would be a good cost-saving - sacking permanent employees and bringing in poverty-wage temp workers.

They'll be slaughtered for constructive dismissal.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:29 am**

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:37 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:14 pm
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:06 pm

The UK controls what happens on UK flagged vessels !, & as these vessels are running routes under contracts, they also control the Ts & Cs.

It's a cop out to just throw your hands up in the air, & claim there's nothing the UK Government can do.

Exactly. P&O is a British shipping company, as such they are obliged to notify the government if they are making redundancies over a certain number (I think it's 100)

The UK Gov says they have had no notification
Are there alternative operators for the Scottish Isles ?

Ireland, & Dover are okay, because there are alternatives; but the Isles could be proper screwed if P&O just decide to go into Liquidation.

Caledonian MacBrayne, or CalMac run the ferries to the Scottish islands

I think they are owned by the Scottish Government

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:08 am**

Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:29 am
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:37 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:14 pm

Exactly. P&O is a British shipping company, as such they are obliged to notify the government if they are making redundancies over a certain number (I think it's 100)

The UK Gov says they have had no notification
Are there alternative operators for the Scottish Isles ?

Ireland, & Dover are okay, because there are alternatives; but the Isles could be proper screwed if P&O just decide to go into Liquidation.

Caledonian MacBrayne, or CalMac run the ferries to the Scottish islands

I think they are owned by the Scottish Government

Given the low prices and the very old ferries I think that's a safe assumption.
As I understand it this is just part of P&O as well?

Utterly disgraceful stuff, you wonder how the execs slept last night pulling a tactic like this.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:36 am**

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:44 am**

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:46 am**

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:08 am
Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:29 am
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:37 pm

Are there alternative operators for the Scottish Isles ?

Ireland, & Dover are okay, because there are alternatives; but the Isles could be proper screwed if P&O just decide to go into Liquidation.

Caledonian MacBrayne, or CalMac run the ferries to the Scottish islands

I think they are owned by the Scottish Government
Given the low prices and the very old ferries I think that's a safe assumption.
As I understand it this is just part of P&O as well?

Utterly disgraceful stuff, you wonder how the execs slept last night pulling a tactic like this.

No, Scottish Government owned

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:48 am**

duke wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:46 am
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:08 am
Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:29 am

Caledonian MacBrayne, or CalMac run the ferries to the Scottish islands

I think they are owned by the Scottish Government
Given the low prices and the very old ferries I think that's a safe assumption.
As I understand it this is just part of P&O as well?

Utterly disgraceful stuff, you wonder how the execs slept last night pulling a tactic like this.
No, Scottish Government owned

Ah no, I meant the people being fired. Don't think it's all routes/cruises etc.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:56 am**

This seems more than just a cost cutting exercise by P&O and parent company DP World. DP World is hardly short of cash, they pay 2-3x more in golf sponsorship than savings they are making with this dodgy move. Looks like there might be some dodgy Russian politics involved in the background - the P&O issue is crippling channel crossings and freight movement. As PG Woodehouse would say 'wheels within wheels'.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:04 am**

dpedin wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:56 am This seems more than just a cost cutting exercise by P&O and parent company DP World. DP World is hardly short of cash, they pay 2-3x more in golf sponsorship than savings they are making with this dodgy move. Looks like there might be some dodgy Russian politics involved in the background - the P&O issue is crippling channel crossings and freight movement. As PG Woodehouse would say 'wheels within wheels'.

DP world don't make their money for golf sponsorship by allowing unprofitable businesses like P&O to continue as is. This is classic PE bloodsucking rather than any conspiracy.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:03 pm**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:32 am
inactionman wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:32 pm They're losing a fair few quid and thought this would be a good cost-saving - sacking permanent employees and bringing in poverty-wage temp workers.
They'll be slaughtered for constructive dismissal.

Well if they have been made redundant, legally their positions no longer exist in the organisation so P&O cannot rehire to the same positions for 6 months.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:07 pm**

Insane_Homer wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:44 am

Britannia Unchained at last!

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:22 pm**

To pick up a couple of points made on the thread, it is years since I retired, but back then someone could not be made redundant if the job continued to exist, which appears to be the case here since they are rehiring. Similarly, redundancies on this scale could not be made without prior consultations.

So how is this possible?

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:26 pm**

You're a fucking goose if you sign up for that shit anyway.

2 or 3 days is as much as I can stand being told what to do at certain points during the day.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:41 pm**

weegie01 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:22 pm To pick up a couple of points made on the thread, it is years since I retired, but back then someone could not be made redundant if the job continued to exist, which appears to be the case here since they are rehiring. Similarly, redundancies on this scale could not be made without prior consultations.

So how is this possible?

P&O’s actions are almost certainly illegal, so the short answer is it’s not possible under UK law. But as we all know, lots of businesses regularly ignore employment law.

The main unions involved are obtaining legal advice, and I expect this will end up in Court. Whether that will help employees get their jobs back remains to be seen.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:43 pm**

weegie01 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:22 pm To pick up a couple of points made on the thread, it is years since I retired, but back then someone could not be made redundant if the job continued to exist, which appears to be the case here since they are rehiring. Similarly, redundancies on this scale could not be made without prior consultations.

So how is this possible?

It does seem to go against most of the employment law I'm familiar with. I'm not exactly sure how a corporate restructure works in the context of ships' crew - I can't believe a pilot is now a redundant role.

Think there's some mileage in rumours of external shenanigans, as I'd hope this would generate a nuclear response through which both P&O and the parent company would get fingers badly burnt.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:50 pm**

From what I've heard and read, they haven't made any positions redundant. They've just binned everyone en-masse. Disgraceful and if UK employment law applies, totally in contravention of it. Unfair dismissal (rather than constructive as another poster suggested). However, it will depend on whether P&O have somehow structured their contracts under different jurisdiction than E&W.

Just like how Britannia Hotels binned a load of staff when Covid hit and re-hired cheaper ones on zero hours contracts - I won't be using P&O again and I don't stay in Britannia hotels. We have to vote with our feet on shit like this.

And I say that as a capitalist!

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:11 pm**

pjm1 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:50 pm From what I've heard and read, they haven't made any positions redundant. They've just binned everyone en-masse. Disgraceful and if UK employment law applies, totally in contravention of it. Unfair dismissal (rather than constructive as another poster suggested). However, it will depend on whether P&O have somehow structured their contracts under different jurisdiction than E&W.

Just like how Britannia Hotels binned a load of staff when Covid hit and re-hired cheaper ones on zero hours contracts - I won't be using P&O again and I don't stay in Britannia hotels. We have to vote with our feet on shit like this.

And I say that as a capitalist!

100% this, fuck both of them, and spoons too

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:52 pm**

There's no way the Government knew nothing of this.

It'll take a few days, but I'm sure someone in the CS will leak ,a letter, or whatever, but we've all seen how long it took the Home Office to issue 800 visas, with the entire CS helping them !

It also shows the vaunted, Points Based Immigration system for the fraud it is, because there's no way that a large number of this people are earning the ~£35k minimum wage.

P&O had everything setup & ready to go simultaneously; down to the hired thugs to throw the unsurprisingly pissed off staff off the ferries.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:06 pm**

The government have responded by sending strongly worded letters to the P&O chairman...

.... Who resigned last year

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:11 pm**

Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:29 am
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:37 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:14 pm

Exactly. P&O is a British shipping company, as such they are obliged to notify the government if they are making redundancies over a certain number (I think it's 100)

The UK Gov says they have had no notification
Are there alternative operators for the Scottish Isles ?

Ireland, & Dover are okay, because there are alternatives; but the Isles could be proper screwed if P&O just decide to go into Liquidation.

Caledonian MacBrayne, or CalMac run the ferries to the Scottish islands

I think they are owned by the Scottish Government

They are, and they are an absolute disgrace

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:48 pm**

Slick wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:11 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:29 am
fishfoodie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:37 pm

Are there alternative operators for the Scottish Isles ?

Ireland, & Dover are okay, because there are alternatives; but the Isles could be proper screwed if P&O just decide to go into Liquidation.

Caledonian MacBrayne, or CalMac run the ferries to the Scottish islands

I think they are owned by the Scottish Government
They are, and they are an absolute disgrace

Tell me your complaints and I'll ask my mate who captains one of the ferries.

He might well agree with you.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:56 pm**

I like neeps wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:06 pm
The government have responded by sending strongly worded letters to the P&O chairman...

.... Who resigned last year

So now we know when the Chairman knew of this plan .... so it would be good if there was an urgent question from say the SNP, to
ask the Pritster if her Ministry was aware that when it issued these Visas, that they were replacing all the existing crews

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:35 pm**

Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:48 pm
Slick wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:11 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:29 am

Caledonian MacBrayne, or CalMac run the ferries to the Scottish islands

I think they are owned by the Scottish Government
They are, and they are an absolute disgrace

Tell me your complaints and I'll ask my mate who captains one of the ferries.

He might well agree with you.

Well the main one being it is an ageing fleet that isn’t being replaced due to incompetence leading to huge cuts in the service on a daily basis.

The state owned shipyards that are meant to build the state owned ferries are so badly run that the newest ones are being built in Turkey.

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